Mini 1175: Iowa Mafia (Game Over!)

[Final Destination]

Akira's reads are solid. Akira, vote Mikemike with us if you would.

He's town. This wagon is scumfilled, notably Archbaeob who's playing the cheeky "too scum to be scum" card as hard as he can.

[bvoigt]

Vote Count 1.12

Akira (5)- Archaist, earworm, hiplop, archaebob, Zachrulez
mikemike778 (3)- bgg1996, Greymarble, Final Destination
hiplop (2)- monk, Empking
earworm (1)- mikemike778
Zachrulez (1)- Akira
Archaist (0)
bgg1996 (0)
monk (0)
Twistedspoon (0)
Final Destination (0)
archaebob (0)
Greymarble (0)
Empking (0)
Not Voting (1)- Twistedspoon

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
The deadline for Day 1 is June 14 at 9:00 PM CST.

[bvoigt]

You have just under 5 days until the deadline.

[archaebob]

This wagon is scumfilled, notably Archbaeob who's playing the cheeky "too scum to be scum" card as hard as he can.

What reads of his are solid and why?

And chainsaw noted. If you're going to defend Akira, you'll be better served by attacking my arguments than throwing out cute little quips about what cards you think I'm playing.

Why is mikemike scum?

Akira, it's really important to you that we all

understand

that you don't have a town read on bgg, isn't it? Like, it's not that you have a TOWN read on him, you just think that we shouldn't lynch him for obvious sarcasm.

Thanks for making sure that we understood that.

What's wrong here? Over-clarification? Can't you just accept that there are some players who prefer to clarify their statements? I hate this kind of tell, because it's just playstyle, has nothing to do with alignment.

Yes. Over-clarification. And no, I can't.

Your posts feel contrived and overly thought out in places where I would expect more fluidity and confidence from a town player. It's not a playstyle thing, because the whole point is that individual sentences and phrases jump out as being incongruous and scum-motivated.

This isn't a "tell" in the way that we often think about them. It's not some mathematical equation of "ooh, you qualified a statement, scum points for you."

Qualifying a statement is often legitimate clarification. It is the role of the scumhunter to read posts and decide when it isn't.

I think you're scum for the same reason that I thought this guy was scum.

Now, this case is less extreme because you're a little better at playing this game than he was, but I think you can see that you aren't going to dissuade me by attacking the legitimacy of my method.

I don't know Akira, could it?

Could it be considered a slight scumtell that you are worried about requalifying every statement you make out of existence to make your fabricated opinions sound unassailable?

Again. That was a new scumtell, I was unsure about it and I wanted to hear the rest of the town's opinion before going after it.

My problem is not with what you did, but with the feeble and defensive tone with which you did it.

There's no deliberate, conscious, scum motivation for that vote, no. But I know from my own experience that tasks like pressuring someone to put up an avatar jump out to the scum mentality because they are objective and productive looking.

I disagree. Scum are cautious, they don't do that kind of stuff, in my experience. It's risky and pointless. For town to do it, it's just a tad bit silly, I'll admit.

Scum don't consciously do that stuff if they can avoid it. Scum don't lose if they can avoid it either.

And your defense of this is WIFOM in the first place. I mean, talk about playing the "too scummy to be scum" card.

Yeah I know, they really suck, don't they? Especially when the town as a whole is competent enough to make fabricating content harder than usual.

You know, for a second, I thought you not having any scumreads was suspicious. But once you made sure I knew it was

annoying

, I felt a lot better about you.

So this is a towntell, correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong, I was being sarcastic. That entire section of your post sounds forced to me. As if you wanted to reinforce the idea that you were town by telling us how annoyed you are at not having any reads. That would feel weird for a town player to write.

Do you see the bussing or do you not see the bussing? Are you agreeing to be conciliatory, or do you actually agree?

Bussing is a serious charge. If you see it, then it should deeply call into question your town read of hiplop. Town opinions don't work the way you are trying to pretend they do.

I find it pretty strange. I've been often accused (in other games too) of thinking about scumteams too early in the game. "You should concentrate on the individual on D1, not the group" they say. But the bussing accusation which is so frequently used is based on scumteams too, but that's all fine and dandy.

Fine, as a stand alone point, I can accept this explanation. In context, however, I remain unpersuaded.

Glad to know you

think

you can do that for him. Because it's very important that the town be privy to every machination of your thought process. Almost as important as softening the assertiveness of everything you see with words like "think."

Listen bob, you're nitpicking, over-analyzing, and making mountains out of molehills. Also, why is it all out now? Have you been hiding all these accusations until now?
I'll answer: No. You wanted more evidence to vote for me, so you went on a 100% biased ISO quest, chose some tidbits of my posts and molded them into scumtells.

It seems like you already answered your own questions.

Another funny aspect of your post is that you start out by saying "On reread, I noticed this:" and then list all these tinytells which aren't even true. So you happened to pass by all this stuff only on reread?

You caught my attention from the start, which is why you were included in my original list of players who I would be happy lynching.

When I changed my mind about hiplop, I went back and read the thread again. You once again caught my attention, and this time I was able to more clearly formulate why.

[Final Destination]

Twistedspoon is scum.

I could unvote anytime from this wagon and vote Akira. But i'm not. So don't say this is forced

Here, Twistedspoon is responding to accusations that he was forced onto the hiplop wagon. He denies it (multiple times).

oh, and you should probably claim now hiplop

Hiplop goes to L-1. He asks for the claim.

and Hiplop has always been a suspect although his place in my suspect list has varied at times

Once again, TS reiterates that hiplop is a suspect. TS is seriously obsessed with making sure we know he has been suspecting hiplop. Why is this? It's because

Twistedspoon knows hiplop is flipping town.

And TS looks like he snuck ont he wagon near the end, it'll look scummy. Thus, he's broacasting loud and clear (over and over) how long he has suspected TS for, with the hopes that, by grounding himself as an early advocate of the wagon, he can dodge suspicion. Notice how he also carefully qualifies said suspicions while reinforcing them, with lines like "his place...has varied at times"

Unfortunately, I'm a VT.

Go after TS and mikemike, really all i can say

hiplop claims VT and offers some vapid accusation of hiplop. This is not stuff you unvote or retract suspicions based on. It's hammer material. How does TS respond?

^ I asked you to explain your suspicions of myself

we're not ending the day until hiplop justifies his baseless conjecture on mike and myself

The second post is most important. If TS thinks hiplop is scum, why does he care about hearing him justify his presumably bad reads? They'll fly out the window and have zero credibility the second he flips scum. The answer is because, once again,

Twistedspoon knows hiplop is flipping town.

He KNOWS those reads are going to have cred tomorrow, and so he wants them squashed today before hiplop is dead and gone.

^I find hiplop scummy

that is why I'm on the wagon

Post claim, TS still finds hiplop scummy.

hiplop asks why. TS gives a response that reaffirms hiplop's scumminess. Steam is dissapating from the wagon

...a few irrelevant posts happen (none of them from hiplop)...

but the hiplop reaction is surprisingly unlike scumlop when he gets lynched

but hiplop is still probtown now

This is the nail in the coffin.

Twistedspoon has done a complete 180 on his hiplop read without hiplop posting inbetween.

This is 100% scum behavior becuase it proves TS is simply making his reads up as he goes without having actual evidence to support them, which is something scum do because they have perfect information, and thus don't need evidence.

TS tries to justify himself, but all his justifications rely on hiplop's meta and claim. However, we know these cannot be TS's reasons, since he stated he still found hiplop scummy post-claim. TS is thinking these reasons up ex-post-facto to cover his mistake. It is not part of his natural thought process.

Unvote, Vote: Twistedspoon.

[Final Destination]

Zach, please join on this wagon. We are sorry things got out of control - it won't happen again. You were right about TS.

[Akira]

Well, bob, if you're going to lynch me based on my way of speech, then I'm going to stop wasting my time.

Regarding Twisted, I like the case. I have never put much thought into Twisted, and after ISOing him several times I never noticed his scummy stance on hiplop, probably because I was looking at his posts without looking at the context.
Twisted wasn't on my scumteam list because, assuming three-man scumteams, the only possible buddy seemed to be mikemike.
But hey, what about bussing?

VOTE: Twisted I agree with FD's points and I like the case. Twisted is scummy. This is much better than relying on my list.
Of course mikemike is his buddy though.

[Twistedspoon]

I see what zach says now about how FD finds changing reads scummy

so I'm scummy for changing my read on hiplop?

well you just backpeddaled your read on me compadré
what does that make you then?

It is not part of his natural thought process.

Unvote, Vote: Twistedspoon.

so If i'm town (which I am) I'm a brain damaged player?
thanks

your case holds no water and changing reads is inherantly town if anything

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: TS

[Twistedspoon]

I was waiting for that

classic empking

does that game that just finished show how my play has been similar to this game?

[Empking]

I was waiting for that

classic empking

Why?

does that game that just finished show how my play has been similar to this game?

Your interactions are scum interactions.

[archaebob]

@ FD -

Please answer my questions about Akira and Mikemike.

@ bgg -

where the hell are you?

[archaebob]

I'm not thrilled with the activity of bgg, earworm, Greymarble, mikemike, or Empking.

If Empking was scum, I don't think we would have any way of knowing. Read his iso and note how little alignment revealing content he has posted. People need to pick targets and give reads on specific posts, I have a hunch at least one of the scum is lurking and getting a free pass. I won't be happy with any lynch until everyone has staked out a position.

[Twistedspoon]

If Empking was scum, I don't think we would have any way of knowing. Read his iso and note how little alignment revealing content he has posted. People need to pick targets and give reads on specific posts, I have a hunch at least one of the scum is lurking and getting a free pass. I won't be happy with any lynch until everyone has staked out a position.

this is why peaf was town

told you guys

[archaebob]

@ Twistedspoon -

Could you do me a favor and give me a short paragraph of your reads on each of the players I mentioned? At least 2-3 sentences for each. It'll help me decide whether or not I buy the case on you. Don't try and give me what I want to hear, just be completely and utterly honest in your hunches, no varnish or filtering. If you are town, it is in your interest to do this.

[earworm]

So I like the Akira votes. Nice to see that's finally happening.

FD's case on TS smells like a chainsaw, but it's also on one of my scumreads and the case actually was pretty good. :/

@FD: explain why Akira is town.

Archaebob is town.

Akira's vote on TS also smells of opportunism.

[Twistedspoon]

yeah I'll do all this

give me a min, my other game finished night phase

[Twistedspoon]

@ Twistedspoon -

Could you do me a favor and give me a short paragraph of your reads on each of the players I mentioned? At least 2-3 sentences for each. It'll help me decide whether or not I buy the case on you. Don't try and give me what I want to hear, just be completely and utterly honest in your hunches, no varnish or filtering. If you are town, it is in your interest to do this.

I'm not thrilled with the activity of bgg, earworm, Greymarble, mikemike, or Empking.

these players?

bgg is my favourite lynch today (sorry empking)
His Iso was full of fencesitting and 'finding scumtells' but never voting with them. His play has been inconsistent

earworm is surprisingly null. Probably town if I had to classify him now though. not sure about the hiplop wagon but apart from that he makes sense most of the time

mikemike I'm leaning strongly town on. I'm not seeing the case on him and I remember him finding some good catches. Also, the fact that hiplop's saying I'm scum with him only farthers my town read since I hardly expect hiplop to be correct at this stage (and know he isn't on me).
I don't remember him being as opportunistic as say, Akira amongst others

which reminds me

VOTE: Akira

soooo opportunistic on my wagon. We'll see how he plays. If he does a post like this and t's consistent then I might unvote

Marble? He started off great. I'm leaning town on him but I've been real dissapointed by his activity recently. He said monk was town at the start which I see as a townie thing (where did monk go?)

Empking. ugh. He only ever turns up to vote me and doesn't seem to provide as much depth, content or reads on others as i'd like. If he was scum I'd have no clue who his buddy would be since he seems so distant from everone though. I'd like his reads on others and his summary on the case on me apart from how hiplop and I are a scum-match made in heaven

[Final Destination]

so I'm scummy for changing my read on hiplop?

It's okay if you change your reads. However, you need an affirmative reason to do so (e.g., something the person posted or a massive re-read you conducted). You don't have one. hiplop did not post inbetween the time you changed your read, and your 180 post was 2-3 lines long, so you clearly did not reread. You simply decided on a whim that you wanted to call hiplop town ... which is something scum do.

well you just backpeddaled your read on me compadré
what does that make you then?

Yes, because you made a series of extremely scummy posts since the last time we updated our read on you. hiplop, on the other hand, didn't make ANY posts between you changing him from scum to town. That's the difference.

@FD: explain why Akira is town.

@ FD -

Please answer my questions about Akira and Mikemike.

It will be answered, just chillax.

P-Edit: Surprise, surprise ... Twistedspoon suddenly makes a full court push on the competing wagon with the most steam. This is a clear scum evasion play - he doesn't have a large wagon right now (yet), so he's trying to push Akira through before one can form on him. Don't let it happen - TS is scum, and we're not letting him get away.

[Twistedspoon]

okay this is AGM

we might be able to talk sense now

my hiplop rethink was fast and looked odd. sure

but I know scumlop having played with him twice

that claim and hiplop rage. That was not scumlop.
If you don't believe me iso him in the games I provided

[archaebob]

bgg is my favourite lynch today (sorry empking)
His Iso was full of fencesitting and 'finding scumtells' but never voting with them. His play has been inconsistent

If bgg is your favorite lynch, then vote him and quote him. Analyze passages for author's intent. You know, like English class. Can you demonstrate to me the inconsistency in his play?

earworm is surprisingly null. Probably town if I had to classify him now though. not sure about the hiplop wagon but apart from that he makes sense most of the time

He's

surprisingly

null? What does that mean? Did you have an expectation at some previous time that he

wouldn't

be null?

And if he's null, why would you classify him as probably town? That means he isn't null at all.

Also, what is your criticism exactly of Earworm's role on the hiplop wagon?

And finally, do you consider "making sense" to be a town tell? What does that mean to you?

mikemike I'm leaning strongly town on. I'm not seeing the case on him and I remember him finding some good catches. Also, the fact that hiplop's saying I'm scum with him only farthers my town read since I hardly expect hiplop to be correct at this stage (and know he isn't on me).
I don't remember him being as opportunistic as say, Akira amongst others

Could you help me remember what some of these good catches are?

which reminds me

VOTE: Akira

soooo opportunistic on my wagon. We'll see how he plays.

If he does a post like this and t's consistent then I might unvote

What do you mean by that last sentence? And why are you feeding him what he has to do in order to earn an unvote from you?

Marble? He started off great. I'm leaning town on him but I've been real dissapointed by his activity recently. He said monk was town at the start which I see as a townie thing (where did monk go?)

I agree with you on this.

Empking. ugh. He only ever turns up to vote me and doesn't seem to provide as much depth, content or reads on others as i'd like. If he was scum I'd have no clue who his buddy would be since he seems so distant from everone though. I'd like his reads on others and his summary on the case on me apart from how hiplop and I are a scum-match made in heaven

I suppose this make sense.

-----------------------

Please respond to all my questions

in depth

, you're really helping me understand your play this game.

[archaebob]

@ FD -

Answer my questions now if you want any cooperation from me today. 1/3 of your play has been reasonably pro-town and content generating, but the rest has been deliberately antagonistic, fluffy, and laced with stunningly unwarranted conceit. I don't know when you think you were elected mayor here, but even the players who are tolerating you are not impressed.

Why is akira town?
Why is mikemike scum?

and

what do you think of earworm?

[earworm]

@Archeabob: what do you think of me?

[archaebob]

@ earworm - I think you haven't done shit.

[Twistedspoon]

If bgg is your favorite lynch, then vote him and quote him. Analyze passages for author's intent. You know, like English class. Can you demonstrate to me the inconsistency in his play?

I might do when he turns up. I see no point in doing it now because he isn't here to respond to any pressure

He's

surprisingly

null? What does that mean? Did you have an expectation at some previous time that he

wouldn't

be null?

And if he's null, why would you classify him as probably town? That means he isn't null at all.

Also, what is your criticism exactly of Earworm's role on the hiplop wagon?

And finally, do you consider "making sense" to be a town tell? What does that mean to you?

1) surprisingly null because I'd expect my read on him to be more developed 25 pages in
2) because i think it's more likely he's not scum than scum
3) his entrance on the hiplop wagon was bad in that a) he didn't give a reason b) he tried to justify his vote before even casting it
4) making sense because townies (usually) think naturally unlike scum who have to force themselves to think town

Could you help me remember what some of these good catches are?

Here's one i liked a lot. seems very town

The point of RVs is to apply pressure and see how people react to it. Your first two votes (the Greymarble one especially) were wastes. They applied zero pressure on the person that you voted because of the extreme haste in which you changed your vote.

Agreed 100% which make me wonder why your first post was ...

VOTE: hiplop

rv

Why feel the need to point out this was a random vote ? Hardly going to help your vote apply pressure is it ?

there was also one about bgg saying he found a scumslip and but not voting for it but I can't remember if it was myself or mike who found that slip. I could take a look later i guess

VOTE: Akira

soooo opportunistic on my wagon. We'll see how he plays.

If he does a post like this and t's consistent then I might unvote

What do you mean by that last sentence? And why are you feeding him what he has to do in order to earn an unvote from you?

to give him pointers if he's confused town. If he's scum I can't see him doing what I expect of him (I haven't told him exactly what he needs to do to get my unvote) but if he's town then he should be able to

I've played with akirascum before. we lynched him D1. I'm having trouble remembering it though and drawing comparisons

Please respond to all my questions

in depth

, you're really helping me understand your play this game.

happy camper now?