ASOIAF: Test of Faith Mafia (Game Over!)

[DrippingGoofball]

EBWOP

I'm NOW voting hascow.

[ooba]

Vote Count

Magua (1)

- Empking

Espeonage (2)

- Magua, Hinduragi

Benmage (1)

- Thor665

vezokpiraka (1)

- Benmage

SaintKerrigan (5)

- Lost Butterfly, Locke Lamora, SpyreX, vezokpiraka, AlmasterGM

Empking (1)

- hasdgfas

hasdgfas (2)

- DrippingGoofball, SaintKerrigan

Thor665 (1)

- Espeonage

Not Voting (4)

- Nexus, LynchMePls, Bilbo Baggins, Setael

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch!

[Bilbo Baggins]

Oh game. You have gotten so very special since our last official rendezvous. This post is mostly old stuff which I'm trying to squeeze the relevant out of for our purposes. Hopefully all of the bits I did yesterday before I got off the computer got tied off.

Right, here's the general thing with

Magua

: He is playing weaksauce, and not in a way that makes me think he had a wonky couple of days. What was initially weak and odd about his play did not seem incidental.

When LMP was at L-3 on page 1, Magua posted this:

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

I want to save him the indignity of dying N1.

This is a complete sidestepping of the issue at hand; I don't need Magua to vote LMP, but issue-full-of-tension-is-here-I-just-be-cool-and-ignoring-it-and-let-something-else-spark-it is here. Right here. The DGB vote could be written off as herp-derp let's-spark-wagonalysis-for-fun-and-profit - but pardon me if I'm not sure I can read it this way; it looks like it was designed to mess around and get written off; it looks ill designed to do what he claims he was fishing for and useful, such that Magua could play it either way depending on how things started to flow. Furthermore

I don't like your line of thinking, just because it takes responsiblity away from you. Like "oh DGB-meta this, DGB-meta not that, therefore DGB scum" so you're not really involved at all. Idk, that vote just reads scummy for miles.

The One Ring has decimated your sense of humor, I see.

Can you get on with dayvigging scum so I can get on with sheeping you?

What do you think about AlmasterGM?

This would read all nice and take-a-chill-pill-Andy-we-are-cool-are-we-not. If it made any sense whatsoever. If I'm not accused of being humorless, it might make sense if, for instance, Magua were voting with us or even agreeing with us on some game point as opposed to still voting DGB for make-joke-ohwait-make-wagonalysis reasons.

Almaster, if you think I'm scum, you should vote me.

I'm not going to vote for SK. I don't care if her next post in the thread is "LULZ GAIZ IM THE GODFATHER." Why am I not going to vote for her? Because I *can*.

I might vote for MagnaofIllusion. My first vote on him was pure RVS, but I haven't liked what I've read. So that's 2/2 I'm batting on doing scummy things you don't like.

Then again: You think MagnaofIllusion is town. MagnaofIllusion thinks DGB is scum. (I happen to agree, self interest and all here.) Do you think Magna is wrong? Misinformed?

When Spy and AGM and the others who did reacted to this post, they were right

in spades

. This post reflects oh so much of Magua's play throughout the game, and is especially similar to the DGB vote. It is messing around with a little tee-hee; it is using that MO to sidestep doing useful things on the scumhunting/lynching continuum.

Pedit: Magua, I'd like to hear what your meta is playstyle-wise.

Self metas suck and cannot be trusted. But, to answer your question: To play stupider than the last time someone played with me.

If so this is the first time I've seen you play to this professed meta.

A lot of this, especially the early stuff, had the ring of CR-type scum in that I would expect a CR role, in the early game, to have some decent presence in the game but not take the spotlight nor look obvTown. Magua's play is anomolously weird, useless, and scummy for him; he has, however, gotten more attention as the game's gone on; I'm not sure what this means. But Magua can and has played (including third-party) with relative finesse.

Here's the thing with

Thor

: He is MOONBEAMS on top of marshmallow fluff. His extensive insistence that there literally was no case on MoI is counter-reality, and the amount of rhetoric spent on there-is-no-case-for-realz/this-is-a-mislynch/MoI-might-be-Town-and-because-of-that-we-should-keep-him-alive was all done with a fierce and deliberate intent beyond the general scope of Townie-disagrees-with-a-case-and-wagon-on-another-guy. I ought to lay off the hyphens for a few sentences, but the point stands. This stands in fairly stark contrast to AGM, where the argument against an MoI lynch despite MoI suspicions, which he does not try to discard as completely without legitimate backing, because other people acting suspicious around him and other wagons will be able to slip under the radar (much more intuitive-to-Town, useful, and true than MoI-will-be-such-a-major-asset-as-Town-tomorrow).

In terms of

Faraday

, he is

not

above emotionally manipulating people he suspects into frustration and frustration-caused mistakes in judgment. If he judges himself in a position of power, he may act like a bit of a jerk and use the rise he gets out of his target to manipulate opinion against the target (a basic rhetoric function) and to manipulate the target. Most attention he has drawn this game has been in the direction of people he's attacking; in the current meta this is certainly not default negative attention drawn, and it remains unclear whether it will pan out as attention a scumbag wouldn't want drawn to himself - but post like this make me worried that it is calculated. But drawing out things he can put down as lolflailscum or you fakerage scum you seems deliberate, much too much so for my taste, especially post Mafia MetaMafia (by the way, Faraday, I've forgiven you for messing with me that game because you were scum . . . <3 . . . er).

About

Maemuki

:

Whoa, amazing how I managed to gather 3 votes with...yeah, one post. I have a gift for this. Anyway, the only thing I find defendable in the cases of the people who voted for me is this: ...uh, nope, can't find a thing other than "obv scum is scum". Amazing.

However, I can't help but notice that everybody has me on their scumlist somewhere. While this is not scummy for the most part, it is when people ignore the rest of the game. So, Magua. What's your opinion on the top 2 wagons?

About the MoI/LB argument, quite frankly...it sucks. Maybe I'm being tainted by my "hate-meta-with-a-passion", but logic dictates MoI should be scummy, yet my gut says that he isn't. I mean, the LMP vote is dodgy for being (self-admitted) sheeping (*cue the cries of hypocrisy*) and for sounding like a pretty poor excuse for an OMGUS, but overall my gut says town.

And I never won a game with logic, so screw that and put him on my most-likely-town list.

Locke Lamora's vote also sounds hella sketchy, mostly because he's arguing a way of phrasing something, not the actual argument.

As for my current vote, SK? Sorry, but even with that post, you're still my main suspect. Why? Well...to be completely fair, you do bring a couple of points I agree on, like LL. And I'm not as sure. I don't know...I don't find anything overly scummy about it, nor overly townie. It's just a post.

I'd like to have something a bit more in-depth for my first real post, but my back says I cannot. I don't promise anything, but I'll probrably have something better before Sunday.

1. Didn't respond to my dissection, which had a fair amount of explaining - just excuses it as no one has a case meh.
2. Complains that everyone has her down as scum, hastily adds that that's just fine with her. Then turns around on the offensive with Magua.
3. Logic says MoI is scum, gut says he isn't, I mean obviously all this stuff is scummy - but I'm not getting on that wagon! I hereby tip my hat at the wagon, pay lip service to the people pushing it, and excuse myself and get as far away as I can.
4. Blah blah blah.
5. I'm still voting SK, with another forced apology, because even though there was some good stuff in that last post, it wasn't scummy. It was just null. So my opinion evolves not a whit, but I'll pay lip service to the fact that you posted and use that to rejustify my vote.

Spoiler for the next post: However Espeonage is actually looking damned Townish himself.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I actually had not noticed that SK used a smiley like that this game; SK is exponentially scummier now. Yes, just for that, using a smiley face to punctuate the fake-joyful comment on his wagon (her? dammit, SK

is

a guy, right?). The fake making light is touched by the I-am-real-making-light-as-well-as-sarcasm-here of the emoticon. SK is feigning relative nonchalance regarding the wagon on him, even if he is indicating mild irritation at it. And it is scummy. It is oh so pretty damned scummy.

I am completely unimpressed by Thor's reaction. There is probably a nice macro here that could show my feelings, but in any case. It's all good and well that MoI was a mislynch and that Thor was right. It's not all good and well that what I remember of Thor yesterday was argument after extreme argument that MoI was a mislynch and nothing else. No really, the scumhunting, such as there was, left no impression. The ability to argue for a lynch other than MoI's that would succeed, if there was any . . . nope. Thor was way too passive for this sort of gloating. There was five times the space devoted to debating the debate, at least, than to trying to hunt up good alternatives OR voting/cajoling for better, alternative wagons. Also, I want clarification on something I stumbled across in Thor's ISO:

Let's clarify to 'rather not lynch in this weak way' a bit, but - yes - there are other players in general on the site and specifically in this game I'd rather not see dead on Day 1 because I think it hurts town's chances. It's awkward to say, but basically the list as it specifically goes to this game is you, MoI, cow, and Lost Butterfly. Yes, I am well aware of where my vote is.

So, why was LB such a worthwhile Day 1 vote here?

You'll especially like a claim from me.

Can't think of any town motivation to say this when you have only a few votes.

vote: Benmage

Think harder (/think like you have a different thoughtprocess)? I dunno, man.

AGM, now that MoI has flipped Town, damned if I don't want to love your wagon-tipping-analysis to pieces - partly because it's coinciding so well with my current suspects, but yeah, confidence factor on that gets a boost from both ends. Self-reinforcing loop of confirmation bias might start happening here with me, but.

Unvote: Nexus.
Vote: hascow

#500 was terribad.

O RLY. How so?

Furthermore Magua manages to argue against AGM as if he hadn't answered the 'why me over SK today' question already. Which he quite clearly had. Then made AGM out into the bad guy for that.
Damned if Espeonage's post doesn't look fairly sincere.

LMP quotes AGM from a few pages back and it just occurred to me. LMP's explosion at the end of the page before is actually screaming of a distressed town. Keeping this in mind. Could also be a scum who has just realised they need to go into damage control.

Scratch the first point. It's the second.

Hrm? You note right after this something that you say is Townish of him - and anyway I've gotten confused in this post. What's the mindset behind LMP's explosion? Clarify.

Why is it scummy? Why can't town players exhibit "scummy" behavior?

Oh this is bloody rich, this.

But Thor and SK, they are not going to be playing the What's Town is Scum and What's Scum is Town game. Not over Benmage with Thor, either; going down the Benmage-isn't-obvTown-let's-argue-this point route when it comes to his Benmage vote, after the whole MoI-case-is-nonexistent-&c. thing. But when Espe says Ben is a bad vote, and Thor argues against that.

VOTE: Thor

[Espeonage]

As I said it came across as from a distressed townie trying to make up lost ground. idk there was a tone shift.

And then it was ruined and went back to how it was before. So my read on LMP is a bit clouded now.

[hasdgfas]

Because they are both obv town.

Neither of them are remotely scummy. The people you are going after are low posters. You seem to be actively seeking the easiest wagon to get on without looking bad yet also staying out of the limelight. Most of your votes in the second half of day 1 fit the MO of a scum trying to hide in plain sight and not caring what wagon you're on.

I

don't

care what wagon I'm on, if I believe the person I'm voting for is scum.


@Bilbo: I'm having a bit of trouble following much of what you're saying. It seems a bit...flowery. Could you do some sort of summary? Preferably without the quote striping?

In any case, Espeonage is town.

I had thought that SK was town, but his recent behavior is making me rethink that. Firstly, instead of explaining the reasoning behind doing things others think are scummy, he's going "well why can't town do that?" It seems a bit arrogant and cheeky, and unnecessarily antagonistic, when he could just as easily EXPLAIN WHY HE DID SOMETHING.

I had my suspicions of MoI, but that wagon on him was one of the worst I've ever seen in my life.

Could you point out where you said that during the wagon? I'm having a bit of trouble finding it in your ISO.

[SpyreX]

Espeonage is mae?

GOD there's some players I just keep forgetting even exist and thats not a good thing.

Speaking of forgetting:

There are several players that look scummy, but it may just be due to their playstyle (Empking and Spyrex, to name a couple).

Have you mentioned me... ever?

Even a pretend ever?

[Thor665]

Let's clarify to 'rather not lynch in this weak way' a bit, but - yes - there are other players in general on the site and specifically in this game I'd rather not see dead on Day 1 because I think it hurts town's chances. It's awkward to say, but basically the list as it specifically goes to this game is you, MoI, cow, and Lost Butterfly. Yes, I am well aware of where my vote is.

So, why was LB such a worthwhile Day 1 vote here?

Go read any game I have ever been in with Mina.
Watch pressure happen.
Watch very accurate reads come about.

going down the Benmage-isn't-obvTown-let's-argue-this point route when it comes to his Benmage vote, after the whole MoI-case-is-nonexistent-&c. thing. But when Espe says Ben is a bad vote, and Thor argues against that.

Are you saying I'm scummy because I don't believe Benmage is an obvious mislynch but I did believe MoI was? Yeah, it might be a shock but I think people I vote are usually scummy. It's a habit.
What do you think of the Benmage meta read I offered to explain my case? You didn't seem to think it was worth mentioning despite having issues with me arguing how Benmage isn't obvious town.

[AlmasterGM]

Bilbo.

I love you.

Now come over here and vote for either SaintKerrigan or Magua.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ cow: Because the reason for a lot of my behavior in this game is due to the aforementioned external factors. Which, of course, I doubt anyone is going to believe. So it's really bloody hard to defend myself in that position. Which sucks. (AoE that all you want.)

And no, I didn't specifically say that during the wagon. I did protest the crap out of people forcing Magna to claim, and I had assumed people would come to their senses before pushing that wagon over the edge. I was clearly wrong.

I'm asking why town can't do that because I

know

I'm town, so therefore town can do everything people are claiming is scummy about me. It definitely seems like people haven't learned much from the Magna lynch, though, so whatever.

@ Bilbo: I'm voting the cow because he had a scummylicious reasoning for voting Empking, and I think he knows better than that to be playing stupid. Also, your ridiculous "smiley tell" earns you a

Unvote: hasdgfas
Vote: Bilbo Baggins

, because I really cannot excuse that bull.

@ Spyrex: Did you actually read the quote? I think your playstyle is making you look scummy. Which is not a valid reason to think you're scum. I haven't found anything else that's voteworthy or directly suspicious. Ergo, I have not mentioned you (at least to my recollection). Capisce?

I know I'm not playing a good game right now, but seriously, there is a lot of derpness going on in this town.

(Sorry about the harsh tone that keeps getting in my posts. Again, the external issues.)

[SpyreX]

@ Spyrex: Did you actually read the quote? I think your playstyle is making you look scummy. Which is not a valid reason to think you're scum. I haven't found anything else that's voteworthy or directly suspicious. Ergo, I have not mentioned you (at least to my recollection). Capisce?

Ohhh hoss.

So, instead of me being scum for reasons I'm scummy for my

playstyle

?

I'll give you this. I'm pretty sure thats the first time I've ever, ever heard that in the history of my playing this game.

So kudos for that welcome to ropeville.

[AlmasterGM]

Fun fact: Googling "ropeville" does not lead to mafia-related results. Especially not in the "images" section.

[Lost Butterfly]

ENJOY ROPE EH???

In terms of

Faraday

, he is

not

above emotionally manipulating people he suspects into frustration and frustration-caused mistakes in judgment. If he judges himself in a position of power, he may act like a bit of a jerk and use the rise he gets out of his target to manipulate opinion against the target (a basic rhetoric function) and to manipulate the target. Most attention he has drawn this game has been in the direction of people he's attacking; in the current meta this is certainly not default negative attention drawn, and it remains unclear whether it will pan out as attention a scumbag wouldn't want drawn to himself - but post like this make me worried that it is calculated. But drawing out things he can put down as lolflailscum or you fakerage scum you seems deliberate, much too much so for my taste, especially post Mafia MetaMafia (by the way, Faraday, I've forgiven you for messing with me that game because you were scum . . . <3 . . . er).
.

see i never tried to get a rise out of lmp untll the diaf, i'm still pretty sure his question was stupid and was making a point, his reaction looked completetly overblown. then admittedly i had fun getting a rise for kicks probably.

i did think you were an SK for like 5 minutes in metamafia hence the complete overrreaction.

want to say more but this keyboard is retarded.

[Benmage]

Hey Thor, you're a rumbaed whose taking a miniscule sample and beating a dead horse.

Go read the game I have a scummy in and tell me again I'm not town. Try researching me for 2 seconds and you'll realize how dumb you've been this game.

That said a dumb Thor is usually a town Thor.
lol.

More tomorrow, hopefully.

[Thor665]

I had to look up rumbaed - I'm getting 'past tense of rumba (the dance' I'll go with you're insulting me, but...

In the game Espeo linked you downplayed your scummy winning game as not one of your best and that the scum were weak. You think it's a prime bit of meta experience with you? What about the other Song games I've played with you (and some other games as well) where I think bombastic is really a succinct and accurate way to describe your play, and you're clearly playing anything but here.

I disagree that dumb Thor = town Thor. I'm an equal opportunity idiot. But thanks for downplaying my play without actually really addressing it. It's usually a good idea to suggest anyone who attacks you is too dumb to be trusted. Cute.

[SpyreX]

@ cow: Because the reason for a lot of my behavior in this game is due to the aforementioned external factors. Which, of course, I doubt anyone is going to believe. So it's really bloody hard to defend myself in that position. Which sucks. (AoE that all you want.)

And no, I didn't specifically say that during the wagon. I did protest the crap out of people forcing Magna to claim, and I had assumed people would come to their senses before pushing that wagon over the edge. I was clearly wrong.

I'm asking why town can't do that because I know I'm town, so therefore town can do everything people are claiming is scummy about me. It definitely seems like people haven't learned much from the Magna lynch, though, so whatever.

@ Bilbo: I'm voting the cow because he had a scummylicious reasoning for voting Empking, and I think he knows better than that to be playing stupid. Also, your ridiculous "smiley tell" earns you a
Unvote: hasdgfas
Vote: Bilbo Baggins, because I really cannot excuse that bull.

Sorry I didn't even respond to this before I was so flabbergasted by the other piece but I wanted to.

MoI-repeat fear mongering? Check.
Worlds best OMGUS (leaping from a quasi real reason to a total fabrication land one)? Check.
Ropes? NOT CHECK RED ALERT RED ALERT

---

Benmage is town today. For reals. Mad reals. Readjust. This tree is not for barking.

[Nexus]

I am here, but work's killing me. I've got a day off tomorrow though, so should be able to post properly. Sorry.

[Benmage]

My point Thor is that I have many games where at different intervals activity has plagued me.

Zorasters in the court of the gods.(albiet that's my personal worst site game..imo) Horrible activity D1.

Then apparently you don't even remember our history, aCoK.... I was called out 2nd half of D1 and most of D2 and it wasn't until late D2 the dragon awoke.....I think it was Mina who made the comical connection to WoT -benmage.

Even in aSoS I fell behind and had todo a 15 PG catch-up much like this game.

Now have you stopped to LOOK AT A SCUM GAME OF MINE??? Or you're just sitting here going derp derp derp this isn't the benmage I know... Ive said it a million times no two games are alike.

Here's the clincher!!!! My scum games..... are played flawlessly. Period.

[Benmage]

Dumb Thor is a town Thor.....this blind tunneling Thor may be a bird of a different color.

[Bilbo Baggins]

@Bilbo: I'm having a bit of trouble following much of what you're saying. It seems a bit...flowery. Could you do some sort of summary? Preferably without the quote striping?

- Mae was very scum-mindset and looked bad but Espe looks pretty Town as replacement for the slot, and arguments against SK and Thor are solid.
- Magua's play looks all too deliberately herp derp; he avoids certain things like acknowledging the LMP super RVS wagon at its height (when he merely voted unconnected MoI for unconnected RVS reasons); he says things which make only vague sense in context, earning a presence but using the make-joke style to be playing properly only when he chooses.
- I'm not sure that Faraday is innocent in his irritation of LMP and so forth; it looks deliberate and is not earning him the sort of negative attention some people have claimed it has.
- Thor . . . there's a little recap at the bottom of the next paragraph, but I can come back to it again if you need.

@Thor - Regarding LB, possibly fair enough (though one wonders how effective the pressure would be when Mina is not only hydra'd with Faraday but also after you said outright that you generally would not consider LB an advantageous Day 1 lynch among the players in this game). Regarding the Benmage thing: I'm having a bit of trouble articulating it, but it seems to me out of balance the way you argued that MoI was super-advantageous not to lynch Day 1 because he was so not doing scum things and why couldn't people see that it was stupid vs. the way you reacted when Espe said that your votes were bad because Ben was obvtown and you argued it. You dismissed - in no uncertain terms, in fact, you argued that there literally was no MoI case and you would not concede that believing otherwise was believable. Yet when Espe comes and argues that your vote was stupid because Ben is obviously Town, you take offense. My point is less about whether or not Ben is obviously Town (though frankly I haven't found him scummy this game, so) and more a support/redoubling note about your attitude towards such things as the MoI wagon and lynch, and that your stance was unsustainable, but not only that: it was weird and generally counterintuitive. Furthermore, and more importantly, arguing against the MoI wagon being sensical was most all of what I can remember you doing Day 1 - and I do not recall nor can I identify any effective or serious attempts to use scumhunting and wagon-driving against the MoI wagon. Which is not at all what a Townie who sincerely believed the thing would be such a bad lynch would do, as far as I can see.

@ Bilbo: I'm voting the cow because he had a scummylicious reasoning for voting Empking, and I think he knows better than that to be playing stupid. Also, your ridiculous "smiley tell" earns you a, well, hrm

Bilbo.

I love you.

Now come over here and vote for either SaintKerrigan or Magua.

Yeah.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: SK

We'll see about Thor, buuuuuut yeah. Keep it coming.

Unvote: hasdgfas
Vote: Bilbo Baggins

, because I really cannot excuse that bull.

Eat rope, my friend. Not only is the smiley tell a pretty solid one, but you dismiss it despite the fact that I firmly and clearly explained the psychology behind considering it scummy. Strawman my argument?

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: SK

- If we can't lynch the cult recruitor let us lynch the Mafioso.

[DrippingGoofball]

Yeah Bilbo is town, who the heck would vote Bilbo? Scum? No. That's what the NK is for. For the Bilbo Baggins of the world.

[Empking]

Yeah Bilbo is town, who the heck would vote Bilbo? Scum? No. That's what the NK is for. For the Bilbo Baggins of the world.

I'm confused. Though I agree that BB is obvtown and that nobody in their right mind would vote BB, what does it mean considering SK did vote BB?

[Thor665]

@Thor - Regarding LB, possibly fair enough (though one wonders how effective the pressure would be when Mina is not only hydra'd with Faraday but also after you said outright that you generally would not consider LB an advantageous Day 1 lynch among the players in this game).

You'll note when I made that list I noted the oddity of my vote - I basically had a decision to make as far as answering the question or continuing the angle effectively. If you're going to call me on something please look at the whole picture.

Regarding the Benmage thing: I'm having a bit of trouble articulating it, but it seems to me out of balance the way you argued that MoI was super-advantageous not to lynch Day 1 because he was so not doing scum things and why couldn't people see that it was stupid vs. the way you reacted when Espe said that your votes were bad because Ben was obvtown and you argued it. You dismissed - in no uncertain terms, in fact, you argued that there literally was no MoI case and you would not concede that believing otherwise was believable. Yet when Espe comes and argues that your vote was stupid because Ben is obviously Town, you take offense.

I strongly disagree with this conclusion.
Go back and look - my issue with the MoI case was because it was a conglomeration of votes from lots of different reasoning, none of which particularly agreed (I also disagreed with a lot of the individual cases and said so)
Espeo calls out my Benmage vote as being on obv. town, yet when asked why Ben is obv. town the answer is a weak "none of his posts look scummy"
Finally - please explain how disagreeing with a wagon, means I have to automatically disagree with anyone who disagrees with a wagon I start. That doesn't actually make any sense. Also, my big disagreement with Espeo was asking for opinions on his case, pretty blatantly reading the game he linked, and explaining why I still didn't see it as applicable evidence.
What I got with my MoI defense was "lol, Thor is stupid defending obv. scum and is obv. scum now himself" Totally different reactions. Please explain the mental hypocrisy in my head that is being showcased.

Also, you seriously find Benmage townish right now? I want you to place this opinion on record.

@Empking - that's exactly DGB's point methinks.

[Empking]

@Empking - that's exactly DGB's point methinks.

What's DGB's point? Its a null tell