Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!

[havingfitz]

First post of probably two or three to catch up.

@zMM, I know what you opinion of my VCA is. I asking you for was your take at a VCA based on the votecounts I provided. Feel free to remove my opinioned colorings. Anyone else is welcome to as well.

---

Fix your meta MoI. It's awful.

Ok, I get it. You are the 2005 version of Fate.

Wildly unimpressive play, a penchant for rhetoric over actually using your brain, a love for being pointlessly insulting, and an ego that is very disproportionate for your actual game skills.

I thought this was a hilariously ironic post as it describes your play in this game pretty accurately up to this point. I would have thrown pretentious in there as well.

Having

– I’m going to keep this as short as I can. Most of 695 is first, second or Nth iterations of your opinion clashing with mine. I’m not going to continue to waste time debating these issues because you aren’t going to change your mind. On the other issues –

Agreed and ditto.

I agree with all the points above.

So you agree that that post by Hez is chock full of scumminess. Is he now a scum-suspect for you or is he still Town?

I agreed with your observations. I have stated Hez is my weakest town read.

Referencing specific examples do not require statistics. Saying something OVERWHELMINGLY indicates something (ie scum alignment) does. Got it?

I get what you are saying. It’s wrong. A specific example isn’t generally very relevant due to the low sample size. So giving one isolated example of Faraday as scum doing something isn’t relevant.

You saying it’s wrong doesn’t make it wrong. I didn’t say my point was statistically accurate because I do not maintain statistics on what happens on this site. The fact I have observed something happen makes it very relevant FMPOV.

I am reminded you dodged my question regarding Faraday –

Have you ever played with Faraday as Town? If so did he vote with no reasoning there?

Answer it in your next post please!

Sir! Yes sir!
I did not dodge your question….pardon if it got lost in the clutter of your massive posts. I have played twice with Faraday when he was town. He didn’t give reasons with his vote in that game either. What’s the point? You mention the only person I know who makes a habit of not justifying their votes to justify you doing the same thing? Do you make that a habit? (Hint: No you don’t) So the fact you did it in here raised my suspicion towards you (as it does whenever anyone does it).

It’s not a lie. Exaggeration again by you. And I like how you call it a lie and then proceed to prove that you suspected him before he left. Why would you consider Sloth’s post 496 as his going AWOL? It was his stretch of not posting in here prior to requesting replacement that constitutes his AWOL and which started your suspicion of him. His last post prior to requesting replacement was Post 416. You start calling him out on his absence in Post 473. THIS equates to you putting pressure on Sloth for not posting in the game. He was not avoiding the game BECAUSE of pressure…the pressure was coming AFTER he stopped posting.

Your definition of AWOL is pointless to the discussion. He was suspicious for posting IN OTHER GAMES while not posting here. That was and has always been part of my suspicion on your slot. Note that after all the ‘pressure’ that was being applied Sloth’s NEXT post requested replacement.

You say it’s pointless because it doesn’t support your suspicions towards Sloth. You have been quite generous with your MISREPs and the fact your suspect play is going unnoticed by everyone other than Hez is frustrating.

[havingfitz]

Let me repost the part to zMM in English this time:

@zMM, I know what your opinion of my VCA is. I was asking you for your take at a VCA based on the votecounts I provided. Feel free to remove my opinionated colorings. Anyone else is welcome to as well.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm much too lazy to do a full VCA.

I really didn't disagree with many of the conclusions you came to in your VCA, I just don't agree with your suspicions.

Objectively speaking, the Empking L-1 wagon likely had 3-4 scum on it. The Twisted lynch likely had 3-4 scum on it. Looking at 2+2 or 2+1, probably not 3+1. D2 cj wagon likely had 1+1 on and 1+1 off. Maybe 2+1 on.

This doesn't go against my suspicions, but I'm not going to argue that it supports my suspicions. Hez didn't participate in either lynch. I think Hez is a werewolf and his buddy was likely on both lynches. Wicked would be my top pick for his partner. They haven't voted together at all this game. After Wicked jumped off the Emp wagon, Hez jumped on it. Wicked never went back to Emp, and Hez never went over to Twisted, even after the Emp wagon died.

[HezLucky]

You say it’s pointless because it doesn’t support your suspicions towards Sloth. You have been quite generous with your MISREPs and the fact your suspect play is going unnoticed by everyone other than Hez is frustrating.

This. Oh my god this. I know half the town is scum but this is pretty much why I am clearing havingfitz for at least two in-game days. MoI's werewolf buddy won't vote him, but the other two mafia are really scared that MoI will draw attention to them. After all, as I have stated, he can make a convincing case on a box of pizza. You people are being swayed by the fact that being able to accuse someone well =/= them being scum. MoI has IGNORED that point this entire game, and I am of the strong belief that MoI would do no such thing as town. When was the last time MoI has made a case on someone and decided "this person is scummy but just playing poorly"? Scum-MoI would never do that --> it removes potential lynch targets. Yet any true townie would.

(and if he has done that this game, it certainly hasn't been emphasized -- notice how I, for example, have constantly emphasized that I think DK is a huge VI, but not actually scum. I'm not sure about that stance anymore, but the fact is I have repeated it over and over. If MoI has infact found someone scummy but decided they aren't scum this game, then he's certainly pushed it by the wayside, and given is 150-200 posts over the game I doubt anyone is going to find some little line or paragraph hidden on Day 2 when it comes time for MoI to want to lynch that person)

In conclusion, MoI is not playing pro-town. Scum make cases on people. Pro-town players CONSIDER cases on people (they are afraid to be wrong). MoI has not considered any cases on people, he just makes them.

This doesn't go against my suspicions, but I'm not going to argue that it supports my suspicions. Hez didn't participate in either lynch. I think Hez is a werewolf and his buddy was likely on both lynches. Wicked would be my top pick for his partner. They haven't voted together at all this game. After Wicked jumped off the Emp wagon, Hez jumped on it. Wicked never went back to Emp, and Hez never went over to Twisted, even after the Emp wagon died.

Your ability to make up evidence is astounding, but you are no MoI. Thank you for pointing this out to me. Hey Wicked, join me in voting for Magna or Muffin. Please? I think your town but I really wish our scumdars were aligned.

[havingfitz]

I don’t think Sloth was avoiding the game due to pressure. I think he was avoiding the game because he was scum and wanted to keep a low profile after his Day 1 play. His reaction to pressure being applied for that was to replace out and continue to play actively in other games.

I don’t recall Sloth getting any grief on D1 and if he was getting any significant suspicions or criticisms for his play I think I would recall it. I do know he didn’t receive a single vote on D1 (along with zMM, Caboose and cj). So what reason did he have to stop posting? His name was not mentioned ONCE on D2 until he stopped posting in here. Here is every D2 comment I can find that casts any hint of pressure on Sloth prior to his replacing out:

• Post 426 Hez - #4 - Sloth (56/100) - lurky mclurk
  
  

  Post 437 Wicked - Sloth - Scum.

  
  
  Post 444 Magna - In looking at ISOs Cjdrum and Sloth’s votes for Emp look the worst.
  
  

  Post 452 Regfan - Umbrage, I believe Sloth is due for a prod very soon - I saw him posting elsewhere on the site but he's been avoiding this game, he stated he was 'catching up' close to three days ago. // Scum Reads: Neil113, Hezlucky, Sloth.

  
  
  Post 455 zMM - Sloth needs to be more active. I don't find anything really scummy in his posts, but I haven't really seen him make or push a case on anyone, there's nothing that stands out to me as town in his posts, and his inactivity isn't helping. Null, I need to hear more from him.
  
  

  Post 462 LMP - Sloth is scum.
  Post 464 LMP - Vote: Sloth

  
  
  Post 465 Cj - Sloth was being difficult and asking me a thousand and one questions on the top of page [number], then has disappeared to [place]. I don't get why a Townie would... Do that. At all.
  
  VOTE: Sloth
  
  

  Post 473 Magna - I’ve also reviewed Sloth’s posting history. He has 20 posts on site since the thread opened on Friday. Not a single one in this game.

  
  
  Post 478 Hez – He [Wicked] has DK as town, cjdrum as scum (from the last FOS I could see this), I disagree with Magna as town and neil as scum but the other two (Sloth/MuffinMan) suspicions seem very legitimate as well. // #4 - Sloth (56/100)
  
  

  Post 483 Regfan - Umbrage, Sloth hasn't posted in more than 5 days, have you sent him a prod?

  
  
  Post 424 LMP - Since he's scum we should just lynch him and save the mod the trouble.
  
  

  Post 486 Wicked - Not a bad idea. My scumread on cjdrum is about as strong as my scumread on Sloth and I'd be willing to switch my vote to the latter if there is enough support and cjdrum has defended against the points I bring up. (which I'm still working on)

  
  
  Post 493 LMP - I agree with pretty much all of 491. I think Sloth is a better lynch though.

IMO I do not think this is anything other than normal pressure. And the majority of the comments are just referencing his absence which he could have dispelled easily by just making a few posts in here. There were NO cases made on him that he needed to lay low from. With my knowledge of his role PM the only explanation I can conceive is that he had lost interest. Which I do not see scum doing.

You are asserting that it is because he was a bored Townie. I assert it was because he was scum and his best course of action was to get a ‘replacement halo’.

This makes no sense. What good does a “replacement halo” do for someone? Once they quit a game it’s over for them. They don’t win or lose. Who the he|| cares what happens to their player slot AFTER they have gone? If they valued their role in the game enough to try and

~save

it by replacing out…why not just stay in the game and be part of the outcome. If replacing out was such a strong scum tell people would just lynch player slots whenever they replaced out. The “pressure” you mention that forced Sloth to replace out is minimal at best and at the time he replaced out, cj was looking like a sure thing for the day’s lynch.

---

2. No inconsistency here…I find it suspicious that you suspected DK so much Day 2 and are now focusing (or at least were when you voted me) on my slot for lesser or invalid reasons.

This is laughable. You dismiss it as not being inconsistent but don’t explain how your statement of “Suspicions change” doesn’t equally apply to myself as well as you. As for my reasons being lesser or invalid ... nah baby nah. Your slot was scummy with Sloth's avoidance of thread and your play here has been scummy.

Yeah, you are Inconsistent as Hell about this issue. Scumtastic.

Where am I being inconsistent? Summarize it and I will be more than happy to address it. As I seem to have overlooked it, can you explain your sudden change of heart on DK?

You took credit for a comment I had made. You said you bolded something I had bolded.

Um, whut? I don’t care if you originally bolded it or not. I bolded it

SPECIFICALLY

to draw attention to the fact that the bolded portion of your statement undercut your point completely.

You are completely straw-manning the argument by going off on some unrelated tangent about whether you originally bolded it or not. That’s irrelevant. You ignore the actual point of the argument in favor of straw-manning.

How is it strawmanning to point out the FACT that you were taking credit for bolding a comment I had bolded? I was simply pointing it out iirc. It’s a harmless point which I find your continued debate/defense of to be more suspect than the initial oversight/error.

Actually this is Fantasyland. Or are you really in a town that has evil sheep and werewolves?

DODGE DODGE DODGE

with another straw-man.

You can’t come up with a credible scenario why a non-Wolf claimed Seer would survive the Night so instead you post this fluff. Scummy as all get out.

Again…why are my comments a strawman example? Your just throwing out mafia buzzwords to try and discredit my comments. What am I dodging?

And as far as credible scenarios….Wicked gave one. I agreed with him which is the origin of this particular debate. I agree with the fact werewolves would be crazy/ballsy/stupid to let a claimed seer live through the night but why make D2 any easier for them by stating who would be the kill the next day? Whats wrong with agreeing with a plan/proposal/scenario that had the wolves letting the seer live and see what happened? I would have been surprised it they had let the seer live but I still thought the way Wicked rationalized a case of not committing to a next day Emp kill was reasonable. You obviously do not agree and have debated it with Wicked…but why it is scummy for me to agree with Wicked while he [wicked] appears to get a pass?

Since my thread read of Wicked and my VC analysis both make him a very unlikely scum I’m going to place my vote with his. Especially after Having’s latest round of scumtastic replies.

VOTE: Havingfitz

I’m also open to lynching either Hez or Neil today as they are my other top Wolf suspects.

What happened to…

One of Neil or Hez will be getting my vote when I recast it.

---

Some other observations while answering your attack on me…

In your [Magna] last three votes you have qualified/based/ each of your votes on the suspicions/cases made by other players.

SHEEP SHEEP SHEEP

I bolded the lines below that illustrate this anamoly (Yes…I BOLDED THEM! See how that works?).

VOTE: Havingfitz

Now that he’s actually committed to reads in thread in his ‘catch-up’ post I feel there is information to work with.

I’ll address that monstrosity of a catch-up post later in an independent post.

For now LMP’s strong suspicion of Sloth is a great jumping off point for my vote today.

UNVOTE: havingfitz
VOTE: Neil

That should put Neil at L-1.

After reviewing neil's ISO

I think Regs' summary of the case on Neil is pretty accurate.

Since my thread read of Wicked and my VC analysis both make him a very unlikely scum I’m going to place my vote with his.

Especially after Having’s latest round of scumtastic replies.

VOTE: Havingfitz

Also…since you [Magna] put so much stock in what others think…most recently Wicked, what do you think of the comments below made by wicked (and almost immediately agreed with by LMP)?

His [cj’s] second post in the game (13 hours after the previous one) he states that either Empking is scum or neil and MoI are. Something extremely interesting to note: Empking flipped town, but cjdrum hasn't expressed any suspicion of neil1113 or MoI today. Moreover, he hasn't mentioned either of them or the point that he brought up earlier.

Do you [Magna] remember agreeing with Wicked? Because you did. I don’t see you debating the fact Wicked essentially linked cj to you and/or neil. I agree with this as well.

In summary...Magna is scum. It would help to get a flip on a wolf and see where that leads us. I still think DK makes sense as a wolf. As for Magna, I am not convinced he is a wolf which is the only reason I do not vote him. Though his backing off of my main wolf read does tie them together in my mind. If I don’t get sidelined by another Magna wall I will refine/clarify my DK read.

Does anyone find the fact there were two players who made an appearance on the 6 person wagon on Emp and the 7 person lynch of Twisted? Those two players were Magna and DK yet they both have alluded suspicion for it. I would be amazed if one or both of them was not scum.

[havingfitz]

I'm much too lazy to do a full VCA.

I really didn't disagree with many of the conclusions you came to in your VCA, I just don't agree with your suspicions.

Objectively speaking, the Empking L-1 wagon likely had 3-4 scum on it. The Twisted lynch likely had 3-4 scum on it. Looking at 2+2 or 2+1, probably not 3+1. D2 cj wagon likely had 1+1 on and 1+1 off. Maybe 2+1 on.

This doesn't go against my suspicions, but I'm not going to argue that it supports my suspicions. Hez didn't participate in either lynch. I think Hez is a werewolf and his buddy was likely on both lynches. Wicked would be my top pick for his partner. They haven't voted together at all this game. After Wicked jumped off the Emp wagon, Hez jumped on it. Wicked never went back to Emp, and Hez never went over to Twisted, even after the Emp wagon died.

That's fine. I wasn't looking for a full blown VCA, just your opinion on some of the possibilities the votecounts illustrated.

What are your thoughts on DK, neil and Magna?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Limited access at this moment so I can't reply in full to havingfitz's latest tour de force.

But I don't want his last bit ignored.

His slot was also on both wagons. Yet he only mentions myself and DK as scummy for it.

I know the response will be 'But I know I'm not scum.

I know I'm not scum but you dont see me pushing that argument.

It's scummy. Period.

[havingfitz]

His slot was also on both wagons. Yet he only mentions myself and DK as scummy for it.

You are right. I overlooked that point. I was going off memory from when I had pointed this fact out earlier based on the L-2 Emp wagon which you had stated had 4 or 5 scum probably on it. Plus I was looking at it FMPOV which was looking for scum on those wagons...naturally I wouldn't be looking at myself. I stand corrected.

[Regfan]

Sorry, I've been avoiding this game out of sheer frustration I'll catch up and make a proper post later tonight.

[DeityKabuto]

Sorry, I've been avoiding this game out of sheer frustration I'll catch up and make a proper post later tonight.

Okay Scum (:

[Umbrage]

Vote Count:

neil1113 (2) - Regfan, DeityKabuto
havingfitz (2) - Wickedestjr, MagnaofIllusion
HezLucky (1) - zMuffinMan
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
DeityKabuto (1) - havingfitz

Not Voting: neil1113

[Wickedestjr]

I'm back. Don't have time for a post now, but will try to make one tomorrow.

[neil1113]

VOTE: DeityKabuto

Just checked in, read through the thread. Update on my V/LA: I'll be driving home tomorrow night, where I can finally catch up once and for all and start posting again. Expect something from me either tomorrow night, Tuesday, or Wednesday at the latest. (I might just sleep all day Tuesday to catch up on sleep, so forgive me if I do.)

[HezLucky]

Where is everyone? I'm sitting here trying to avoid my third 48-hour strike and nobody is posting a thing!

[zMuffinMan]

This doesn't go against my suspicions, but I'm not going to argue that it supports my suspicions. Hez didn't participate in either lynch. I think Hez is a werewolf and his buddy was likely on both lynches. Wicked would be my top pick for his partner. They haven't voted together at all this game. After Wicked jumped off the Emp wagon, Hez jumped on it. Wicked never went back to Emp, and Hez never went over to Twisted, even after the Emp wagon died.

Your ability to make up evidence is astounding

What part of what you quoted was made up evidence?

[HezLucky]

This part:

1. I think Hez is a werewolf and his buddy was likely on both lynches.
2. Wicked would be my top pick for his partner.
3. They haven't voted together at all this game.
4. After Wicked jumped off the Emp wagon, Hez jumped on it.
5. Wicked never went back to Emp, and Hez never went over to Twisted, even after the Emp wagon died.

1 is made up, as it's not true.

4 implies I jumped on the Emp wagon because Wicked jumped off it. Not true.
5 implies the two of us are voting based on how the other is voting. Also not true. [though I wish we were voting together - would make my life a lot easier]

not true = made up.
Did you expect a different response or something? Or are you playing a game of semantics?

[zMuffinMan]

Oh, cool. We get to play that game, do we? OK, all your reads on me are made up. Because I said so.

[HezLucky]

We'll see about that.

[zMuffinMan]

Indeed.

[Wickedestjr]

1. It's what came to my mind when I read that post. I was not trying to prove a math theorem when I made the comment. I found it slightly suspect for what I stated above.

1. When you said 'way to commit' were you trying to say that you found DK's stance to be a weak one?

Also, havingfitz, why do you think DK and neil are werewolves and not mafia?

The VCA.

I don't see where you explained how neil and DK are werewolves as opposed to mafia. Can you quote what you said earlier that made you believe DK and neil were werewolves instead of mafia?

They're mostly a regurgitation of the reasons I stated earlier today.

I assume you're talking about my reasons for thinking neil is scum. Am I right?

[Regfan]

2. I'm starting to think Regfan is mafia.

Care to explain?

In conclusion, MoI is not playing pro-town. Scum make cases on people. Pro-town players CONSIDER cases on people (they are afraid to be wrong). MoI has not considered any cases on people, he just makes them.

This has to be some of the worst logic I have ever seen.
1. You're attempting to say that town just consider cases instead of making them, that means you're stating townies just consider cases proposed by scum.
2. You're attempting to create a case on MoI saying he's scum due to the fact he's creating cases elsewhere.
3. You state townies consider cases while not considering any cases at the same time (You openely state you refuse to vote elsewhere from Muffin/Magna today)

VOTE: DeityKabuto

Just checked in, read through the thread. Update on my V/LA: I'll be driving home tomorrow night, where I can finally catch up once and for all and start posting again. Expect something from me either tomorrow night, Tuesday, or Wednesday at the latest. (I might just sleep all day Tuesday to catch up on sleep, so forgive me if I do.)

You asked for spare time due to your V/LA so you could come back and address the points put forward against you and defend yourself, instead you've thrown your vote on DK with no added reasoning. Being V/LA is one thing, but stating you've had time to read everything means you've had ample time to defend the accustations is another.

I assume you're talking about my reasons for thinking neil is scum. Am I right?

Yes, you're correct.

I'm still very comfortable with by Neil vote however I want to read into Hez and HavingFitz tommorow.

[HezLucky]

In conclusion, MoI is not playing pro-town. Scum make cases on people. Pro-town players CONSIDER cases on people (they are afraid to be wrong). MoI has not considered any cases on people, he just makes them.

This has to be some of the worst logic I have ever seen.
1. You're attempting to say that town just consider cases instead of making them, that means you're stating townies just consider cases proposed by scum.
2. You're attempting to create a case on MoI saying he's scum due to the fact he's creating cases elsewhere.
3. You state townies consider cases while not considering any cases at the same time (You openely state you refuse to vote elsewhere from Muffin/Magna today)

Your defense of MoI is completely and utterly noted. I tend not to do points this late in the game, but if I did you would have gone up greatly now for being so blatant about it. (something like +8)

1. This is completely foolish. Either you are disgusting scum or you misunderstood my point. I will let you choose which. Pro-town players "consider" cases on people means that since they are afraid to be wrong, pro-town players are constantly assessing whether or not their case is valid. In other words, they think about whether or not INSERTPLAYERHERE is scum, and if they decide he is, they make the case. As opposed to what MoI is doing which is deciding in advance that he wants to attack INSERTPLAYERHERE, and making a case on that person contrary to any new evidence or thoughts that come up. When was the last time you saw MoI admit he was wrong abotu a read this game? Or change his mind at all? Town players change minds. Scum are too scared to be accused of flip-flopping to change their mind. Hence, scum make cases without constantly considering the validity of them.

2. I guess this is explained in my response to #1 above.

3. I am not wrong about Magna or Muffin. I have held a very open mind towards everyone else. For example, you have gone up in my suspicion list, and Neil and DK are flipflopping on my scumdar constantly. However, I choose to go with one of my two strongest scumreads today.


In fact, Regfan's reads have largely sucked all game. He's been defending the wrong players and accusing the wrong ones. I will assess him tomorrow if one of Magna/Muffin can be lynched today.

[DeityKabuto]

VOTE: DeityKabuto

Just checked in, read through the thread. Update on my V/LA: I'll be driving home tomorrow night, where I can finally catch up once and for all and start posting again. Expect something from me either tomorrow night, Tuesday, or Wednesday at the latest. (I might just sleep all day Tuesday to catch up on sleep, so forgive me if I do.)

Mis-lynch. Cool story, bro.

[havingfitz]

1. It's what came to my mind when I read that post. I was not trying to prove a math theorem when I made the comment. I found it slightly suspect for what I stated above.

1. When you said 'way to commit' were you trying to say that you found DK's stance to be a weak one?

Also, havingfitz, why do you think DK and neil are werewolves and not mafia?

The VCA.

I don't see where you explained how neil and DK are werewolves as opposed to mafia. Can you quote what you said earlier that made you believe DK and neil were werewolves instead of mafia?

1. When I say way to commit I was focusing on the word "try" when DK stated he thought scum would try to avoid the cj wagon if cj was to flip scum. I felt like this was DK's attempt to steer people away from looking at cj's wagon for scum. And with ther still being four scum in play...I think DK's statement is quite a reach. Especially given that the werewolves would have absolutely no qualms about lynching cj. So DK steering folks off the cj wagon seemed like more of something a werewolf would say. I am still of the opinion that one or both werewolves are likley to be on the cj wagon and given the suspicion cj was receiving, a decent chance of at least one mafia partner (aka evil sheep) bussing him.

My rationale for thinking DK was a wolf was provided directly above my vote on him.

I'm still putting together a closer look at DK (RL has been distracting me) but I will say recent activity has me questioning my thoughts on DK and neil being partners. I will try to post more this evening.

[Umbrage]

OK, this has gone on long enough. Activity has taken a dive, and you're clearly nowhere near agreement. I'm setting a deadline of one week. If that deadline is met, I'm declaring no-lynch and moving the game directly into night.

Here's your countdown.