Return to Gambits (SK Win!)

[Nocmen]

You seem too afraid and cautious to go be wrong on someone you call scum, when it's day 1, and cases on people have to start somewhere. I will have to read this previous game that vezok mentioned though, and compare to your actions so far, as much as I hate basing cases on meta.

Please read the newbie game as well. I think it'll explain my "afraid to outright call people scum relentlessly on D-1" mindset I have now. Plus I'm not exactly sure how that might work as evidence since there's two scum-factions that are also hunting each other. At least, I think they would.

But it still doesn't negate the fact that scum want to be more open and more cautious, which you are both. Hell, I know some people see recklessness (up to a point) as a town tell here.

Also, While I may accept meta as a reason for an attack, I don't like it as a defense, especialyl as a self defense, after you mention how you've evolved your playstyle in games. You were much more reckless in your newbie game, but why should that stop you if you are town? The cautionness you demonstrate here really pins you as scum to me.

[Empking]

Vote Count 9

Cobblerfone (2) - earworm, Nocmen
DeityKabuto
TheJakalope (1) - CryMeARiver
Nocmen
TheMask
Monk
Surye (1) - TheMask,
CryMeARiver (1) - Surye
jilynne1991 (2) - sorasgoof, Sathoris
vezokprika
Sathoris
earworm (1) - Ironhead
C-Worl (2) - vezokprika, Wredfar
Wredfar (1) - Monk
Ironhead
sorasgoof

Note Voting: DeityKabuto, TheJakalope, C-Worl, jilynne1991, Cobblerfone

With 16 alive, its 9 to lynch.

[Cobblerfone]

Also, While I may accept meta as a reason for an attack, I don't like it as a defense, especialyl as a self defense, after you mention how you've evolved your playstyle in games. You were much more reckless in your newbie game, but why should that stop you if you are town? The cautionness you demonstrate here really pins you as scum to me.

I agree with recklessness as being more townish. But my recklessness has made several people think I'm scum on D-1 (though I haven't lynched in my five games). AND it makes me inconfident in my own reads when I have to back out of them like in my newbie game. So, I've changed to being a poker, if you will. I'm questioning things that catch my eye and waiting for the responses with the hope of starting conversations. I've lost faith in most scumtells and perhaps even scumtells as a concept, so I'm changing it up a bit. I'm planning on this mostly being a D-1 strategy.

You were right when you said that scumhunting had to start somewhere. And for me, it's starting with these questions and conversations. By the way this has been quite productive for me. I'm back on you being town.

I concur with Sathoris that earworm's "statistic" isn't vote-worthy. Particularly because he's new. But he's still on my watchlist.

I have one question to Cobbler: Do you still think an MC would be a good strategy today?

No. I might think about it a bit more though. At the very least to try to see what Surye sees.

earworm:

1. Out of all of the scum only the traitor would post something like that to communicate to their buddies who they thought was a good target. But CMAR was the leading wagon at the time so... I could've just jumped on with my actual half-belief that he's the traitor as an excuse. (A bit WIFOMy, sure. still sub-optimal play otherwise.)

2. I was voting on a lead with the purpose of continuing the conversation.

3. Well with three hypothetical cop-claims what would

you

do?

[monk]

Question to monk:

Reasons on your scum reads, please. I also would like the three people you are most convinced are town.

The reasons for my scum reads are little to no substantial interaction with the thread. My three towniest reads are jilynne, earworm and cobblerfone

[monk]

EBWOP: (also I couldn't find it :/)

1. Out of all of the scum only the traitor would post something like that to communicate to their buddies who they thought was a good target. But CMAR was the leading wagon at the time so... I could've just jumped on with my actual half-belief that he's the traitor as an excuse. (A bit WIFOMy, sure. still sub-optimal play otherwise.)

I know this was posed to earworm but I think this question is interesting, what are your reasons for wanting to find the traitor above any other mafia, or is this in addition to the other mafia?

[Cobblerfone]

I know this was posed to earworm but I think this question is interesting, what are your reasons for wanting to find the traitor above any other mafia, or is this in addition to the other mafia?

Where did I indicate wanting to find the traitor above the other scum? To me, finding the traitor is secondary, especially on day one.

My numbered points are counters to his three reasons for voting me. I was refering to how he found my post supsicious by "outing CMAR" when of all the scum only the traitor would try to do anything like that as they don't have a NK to deal with PR suspects. But at the same time, there's no reason for the traitor to do that if their suspected PR was already the lead wagon. Now, this is just me trying to extrapolate earworm's argument and I don't even know if "outing CMAR" was his reason since he didn't exactly say it in so many words. But I digress.

[earworm]

earworm:

1. Out of all of the scum only the traitor would post something like that to communicate to their buddies who they thought was a good target. But CMAR was the leading wagon at the time so... I could've just jumped on with my actual half-belief that he's the traitor as an excuse. (A bit WIFOMy, sure. still sub-optimal play otherwise.)

2. I was voting on a lead with the purpose of continuing the conversation.

3. Well with three hypothetical cop-claims what would

you

do?

1. Your post smells of rolefish. That's why I didn't like it
2. It's mainly your reasoning. It's poorly thought out. All the info was there before you asked any questions if I remember.
3. 2 situations.

-1- we get a cop claim today. NO CC's. We lynch someone else and wait for tommorrow. ALL COPS SELF INVESTIGATE. We ask him his sanity. Ask if anybody wants to cc his sanity. If yes we keep our eyes on the two of them and continue to ask them for results. If the scum kills the cop, scum dies next day.

-2- we get a cop claim tomorrow or any other following day. at this point every cop should know their sanity. so thtey claim sanity. ask if anyone wants to cc sanity. continues same as before.

the only way we get 3 cops claiming at the same time is if the sk claims, which is highly unlikely.

[vezokpiraka]

unvote
vote cobblerfone

You're scum here sorry.

[DeityKabuto]

Vote Cobblerfone

The wagon for the day.

[Sathoris]

But it still doesn't negate the fact that scum want to be more open and more cautious, which you are both. Hell, I know some people see recklessness (up to a point) as a town tell here.

Also, While I may accept meta as a reason for an attack, I don't like it as a defense, especialyl as a self defense, after you mention how you've evolved your playstyle in games. You were much more reckless in your newbie game, but why should that stop you if you are town? The cautionness you demonstrate here really pins you as scum to me.

That's basicly the same sort of thing I was wrestling with. Couples with:

I have one question to Cobbler: Do you still think an MC would be a good strategy today?

No. I might think about it a bit more though. At the very least to try to see what Surye sees.

Your discussion with Surye evolved into a point where you didn't discuss the cons or pros of MC but about 'scumhunting' to a point. You didn't waver your beliefs about MC. Infact your posts supported MC all the way, yet now you change your mind without any reason. Makes me think you still like to MC, but you're playing more cautious to avoid the backdraft of getting caught for the wrong reasons.

A bit of a stretch, but coupled with the other stuff I find about you, you're my front runner for today's lynch. UNVOTE: VOTE: Cobbler

No point voting Jyl when she's v/la for the weekend.

[Cobblerfone]

Your discussion with Surye evolved into a point where you didn't discuss the cons or pros of MC but about 'scumhunting' to a point.

My discussion with Surye was about why he brought up his reason against MC instead of a more standard reason.

the only way we get 3 cops claiming at the same time is if the sk claims, which is highly unlikely.

That was the whole point of Surye's hypothetical scenario. 3 cops, 2 vigs. You can't go around and turn it into something else. Speaking of which, how do you know only the Serial Killer would claim?

VOTE: earworm

[Sathoris]

My discussion with Surye was about why he brought up his reason against MC instead of a more standard reason.

Which changed your view on him. You changed votes on him more than once. You didn't advocate for an MC anymore, you simply reacted on his posts. How is that not figuring out someone'sa llignement.

[Cobblerfone]

1. Your post smells of rolefish. That's why I didn't like it

Rolefish? CMAR was the leading wagon. I was eplaining why I didn't think he should be lynched today.

2. It's mainly your reasoning. It's poorly thought out. All the info was there before you asked any questions if I remember.

I'm not even sure what this means. My vote was a punctuation. "if you remember"? Why not look at it.

Which changed your view on him. You changed votes on him more than once. You didn't advocate for an MC anymore, you simply reacted on his posts. How is that not figuring out someone'sa llignement.

I'm not really sure I'm following you here. How is that scummy? Or was that an unrelated point that you just put in your post?

[Sathoris]

I'm not really sure I'm following you here. How is that scummy? Or was that an unrelated point that you just put in your post?

My point was rather elaborate. But it was that you're not playing more cautious (demonstrated by not being in favor of an MC anymore) Even though you gave no such indication that you were against an MC. You were evey discussing it with Surye which wondered off.

You gave no reason why you're not in favor of an MC anymore. Why is that?

[DeityKabuto]

What is you're opinion now of the mass claim option, ironhead?

Mine is, if we want to mass claim ever, today is the only day that it'll be feasible. But after thinking about it, a middle-of-the-road approach might be better.

The only two options seem to be, "mass claim today" or "take all claims later on with a huge grain of salt".

Wrong, Mason claim in D1 = Never. When their are less players say, 6-10 and their aren't really any scumtells, Mason claims are more reasonable.

[Cobblerfone]

You gave no reason why you're not in favor of an MC anymore. Why is that?

If you check my post right after I "voted" for a MC you'll see I started to realize a MC might not be as hot I thought. Basically, now it's because any advantages of a MC (Preventing scum from claiming PRs on later days) can be gotten through other methods. (such as not trusting any PR claim.)

[earworm]

DEITYKABUTO (same goes to Vezo): GET YOUR HEAD IN THE GAME. That is all.

the only way we get 3 cops claiming at the same time is if the sk claims, which is highly unlikely.

That was the whole point of Surye's hypothetical scenario. 3 cops, 2 vigs. You can't go around and turn it into something else. Speaking of which, how do you know only the Serial Killer would claim?

VOTE: earworm

And I'm saying that unless the SK claims we won't have 3 cops claim and therefore the problem is resolved. That's how you handle the situation. No lynching cops. You shoot down the hypothetical and propose a real solution.

SKs don't like to claim cops. It's too dangerous since they don't know the alignment of anyone else. I.E. It's too easy to mess up fake results.

Are you voting me because I said that only the SK would claim? If so you need to work on your reading comprehension.

[Nocmen]

the only way we get 3 cops claiming at the same time is if the sk claims, which is highly unlikely.

You said that pretty exactly....Please, tell me why only the SK would claim cop, and not scum? The level of detail is a bit too specific for your scenarios, which kind of bothers me.

FoS: earworm

[earworm]

>.<

...Maybe I'm not being clear enough.

I'm saying that mafia would be more likely than the SK to claim cop.

Which is true. The only way an SK to win is to survive to endgame. Claiming cop is a good way to reduce that chance to next too nil.

[C-Worl]

Been busy. Sorry for inactivity.

[Nocmen]

>.<

...Maybe I'm not being clear enough.

I'm saying that mafia would be more likely than the SK to claim cop.

Which is true. The only way an SK to win is to survive to endgame. Claiming cop is a good way to reduce that chance to next too nil.

If you were clear, you're now being contradicting. Now scum would be more likely?

[earworm]

>.<

...Maybe I'm not being clear enough.

I'm saying that mafia would be more likely than the SK to claim cop.

Which is true. The only way an SK to win is to survive to endgame. Claiming cop is a good way to reduce that chance to next too nil.

If you were clear, you're now being contradicting. Now scum would be more likely?

Show me where I have contradicted myself and how.

[The Mask]

I don't need to catch up. Stop saying that. @Surye: I saw no saving value to it. Something I missed? @ears: I was thinking it over. Why would my timing matter?

[Nocmen]

Okay, so there are 2 cops. Both would claim cop if it was made today, which the MC isn't happening. However, you at first said the only way for a third claim(fake claim) would be the chance that the SK claims cop. And now you're saying that mafia would be more likely to claim than the sk? Which is it? That's the contradiction.

[sorasgoof]

I got sidetracked while catching up yesterday, so let me go ahead and start again. I'll post my thoughts as I read from post 80.

*Don't see anything of real interest on page 4

Post 103 (jilynne1991): ...what was that about?
Post 105 (Surye): The point is that you answered a question directed towards another player. Effectively, you ruined a decent reaction test. Don't answer questions for other players. Also, you call CMAR "not protown" for discouraging questioning, but that's not what he was doing at all.
Post 107 (Nocmen): Horrible. That post you quoted wasn't WIFOM at all. Even if it were WIFOM, I don't like the way you tried to present it. "Not too important, but I need to point out the use of WIFOM this early." Okay, why? Do you think it's scummy? You're trying to spread suspicion around subtly.
Post 108 (earworm): Ha. Earworm sees the fallacies of post 107.
Post 115 (Nocmen): Jil's interactions with Vezo are null at best, in my opinion.
Post 116 (vezokpiraka): >_>
Post 121 (Ironhead): I really like this post by Ironhead. Just got a strong town vibe here.
Post 125 (vezokpiraka): I lol'ed.
Post 131 (Surye): I also like this post. A list of reads with REASONS.
Post 136 (The Mask): Don't like the Surye vote.
Post 138 (C-Worl): I think I saw what CMAR saw, but I'll keep it to myself. However, why do you think CMAR is townish? What has he done to make you think he's town? You just said you haven't seen him do anything scummy, but that doesn't make him town either.
Post 141 (jilynne1991): I've already said I don't like this, with reasoning and questions.
Post 143 (jilynne1991): What is this? Nobody had cursed in quite a few posts. Also, did you forget your outburst in post 103?
Post 145 (Ironhead): Gladly.
Post 153 (Ironhead):

What's RQS?

>_>
Post 154 (Cobblerfone): Niiiice excuse for not placing a vote. You don't need to wait for other people to start placing votes.
Post 157 (wredfar): First I've seen of Wredfar. Already don't like the posting. You give no new reasoning whatsoever. You basically just copied Surye's reasoning.
Post 163 (DeityKabuto): Good, good. Somebody else saw what I see.
Post 164 (Cobblerfone): Cobbler also sees how bad post 157 was. However, I don't agree with any of your reads and you have no scum reads. Bad.
Post 167 (Surye): I agree.
*Arguments between Cobbler and Surye
Post 174 (Nocmen): That's not a case, and even if it were, someone else already brought it up.
Post 189 (Cobblerfone): Still don't like how you don't have any scum reads, even though you sort of explain why.
Post 190 (monk): Another bad list. No reasoning for anything
Post 199 (Sathoris): I agreed with most of your list until your vote. What about monk's list in post 190? Why did you vote for Jil when monk also posted a list with no reasoning? I realize I did this as well, but I hadn't read that far into the thread.
Post 207 (vezokpiraka): Okay, you saw enough through Cobbler's interactions with other players to vote him. However, ...
Post 208 (DeityKabuto): ...this is a horrible vote. Almost wipes out all town cred I had personally given Deity.
Post 220 (Nocmen): I feel like you're intentionally not understanding earworm. >_>

VOTE: Nocmen

Okay, I'm done. I got the worst overall vibes from Nocmen, though several others are close behind. After a while, perhaps, I'll sum up my reads in a list (with reasoning, of course) and do a wagon analysis. The latter might have to wait until Day 2, though.