Newbie 1117(Town Wins)

[SomeRandomGuy]

Right, I think I need to read through everything again from the start to finish, I really don't want to see another mislynch and I feel that is a strong possibility at the moment if even the smallest details are overlooked. What we have here is essentially an argument which could blow the game open, or mean nothing and i'm having a wee bit of trouble really distinguishing which of the two it is and furthermore which side of the argument comes from town.

3 minutes after I post, Muffin notes that I just said that I'd vote RedCobalt (and therefore myself) if I replaced in.
I catch up to page 7 and post my reads then. I still don't know I replaced cobalt, also evidenced by how I talk as if he's still there.

This is the main issue with the argument, Voided - the idea that you posted your reads without seeing that and that the post only a wee bit above yours from Shotty was seemingly missed too but again, it's not garunteed that you'd have seen either and your story is plausible. Who is guilty here is something i'm still uncertain of but with the people involved here, i'm unlikely to believe it is town on town at this point.

[Voidedmafia]

Remember, I made every attempt to avoid looking at the most recent pages, including moving back once I knew my post was sent. If it had went to show my most recent post, I made sure not to look anywhere above it. Granted, there were some posts made while I was making the 2nd post of mine since I didn't write all of it in a short timespan, but they aren't related to the problem at hand.

Dry said I replaced Cobalt (dammit I keep moving the "l" around) on page 11, and I was only up to page 7. Given this, how could I have seen it?

And it seems you believe that whether or not my argument holds will determine how the rest (or most of the rest) of the game will go, correct?

[SomeRandomGuy]

And it seems you believe that whether or not my argument holds will determine how the rest (or most of the rest) of the game will go, correct?

What I feel is that if someone involved in this is scum, we'll be on our way to finding the second one also, at least we'll have more information, the type the Kad lynch left us without. The kad lynch certainly must have been the one that the scum ideally would have wanted to go through, after all it's the one that gave us nothing, i'm going to look at that again also i think.

[verydark]

Wow, so I've re-read the entire game, and my head is spinning.

And Muffin, it does appear I took your comment out of context, I was composing my argument based on memory and quickly looked for posts that verified my argument, that comment on second glance does appear to be worded hypothetically, I missed that. I apologize, that was a misrep that I'm willing to admit, but it wasn't with bad intentions.

Also, after re-reading the whole voided knowing/not knowing who he replaced, I am inclined to believe it was all just a giant clusterf*ck of poorly timed and poorly worded retorts. Not off my radar entirely, but I'm not using this as a scum argument anymore.

We're entering the phase where everything is being super scrutinized, I have 2 questions for everyone, just to get some opinions.

1)

It seems like we're accepting that NK on Haze was just because he wasn't really on the radar, a random kill, if you will. I've scrutinized his posts and peoples reactions to him, and I seriously have found nothing of use. Is it a waste of time to research his death? What's everyone's thoughts on Haze, and why he was Nk'd.

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

I didn't plan on soft claiming PR until someone mentioned that it appeared I was doing it.

It's not the most townie thing, claiming a PR, and I can understand that, which is why I didn't fully go through with it. Had I actually been maf, I probably would have ended up claiming a Power Role, because then things would make more sense.

He even says if he was Mafia he would claim PR. But he claimed VT, as a diversionary tactic perhaps??? What are your opinions on the whole soft claim debacle?

Those are 2 things that jump out for value in making a decision. I really just would like to read some general thoughts from everyone on where they stand with the happenings of D1.

...and finally. I don't know how I missed this the first time around, but who is this, and why?

@Mod: I am voting kad, not voided

@Muffin: lol my vote has been on kad, thats mod error

My point about the newb card is that....pretty much everyone here is a newb. As such it can't be used to distinguish one person from another. Everyone should be treated as players on the same level, as all of them are learning the game at the same time. As such, kad is coming off as scum among a group of newbies, whereas other newbies are considered to be town. Saying "oh, they're just a noob"=then only the IC and SE actions should be considered.

[SomeRandomGuy]

1) It might be worth wondering why certain people didn't get killed by scum as opposed to 'why did they kill Haze' but it's not going to lead to anything that isn't going to create a whole load of WIFOM.

2) I don't know what to think on that, but it doesn't sit right as i've mentioned extensively before.

The Master Hand was Toasy, the next post made was by him appologising to the mod - I believe it to be a hydra account and he forgot to log over.

[bvoigt]

I'm leery of BB's VT claim, because that would mean there are 2 more VT's left, but 2 mafia, and 2 PRs. So out of the 3 people whose roles have been revealed, they are

ALL

VT? I don't like those odds.

BTW, I think this argument would be an example of Appeal to Probability. I don't really find it scummy, just fallacious.

We're entering the phase where everything is being super scrutinized, I have 2 questions for everyone, just to get some opinions.

1)

It seems like we're accepting that NK on Haze was just because he wasn't really on the radar, a random kill, if you will. I've scrutinized his posts and peoples reactions to him, and I seriously have found nothing of use. Is it a waste of time to research his death? What's everyone's thoughts on Haze, and why he was Nk'd.

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

1. Yeah, he wasn't really a high-profile player, but he would have been tough for scum to lynch. They probably killed him for that reason, or maybe because they didn't want the kill to be analyzed.

2. There are some reasonable explanations if he is town. Since he claimed VT, scum might think that getting him lynched is worth the chance of him being a power role. With that being said, I do think the real reason is that he's scum.

What do you guys think of my points in #423?

[ToastyToast]

@bv: I can't really prove any of my buddying points/ you as a possible scum-team with redcolbalt until one of you flips scum. However, the fact that you leaped to redcolbalt's defense, yet still seemed mindful of what he was doing at all times strikes me as scummy. Its the sort of things I would expect an IC to do when teaching a newbie how to play as scum.

[bvoigt]

@bv: I can't really prove any of my buddying points/ you as a possible scum-team with redcolbalt until one of you flips scum. However, the fact that you leaped to redcolbalt's defense, yet still seemed mindful of what he was doing at all times strikes me as scummy. Its the sort of things I would expect an IC to do when teaching a newbie how to play as scum.

zMuffinMan also disagreed with your case on Red. Obviously, all 3 of us can't be scum. As for the second part, well, I wasn't convinced by your case, but overall I had a pretty null read.

[BBmolla]

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

I thought this was fairly obvious. The reason they kept me alive is because of all the suspicion on me. Why would they kill someone who half the town thinks is scum? That makes no sense. I mean, think about it. As mafia would you rather kill:

A. A player who a lot are suspicious of who is almost confirmed not to be a PR.
OR
B. A player who nobody suspects and could potentially be a PR.

Night killing me would have been stupid on their part and the fact you had to even ask this makes me wonder.

[SomeRandomGuy]

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

I thought this was fairly obvious. The reason they kept me alive is because of all the suspicion on me. Why would they kill someone who half the town thinks is scum? That makes no sense. I mean, think about it. As mafia would you rather kill:

A. A player who a lot are suspicious of who is almost confirmed not to be a PR.
OR
B. A player who nobody suspects and could potentially be a PR.

Night killing me would have been stupid on their part and the fact you had to even ask this makes me wonder.

Questioning it is not scummy, BB.
Taking you out would have created a lot of suspicion probably on quite a few actual town players, your soft claiming is the closest thing scum have to information on a PR and whilst you retracted it it COULD have been been a way to hide that you actually do have one and decided that announcing it early in the game was a bad idea.
I mean, automatically assuming that you've made gameplay errors when you could have actually made some smart moves that could either 1) Paint you as a PR or 2) Paint you as scum is a dangerous road, for scum and for town, depending of course on your alignment.
Either way that's a great load of WIFOM you just created.

[BBmolla]

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

I thought this was fairly obvious. The reason they kept me alive is because of all the suspicion on me. Why would they kill someone who half the town thinks is scum? That makes no sense. I mean, think about it. As mafia would you rather kill:

A. A player who a lot are suspicious of who is almost confirmed not to be a PR.
OR
B. A player who nobody suspects and could potentially be a PR.

Night killing me would have been stupid on their part and the fact you had to even ask this makes me wonder.

Questioning it is not scummy, BB.
Taking you out would have created a lot of suspicion probably on quite a few actual town players, your soft claiming is the closest thing scum have to information on a PR and whilst you retracted it it COULD have been been a way to hide that you actually do have one and decided that announcing it early in the game was a bad idea.
I mean, automatically assuming that you've made gameplay errors when you could have actually made some smart moves that could either 1) Paint you as a PR or 2) Paint you as scum is a dangerous road, for scum and for town, depending of course on your alignment.
Either way that's a great load of WIFOM you just created.

Hm. Didn't even see it that way. Makes sense.
I still think it would have been more beneficial for them to try to kill a/the PR though.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I like that you didn't try to rubbish that possible view.

[Voidedmafia]

Questioning it is not scummy, BB.
Taking you out would have created a lot of suspicion probably on quite a few actual town players, your soft claiming is the closest thing scum have to information on a PR and whilst you retracted it it COULD have been been a way to hide that you actually do have one and decided that announcing it early in the game was a bad idea.
I mean, automatically assuming that you've made gameplay errors when you could have actually made some smart moves that could either 1) Paint you as a PR or 2) Paint you as scum is a dangerous road, for scum and for town, depending of course on your alignment.
Either way that's a great load of WIFOM you just created.

Thanks for continuing to make me doubt how I should read BB, SRG. Thanks a lot.

I like that you didn't try to rubbish that possible view.

You mean, like, completely disregard it? He'd be a fool not to, WIFOM or not.

Also, after re-reading the whole voided knowing/not knowing who he replaced, I am inclined to believe it was all just a giant clusterf*ck of poorly timed and poorly worded retorts. Not off my radar entirely, but I'm not using this as a scum argument anymore.

Poorly timed?

1)

It seems like we're accepting that NK on Haze was just because he wasn't really on the radar, a random kill, if you will. I've scrutinized his posts and peoples reactions to him, and I seriously have found nothing of use. Is it a waste of time to research his death? What's everyone's thoughts on Haze, and why he was Nk'd.

He's the perfect niche for scum to NK: Not scummy enough to be considered (nearly all of us had him at some level of towniness), not town enough nor spoke enough to really get us to point fingers at one another (as in, his death didn't make us really suspect anyone nor heavily change our reads), and he left us squat to work with; not as bad as kad, mind, but near-useless nonetheless.

Could we possibly find something if we super-scrutinize each and every post of his? Possibly, but it'd be a waste of time.

...That, or scum was PR-fishing and got a dud.

2)

Since BB beat around the bush a lot as to potentially having a power role early in the game, and then claiming he's a VT at hammer time....why wasn't he the one that was NK'd. No one else slipped up like that. Could it be because he's actually

neither

a PR or VT?

It's certainly possible.

SRG does bring up a good point in that BB kicked up quite the WIFOM with his actions (or non-actions), and this really makes it worse.

I didn't plan on soft claiming PR until someone mentioned that it appeared I was doing it.

It's not the most townie thing, claiming a PR, and I can understand that, which is why I didn't fully go through with it. Had I actually been maf, I probably would have ended up claiming a Power Role, because then things would make more sense.

He even says if he was Mafia he would claim PR. But he claimed VT, as a diversionary tactic perhaps??? What are your opinions on the whole soft claim debacle?

I was gonna ask why a PR claim wouldn't have been better, but I realized that it'd just put him even more in the hotseat if someone CC'd, and that's NOT what you want when you're at L-1 and someone's gonna hammer.

Still, I think that going along with it was kinda stupid, partly because of all the WIFOM we have, and partly because of how it affects reads. I know my read on him is currently nullscum/null, but undoubtedly one of you have him as scummier than that (well, excluding you, verdark, since we know you read him as scummy).

[zMuffinMan]

I've been kind of lazy in regards to this game. It's been at the back of my mind but doing ISOs is so boring that I generally procrastinate as much as I can.

So, if BB is town, I'm almost 100% sure that one of bv and verydark is scum. There is no way they are scum together, but one of them is. And I still have a town read on BB after reading up on the end of D1. This theory is also supported by VCA, actually.

What I'm trying to figure out is where the scum on the kad lynch was. I don't think it was Voided. I don't think it was BB. Haze is dead. That leaves Toast and SRG. Problem is, I have a town read on SRG, and Toast-scum is seeming all too easy at the moment.

First thing I want to do later today is read up on {bv, toast, srg, verydark}.

[drmyshottyizsik]

You guys wouldn't happen to want a vote count or anything would you >.> Sorry for the delay

.|Vote count 10|.

BBmolla-2(bvoigt, VeryDark)

L-2

VoidedMafia-1(ToastyToast)
SomeRandomGuy-0
verydark-0
ToastyToast-0
zMuffinMan-1(SomeRandomGuy)
bvoigt-0

Not Voting-0

With 7 alive it takes 4 votes to lynch

If there are any problems tell me.

[ToastyToast]

Why can't bv and verydark be scum together?

[zMuffinMan]

voting patterns. I don't see scum pushing for the BB lynch so hard two days in a row. At least one of them is town.

[BBmolla]

Out of bvoigt and verydark which one would you rather lynch?

I've thought of them both as scummy for a while, but I thought it was just me. The only people I'd feel safe lynching today is either of them, or maybe Voided if someone comes up with a logical argument as to why he seems scummy.

[bvoigt]

Out of bvoigt and verydark which one would you rather lynch?

I've thought of them both as scummy for a while, but I thought it was just me. The only people I'd feel safe lynching today is either of them, or maybe Voided if someone comes up with a logical argument as to why he seems scummy.

It seems pretty convenient to say this right after Muffin called us scummy. Why haven't you tried to make a case on verydark or myself before you knew other people agreed?

[verydark]

@BB

So just because me and bv are eying you as scum, you would rather lynch one of us. I think this argument that we are scum buddies just because we have been pushing you is ridiculous. You have made no case against us. I don't need to defend myself- I was ready to lynch you on D1, and as Kad flipped town, and Haze was Nk'd, nothing new has really come to light to make me change my mind.

What's more suspicious to me than me "tunelling" you (a.k.a. being confident), is you and muffin trying to put the spotlight on me and bv, when you've made no case against us in the past, or present, except that we agree on some things.

So go ahead, put the spotlight on me. If there is something I've done that you find scummy, I would appreciate the opportunity to explain. (That goes for everyone)

Obviously you can't FoS yourself, so I would expect you to try something like this. I just figured you'd try to make an argument against someone that voted to lynch Kad...a townie.

You and Muffin voted (Muffin was heavily leaning that way) to lynch Kad, as well as Voided. Since you're my top 3 scum picks, I thought you would have attacked Toasty or SRG for the mislynch.

Interesting.

[zMuffinMan]

Out of bvoigt and verydark which one would you rather lynch?

Probably bv. I looked over verydark in ISO, he reads as genuinely town. Just really, really confused.

I'm still having a hard time seeing bv-scum, though. I'm also having a hard time seeing possible partnerships with bv. I can't see toast-scum being his partner. It's unlikely that Voided-scum is his partner. That leaves SRG, who has been one of my strongest town reads this game.

[Voidedmafia]

Out of bvoigt and verydark which one would you rather lynch?

I've thought of them both as scummy for a while, but I thought it was just me. The only people I'd feel safe lynching today is either of them, or maybe Voided if someone comes up with a logical argument as to why he seems scummy.

It seems pretty convenient to say this right after Muffin called us scummy. Why haven't you tried to make a case on verydark or myself before you knew other people agreed?

Or me, to a lesser extent?

Out of bvoigt and verydark which one would you rather lynch?

Probably bv. I looked over verydark in ISO, he reads as genuinely town. Just really, really confused.

I'm still having a hard time seeing bv-scum, though. I'm also having a hard time seeing possible partnerships with bv. I can't see toast-scum being his partner. It's unlikely that Voided-scum is his partner. That leaves SRG, who has been one of my strongest town reads this game.

Then let's change the question.

Out of Toasty, BB, or me, which one would you rather lynch?

[zMuffinMan]

Toasty.

btw, bv, never got an answer yesterday. Did you have a town read on kad or was there some other reason you were voting BB over kad?

[BBmolla]

@verydark and bvoigt
Any case I made on you would have easily been arguable with "Well you're just mad cause we're voting you."

[BBmolla]

EBWOP: Real fast, what do people think of a possible Toasty/bvoigt scumteam?

bvoigt has been constantly on Toasty, distancing them. They were also on opposite sides of the BB/Kad wagons, with Toasty on Kad and bvoigt on me.