Newbie 1117(Town Wins)

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/confirm

Hello everyone! I'm an SE, and will be here to answer any questions/concerns in order to assist bviogt.
Let's make this a good one!

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Since everyone has confirmed, I don't think mod would mind if we started RVS. So, vote away.

Vote: Haze

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^^I'd like to ask the above questions to everyone.

1)Well, you can see from my record that I have played considerably more games as town, as such I have more experience at it. So, I prefer to play town.

2) Nope, i'd accept the treats. I mean, its grandma.

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^^I'd like to ask the above questions to everyone.

How do you think those questions will help determine other players' alignments?

Anything that stimulates discussion gives me a look at playing style and allows people to react. I actually prefer RQS to RVS for this reason.

-Experience helps us figure out how much a player should know, whether or not the mistake is a serious one given his or her background

-Questions about morality bring about more questions

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Not random lynch, random vote. First votes are rarely the reason for a lynch. I think your misunderstanding the process. A D1 lynch is always on someone who has garnered the most suspicion, not who people randomly voted at the beginning. Votes and questions both stimulate discussion that eventually leads to a lynch. You are thinking into it too much.

What do you suggest is done?

There can only be two PR max in this setup. A mafia with a power role claim leaves themselves in the open for two other people to claim their power.

Many flaws in your speculation. Sometimes mafia keeps a power role around for various reasons, such as they believe town will eventually lynch them or that their reads are terrible enough for keeping them around.

A random lynch is certainly anti-town, but thats not what we're doing here.

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Exactly. RVS and RQS GIVE something to discuss, which is why its a relatively common start (at least on this site).

Answered the questions despite not liking them: bbmolla +townpoints

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touche, but it comes off as genuine submission to something he's opposed to

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@Bo: would your reaction be any different if he just didn't answer the questions?

It's just different, I'll go with it, but don't expect me to lead any lynches d1.

This is a scummier statement. What do you suggest is done on d1, if there is no scum-hunting? A no lynch? Having no opinions on people is generally very bad town-play, especially if you don't take a stance on anyone.

@RandomGuy: Do you find bv's more subtle dislike of the questions to be suspicious? BB basicaly said he's only answering the questions so he doesn't look scummy, but Bv said he doesn't see a purpose and answers them anyway.

@everyone else: say more so I can start to for a read on you

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I'm too hardcore for rules bro.

Be lucky these rules are standard. One day you'll be in a large theme and wind up modkilled for breaking a post restriction

All these long posts....mafiascum was completely shut down for me for a while so I apologize if I don't have much to say regarding the last page. People other than the 4 of us need to talk.

Newbies: Lurking may seem like a great strategy when you first start playing (both as town or mafia). Perhaps if town you are worried about putting your opinions out there, but we need your voice to get a read on you.

Mafia and PR's may lurk because they want to avoid attention. This only directs suspicion towards you.

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1. This is my first game; am I supposed to make a judgement based off what I Imagine the roles to be like?

Definitely read up on the roles so you have knowledge of how they work together. However, I suggest you don't role-fish (try to find out what people are) in thread, as that is generally a scum-tell. Its probably best to treat everyone as a Vanilla Townie during D1, until claims and kills come into play

So I have some idea as to what I should be doing, but all those crappy abbreviations or whatnot are causing some annoyance.

I will try to avoid them, but will explain them if they come up.

By the way, what the hell is a 'Blue'?

Blue isn't something used very often on this site, so I wouldn't worry about it. I'm guessing its something like a Vanilla Townie (VT)

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@Toasty: I believe you still have a random vote on. What are your reads so far?

I will be making a list today, but I think random-BB is town on town

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@BB: 3 chances to lynch scum is better than 2 chances.

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@Toasty: I believe you still have a random vote on. What are your reads so far?

I will be making a list today, but I think random-BB is town on town

Yes, I'm totes not scumhunting. Even quakerz is doing a better job at that!

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Buttered Toast

Haze-His summaries of events are good, he's honest, didn't hesitate to answer the questions, etc.

SomeRandomGuy-Consistent arguments, RQS, explained why he switched to Quackerz well, I don't see talkative noob-scum as a likely scenario.

Toast

bvoigt-Meh, on the one hand he has contributed, but I'm not getting much of anything from it. Feel like his suspicion on me is forced (he was asked who his next FoS would be). I believe you are going for the active-lurking tell? What he says is true, I haven't been very upfront thus far in the game, but in my defense, we're only on page 4 and the fact that I already planned to get a list together kind of counters this.

BBmolla-I think people are attacking him for things that can be interpreted as him getting used to a new website. Suspicions based on his view of RVS and RQS are weak, especially because scum is more likely to go with the flow rather than out themselves by saying "i'm doing this because I have to"

Does Bo Know-Seems wishy washy. "you're not as scummy as I thought you were," but keeps his vote on random regardless. Its also for the very specific reason of a vote hop. He also challenges BBmolla a few times, and

I don't know, it's in my gut you're not that scummy. But I still feel you're the most anti-town here.

screams "I don't have any real reads." Possible he's having a hard time finding town-slips, but then again its early in the game. Therefore, he's null

Burnt Toast

Quackerz or kad2361--Quackerz has said absolutely nothing, which is just bad. Kad's little entrance was...odd, especially because he never actually explained if he thought BBmolla was scum. Lurkers with no reads who neither give town enough material to for an opinion nor try to scumhunt themselves are scummy.

Redcolbalt--Strongest scum read
1)

I dont get this, if you part of the town here. Why would you ask this question ?
just to get reactions , well with your answer wouldnt people find you more of a bad guy here.
You did mention earlier that you would maniuplate other players.

He attacks somerandomguy for his answers to the questions, and yet doesn't answer them himself. In my opinion, if he is going to attack someone for revealing information, he should give his own answers first. He's using information from random questions that he himself is unwilling to answer. Also, where did redcolbalt say he would manipulate other players? Misrep?

Random, started scummy, but he has over the posts, kinda like showed me that he is to clean to be scum, he is willing to open up and explain his ideas without holding anything back. I still kinda think your "null"

So you attack him for being open in his answers and the questions, but then use that same reasoning to defend him?

2)

but BBmolla, is also kinda ... scummmy. He seems, overconfident, and pleads not to be killled off.

So after you form suspicions on Random, you change your mind in the same post and vote for the person Random started a wagon on? Hmmm....

3)Then there are the reasons for voting BBmolla...
-Overconfidence isn't a scumtell.
-I've seen town plead not to be lynch before, but its usually more about RAGE. What's scummy about it is that BB was nowhere near getting hammered.

Because , i feel that your the most ... strangest !

-Unless this is gut, this doesn't even count. And gut isn't a very convincing argument anyways

Unvote:Vote: Redcolbalt

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3. I'd agree with your first bullet point, but you admit that his second reason is valid, and since Red had already outlined a couple of reasons, it wasn't just a gut read. I don't think the vote was scummy.

I had a problem with his interpretation of the event. Anyone can plead not to get lynched. He didn't mention the timing at all, which I consider to be the most important part.

Toast - I am worried, Toast. I kinda agree with Bv that for the sheer volume of posting that you have done, there's much less substance compared to BB. What's going on? Sure, the other guys are lurking and saying nothing, but other than that one post; you're almost as good as lurking. Or am I picking up too much here.

This whole "white noise" thing is interesting. I guess I just don't find 5 pages to be enough content to develop strong reads?

Also, Haze, you say "everything is shot" regarding DoesBoKnow. Just as a suggestion, remember that its important to compare the old player with his/her replacement (future IC?)

After this, you go on to clearly explain why VT claims are anti-town. So what pro-town reason do you have for asking this question? Haze, it's better if you don't clarify what you meant.

My initial understanding was that it was rhetoical. Interesting how he's basically trying to teach Haze.

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btw, the parentheses should be on the last line (lol referring to the 'teaching').
And noted.

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@Bv.
I didn't realise that what I was doing is known as rolefishing.
I also didn't realise that it was a scum tell.

I didn't see the rolefish either, but it is very much anti-town. Unfortunately, town often do this anyway

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Um, there's only like 6 posts. Surely it can't be that hard if you need to read the thread anyways?
He voted BBmolla but switched to SRG

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If it was contrived, why would I post so many of his quotes and respond to them?
Can't really answer to anything now, so I'll wait.
I also love how you accuse me of being scum and yet have the same town-reads as I do (with exception of bv, whose null but still townish)

Because he's seeing a lot of the things I'm seeing and coming to the same conclusions I am.

Agreeing with someone is hardly a town-tell

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Well , i only played one complete game, as town. So im gonna have to say town then.
And i would take the treats bc a long time ago if im lucky grandma would put
Some money in my bag , so my mom wouldnt take it xD

Found it. Apparently I skipped post #109-118 (which included his response).That definitely hurts my case, but I still don't like how he interpreted randomguy's answers to his own questions. The other points stand.

@Muffin:It doesn't make sense if you believe scum to lie about their buddy.
And I asked that "contrived" question because you have yet to explain

why

its contrived. Hence why I said I'm waiting for more.

i did answer them ?
i said i wouldnt try to manipulate my own grandma into a plot to kill her.
I do attack him , but also defend him. I try to look on both sides, before i cast a vote.
I didnt change my mind, its bb than random. He would be my "FoS"
Well, thats why we all have guts ? I feel that i am on a good hunch and shall push my case, untill i am proven wrong.

Attack+defend=wishy-washy=scummy
Unless you think BBmolla and RandomGuy are scum together, I have a hard time following your thought process in your suspicons.
Guts are not great when trying to tell town why someone is scum. Its very easy to say "gut" when you have no other suspects.

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I'm sooo going to rage at you two the next time I post.
The game is 6 pages long. Sorry if I don't get reads in the first 4 pages of a game. It takes more than that for me to think things through. Hence why the beginning play is complete BS.

More later, not in the mood atm

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@ Toasty: If you think the beginning is BS, then try be like SRG and ask questions, and read the responses of the different players.

I will. but,

More later, not in the mood atm

its been a loooong day.

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mkay so I'm just going to respond to the points one at a time. Muffin's case reads as town, but many of the points are stuff I simply need to clarify.

Point 1: IIoA

Up to page 4, all of Toasty's post are IIoA (information instead of analysis). There's really no scum hunting whatsoever, and he's just coasting along posting what is essentially fluff. IIoA isn't a bad thing in newbie games (it is a learning experience, after all), but in combination with the fact he's doing no scum hunting, it's a scummy way to coast through the game.

1) I will certainly admit that I was letting the game move on its own for the first few pages. I wanted to see where the bbmolla-randomguy argument would lead, and I ultimately came to the decision that it was town on town. Redcolbalt's post stuck out (and still does) for the reasons I pointed out. bv asked me to scumhunt, so I told him exactly what was on my mind.

2)

@Toasty: I believe you still have a random vote on. What are your reads so far?

I will be making a list today

, but I think random-BB is town on town

Yes, I'm totes not scumhunting. Even quakerz is doing a better job at that!

Did EVERYONE misunderstand this? It was a STFU, I'm workin' on it, post.

3)Here's some points in which I was scumhunting.

What do you suggest is done?

Checking to see if bbmolla was just making a newb mistake

@Bo: would your reaction be any different if he just didn't answer the questions?

Bo was very much a null read. I was reaction fishing.I thought Bo was just hopping on the wagon with poor reasoning.

This is a scummier statement. What do you suggest is done on d1, if there is no scum-hunting? A no lynch? Having no opinions on people is generally very bad town-play, especially if you don't take a stance on anyone.

self-explanatory

@RandomGuy: Do you find bv's more subtle dislike of the questions to be suspicious? BB basicaly said he's only answering the questions so he doesn't look scummy, but Bv said he doesn't see a purpose and answers them anyway.

Checking the reasoning behind choosing to argue w/ BB, but completely ignoring Bv (in all his posts)

@everyone else: say more so I can start to for a read on you

Oh, look. I mentioned wanting ppl to say more so I can scumhunt more thoroughly/compare with my rankings of other players.

3)This is my first game as SE. My next newbie, I'll probably be an IC. So, yeah, I'm here to teach--its why I joined the game. Sorry if I'm getting a little to excited about it, but it is what it is.

Point 2: the colbalt case

Secondly, srg did indeed say he would manipulate other players in #27, so there is no 'misrep' by RC here.

Absolutely,

although i've no need to in this game due to my alignment

. i wont state 'i am town' though since such is a redundant statement that everyone here will make for obvious reasons.

yeah, he said he would manipulate other players, but has no need to in this game. Thats a big difference. Colbalt singles this out and changes it. randomguys response to his question was an honest one, free of manipulation. he's not trying to fool anyone and says, "yeah, of course I would manipulate players. Just not in this game, thats a job for the scum."

So it is a misrep--he makes it seem like randomguy said he could be manipulating everyone right now.

This isn't even a reason to suspect someone... It's not scummy. He's suspicious of srg for particular reasons, he's suspicious of BB for particular reason. Where is the scumminess here?

Oh, yes it is. He's appealing to both sides of the argument. As such, if one gets lynched, he has the opportunity to say: "well, I thought the other was scummy. So lets lynch him now."
I asked him if he thought bb and srg were scum together. This idea was largely rhetorical, because I don't believe/see that at all. As such, the other option is that one is scum and the other isn't. This leads to chaining lynches, which is VERY scummy.

Are you suggesting RC is scummy because his reasons for thinking BB is scummy are weak? I personally didn't like RC's vote on BB either, but this didn't come off as scum-looking-for-something-to-call-scummy, I read it as him genuinely thinking BB is scummy.

Yes. He had stronger reasons to vote srg, but votes the person with the larger wagon. What's the scum motivaion behind that? lol, do I even have to say? Getting an srg lynch is going to be much harder because BBmolla (sorry) has the weaker argument. Also, BBmolla has significantly more suspicion on him.

I don't think he was trying to convince anyone with that line, and gut is a pretty valid reason for thinking someone is scum. It's not a valid reason if you can't explain why you have a gut feeling about someone, and it's probably not going to convince anyone else to vote with you, but that's beside the point.

Gut isn't about "explanations" at all. I don't condone his use of gut, I acknowledged the fact that if gut is his most valid reason for voting BBmolla, then he should be voting for someone else. Gut is never a convincing argument because you can't properly explain that feeling you get with anything other than "I had a feeling." In other words, its not a case.

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I asked him if he thought bb and srg were scum together. This idea was largely rhetorical, because I don't believe/see that at all. As such, the other option is that one is scum and the other isn't. This leads to chaining lynches, which is VERY scummy.

Why couldn't they be a scumteam? SRG has voiced suspicions of BB, but his vote is still on Quackerz. Other than that point, I have a town read on SRG; however, if BB flips scum, I'll be looking carefully at their interactions.

Taking that vote of was a pro-town move. SRG didn't want a lynch to happen that quickly. If I saw that the day was quickly turning into a "tunnel the newbie" day, I would have taken my vote of, too.

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Nothing in mafia is 100%. I'm accusing redcolbalt of not taking a real stance, which I find scummy. You may disagree with me, but all his posts point to a certain attitude that says "wellll....i don't really care who gets lynched"

Also, my point was that logic should always take priority over gut. Redcolbalt voted BB with poor reason and had decent reasons to vote for srg. But he didn't. Why? because srg is at this point in the game considered by most to be a townread.

I will defend more later, but I really am not liking kad right now, and would definitely see him as scum over verydark (I'm going to examine his post more thoroughly but at first glance it redeemed the fail that he replaced.

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Instinct begins an investigation, proof/reasons are what lynch a person. Once again, redcolbalt was getting scummy vibes from srg, too, yet he still picks bbmolla(gut, sheeping, poor reasoning) over srg (gut, original thoughts, some remnants of a case). Comprende?

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Hm, any reason ur vote is still on SRG, muffin?

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Can I not ask any question without you concluding that its scummy? I was asking why because you haven't exactly been suspicious of SRG since joining the game.

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I'd scumhunt, but I'm not at the point where I can recognize any tells. That's why I haven't been contributing anything.
I've got a response, but I can't say it without outing my role.
Also Kad, claiming and matching roles is pretty useless considering there's a percentage that a role doesn't even exist.

What do you think is scummy? Even if you haven't figured out tells, you can still scum-hunt. Look for motivations behind words
I generally make a list and do a process of elimination to find early game reads.

@Redcolbalt: I would like your opinion on other people. Srg and BB you think are both scummy, and you've defended against me. What do you think of the muffin case and of the other players?
What I see is different than what you may feel, unfortunately. BBmolla was the easiest wagon to hop on (and still is), and I found your vote on him just as scummy as kad's.

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yeah, I have a major hard-on for toast, what of it?

well, we are both made of bread. I may sig this.

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Unfortunately, I haven't been on this site long enough to say "I always do soft-questioning," but I can at least point to the fact that I encouraged the RQS, and the soft-questioning was more or less an individualized continuation of RQS. Ask a question, take notes, gather data, present a case. That sort of thing.

The "my case was contrived" comment I can't really defend against because he is my legitimate #1 suspect. I thought/still think redcolbalt was someone being overlooked. There was too much of a focus on srg and bbmolla, two people who I thought were town. He's also recently added the "active lurking" tell to my reasons for voting him.

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@Muffin: kad is my second scum-read. Everyone of his posts has been "I agree with *blank,* we should all vote *blank*"
I wouldn't prefer a kad lynch over a redcolbalt lynch, but I'd still be willing to vote him. I will expand 2morrow. I've had quite a busy week.

verydark...meh, he's doing better than quackerz. I need more b4 I have a decided view but he's null atm.

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srg might be flying under the radar right now, and were skipping iver a few people...

srg is under the radar? pot calling the kettle black.

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ya, so vote me

....

Unvote:Vote:kad2361

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Over-defensive attitude+hyporitical+lurking+not changing+not being helpful? Yeah, does make him more scum.

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I'm not quite sure whether you were being sarcastic or not, Toasty.

Although I am a very sarcastic person, in this situation I'm completely serious.

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The newb card isn't a great defense in a NEWBIE GAME. You know, where more than half the layer list is a newb?

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The newb card isn't a great defense in a NEWBIE GAME. You know, where more than half the layer list is a newb?

Umm...Yes it is...
Muffin: I'm giving Cobalt null. I give myself a townread ^_^. But yes, I'd agree that kad's lynch is the least useful if we go through with it right now.

Its a poor defense in any situation, and in a newbie game its worse. because. its. for newbs. With that logic I can say "WHEEE everyone is a newbie so I'm not going to lynch them for doing scummy things!!! Lets just take out the IC and SE because they know what they're doing!" See my point? If you can distinguish b/w wut makes newb-scum and wut makes newb-town different, then its another story. But no one can seem to figure out which one kad is, can they?

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@Mod: I am voting kad, not voided

@Muffin: lol my vote has been on kad, thats mod error

My point about the newb card is that....pretty much everyone here is a newb. As such it can't be used to distinguish one person from another. Everyone should be treated as players on the same level, as all of them are learning the game at the same time. As such, kad is coming off as scum among a group of newbies, whereas other newbies are considered to be town. Saying "oh, they're just a noob"=then only the IC and SE actions should be considered.

Oops. Sorry shotty

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Unvote:Vote:kad

just in case
that means we have 2 people at L-1

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I WAS ALREADY ON HIM. MOD ERROR. If you're going to call someone out for that then ask Haze. My vote was immediately after kad was all like "lolvoteme"....read plz. Also, I don't think BB is scum at all, so there's no reason I can't bring the wagon of someone I have a scum-read on to L-1. also, BB is on kad, and kad is on BB. In other words, that move is impossible unless they're self-hammering

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@BB: soft-claiming as a VT actually can help town a lot, you just have to do it really well (see Andrius, whose title is the Baker for how much he crumbs his roles)

BBmolla looks more town with his recent responses. I don't initially like his whole "i'd be willing to lynch kad because i can be more useful thing," but given the time we have left, the situation he's in, and kad's general behavior, its not really scummy at all.

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...why did voided have to wait? I think its a very NULL thing to hop on

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There's no question that BB is contributing more and actually attempting to play (so props for that) but I still feel his overall actions in the game were the scummiest. You all have lynched Kad simply because he hasn't contributed and lurked most of the game.

Hmm....

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@Toasty
Huh?

Just a hunch. Don't worry about it, yet.

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1) I withdraw my "hmm" comment from earlier. I had a hunch that verydark was scum, so I looked over his posts again, but not much stood out.

2) Haze was likely killed for being in the middle; no one suspected him, but he wasn't a huge part of the D1 discussion. As such, its hard to track the reasons for the kill.

3) Players I'm going to be looking @ today: Bv and voided/colbalt

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@SRG: It seems to me that you are still suspicious of BB, but only based on some gameplay errors rather than scumminess.

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@bv: Yes, the hmm had a lot to do with verydark's post showing criticism of the kad lynch. It came off as if he knew 100% that kad would flip town, and suggested that the reasons for voting kad were terrible, when, in my opinion, the reasons for voting BB were significantly worse.

ANYWAYS, I re-read verydark and decided to drop my suspicions of him. My 2 biggest suspects are bvoigt and voided. bv, i feel you are faking content/active lurking. Voidedmafia seems overly concerned with what people think of him (what do you think about my hammer?). The whole "I'd vote me" came off as an attempt to distance people with a scum-read on redcolbalt, and suggest to them to drop it as well.

@SRG: For me, gameplay errors (unless its an outright slip) is more of a null-tell. Not to mention we're in a Newbie game where everyone is going to be trying a new approaches to a game.

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huh? who did you think you were replacing?

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@shotty: Could you revise the player list to show who Voidedmafia replaced?

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Well, if I wasn't Cobalt's replacement and I replaced in, yes.

Now I'M confused

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How can you claim to find your replacee scummy, then claim that you at the time had no idea who you were replacing?

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Will people please stop misrepping the fact that I STARTED THE KAD WAGON BUT SHOTTY MISSED MY VOTE.
Your operating on the idea that my vote was scummy due to the timing and yet I was the first person to vote him.

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@bvoigt: I find you to be guilty of a lot of the things I was called out for. For example, you spend a lot of time asking questions without giving your own opinions. Other than the occasional BBmolla discussion or the "TT is scum" comments, I really have no idea what your stance on people is and why. In other words, you seem to just be drifting through the game rather than actively hunting (letting other people do the work for you, never being the primary aggressor).

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@voided: I think we've gone past the point, but its very scummy. Again, its hard to believe you because you yourself said that you knew who you were replacing, and thought they were scummy.

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Mhm. so you didn't know who you replaced, acknowledged how scummy your replacement was. Then, you realized you replace him

As for the last part, are you sure you're talking about me? Because Ive never said "I'd vote me" this game. At all. Where the hell did you get that from?

Aannnddd then you forgot again.
I think voided just got flustered and lied in order to cover up some other mistakes. I know how confusing this is, but it doesn't sit right with me AT ALL. Its a big mistake for town, and even a bigger mistake if scum. Not knowing who you replaced is already bad. But then calling yourself scummy unintentionally? Then, you deny that you said anything about suspect yourself at all, even tho you acknowledge who you replaced and find them scummy.

I need to go with my best judgement, and I such I

Vote:Voidedmafia

His response to this suspicion of mine has just made him scummier, and he's still very concerned with what other people think of him.

Oi, I feel like we're going in circles.

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I know my argument isn't full of holes. But you have to remember that
1) I was Redcolbalt's main aggressor and as such why he said "I'd vote redcolbalt" without much explanation I assumed he was trying to distance himself from a scummy slot
2) Voidedmafia's slot wasn't crystal-clear even when disregarding who he replaced. I can make a case, but I really need to get off mafia atm. Not to mention that my two major problems with voided have already been discussed. Feel like those two points are the main things I can contribute--I don't want to be the only one WITH a case and there needs to be some more original thought on the views of the slot.
3) Voidedmafia and bv make a lot of sense as a scum team
4) We have different PoV. I have from D1 been looking at his slot, for example. I see scum who has sort of tripped over himself based on a small detail. In all reality, voidedmafia could have made an honest mistake. He nonetheless strongly agreed with my case. I'm really having a hard time explaining this...voidedmafia lied, buddied, distanced, and forced a circular argument. All of these things I consider to be scummy.

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bv says I'm null leaning scum, basically
SRG finds me null.
You find me scummy
I think verydark finds me scummy.
Based on BB's recent post, I'd say he thinks I'm town.

But only SRG has explained any "WHY" that is different from my own reasons.
Mafia is a group effort, and just latching onto someone else's argument isn't great regardless of allignment
bv calling you leaning scum makes you 2 as scum together even more likely. He defended RedColbalt and went on a counter-attack after my case, which effectively drew the attention on colbalt to myself.
He later asks redcolbalt to post more (a light jab). After your arrival, he pretty much ignores you unless he agrees with you. Then, after he mentions what you did with the "i'd vote me" thing is scummy, but quickly backs of with your explanation (which leaves a lot unanswered and we have no way of knowing if you are telling the truth). So thats blind acceptance, light defending, and light distancing.

You buddied with me
You distanced with yourself AND bv (the latter only has relevance if we get a scum flip)
You contradicted yourself about what you did/didn't know at the time of saying "Colbalt is scummy." If you truly became aware, then you would have explained what happened earlier, and not with a one liner that says "well, i'd still vote me if I didn't find out that I replaced redcolbalt." You also lied when you said "where did I say I would vote myself?" when it was pretty obvious what I meant.
We are in a circular argument. Its been a constant "why did you say this" + "I didn't know who I was!" + "You said right here that you did know" + "well, I didn't know at the time!" and on and on and on.

[ToastyToast]

I have a problem with sheeping. "I agree with this case" should be changed to "this is why I agree with this case. I also found this.."
You never really talked about bv and said you had "absolutely no opinion on him"

Fine. you didn't force it, but I didn't either. Its just getting nowhere, and its frustrating because I find what you did to be incredibly scummy, even after your explanations--even if I were to accept everything you've said as true.

I didn't think anything of it at the time. In fact, I too had no idea who you had replaced and had to make sure it was redcolbalt. so when I re-examined, I saw that and was liek "LOLWUT"

[ToastyToast]

@bv: I can't really prove any of my buddying points/ you as a possible scum-team with redcolbalt until one of you flips scum. However, the fact that you leaped to redcolbalt's defense, yet still seemed mindful of what he was doing at all times strikes me as scummy. Its the sort of things I would expect an IC to do when teaching a newbie how to play as scum.

[ToastyToast]

Why can't bv and verydark be scum together?

[ToastyToast]

I'm not taking it personally, it's just frustrating because I'm not scum and there's no apparent way to prove it to you.

Thats the nature of mafia for you

With regards to the idea of bv and myself as scum together (that was you, right?)
1) There are other players who have distanced themselves from one another (ex: yourself and SRG, you and verydark), so why focus in on the our relationship instead of the relationships other players have with one another

[ToastyToast]

You just named two relationships that involve me, why would I guess those as scumteams?

muffin-bv would be another example (but another kind; they are distancing in the sense that they spend little to no time talking about one another)

[ToastyToast]

Hah, took me awhile to figure out conftown too.

[ToastyToast]

muffin, you reallly didn't explain much at all as to why you think SRG is scum. At least not from what I read. So I'm going to have to take voided's side on tis one, actually.

[ToastyToast]

What didn't I explain? And why was it arbitrary?

Explain the connection b/w bv and SRG that you are finding. I don't see where you explained it...I understand PoE, but generally, if you're calling a scum-team, there is a link b/w the two players strong enough to warrant it.

[ToastyToast]

SRG is my strongest town read, so I disagree with you there.

Why don't you think Voided would hammer that way if he was scum?

[ToastyToast]

@muffin: my two suspects would stay the same

@verydark: I would be against that, only because its so early in the game. If there's a cop, they should only reveal their innocent results if said person is about to be lynched. If there's a bodyguard, they need to make their own choices, because controlling it when there are two scum means the other scum will make the kill.

@bv: Still don't understand this scummy angle thing. It has an angle, and that angle is that I have suspected you. In other words, its going to be biased.
Me and voided together?

[ToastyToast]

@muffin:
-BB is leaning town, yes.
-verydark is null. Just had bad feeling. After I iso'd him, bv and voided still came up on top for my most Likely scum-suspects.

[ToastyToast]

Stop being scummy, voided

[ToastyToast]

@bv: but voided is not under much pressure. BB was under A LOT of pressure

[ToastyToast]

I'm waiting to see what SRG, Toasty, and Muffin do, because three votes on me leaves me nothing to go off of. Speaking of SRG, Toast, and Muffin, do any of you have plans on hammering?

nope

[ToastyToast]

@bv:

I switched to Kad because I honestly believe he has less to offer the town than I do.

Translated: "I think he's town, but I'd rather lynch someone worthless that get lynched myself."
If he outright said it, someone would've hammered.

And yes, I think BB and kad were the only possibilities at that point.

[ToastyToast]

prod dodge.
I don't think VCA is useful yet, given that there have been no flips. Unless you're going for the "third vote" tell (which is like prehistoric), I don't see why you (muffin) are focussing on that for your reads other than what has actually been done

-Recolbalt was scummy, and only gave input once
-voided had the whole "I'd vote me," thing, which is scummy regardless of what actually happened. Even if one didn't know who they were replacing, looking back on that slot and calling it scummy says something.
-voided is not scummy for his hammer

Also, I'm not tunneling at all, Muffin. I'm going after my number one suspect. I'm also pursuing my suspicions of bv. This is in no shape or form tunneling. I feel saying such is a complete misrep of my play.

PEDIT: Tell me what is actually giving you strong town reads. You have yet to explain your reasons for why you suspect bv and SRG, and you haven't said much on your town reads either.

I don't want to turn this into a lecture, but I find the fact that you are relying on VCA and other mechanical elements of the game over things people have said/done to be suspect.

[ToastyToast]

Okay, I'll wait for the new explanation. See, I just find VCA as unreliable. Experienced scummers might encourage bussing, for example, which would throw off your 1-scum-on, 1-scum-off theory.

[ToastyToast]

When is deadline? bv is one of my scum reads, so I'm definitely voting him over BB if those are our only choices. I wish bv was more actively defending, as there are certainly holes in some of the reasons for voting him. In fact, its his lack of a strong presence that is concerning me most atm.

I agree with Muffin with the "standard tells" thing as well...it seems like a facade.

[ToastyToast]

Unvote:Vote:bvoigt

I don't see a sudden switch to voided happening anytime soon. I just hope bv's around to claim.

[ToastyToast]

If bv was a PR, I'm sure he'd be willing to claim that he was such before going on V/LA. Any other action would be anti-town. This is regardless of alignment.

@voided: Um, out of all the players here you have the most blatant connection with bv. He defended your replacement and he defended you. He also formed a counter-case on me.

[ToastyToast]

@voided: Um, out of all the players here you have the most blatant connection with bv. He defended your replacement and he defended you. He also formed a counter-case on me.

That was at Muffin, not you.
Also, the latter part is irrelevant to that.

I know. I let Muffin give his answer. And then I gave mine.

[ToastyToast]

Yeah, bv sure did a super-town thing by refusing to claim when he was at L-1 and had to go on V/LA during deadline.

Ugh, I'm like 90% sure that BB is town, but I guess we'll see.

[ToastyToast]

@SRG: My thoughts on bv are the same as my thoughts on him yesterday.

bv and voided are still looking like the scum team to me.
PEDIT: Even with the last post considered
Also, I was only on one wagon where town flipped. WTF u talkin about?

Also, I'm in agreement with SRG that we should sort out our thoughts on each player first b4 massclaiming. The main advantage of a massclaim in a setup like this is that we basically get two confirmed town with results.

I'm not saying wait all day but I want to hear from everyone first. At this point having 2conf town is more valuable then having hidden PR's

[ToastyToast]

Actually, let's claim now.

bv, you claim first. I'll claim second.

[ToastyToast]

scum HAS to claim VT. There are only 2 town PR's and claiming such makes them a target.

Rolecop's allow scum to find PR's w/o needing them to claim.

Does that answer your question?

[ToastyToast]

Ah. I guess I misread the set-up. I thought town had 2/3 of the listed PR's

[ToastyToast]

2 of the following (no duplicates possible): (Cop 25%, Doctor 25%, Jailkeeper 25%, Vanilla Townie 25%)

Wow thats a major thing to miss. Sorry!

I'm the Jailkeeper.
N1 I jailed verydark (that was what the Hm.. was about. I thought it was a possibility that verydark could be scum in a very good position, hence would have performed the NK). Given that there was still a NK, my suspicion on him subsided.

N2 I jailed SRG because I was positive scum would try to kill him.

[ToastyToast]

@verydark: We are in lylo. Plz remove your vote.

[ToastyToast]

@muffin:
-BB is leaning town, yes.
-verydark is null.

J

ust had bad feeling.

A

fter

I

iso'd him, bv and voided still came up on top for my most

L

ikely scum-suspects.

Forgot about my crumb

[ToastyToast]

SRG: You still want to claim last, correct?

bv wants you to claim(via popcorn), so I would since you are on

[ToastyToast]

@SRG: I'd rather keep my target quiet. It all depends on today's lynch, and if I publicly announce what I'm going to do, they will just kill will the other person (which is why we have to get this lynch correct).

SRG is conf town because I JK'd him and there was still a kill, AND he claimed cop (sorry for blocking you )
verydark is also very likely town based on my N1 action.

I'm definitely seeing bv either way. verydark-voided scum-team doesn't make a lot of sense to me. A team with bv-??? makes sense either way. So he's are set-in-stone scum. Man, voided just did that long-ass post. jfoeigjuarhhfd its a throw-away for who the last scum is. One of the two of us are going to be dead tomorrow :/

[ToastyToast]

Ok, I see your point. Even if they decide to No-kill, your investigate will still take place. Sweet!

[ToastyToast]

But if your scum crazy gambiting....you GDIF

[ToastyToast]

Are you guys opposed to our plan? Do you agree that 2/3 of bv-voided-verydark MUST be scum?

[ToastyToast]

I'm going to take a day to think it all over, then I'll put a vote down...

[ToastyToast]

I read voided's post and all I really got from it was that the fact that both have a semi-wary stance on bv just confirms him as scum.

Also leaning verydark as the town, so I think jailkeeping voided will be fine.

[ToastyToast]

vote:bv310

[ToastyToast]

ugh. wrong "bv"

Unvote:Vote:bvoigt

[ToastyToast]

Unless your going to tell me that voided-verydark is the scum team, from my PoV bv has the highest chance of being scum.

Do you think SRG is scum? Do you think I am scum? If your answer to both is no, then verydark and bv MUST be scum in your eyes and as such you should have no problems with lynching bv. That is, of course, unless you feel that verydark getting lynched = you win.

[ToastyToast]

SRG, tell me who you want to investigate.

[ToastyToast]

Toasty, please jail Verydark, i shall investigate voided (incase you missed it).

Deal. So many scum claims in the last page! lol

[ToastyToast]

Actually, the policy stems from not wanting to give information about books in a series if I'm not reading the first book in said series, unless the person's already read up to that point and doesn't have the recent book.

Actually, I have a very similar policy, mostly with tv shows and games though. My partner is always asking me questions about the outcomes if it's a show i've watched and am showing him - he was particularly bad with death note on this making guesses and trying to get an answer out of me, but i refuse. I hate spoiling things like that for someone, even when they've asked.

haha I'm the same way but I always accidentally spoil things for myself. Like i won't tell you what happens in Game of Thrones, but I knew who died b4 reading it (dam you wikipedia!)

Also, partner. <3

[ToastyToast]

YAYYYY

[ToastyToast]

Wow SRG I'm so glad you were obvtown or else idk what would've happened. U r definitely mvp for that gambit.

Anyways, I caught the scum-team early. WHy wasn't I killed? Hid that well?

player evaluations:
Kad: You lurked and pretty much asked for that lynch
Haze: Sucks that you got killed N1, but if anything that just shows that you were a threat. Definitely have potential
BBmolla:I feel like you are a little too self-defeatist. The solution to getting out of a lynch is to fight back/make cases/defend, not just let everyone gang up on you. I think once you get out of that mindset you'll be a better player. I basically cleared you because I knew you had come from another site, but that doesn't work all the time.
zMuffinMan: Great replacement. Newbie camp graduate.
bvoigt: I know your IC so don't really need this, but i feel like if you were more active/detailed with your cases it would have been much harder to see you as scum. Coming to voided's defense didn't help
ToastyToast: Sexy
VoidedMafia: That whole "I'd lynch me" thing was very strange, but you did well to survive until lylo after replacing into a scummy slot. You also stuck to your guns/didn't get wishy-washy with your cases
SomeRandomGuy: YAYYY we wonnn! Another newbie camp graduate.
verydark: You can say some scummy things, but ultimately my actions should've cleared you. I also thought you were WAY townier than voided and bv

[ToastyToast]

BTW, my name's coming up soon for my first modded game (open que). If anyone is interested, I will be doing a mayo clinic setup. Its a setup where everyone is a PR. Let me know!

[ToastyToast]

@drshotty: Thanks . I have good games and bad games, generally because I turn very scummy if I get frustrated at a player. I've only been scum once and didn't last very long, so thanks! Oh, and I played my first game in The Master Hand hydra. You were in that C9 game as an SK

@bv:Yes, I was incredibly biased. But it worked

[ToastyToast]

Toasty, who'd you jailkeep Night 1? Shotty says it was me, but I thought you said verydark.

D1:Verydark
D2: SRG
D3: Verydark