Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[Giitah]

Vote: nintendoaddict1

because it's late and I feel tired.

[Giitah]

Let's start throwing around the Idiot Ball.

FoS: archaebob and Heliman

for jumping on the bandwagon. ^^

[Giitah]

Ai ai, captain.

Unvote: nintendoaddict1

Vote: archaebob

[Giitah]

Picking apart reactions, archaebob. You seem to have a lot to say, jumping around pointing your guns like that - are you sure you aren't just looking for someone to start wagoning on? You seem to want to jump the gun pretty fast, right?

[Giitah]

@Ace Well, it was that or go for a really lame answer like 'it was a joke vote'.

[Giitah]

Okay, so you have my reasoning. Do you have any answer or are you planning on sitting on me?

[Giitah]

I wouldn't say what archebob is doing anything bad, since it will certainly be helpful later.

Unless he is scum. Then it would have been all to throw us off.

WIFOM; don't bother with that reasoning. All I really see worthy of deducing from this is association for later-game.

@Pine And you don't see what he's doing as an overreaction/off the top at all...?

[Giitah]

My vote is quite adequately explained. Jumping on typoes and misunderstandings is very scummy in my book.

Jily is an acceptable lynch on policy grounds if we move into a stalemate, but I find nothing she's done yet to be damning, just the mark of immaturity.

Hold up, that's adequete reasoning?

FoS: Pine

That's bullshit. That wasn't a jump on misunderstandings OR a typo. And only scum need to make up evidence. Can you tell me exactly WHAT was a jump on a typo or a misunderstanding?

What I did wasn't any more town or scum than archaebob - he shot me with a vote to wagon so he could put some pressure, I shot back with my own reasoning and my own wagon.

Unvote

Vote: jilyne1991

Demon Hybrid's got it right, he's covered in vanilla from the top down. As for Jilyne, well, L-2 is better for pressure than L-3, that's just scary when you're on it for a while.

Hiplop, you plan on defending yourself yet or are we going to have to finish this up before we move on to you?

[Giitah]

Precisely, you haven't done anything at all and your vote on DemonHybrid isn't helping either. Picking on details doesn't help anyone at this point and are only minor tells anyway. Why don't you contribute to discussion instead of blindly voting everyone?

[Giitah]

No, but you haven't done anything at all for the town despite being active. While I admit I noticed DH had posted that and that was slightly damning, I set it aside since there are better people to think about. You, on the other hand, you're not generating any useful discussion. Do you think DH is scummier than jily or archaebob?

[Giitah]

Okay, Jilynne, I'll accept your vote back there was a mistake. However, what do you think of the proceedings so far? Who warrants your vote?

[Giitah]

Wanna explain archaebob? I'm interested in hearing.

[Giitah]

Jilynne, can you tell me clearly who you are the most suspicious of currently and why?

[Giitah]

Holy crap, I really am just batting 1000 in this game.

FOS: Heliman

for what I said in 127. Vote stays on archaebob for now.

How was Heliman involved in that again..?
Sorry, if he posted after that quote or something I can't be bothered to check, this labtop is a bitch to work with and I've seen you make a load of mistakes so far.

[Giitah]

Just saying, archaebob, you'll have to turn in your evidence for your FoS sooner or later.
I'm off to bed. Hopefully I'll have some more meat tomorrow.

[Giitah]

Generally, the only people that start the game looking for third party roles are scum themselves.

Haha, you know this one from experience, eh. XD

DH + someone else (I believe bob) asked me why my vote was still on DH and apparently that implies I think he's mafia??? No, not in the slightest. I'd unvote seeing as I think he's town but I highly resent people telling me what to do with my vote so early on. I will get out of RVS when I feel like it. I literally despise the beginning of games. It just breeds idiotic, illogical arguments where people are too serious and push cases based on bad logic/little to no evidence. If it were up to me I wouldn't post til page 10 every game. Meh, I suppose someone has to spur on discussion, but I just end up raging most of the time if I try to get involved early.

tldr, I'm going to keep lurking.

[Giitah]

Ughh, god damn. You do realize that in doing so you're depraving all of us of information and you're not doing ANYTHING at all to help the town, right?

[Giitah]

@ everyone: There has been a death in the family, so I might not have a chance to get back on for awhile. I will do my best to put up a vote count and deliver prods if necessary when I return.

Sorry to hear about that, pappums, I wish your family all the best at this time.

Deuxieme, I'd like some thoughts out of you on how the day has been going so far and who you find to be scummy.

[Giitah]

put a cap on it. I want to hear what Jilynne has to say and what archaebob has to say before I pass a judgement on him.

[Giitah]

Well, the wagon's died anyway regardless of whether or not I'd like to investigate Jilynne and while I hate to follow someone else I might as well see what can come out of this.

Vote: archaebob

Jilynne, I'd still like to see a couple words out of you on the topic of the other players.

[Giitah]

?
Archaebob's... wait, what? .. vote off Jil leaves it at L-4...

Okay, never mind what I was thinking there. I jumped on to a pressure vote since I thought Ace had jumped ship from the Jil, which I now realize he didn't.

@Archaebob, what I just wrote is what happened to it. I was under the impression we were at L-4 now - not enough votes for pressure.

[Giitah]

Why did they deserve a vote more than Hiplop?

[Giitah]

"Thats why meta wont cut it for me."
Y'mean, as reasoning?

[Giitah]

Clarify what you meant by those words, I didn't really understand.

Did you mean meta won't cut it for you to justify changing your play style like how Archaebob did?

[Giitah]

shes obviously new, i FoS'd too, and iirc Barry allen di

d. I was slightly intoxicated admittedly, but RVS is just as much about starting conversations, as it is about applying pressure. Don't let my join date fool you, i've been playing mafia for years.

Thats why meta wont cut it for me.

Also that reasoning is BS, fos =/= scumtell.

Shes obviously young (account says 13 iirc), and won't fully understand mafia

i suppose

As a defense. He pulled up meta to excuse his play,

i find meta useless

, so it wont cut it for me

Lying, LYING scum. There's a very very VERY OBVIOUS double standard here. Look at the bolded.

Unvote, Vote: Hiplop

giitah is scum; we can get her in a few minutes, though

Want to explain this as well? What's the basis of that accusation?

Also, I've italicized how you've defended her above. While it's just circumstancial at the moment I would take note of it nonetheless.

@Archaebob
Not really, no. The questioning was a failure anyway.

My personal reasons for wanting to hunt Jily were never explained, so I guess I'll explain now. I got a bad vibe after a while of reading her signature about being thirteen; I hate meta and I hate having to analyze it, but I was hella suspicious of that meta. Thirteen-year old girl? I wanted to check if she REALLY was what she said she was through an analysis of her answers and her competence, and then afterwards I'd keep whatever I found out to myself until/unless she made some sort of error in her judgement. Then I would be interested if she ever made reference to her meta as a defence.

@Heliman As for explaining my recent actions, well, I might as well speak now too. I'm a believer that pressure does change response, so I did consent to vote jump. That being said, no, I don't actually think he's suspicious, and yes, I disagree with you on 'pointless voting', because actions in this game are hardly ever pointless. Even random votes have significance.

@Archaebob again
I'd have to research Jily's posts again (see if she likes voting during day 1), but for now your case strong though it all rides on hunchs and no concrete evidence. I'll look into it.

[Giitah]

Yeah, i was explaining what meta i find useless. Bringing up other games is what i consider meta, i dont consider psycho-graphic characteristics to be meta.

i worded that wrong admittedly. I mean im getting a town-read from him

So you consider claimed-and-'proveable' evidence from past games to be worthless, while you consider claimed evidence of their own personality to be in the clear?

[Giitah]

But you defended her because she's a little girl I suppose?
Your logic isn't adding up, Hiplop.

[Giitah]

I mean, seeing as you SPECIFICALLY EVEN SAID SO...
"Shes obviously young (account says 13 iirc), and won't fully understand mafia i suppose"

[Giitah]

*Er, just slightly worried because I've already been referenced several times like this... but... I am a guy. Just saying. .___.

@Ace
Sadly enough, no, not really. I've played Mafia before here on this site but I left after playing a couple of games due to some complications and I made a new account recently. I've studied Mafia concepts (scumtells, towntells, etc.) a lot out of interest, but I have little experience playing.

@Hiplop
Do you have anything else to say in your own defense on my case against you? If you haven't noticed, I posted again on the topic at posts #218 and #219.

@Ace again
Really, I'll have to agree with Archaebob here - his case was based on feathers but it was a case presented in a pretty strong impression and may have gotten us a decent reaction call. As it is, what we got instead was a perfectly logical reaction rather than an emotionally charged defense, which may have given us indication of her alignment right there.

[Giitah]

Right -
@Deuxieme
Please don't go lurk, it's not helpful at all.

[Giitah]

Just a headsup, fellow 'asshat', but not everyone was aware you were V/LA; it would be polite to INFORM people instead of just leaving a sign around. And I don't care how many games you're in if that's a point you're going to bring up.

[Giitah]

I like my vote where it is, for now, but I'm already suspicious of Scumhunter and am I also waiting for some input.
Also waiting for input from Hiplop and Ace; still wondering what you wanted there, Ace; and as for Hiplop, I've already posed a couple of questions to you that you may already be aware of if you've been keeping up with the thread.

[Giitah]

General reminder to everyone that day 1 ends on June 26th, ten days from now. While we have time, we don't have all the time in the world.

[Giitah]

I'll think this over at a later time, at the moment, Jil, if you've read that, I think he means you're just not active enough. You've held us up the longest so far what with 'oh I've gotta run and do this' 'sorry I was off doing this', if you can't commit to this it won't work out.

[Giitah]

Nine days now.
What a guy.

Unvote, Vote ScumHunter

I'll have a look at DemonHybrid's play and arguments so far throughout the game, then, I'm interested in seeing how he's played so far.

[Giitah]

Raaage. >___< Just deleted a post worth of information.

@Hiplop
I'll post what I have to say on the topic of you at a later time, when Barry finishes questioning you.

@DH, Scumhunter
I'm in agreement with Bob's method of playing; while I wouldn't be able to push so strongly with it myself, he's good the right mindset on how to gain information on lurkers at this point. I'll also say that regardless of whether or not his line of reasoning is right at this point I'll still help him scumhunt his targets.

This is NOT to say I will vote with him when we vote to kill.

@Archaebob
There's no use further arguing on the topic of your gameplay so much, I think if they disagree with you at this point it's a lost cause unless you want to spend a day arguing about it.

@Scumhunter
Would you like my reads, then? You said you don't know who I want to vote for or who I think is suspicious - you're right, that's because I haven't really said anything yet, admittedly. I've been keeping my thoughts to myself mostly aside from questioning others and trying to gain more information myself.

@Pine
Whatever you say, you're still not looking any more pro-town. Accept that we're suspicious of you and that you'll have to explain yourself when you come back and let it be and have fun on vacation. ^^
Also, OMGUS suspicions don't help you either. You are NOT looking anymore protown so why should we stop thinking you're scummy? Relax and chill and then come back and help us out.

[Giitah]

Explain your reasoning and how killing any of us would be helpful for the town or be any different from killing you.

[Giitah]

Damnit, I was holding off on doing this until the last minute because of other commitments. >___>

Okay, expect my reads tonight and my vote.

unvote

[Giitah]

Okay, I've finally finished my analysis. Before I say anything I'd like to question Scumhunter.
What makes you so certain DH is town? Do you think there is a merit to defending him so much? If you think DH isn't scum, why don't you make a logical and coherent argument against the attack of the supporters rather than telling people 'HEY GUYS STOP TRYING TO KILL HIM!'? I'm interested in what you have to say on him.

[Giitah]

@Nintendo
Obviously, because he thinks your suspicious.

[Giitah]

Don't ask meaningless questions. It's like Hiplop asking 'Did you actually read my posts'? No shit, everyone says YES OF COURSE because otherwise our argument is basically invalidated.

[Giitah]

Vote: Scumhunter

Don't avoid my questions.
Post #382.

[Giitah]

on an aside, can someone quickly link me to a definition/define tunneling?

[Giitah]

Wouldn't it be a good idea to observe the arguments of the attackers, then, instead of sitting around wondering 'hmm, why are they voting for him? I mean, he's obviously town!'
Regardless, that's enough, thank you, I've gleaned enough information.

Unvote

Posting my reads when I return to my desktop from my labtop, since I have all the notes I've taken saved there.

[Giitah]

again, you have no case at all scumhunter. If you want to defend your buddy, at least provide some evidence

you can't just say this and make it true.

He did and he can. You have a fluff argument based on an emotional appeal. Need I say more?

[Giitah]

No, no, no, I'm not saying it's a scumtell. I'm telling you to back it up. That's all I'm saying.

[Giitah]

^^ Will do, but... frankly I can't even recall. I passed over it briefly only.

[Giitah]

Hey, uh, guys, in general, is it a better idea to post just your scum reads or post a read on everybody?

[Giitah]

Not really sure what to do from here. I'll post my reads tomorrow morning hopefully once I get a response. S:

[Giitah]

How so? I'd like an explanation too, it's a bit of game theory I'm iffy on. Haven't read/seen any reasoning on it.

[Giitah]

Okay, works. I'll post it up tonight then. Er... time to mop it up.

[Giitah]

Here are my reads and my vote for day 1, as of now:

Hiplop

Noob scum/noob town. His reasoning and style of play is pretty offbeat and I can't really get an accurate read of him. I'll probably have to read his history to better understand but I think he might just be noob spelled all over; even so, I'll research what I can to glean something of his alignment.
While it seems like he wants to help, he has horrible reasoning and doesn't seem to have a great grasp of the game theory. No accurate read, really. He occassionally helps out in the questioning but just seems to just as often just get in the way.
Little other notes I can pick up is: he has horrible typing (meta) that improves when he defends/attacks well (could be a useful note to eyeball).
As of late, he reads pretty scummy giving me the impression of wanting to lynch immediately in post #341, where he stated
"atm im fine with lynching;
Barry
DK
Grallie".
See this as OMGUS from me, but the fact that he said it in that way looks kinda scummy to me.

Foilist

No accurate read as of yet. Not enough content.

archaebob

Strong town read. Like ace(?) mentioned earlier, there is a chance he could be playing a mindscrew WIFOM game with us and that he's actually a Mafia, but it's looking pretty low.

jilynne1991

Fucking terrible town player or a really noobie/good at lurking scum.
She strikes me as pretty scummy in it that she's really nervous, as seen in really trying to explain herself and why she was lurking and why nothing had happened in post 101; she gives us a really weak sort of response, her only really useful response in post 187; but that's it for content from Jily. Otherwise she has struck me as inattentive, lacking in any dedication and very nervous trying to keep her cool. She needs to post like HELL or be replaced.

Barry Allen

Personally, I don't have an accurate enough read of him but I'm getting a relatively townie vibe from him overall. He argued with Hiplop throughout page 14 (posts 325 to around 350), where he gave me a pretty passive and understanding tone rather than an offensive mafia. He didn't vote Hiplop until hiplop demonstrated some pretty funky logic. This deserves a read-over if he shows anymore mafia behavior but overall despite not giving off a strong townie vibe he DID give it off when he was arguing with Hiplop here. I'll leave him as a townie read leaning towards the null side.

NintendoAddict

He reads as a pretty noob town to me. He argues with Archaebob on the game theory a little bit but in general seems to grasp it enough to read decently. He posts some pretty faulty logic at times, in general his ability to reason appears to be somewhat limited to me, which COULD be read as a potential scumtell but it just reads noob to me. We can see some bad reasoning and also an example of his somewhat lacking game theory understanding in posts 239 and 250.
As for the cases against him, I've read them (hopefully) though I've forgot what they're about and he still seems newb town to me.

Heliman

He passes off to me as scummy because he's far too vocal. His play style is brash and rude and his case against Archaebob later in the game passes off as pretty scummy compared to what he said near the beginning if you view his posts in isolation. He's decisively null tell just because my gut reaction conflicts with his content, but with his intelligence I really don't think he'd be barking at Archaebob, especially after what he said to start with. I'm interested in this conflict, but there's no time to investigate this unfortunately.

Ace

Decisively town so far. He's done some good work so far but he also shot down the Jily case, which looks pretty bad on him. I think it was simply a mark of bad judgement rather than scumminess. The only odd thing I find is that he promised to give us an analysis of the Heliman vs. Archaebob argument, which never did pop up ever again if I'm not mistaken.

DemonHybrid

I get a town read from him. His content is good and he's helped the town. Not much more to say. His argument with Bob goes on theory but there's nothing from him to say he's scum, while there's a pretty strong read on him as town.
However, the fact that he's hesitant to join another wagon is of interest to me and should be noted.

Spadille

V/LA

Scumhunter

Null read. After being prodded to post he posted consistently and offered decent opinions but he's also proved he's relatively intelligent, meaning he could be either town or scum at this point. However, he does refuse to vote for someone he thinks is town, even if it's blatantly obvious it's not a lynch vote. Not sure what to make of this but that's all I can say.

Kay, that's my reads. long post...

[Giitah]

One thing I missed that's bugging me. Archaebob, Post 109, you FoS DH and give no reasoning. Explain now, please.

[Giitah]

Sorry if I may have offended others... >___>
Now that I think about it, I perhaps should have worded that much differently.

I'll review and choose three targets. I have an inkling, but, yes, I don't have too many good reads, I apologize.

[Giitah]

Hiplop, make a case against DemonHybrid before I say why the fucking hell he's town because you haven't even got a goddamn case against him, for god's sake. You're just voting him from what I see.

[Giitah]

Graiie, explain where DH has ever been pro-town. Now. He hasnt done anything useful all game. Make sure to include evidence.

Where have i ever gotten in the way, too? I think my attack on archbob is townie enough, and it was pretty solid logic. I got him to pretty much confirm himself + a few others/get off the track. This town is really nit-picky and i get frustrated over that. (ie typing thing, get over it people)

you realize that me saying directly who i'm ok with lynching; is not scummy at all..right? If i were scum in this scenario it would limit my options to squirm around.

^^ Thats why your reads increased your scum-points, for me. You didn't decisively say

anything

, pretty much all of them except bob say "They could be scum or town". Paving an easy route for you to flip-flop your opinions

Yes, part of the reason why I said you get in the way is that your style of typing has something to be missed. Everyone's investigated you and come up with nothing on the baiss that 'you look scummy', with absolutely no evidence. It's not your fault, but you do, and I think that's what I was thinking when I posted that.

Obviously, Hiplop, I won't know who's town or Mafia at this point, because I'm not Mafia. What I am I supposed to do, act like I'm dead certain someone's scum when I really don't have any thing but inklings and gut feelings? I'm not sure what else you expect from me. Do you want me to make a faulty and weak case against someone and say everyone else is in the clear?

Three top picks incoming.

[Giitah]

Did you even read my post?

Yes, hiplop, I read all your posts. I find them not to be consistent in either content or posting style. The post I'm quoting from you is like a lot of your early posts, where you quote a longer post from someone else (in this case me) and make a very quick comment...making it look like you are contributing much more than you actually are. Your later posts swing back and forth in both content and style, depending on how much heat you are getting at the moment. Until I see something better from you I'll keep my vote where it is.

There is one other question that I did answer earlier...but that question seems to have come up again so I'd like to answer it again after quoting the most recent note on the subject:

Now,

@Barry

Post #4 you said you wanted to hear from jil because she was at L-2. I know this has been said before, but drawing attention to her absence seems almost opportunistic.

I don't think either of them are scum, though, but you can't be really sure on D1.

At the time of the post referenced above, Jil had actually been on thread multiple times without giving a defense, even though the votes were piling up. She had only been at L-2 for a few hours (hence my time zone reference), but this had been going on for much longer with her active posting...but no defense. That's what I was calling out...not her absence from the thread, but her absence of a defense.

get over it, you have no argument. I type walls when i have something to type about. When im just replying to a question, there is no need. If you look at my meta (since you guys seem to love it), i type like this in every game; Scum or Town. Which is why your logic sucks smurf.

As for bobs ask from us; My vote is on my most scummy, Barry has gone up a few points with his persistance with me. Yet demonhunter continues to try and pull a policy lynch on jilyanne. He was one of the ones leading the charge on her, and it wasted like 10 pages. Obvious scum-delay is obvious. Also, theres something just wrong with his posts, they come across very scummy, cant really explain it

just so the mod doesnt get confused;

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DemonHybrid

DH is town, we are not voting him. I am 95% sure that DH-scum would have loved to tunnel a policy vote on me today for our disagreements from last game.

I want to see your case on him Bob. Also, yea Pine is V/LA, we don't want to vig him or even consider voting him til he gets back and can contribute. That is reckless play.

I have to agree with DH with regards to jilynne. If the point of voting someone for pressure is to actually elicit a response you don't just GIVE UP when they aren't responding. You continue to pressure them until they either respond or lynched as bad town/scum.

I'm more than willing to vote jilynne if she doesn't want to contribute.

vote jilynne1991

so because hes going after someone else, that makes him town?

I think we've found our scum team guys.. (dh and scumhunter)

This is all I can find on your case on DH. So you want to kill him because he's still insisting on killing an active lurker? Personally, I don't buy your case. All you say is 'HE KEEPS WANTING TO KILL HER' and 'HE LOOKS SCUMMY'.
That's not a case. Bring up some evidence and evidence for counterarguments because there's a lot that can be said on the topic of DH. You've proven yourself relatively intelligent and you're no longer on V/LA, so you should be fine with doing this, right?

[Giitah]

Okay... I'm going to apologize and I'll give my reads tonight. I can't focus at the moment, RL problems. Sorry everybody.

[Giitah]

...can...can I just call in lazy? LOLOLOL
Okay, everyone, six days to deadline, start crunching. hehe. hypocrite. >____> iiyaa.
Tomorrow morning I promise.

[Giitah]

At this point I'm also rather compelled to believe DH is town rather than scum. I'm not sure if defending him is in the best interest of the town so I'll leave it at that, I guess.

[Giitah]

Lawl. Ace, I think you got the impression because I (laughing, by the way) noticed that Archaebob said Jil was getting replaced first if I'm not mistaken at around page 14/15, then I think you read that because soon afterwards you started saying that too. Rather amusing from the sidelines, really. ^^

So, clarifying, from what I know Jilynne is NOT being replaced. She... should have been back today but I'm guessing she had school.

Vote Pine

He's really scummy in my books so far anyway and I'll second Bob on wanting more content from him.

I'm curious, general question to anyone, what are your thoughts on Heliman so far?

[Giitah]

LOLOLOLOL! BEFORE I READ YOUR EVIDENCE, LET ME LAUGH AT THE NERVE OF YOU TO PULL A STUNT WITH AN IMAGE LIKE THAT.

Hats off to you, my friend.

[Giitah]

'Nerve'? 'Stunt'?

Your wording twinges my gut, Giitah. Best I can describe it, it reads like nervous laughter rather than a genuine HAHAHA U SO FUNNY VALERN. I'll keep it in mind.

Bob reads town for being proactive. Jilynne reads town as of the top of page 5. I can't see newbscum coming in so calmly with 5 votes on her, even if it was outright stated it was a pressure wagon.

Oh, what? C'mon, it made me laugh. =___=" are you serious?

I think Jilynne's rather used to pressure; I've read through some of her games, actually, and she doesn't normally react too strongly to wagons. I would say it's a null tell, actually.

[Giitah]

I guess I won't leave Archaebob hanging, then. Really, I'll be frank, I'm not sure who to kill, but the ones who have struck me as the most scummy are Hiplop and Heliman, mostly based solely on gut reads. I'm also fine with a Jilynne or Pine kill at this point, just because neither have presented anything that can be reasonably considered as useful to the town and both appear somewhat scummy to me; Jilynne for, while having participated actively in other games, HARDLY PARTICIPATED AT ALL in our game (before she went V/LA); and Pine, just because he seems to like jumping whenever anyone points so much as a finger in his direction, regardless of the fact that he's on V/LA.

@Archaebob
My vote won't move until Wednesday, then. I'll let Barry Allen speak for himself in defence.

[Giitah]

Whoever said I wanted to kill him now? I said I was fine with killing him. At this point I'm not especially comfortable with killing anyone but I also know it's pretty much necessary to gain information. He's acted pretty scummy up until now regardless of the fact that he can't give us any detailed information because of his behaviour.

[Giitah]

Whoever said I wanted to kill him now? I said I was fine with killing him. At this point I'm not especially comfortable with killing anyone but I also know it's pretty much necessary to gain information. He's acted pretty scummy up until now regardless of the fact that he can't give us any detailed information because of his behaviour.

You are either for or against a Pine lynch. Don't fencesit. You said you are fine with it, thus are in favor, correct?

If the town is all in favor of killing Pine after Wednesday, I will willingly join. So, to answer your question, yes, I am in favor of killing Pine, if it comes to it that we have no other reasonable lead we can agree on and Pine continues to act scummy.

[Giitah]

^^ Seconded.

[Giitah]

V/LA for at least the next two days

I graduate tomorrow, and was surprised this afternoon by almost my entire extended family

. It was super sweet of them, and I'm sure you can imagine why I'll find it difficult to spend significant amounts of time on this game for a few days or so.

I'm really sorry about this, especially in the context of all the shit talking I've done recently.

Still look forwards to reading Pine's incoming content, and with luck I'll be able to get a Heliman case out before deadline.

Awesooome! : ) I'm happy for you! Have fun with them, and congratulations on your graduation, mm? ^^

[Giitah]

Hold up, what the HELL? Can somebody unvote and take him off L-1 before we get some gutsy fool to hammer him before we even talk?

At this point we're at L-1 and we've got no official vote count, assuming I'm counting correctly. If anyone votes Nintendo past this point they've got a good piece of shit to say, so I'm going to put this down before I start making any talk.

[Giitah]

You're missing another piece of evidence there, Barry. I don't think we'd only have two scum in a game of 13 players, right?

Pine - 7 (ace5993, Giitah, Scumhunter, archaebob, Barry Allen, Heliman, foilist13)
Barry Allen - 2 (Valern, hiplop)
DemonHybrid - 1 (

Pine

)

Not Voting - LittleGrey,

DemonHybrid

,

nintendoaddict1

DemonHybrid's dead and nintendoaddict has to be town if we're even going to play with this evidence. Pine's also town by death call. That leaves hiplop, Valern, and LittleGrey (Jilyne's replacement) as possible suspects.

[Giitah]

@Nintendo
What warranted Foil to be vigged for having dropped a hammer vote?

[Giitah]

@Nintendo
Is that all you have to say? Do you stand by what you said and still find Foil to be extremely guilty enough to warrant a kill?

[Giitah]

So at this point you're still completely fine with killing Foil?

[Giitah]

UNVOTE:

So its Giitah, Scumhunter or Heliman eh? I have been getting a scumread from the beginning on Giitah..

At this point I have to correct you. HELL NO.

Pine - 7 (ace5993, Giitah, Scumhunter, archaebob, Barry Allen, Heliman, foilist13)

None of these players have been cleared and we have two scum on this wagon.

...fucking, at this point I don't have any idea what to think, especially in the middle of the night. I'll abandon reading over cases and trying to analyze for tonight and try again tomorrow mornining.

Everyone, how many scum do you think we're looking at here in this game? At first I was good with assuming three Mafia but now I'm not sure anymore... Heliman's point on the uselessness of a Mafia Tracker is making me doubt that there are only three Mafia.

[Giitah]

fuck, now that I think about it 4 seems stupid again. >__>

I'll have to think more on it tomorrow, obviously I'm not functioning well if I'm thinking there's 13 town and 4 Mafia in a 13-player game. >__>

[Giitah]

Can someone explain to me the pros and cons of a mass roleclaim at this point?

[Giitah]

Why thank you hiplop, that was extremely helpful. I'm looking at pros & cons for the town, thank you very much. =__="

Welcome aboard, xvart. ^^

[Giitah]

...what? This is a mess.

Ace is at L-2, Barry Allen is at L-3. Leaving this out since Ace wagon seems to be gaining steam fast.

[Giitah]

Alright people forget everything I've said today so far, I've been way off.

confirm vote ace

HoS: Foilist

In my Neighborhood QT with foililst, he told me that he, DH, and ace were all

masons

.

More importantly, he said the other masons were

told

I was going to be neighborized last night.

Sorry to break it to you ace, but you've been outed by someone else's blunder.

Archaebob, what the hell is this? D'you mean you're calling bullshit on Ace because he apparently didn't know?

Archaebob, is Foil confirmed town to you or not?

Erm. One observation at this point: I noticed this at first, but there's potential that Foil could be a Mafia Mason recruiter/leader, whatever you want to call it. I mean, this works against the sensor role quite well... but this is really only speculation; I don't even know who to believe at this point.

@Nintendo
So he contradicted himself, is there anything else you wanted to say?

[Giitah]

Tell me about it...

No one put another vote on Ace. And someone needs to unvote, nao.

[Giitah]

Okay, so before we kll Foilist, is there anything left to say? I don't think an analysis of Nintendo's report will help us at this point since we have a target, we can reanaylze it tomorrow.

Nintendo, quickly, without regard to reasoning, can you tell us your gut claims on all the players?

[Giitah]

Pine - 7 (ace5993, Giitah, Scumhunter,

archaebob

, Barry Allen, Heliman,

foilist13

) 2 scum
foil - 6 (ace5993,

archaebob

, xvart, Scumhunter, Barry Allen,

nintendoaddict1

) 2 scum
Never voted on a lynch: Valern, Hiplop

Nintendo, can you quickly explain to me how xvart is most definitely scum?

[Giitah]

All in favour of a mass roleclaim, bold + say I, against, nah.

I

[Giitah]

@ ace -

Yeah maybe. I guess it's a little null.

Who do you think is scum?

Mainly still nintendo, who's way scummier than BA imo. BA/nintendo still aren't on the same side even considering foil is scum, although 814 is not relevant anymore because it assumed whoever targeted you was town. I still think the last post yesterday before the hammer was a HUGE slip from nintendo. I'm interested to see what nintendo comes up with for his sensor report tomorrow.

Aside from those two Giitah's play has been horrible today, all fluff questions/blending in to the crowd and no scumhunting. 830 in particular reads scum to me.

I can't say I disagree. I spent the day lurking and watching for the most part; I didn't find anything worthy to speak mind to, really.

[Giitah]

Okay, that was stretching it a lot in the wrong way. More like I didn't know what to say. >_> Perhaps I ought to read over what kind of bullshit my brain forms when it tries to reword nasty topics.

[Giitah]

I'll actually have to question Nintendo's claim now. There's something very odd here.

If we look at the setup and just assume there are only Townies and Mafia and that the Town and Mafia successfully kill each day & night, here's the best winning sets for a three-man and four-man team of scum.
(Townies:Mafia, starting at Day 1 with everyone alive)

9-4
7-4
5-4
Day 4 opens, Mafia victory (4-4)

10-3
8-3
6-3
4-3
Day 5 opens, Mafia victory (3-3)

Again, this is just in the best scenarios probability wise. I'm going to go look at what happens if even a single scum gets lynched, but I'll leave this - this is important.

I think there is a high possibility we could be dealing with four Mafia, meaning if we mislynch, we lose.

[Giitah]

Hiplop, I'm going to do some number crunching right now and check the probabilities of a three team Mafia winning against ten Townies.

Er... is there any rules against looking at a mod's history? o_O

[Giitah]

@Barry Allen
I'm wary, though; if it turns out there IS a 4-man Mafia, this is our pitfall.

[Giitah]

Going far too fast, xvart - if you examine the flavour the kills each morning, SK Barry Allen normally only got a couple lines of flavour text in comparison to the Mafia kill's flavour text.

[Giitah]

Really, Barry Allen? I'm interested, what does xvart look like to you right now?

[Giitah]

FoS: Scumhunter

Barry Allen, why are you ridiculing xvart's claim before he makes it and discrediting him as if he HAS to be scum when only a page ago you saw it only as an informative win-win lynch?

[Giitah]

It's not necessary for me to say I told you so at this point, is it?

Nintendo, your attempts at trying to justify yourself are pathetic. It's a failed gambit, now drop the act.

[Giitah]

Vote Nintendo

Use tonight to go investigate everyone left alive. Valern, we need input from you.

Nintendo's at L-1, for anyone interested.

[Giitah]

Hold up, never mind, I take that back. Would anyone else be in favour of making arguments now and shit like that so tomorrow, even if someone's dead we still have their input?

unvote

[Giitah]

I'm not sure if that counts as a vote so someone unvote NOW.

[Giitah]

Bullshit.

Barry Allen reads the scummiest of all scum vibe from me. I don't have any bloody idea who's going to die tonight but his hunting of Scumhunter and the fact that he was the one who pushed to kill xvart so strongly reads to me as Nintendo's buddy. His usage of 'logic' to define who to kill yesterday also seemed to just be playing towards appeal to probability and crap. Just getting this out of the way.

Hiplop needs some investigating but I agree with the reads of the dead players, he appears mostly town to me but he's getting drawn around by BA like hell.

Valern I have no idea.

Ace appears town to me.

Scumhunter also appears town to me.

[Giitah]

Barry Allen, I don't think it's at all necessary to get into this argument. The methods by which you pushed to kill xvart were all by logic, and your attack on Scumhunter reads as trying to go for another easy lynch. You've also got half a dozen scumreads on you from our dead players, and you've got one from me too.

Er, when I said investigation, I meant reading over posts, not legit investigation.

[Giitah]

Valern's lool and his rather bemused expression (am I making faces out of posts again? =__=" sorry) make it look more like he just realized he did something stupid.

If it wern't for the fact that I'd unvoted he would have hammered Nintendo. ._. Watch that one, Valern.

[Giitah]

BA, I'm going to take a leaf at Archaebob's books and I'm going to check up all the cases we've managed to build against you so far PLUS I'm going to see what I can find on everyone elses' past reads of you. I haven't really liked your playing to begin with but the way you got xvart lynched reads damn scummy as hell to me, plus apologizing and pointing out your logic again unnecessarily. You reek of scum and I'm pretty determined to make sure I find out. Plus, your ellipsises make me think that you know exactly what I'm talking about and you're only trying to sit on your claim.

[Giitah]

BA, they chose Heliman over you, YOU'RE SCUM.

[Giitah]

If BA is actually alive tomorrow, just kill him and end the game. Either Ace or I will probably die tonight; if BA dies you guys are all on your own because really I have NO idea.

BA has been confirmed tracker since d2, why is he still alive? lolololol... I forgot that piece of evidence. ^^

[Giitah]

Meh.

I'm not scum, Barry, I was just skimming. e.e

I pointed out Nintendo lying D1 about his RVS voting and did all the research to prove it. Why would I go to all that trouble of incriminating him if I was buddies with him?

I seem to recall Bob saying something about how Foilist and Ace

had

to be scum together but tbh after D1 ended before I was even fully caught up I haven't done more than skimmed anything since. This game moves too fast and I work too much to have any hopes of reading it all. :s

right, thanks for that one. Bob especially and some of the other dead townies left some important stuff back there for us to read. Look for connections tonight and pray you don't die so you can kill the last Mafia tomorrow.

I better get back to studying. Today's been good,

[Giitah]

BA, explain to me why you're alive instead of Heliman.

[Giitah]

Better, explain that to everyone else tomorrow.

Lmfao, thanks for that one Nintendo. ^^

So what was that about a Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Tracker?

[Giitah]

Pointing out that there was no scum roleblocker, it was a town one - Pine.

[Giitah]

Fuck... good point. Foilist's choice in involving Ace. I forgot about that.
>___>
Well, this makes things more complicated...

Never mind about the BA is scum if he's alive tomorrow thing, there's something else amiss.

[Giitah]

Apologies to BA, if I get killed tonight it's probably to incriminate BA.

[Giitah]

Just something to think about now, BA got killed last night and was proven to be a Town Tracker. The fact that they chose to kill him now indicates that they've given up on their scheme that BA pointed out for us - that they longer he lived the more suspicious BA looked.
This tells us any of these things:

• Day 6 is highly probable (indicating either of these things: 1) They think one of their scummates will die today, 2) There is only one scum remaining)
  
• BA is viewed as a dangerous townie (not just in role, but in playing, meaning they're wary of his scumhunting)

Of these possibilities, I'm inclined to believe either of the possibilities from the first possibility (err... heheheh. maybe I should have a different way to write this out. xD!) that either there's only one scum left or they think of their mates will die today. If the latter is true, I would say it's pretty incriminating on Ace.

I guess this is wild speculation now, but if anything these are just some quick thoughts. Now that I rethink now I also realize it's not exactly the best idea to try and speculate the intentions of the killer since it's all WIFOM anyway, so...
S:
Looks like I need to do some rereading.

[Giitah]

Amusingly enough, that's not in place anymore, but why do you say that, Hiplop?

[Giitah]

I'm creamy white.
Hiplop?

[Giitah]

Ace, are you still on vacation?

[Giitah]

Does anybody have any idea what Foil's gambit was supposed to be? I'm interested in some theories now.

[Giitah]

In context of the day and timing, Foil naming Ace to be his masonbuddy was some bad screwup gambit from what I can tell. Foil himself said it was a risky gambit of sorts, but what the hell was the motive? I think the best bet would be that Foil was trying to clear himself permanently as a townie.

However, I'm no longer certain if there's anything to glean from Foil's gambit. Was Foil attempting to convince Archaebob he was Town? If so, what was the point of that? I think we can all safely say that Archaebob was too dangerous to live another day, he was basically a confirmed Town player. So when Foil went forward with his claim, was he trying to force everyone to kill someone else, alleviate the suspiscions on him, and then kill Bob after that?

I think the ultimate point of the gambit was to clear Foil in the eyes of Archaebob, claim, get Archaebob to give him a cleared town read, then murder Archaebob afterwards. That being said, the inclusion of Ace was to make his claim seem more believable.

Post 827:

Ignoring all reads and looking at this from a completely neutral 50/50 of each lynch being scum:

However, BA is also the one out of the three I have the town read on.

Wait... what? Everyone: read that quote slowly and get back to me.


Foil why the hell did you claim?

Vote: ace

foil and ace are scum. Well there's our two scum on the Pine wagon.

This pushes me to believe Nintendo was trying to get Ace mislynched. He didn't even present any reasoning as to why Ace and Foil had to be scum, hell, this should have been caught on ages ago. This was prior to Ace claiming he wasn't a mason and Archaebob declaring Foil & Ace were scum. Page 34 if anyone wants to reread with me.

ill hammer sometime tomorrow. Just letting you guys know.

Why wait until tomorrow? ace and foil are obviously both scum together.

Unvote, Vote: foil

Too lazy to check the post number, but here's Nintendo pushing to kill Ace again. For now, I've spun around on Ace being scum and he's back to being a town player again.

Oh, one last quote. This here sounds like it's mostly the scum-Foilist talking.

My history with him warranted it. We have reached the point in the game where archaebob will either cease to suspect me entirely or commit himself to lynching me and whomever he thinks is my scum team. My friendly neighbor ability allows me to talk and confirms me as town. It does not confirm anyone to me. I suppose it's like forming an unconfirmed mason team. As far as him saying he thinks I'm town yesterday, that has absolutely no merit. Archaebob is not exactly a transparent player as you might have guessed. The point in targeting him with my neighbor power was to try and alleviate his suspicions.

That being said, I don't know that archaebob is town. He could very well be scum. Historically I have been bad at determining his alignment.

[Giitah]

I meant that I think he revealed at least part of his true intentions behind his gambit in that post.

[Giitah]

Unfortunately at this point I'm raising eyebrows at everyone I overlooked before, which means the rest of you except Ace aren't looking too great to me. I noted while going through Nintendo's posts ISO that you were the one our resident scum nervously RVS voted for, Scumhunter, so I need to look for more association before I come to a better conclusion. Hiplop, you were the biggest suspect of xvart before he got blatantly accused, and as for Valern, well, nobody has an accurate enough read on you at this point which comes off as pretty scummy to me.

[Giitah]

There was a reason why I asked Ace if he was still on vacation, Valern - he hasn't been around from what I can tell.

And a quick look at your rather feeble posts tell me no, you haven't posted a single thing about Ace since foilist was killed.

As for what you have to say on my post, durrhurr, trollololol. All I'm saying is that no one sticks out like a sore thumb to me as scum, so I need to reread. Fair?

[Giitah]

Assuming one scum left we have today left and then it's three alive, assuming three Mafia-team. If we have four Mafia, well, this is lylo then. But at this point I'm pretty certain it's not lylo yet...

[Giitah]

Damnit, HIM.

I'm a GUY.

Honestly, I don't really know right now so I think I'm just going to do a bit of rereading tonight and then start voting, too.

[Giitah]

I've completed a read-through of about two-thirds of the thread until now to try and finalize a vote for Wednesday. I'll finish up tonight.

[Giitah]

its gotta be ace/foilist/nintendo..

Post 961, why did you think Ace was so scummy?

A final thought on Ace, Ace could be scum if Foilist and Nintendo are intelligent enough to fuck with our heads, but I wouldn't think they'd be intelligent enough to plant that much information ahead of time unless... well, if Ace was scum that'd be some dangerous mindscrew so I guess it'd be a possibility.

Scumhunter still reads town to me after the reread.

Hiplop was too suspiciously certain of the xvart and an Ace lynches earlier for me to trust him. I don't sense a malicious intent but his disregard for the possibility that Nintendo was lying is suspicious to me.

Valern is a null-read, probably due to apathy rather than anything else.

Having said that, I want to cast my vote on Valern simply because to me at the moment he's the most expendable mislynch. While Hiplop is the worst player of the lot, his intentions read much more honestly than Valern and thus I'd rather kill him than anyone else.

VOTE:

Vote: Valern

[Giitah]

the whole bob/foilistmason thing, really had me suspicious of ACE, now i see it probably was a gambit, but the suspicion still stands in the back of my mind.

Not liking your quickvote. You had more to say about me in a poor light than Valern, yet you voted him, why?

You're a bad player but I've only sensed town motivation from you. Valern, on the other hand, is much less focused and hasn't managed to convince me that he's Town, making him a much more viable mislynch than you.

And you call it a quickvote, but this is the final day of day 5, am I not right?

[Giitah]

@Hiplop I'm not really willing to argue on that, it's just my judgement that you don't play well. And how am I pulling a card on you?

All I was trying to say was that if Valern is town, he's also the one I'm most prepared to lose.

[Giitah]

Hiplop, we could go on with twisting my words all you like, this could take a while and it's only serving to irritate me.

I already said I'd rather lynch Valern than anyone else because he's the one who gives me the weakest vibes at this point and I don't trust him.

[Giitah]

Damnit, this SUCKS.

And I just realized something even dumber, day 5's ending NEXT Wednesday, not this Wednesday, which means I have another damn week to sit here and stew.

Valern, aside from me pushing to get you killed today, what makes you suddenly so certain I'm scum?

[Giitah]

why are you willing to lose a town player?

That.

[Giitah]

Scumhunter, out of interest, what do you think of Ace?

Her lack of devotion to her commitments amuse me.

[Giitah]

I think i'm still really stuck between Valern or Scumhunter; I can't see everyone's reads being so wrong on hiplop, I'm convinced Ace isn't scum, and I know I'm town. Scumhunter's play so far has thus been different enough from all the games I've read up on all him which makes me a little nervous and Valern's intentions and motivations don't read protown enough at this point, still leaving me distrusting him.

Waiting to see Ace's input now, too.

[Giitah]

Welcome back, Ace, even though what you have to say isn't helpful to me in the slightest.

@Day 1 arguments
I found Pine to be scummy because he had a tendency to point his finger at anyone who so much as looked at him. I didn't have any legitimate argument against him, all I found was that what he said reeked of scum to me.

@#73
I was questioning Nintendo here because I felt there was definitely something off about how he said Foil ought to be vigged. I didn't find anything in his responses, so I dropped it after that.

@#85
My main suspect at that time was BA, and I focused on him instead of targeting Nintendo.

On what you have to say about page 40: I don't see how two fake power roles make another claim any more believable. In any case, I don't agree with your logic here.

Page 41 is me remembering that there was a scum motivation to keep BA alive + something else up with Foil's gambit that blew away my argument that BA had to be the last scum.

@#124
What?

@#126
My opnion on hiplop was stated a while ago, I don't agree with a lot of his actions but I find his motivations to be pro-town.

tl;dr, post by post analysis SUCKS for the reason that you're only going to find incriminating evidence because your finds will be influenced by outside opinions and your own feelings towards said persons' alignment. I'm town, not the last scum.

[Giitah]

hiplop, there is no way there would be 4 scum in this game given our power role set. There is 1 scum left almost for sure. Do you think valern is town then?

by POE. yeah valern is town for now

Doesn't work. There's one conclusion Valern missed, that would be that he's scum/I'm scum and that our partner is waiting for someone else to put a vote down so we can quicklynch.

Hiplop, what's so bad about it?

@Valern
You gotta be kidding me, right?

[Giitah]

Ah, okay.

[Giitah]

It doesn't make me suspect you, but it makes me wary of you if anything, Scumhunter. You normally play semi-aggressively both as town and Mafia and you're playing neither here. It makes me think you might be Mafia, but I'm allowing my gut feelings to override that.

If I die, be persistent tomorrow guys. Don't give up. Read up on lylo situs and review. I've already said my feelings on everyone, try your best.

I still think it's Valern or Scumhunter; Hiplop reads too town for me and Ace is cleared because of the Foil incident, but again, consider all options.

[Giitah]

After all of yesterday's talk about how absolutely town Hiplop is, it's amusing he's alive. What do you think, Hiplop?

@Valern
Hey, at least you're dead now, you don't have to suffer through this hell of trying to figure out which of these two's the killer.

[Giitah]

ace was pretty much unani town too, and so was scumhunter; why did you pick me out of the bunch giitah?

There was still a shred of doubt, of the two, you were the one who was considered unanimously by the town to be town.
Going to analyze voting patterns and see what I can find.

[Giitah]

Ace fits the bill of being a prototypical good scum - playing it hard on Day 1 to get town points and then slowly trailing off as the days go by. We haven't had any good material from him since Day 1.

Hiplop's play has overall been the same since the beginning - I think with Hiplop, a better place to look would be at association tells, but I don't think Foilist ever even addressed Hiplop at all and Nintendo might have argued with him at some point.

I think if we ask ourselves why so-and-so player is alive at this point, we have a pretty clear-cut answer. If the scum were looking to kill an intelligent player, why do you think they chose Scumhunter over you, Ace?

[Giitah]

Hiplop, since I don't think there's anything but a gut case on me, all I can do is tell you

I'm town

. If Ace hammers then it's all over. >_>

[Giitah]

Unyaa... Hiplop. >_>

[Giitah]

So, Archaebob will hand us our heads... how do you feel?

[Giitah]

Ace, role?

Damn, I just lost my first game since I came back. D:

[Giitah]

Also foil you realize that if you die I'm also screwed because there's no motivation for scum-foil to pick a non-scum as the other mason. VERY displeased with this claim, you've basically set it up so that as soon as one tiny thing happens to make it look like you're lying we're both dead. Have you envisioned a way for me to get out of this situation? It's impossible to go along with the mason claim if something goes wrong this early.

EDIT: What has bob said so far? @mod is he allowed to c/p the neighbor discussion?
Edited 06-27-2011 04:34 PM

Damn, it looks like I was right about what I said about Foilist's gambit. Too bad I wasn't suspicious enough of Ace to push for his lynch. >_>

T____T Letting xvart get lynched was a big mistake too. I should have fought harder.

GUYS I NEED A SPINE!

[Giitah]

Anyway, regaining some composure, good game, Mafia, you earned your victory there.

As for the town... well, fuck. Sorry. >.>

[Giitah]

@Hiplop
What was it that was so scummy about me? S:

[Giitah]

As I said in deadchat, since foil claimed ace as his partner in the quicktopic from the get-go, it would have made no sense if foil was trying to make Ace out to be the fall-guy, because it would have meant that he went into his plan knowing he would be caught. Shame I got picked off before I could mention that >_>.

The details of how he would make Arche believe he was town and gain towncred from his approval are still foggy to me, but I can definitely see Ace never being brought up again if nobody challenged the claim harshly. In any case it made less sense that Foilist would do his gambit knowing it wouldn't work. I think that's where the problem was: the gambit was a mistake from the getgo and thus it was hard to determine exactly what role Ace was in relation to Foilist.

In any case, from my standpoint I'm saddened by how this ended out, but I'm still not really sure how to go about getting better. Still, it was kinda fun. Difficult, though; I still have a lot to learn to get better at this game.