Mini 1152~Over!

[Me=Weird]

Prodding kanyeknowsbest.

votecount

Occult(3): Internet Stranger, Empking, kanyeknowsbest
Internet Stranger(1): vollkan
kanyeknowsbest(1): Occult
Not Voting(2): The Rufflig, Jeromus

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.
Day 4 deadline is on June 1st, in (expired on 2011-06-01 17:10:00)

[Occult]

Well if no one has anything else to say, we are nearing the lynch deadline. It's obvious that I would support either a kanye (yeezy, for jero.) or IS lynch, but it is nice to see kanye has gone into hiding and our masons haven't seemed to take a real stance...

[vollkan]

You are also in no way "cleared" it just so happens that, even though your explanations are flawed, WIFOMy and hypocritical, you at least have explanations. Kanye on the other hand, does not and hasn't throughout the game. The ones he does faintly mention change quite rapidly at the drop of a hat, with no reasoning behind it. You want someone sitting in back of the bus silently you need not look any further then Kanye. I also find it notable that volkan had very little to say in response to anything brought up about yeezy, as he has been quite vocal all game.

I didn't respond first up because I didn't want to defend Kanye pre-emptorily. I didn't see the case that he has been changing his opinions on the turn of a dime. For McG, he declared his suspicion (albeit without reasons) a number of times on D1.

In re-reading to verify this, though, I think I have found something that nobody has brought up yet which I think merits

Kanye+7

.:

Yikes. Well at least something is happening in this game now. I've reread the thread and I probably have been tunneling Hez harder than I should have. A few days ago I could have supported the wagon building up against IS, but he has finally given me what I wanted, details and reasoning behind why he thinks RBT is clearly scum. I thought there was a chance that he and Empking were scum previously, but I don't feel that way about IS anymore. I am suspicious of how quickly the votes are piling up on him, especially since one of my prime suspects (McGriddle) is now on his wagon. It feels like a scum reaction to how close the RBT wagon is getting to completion.

As a result, I feel comfortable in doing this now:
Unvote, Vote: Riceballtail

He had attacked McG beforehand, so the "prime suspect" thing is not scummy in my view. The bigger problem is that his mindset on RBT, from this post and those preceding it, makes absolutely no sense. The above could only be a justification for voting RBT if you thought that:
1) Both McG and RBT were scum together; and
2) That RBT was scummier than McG.

Now, he states in the very next post that he thought McG was scummier, but that his belief in a "scum reaction" to RBT and the points brought up against RBT make him happy with it. Sheeping on the points against RBT is annoying, but I'm reluctant to call it scummy. The big problem here is that the so-called "scum reaction" couldn't be anything other than McG's reaction; in other words, far from the "scum reaction" being a reason to lynch RBT, it would only stregntehn the case for lynching McG (since McG's flip would basically confirm or refute a big chunk of Kanye's case on RBT). There's no rational town motivation that would make such a post, but it makes perfect sense for scum (either as a bus or just as trying to push a wagon).

Going back in time of course we have nothing indicating any suspicion of RBT, which only makes it more strange that Kanye's conclusion would be McG+RBT are scum together.

[The Rufflig]

I would still prefer an IS lynch over Kanye.
VOTE: Internet Stranger

[Internet Stranger]

Why?

[kanyeknowsbest]

I'm voting for darkdude because hes the only person that I can actually convince myself I would be happy voting for. Right now I see IS and Empking as solidly town. I believe the claim so I see Rufflig and Jeromus as town. That leaves me with Occult and Volkan as my mafia candidates,

but until this point I felt very town about Occult

. I did previously have Volkan as my idea for the other mafia, but I have read his iso several times to try and construct a case but I can't find anything damning besides his focusing of points onto people he wanted to lynch. I did say that I would rather lynch mafia, but I believe I also made it clear that I would be content to lynch wolf if we could not be extremely certain about our mafia candidate. I am not certain about a mafia candidate and darkdude isn't in danger of being quick lynched so I am happy with my vote where it is. I don't believe I am being inconsistent.

He had not particularly mentioned me before, but I am apparently town yesterday and volkan is his other mafia. This is a buss of volkan and let's see if that opinion changes D4 without explaination.

I hadn't mentioned you before

because

I felt you had been town before that point. This post was my way of saying that I needed to reconsider that position. How is it scummy at all to reevaluate your position on things in the game after flips/claims?

D4, first post out of the gate Occult is scum, not a mention of why he changed his opinion, just that Occult is scum and he's forgotten about volk.

Because there is no support for a vollkan lynch at this point. I learned my lesson day 1 with Hez. Speaking of Hez, you are right. I dropped my suspicions of him day 2 without explaining why, except for a simple post where I said that I was considering that I was tunneling him too hard. At the time, I did not want to derail things by making a post unrelated to where the game currently was by saying "By the way guys, I redid my reads and I don't think he's scum anymore!" Then he died and it didn't matter.

Him and volkan bitch-fighting each other, this will never evolve into real attacks.

I voted him and stated why I thought he was scum. I guess thats not a real attack.

[/quote]

Also I have to disagree with your cheerleading point. The only interaction between vollkan and Occult all game has been Occult criticizing vollkan's system and vollkan briefly replying.

Defends Volk the very next post.[/quote]
Or maybe I want to dismiss nonexistent points so people don't get tripped up on them later when we are trying to get him lynched?

The rest of your points are fabricated or garbage or amount to "he changes his opinions as the game progresses."

[kanyeknowsbest]

He had attacked McG beforehand, so the "prime suspect" thing is not scummy in my view. The bigger problem is that his mindset on RBT, from this post and those preceding it, makes absolutely no sense. The above could only be a justification for voting RBT if you thought that:
1) Both McG and RBT were scum together; and
2) That RBT was scummier than McG.

Now, he states in the very next post that he thought McG was scummier, but that his belief in a "scum reaction" to RBT and the points brought up against RBT make him happy with it. Sheeping on the points against RBT is annoying, but I'm reluctant to call it scummy. The big problem here is that the so-called "scum reaction" couldn't be anything other than McG's reaction; in other words, far from the "scum reaction" being a reason to lynch RBT, it would only stregntehn the case for lynching McG (since McG's flip would basically confirm or refute a big chunk of Kanye's case on RBT). There's no rational town motivation that would make such a post, but it makes perfect sense for scum (either as a bus or just as trying to push a wagon).

Going back in time of course we have nothing indicating any suspicion of RBT, which only makes it more strange that Kanye's conclusion would be McG+RBT are scum together.

The scum reaction was more than just McG. At this point we can say that it was indeed a wagon without scum, but at the time with how quickly the wagon went from just darkdude to L-2, I felt that there was at least two scum on that wagon. Additionally, I was way more in favor of a RBT lynch than an IS lynch. I felt that if we didn't push the RBT lynch harder then the possibility of scum pushing the IS wagon through was a real possibility.

[vollkan]

He had attacked McG beforehand, so the "prime suspect" thing is not scummy in my view. The bigger problem is that his mindset on RBT, from this post and those preceding it, makes absolutely no sense. The above could only be a justification for voting RBT if you thought that:
1) Both McG and RBT were scum together; and
2) That RBT was scummier than McG.

Now, he states in the very next post that he thought McG was scummier, but that his belief in a "scum reaction" to RBT and the points brought up against RBT make him happy with it. Sheeping on the points against RBT is annoying, but I'm reluctant to call it scummy. The big problem here is that the so-called "scum reaction" couldn't be anything other than McG's reaction; in other words, far from the "scum reaction" being a reason to lynch RBT, it would only stregntehn the case for lynching McG (since McG's flip would basically confirm or refute a big chunk of Kanye's case on RBT). There's no rational town motivation that would make such a post, but it makes perfect sense for scum (either as a bus or just as trying to push a wagon).

Going back in time of course we have nothing indicating any suspicion of RBT, which only makes it more strange that Kanye's conclusion would be McG+RBT are scum together.

The scum reaction was more than just McG. At this point we can say that it was indeed a wagon without scum, but at the time with how quickly the wagon went from just darkdude to L-2, I felt that there was at least two scum on that wagon. Additionally, I was way more in favor of a RBT lynch than an IS lynch. I felt that if we didn't push the RBT lynch harder then the possibility of scum pushing the IS wagon through was a real possibility.

That only really dances round the central issue of why you weren't pushing McG more strongly than RBT. I can understand that, if you thought IS much was less scummy than RBT, you'd want RBT as a compromise (given that a McG lynch looked unlikely), but nothing suggested that you were only pushing RBT as a compromise.

[Occult]

I would still prefer an IS lynch over Kanye.
VOTE: Internet Stranger

Since I don't believe a no lynch doesn't get us anywhere I'm going to leave the choice to the omnipresent jeromus

Unvote, vote IS

both me and IS are L-1, deadline is coming and you are going to need to actually take a stance or put us in NL for the second night in a row.

I

also

await Jeromus' post with baited breathe.

[Internet Stranger]

I just want to point out that no one has made a standing offensive argument against me. What I mean is that all that Occult has said has been in defense and rebuttal. But no one else has made a standard "case" on me yet.

I think that it would be fair if that was done on my behalf. I would hate be townie lynched based on reputation and style at all and not due to my actions, which I firmly believe to be pro-town. That's my own biased opinion of course. Please make your own observations before voting me. (Occult obviously is the exception, he HAS to vote for me).

[vollkan]

I just want to point out that no one has made a standing offensive argument against me. What I mean is that all that Occult has said has been in defense and rebuttal. But no one else has made a standard "case" on me yet.

Every reason I have for finding you scummy is conveniently prefaced by the letters "IS+"

If you go to my ISO and search "IS+" you can scroll through them.

[The Rufflig]

Why? Where should I start?

Day 1: Missed the fake mason claim which implies skimming the thread instead of reading it. You came out with a strong stance against lurkers in general but made an explicit exception for Empking. That exception being that Empking would become less useless later on or become obvious scum.
Well, Empking hasn't become less useless, but you're still ignoring him. Secondly, you didn't cut McGriddle any slack with his claim that he was bad early on and got better later.
Oh, and let's not forget our little scuffle either. You apparently thought I was scummy for "bandwagon jumping, rbt protection, lack of reasoning, falsifying history, meta bullshit and loaded questions". That's an awful lot of reasons to vote for me, don't you think? Where was your vote? On RBT - your case on whom was lurking and refusing to participate.
I didn't spend all my time on you or arguing back and forth with you with walls of text, but you used that as further proof that I was scummy.

Day 2: You voted McGriddle because he jumped on your wagon without reasoning. According to you, I had done the same and you had a lot of other stuff on me too. So your vote didn't go to me? You weren't being honest with your reads - you just wanted to go for the easy mislynch (third vote on the wagon early in the day). To the case on me, you added my interactions with kanye - but you didn't explain what about them was scummy (I believe you ignored the question I asked at the time about what was scummy about my interaction with Kanye).

Day 3: Oh hey - I finally get a vote from you. And it was piled on top of Empking's vote again. We argued quite a bit this day. I don't see a need to repeat it. I will point out that mafia hunting was in the best interest this day and you did not support it. Yeah , I know: you don't care about the math.

The only thing I really have to add at this point is your constant below-the-belt snipes you keep taking at me. You're trying to keep the option of mislynching a mason on the table.
----

By the way, Jeromus, there is a third choice for a lynch today and that is Kanye - but you'll need to speak up on that option very soon so there is enough time for votes to switch back over.

[Empking]

You apparently thought I was scummy for "bandwagon jumping, rbt protection, lack of reasoning, falsifying history, meta bullshit and loaded questions". That's an awful lot of reasons to vote for me, don't you think? Where was your vote? On RBT - your case on whom was lurking and refusing to participate.

You're suspicious of IS for being right? Do you think he's a wolf (In which case all that Empking stuff was fluff) or Mafia in which case I fail to see why him being a better scumhunter than you is suspicious.

[jeromus]

I think that it would be fair if that was done on my behalf. I would hate be townie lynched based on reputation and style at all and not due to my actions, which I firmly believe to be pro-town. That's my own biased opinion of course. Please make your own observations before voting me. (Occult obviously is the exception, he HAS to vote for me).

Your reputation and style come of your actions. You're inconsistent, good sir. You've been friggin' INTENSE the whole game, but the second a serious bandwagon built up on you, you curled up in a ball and started talkin' all modest. I didn't ask you to stop with your playstyle with my previous points - I just pointed out how it was focussed a lot on "I'M TOWNIE AND I THINK THIS PERSON IS SCUM SO THIS PERSON IS SCUM". Honestly, I was just suspicious until the SECOND it seemed like we were actually onto you (DD D1 doesn't count, that was a silly bandwagon - Pride swallowed) you changed your style entirely. I was suspicious, now I'm friggin' sure you're scum.

I'm also finding Occult rather scummy, in an 'under the radar' sorta way.
Empking, I seriously want to be scum because he annoys me so much, but I've made that mistake with McGriddle in a previous game - So one must be certain.
Rufflig - ILU BUDDY.
Kanye - I feel like you've just...not been in the game - Also in a scummy way - But 'tis my gut feeling, I've little to back it up. Right now, we've got a deadline to beat.

Vote: Internet Stranger

*Crosses fingers*

[Empking]

Jeromus: Occult is clearly scum ( doeas

anybody

think otherwise?) . You're just letting him quickhammer.

[The Rufflig]

I think otherwise - also, Jeromus hammered Internet Stranger.

So, Internet Stranger, anything else to say?

[Internet Stranger]

What exactly were you hoping I did Jeromus? Lash out at everyone and call them idiots? Assume that EVERYONE is scum? I went after DD and Occult. Did you want me to call you scum too? I pointed out that the scum is likely to be amongst the last 4 (obviously) Occult, Vollkan, Empking, Kanye.

Jeromus, you were too easily misled. I was cringing when you were manipulated into making the last vote. Even now youre HOPING you were right. You didnt even let me put on a last ditch defense on Ruffligs horrible points. I mean, he is twisting me catching a FUCKING WEREWOLF as scummy? Really? Youre so ingrained into this pseudo-mason lovefest that you completely glossed over that.

[Empking]

Are you sure that's a lynch?

[Me=Weird]

votecount

Occult(3): Internet Stranger, Empking, kanyeknowsbest
Internet Stranger(1): vollkan, The Rufflig, Occult, Jeromus

A lynch has been achieved.
Night 4 deadline is on June 2nd, in (expired on 2011-06-02 14:37:00)

Internet Stranger,

Mafia Goon,

lynched Day 4.

[Me=Weird]

Empking,

Town Citizen,

killed Night 4.
kanyeknowsbest,

Town Citizen,

killed Night 4.

votecount

Not Voting(4): Jeromus, The Rufflig, vollkan, Occult

With 4 alive, it's 3 to lynch.
Day 5 deadline is June 17th, in (expired on 2011-06-17 20:14:00)

[kanyeknowsbest]

r.ip. me you will be missed.

[vollkan]

Occult, the best we can both hope for at this point is a draw between us. Which means that we have to get to a point where it is only the two of us alive. But there's no way to do that without cooperating, which I know that neither of us is going to be particularly willing to do.

In short, we're stuck in a a classic case of the Prisoner's Dilemma. If we cooperate, we draw. If one of us cheats the other, the cheater wins - but if we both cheat, we will lose.

This is what I propose:
1) Today, we no lynch
2) At night, I kill Rufflig/Jeromus. You no kill. (I was going to suggest that we each killed one of the masons, but I figure that you probably wouldn't accept that, since you would suspect that, because I am proposing this strategy, I would lie about it. This way, you can be assured that I won't cheat you, since if I killed you rather than Rufflig or Jeromus, they would be able to lynch me tomorrow.)
3) Tomorrow, we lynch the remaining of Ruffling/Jeromus. That makes it a draw.

Let me know if you see any problems with the above, but I think it provides the best way for us to get around the Prisoner's Dilemma in this situation.

[The Rufflig]

I see no problem with that strategy - it will result in a town win. You will both kill each other the following night leaving no threats to the town. Note: the townie win condition doesn't state that there has to be any townies alive to win.

[vollkan]

I see no problem with that strategy - it will result in a town win. You will both kill each other the following night leaving no threats to the town. Note: the townie win condition doesn't state that there has to be any townies alive to win.

I think it's broadly accepted that "You win when all threats to the town are dead." requires that there is at least one townie still alive.

@MOD:

Can you confirm this?

[The Rufflig]

Btw, vollkan - there is a flaw with your plan that Occult can exploit to win the game. Instead of no-killing, Occult could nightkill you for the win.