Mini 1166: Town Hall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Rhinox]

Emp, what makes you think mafia wouldn't be able to both RB and kill at the same time?

Rhinox: who's scum?

I'm having a hard time not thinking its emp. It still only seems like the only reason I'm scum to him is because he's declaring it so. I'm also still suspicious of ThAd and I'll look more into sAb given he's your choice for lynch.

Rhinox:
You found a 3rd choice: Make it seem like you wanted Archaist to die while actually effecting a no-lynch. Best case C-Worl's attacks against me and MK carry. Worst case Archaist dies anyhow the next day buy there's one less lynch for the town.

ummm... no? Thats just an unjustified theory there's really nothing for me to say about it. I see you trying to manipulate me into a corner. First, iam's catch is so good that voting arch is my only play, but then you also argue I was trying to cause a nolynch. None of it makes sense because if I were scum, there was a better play to cause a nolynch (leave my vote where it was, or vote ThAd for a mislynch > no lynch), and there was a better play to bus (just vote to L-1, no fake hammer). My play accomplishes neither very well if I'm scum.

Considering the fact that Arch was scum, if he knew you fake hammered, he could have taken advantaged and claimed a power role or something so that people would unvote him. That's what I would have tried to do if I was Arch.

But what does my fake hammer have anything to do with what he claims or when? He could have claimed a PR at any time. He could have claimed a PR if instead of fake hammering, I just announced he was at L-1. He could have claimed a PR if someone else put him to L-1. You're trying to link my fake hammer to something arch could have done, but there's nothing to justify the link.

Well as you said it depends on the claim and then seeing if anyone else counter-claimed. But still, wouldn't that be why it would make sense to claim if Arch (still scum) thought you faked hammered?

Sure, if he actually realized he was only fake hammered and not real hammered. But if I would have voted and said *L-1* he still could have claimed a PR the same way. So what I'm getting at is trying to figure out why you're trying to make my fake hammer seem more evil than it really is. If I'm arch's scum partner and wanted to set him up to make a PR claim, I didn't have to fake hammer, all I had to do was put him at L-1.

I get what you tried to do about trying to get the "bah go town" kind of post. But if Arch claimed a PR (and actually was that PR), then that would hurt the town, since at that time we didn't know there was a doc in play to protect him so scum would target him.

[/quote]Hurt the town compared to what? If I follow what you've been arguing, you're saying my fake hammer could have cause arch to claim a PR, and if he really was a PR that would hurt the town because scum could target him. Are you comparing this to me not voting at all, or me straight up voting him to L-1 rather than fake hammering? I still argue that a PR not getting lynched and getting nked instead is better than a PR getting lynched, but worse than the PR not claiming at all.

Let me ask you this, would you be questioning me all the same today if I'd have just voted arch to L-1 and not fake-hammered?

[sAbLLimINal]

Why would you be afraid that ThAd would vote iama over Rhinox tomorrow, when he voted Rhinox over iama today?

Well besides the fact that iama is targetting ThAd right now, I just get the impression that ThAd might do something like that. I just wouldn't want to see this game end like that, especially after we were able to kill a goon day 1.

I still argue that a PR not getting lynched and getting nked instead is better than a PR getting lynched, but worse than the PR not claiming at all.

Alright yeah I'll agree with you there. Having a PR getting lynched would just open up more opprotunities for scum to NK another PR. I guess it's just the way you said it makes it seem like you are telling your scum buddy to do something. It's probably just bad intuition.

Let me ask you this, would you be questioning me all the same today if I'd have just voted arch to L-1 and not fake-hammered?

Not as much, but I would still find you suspicious because of the final couple of votes. Like I said before, your vote on Arch seemed really defeated. After you had been pressuring MK for some time, you said that you would focus more on ThAd and iama, and seem to ignore MK.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm having a hard time following what your stance is sab. Who is your preferred lynch for today, and if you had vig powers who would you kill tonight, and why?

[iamausername]

Random thought: I would like to strongly discourage Fishy from shooting EmpTyger. The fact that he is pretty much trying to goad you into doing it means one of two things:

a) he's town, who genuinely believes his death at your hands will ultimately improve our chances of victory
b) he's scum who has no reason to fear being shot, due to immunity/blocking ability

Now, I think the first is vastly more likely, but the point is it doesn't matter how likely you think either scenario is; either way, shooting him is a bad idea.

[Rhinox]

or c) he's scum, trying to appear to be a) or b) so as to persuade fishy to not shoot him per your reasoning
or d) he's a scum RB and knows fishy is getting blocked no matter who he tries to shoot
or etc.

--------------------------------

Like I said before, your vote on Arch seemed really defeated.

What do you mean by this?

After you had been pressuring MK for some time,

you said that you would focus more on ThAd and iama, and seem to ignore MK.

I guess I'm starting to buy this kuz/arch scum theory,

but if arch flips town

then ThAd is prob scum and I'll be taking a closer look at IAUN as well.

Key phrase you must have missed. If arch would have flipped town, I'd have been looking into ThAd and iama.

Also, how exactly did I ignore MK? My iso #15 was my firts post that didn't have anything to do with MK since I voted in iso 12, and 15 was also my last post of the day, and then MK died overnight. So... how did I ignore MK after pressuring him?

[Fishythefish]

2 days until deadline. We need a lynch. Everyone should be voting at this stage, and given the general thinking they should probably be voting for either Rhinox or sAb.

[EmpTyger]

iama:
Then persuade Fishy to vigkill a different target.  Persuade him to vigkill Rhinox tonight.  Or even persuade him to lynch me today and vigkill sAb tonight, provided that you all promise to lynch Rhinox tomorrow if the game goes to 3-person endgame.  I don't care.  I just want there to be as few ways for Rhinox to slink away tomorrow, despite Fishy doing everything he can to keep Rhinox's options open.  I can't get through to him and I don't know what else I can try.


Fishy:
Even if there is a mafia roleblocker who can kill & block: it doesn't matter what you say.
And if there is a mafia roleblocker who cannot kill & roleblock: it doesn't matter what you say.
If there is a mafia godfather: it is better for the town if you say your target than if you don't say your target.
How is this so hard to understand?

There should be no uncertainty tomorrow about what you will have done tonight.
There should be no lynch before removing this uncertainty.
You have given no thought whatsoever to how this will play out if sAb is revealed as innocent.  
You are doing everything in your power to waste the town's opportunities.  There are 2 days left.  Quit it.

(And also, quit trying to divide the vote this close to deadline.  It's unhelpful.  We're lynching whoever *you* vote for.  There's no point to competing bandwagons.)


Rhinox:
What's the point of [354], other than to continue your slinking through D2?  You offer nothing constructive on the issue of the vigkill, nothing to identify who you think should be today's lynch, nothing about who the mafia are.  Just opinionless words.  Just like you've done all day, when you haven't been lurking.  Slink, slink, slink.

[Fishythefish]

Even if there is a mafia roleblocker who can kill & block: it doesn't matter what you say.
And if there is a mafia roleblocker who cannot kill & roleblock: it doesn't matter what you say.
If there is a mafia godfather: it is better for the town if you say your target than if you don't say your target.
How is this so hard to understand?

There should be no uncertainty tomorrow about what you will have done tonight.
There should be no lynch before removing this uncertainty.
You have given no thought whatsoever to how this will play out if sAb is revealed as innocent.  
You are doing everything in your power to waste the town's opportunities.  There are 2 days left.  Quit it.

If there is a roleblocker who cannot kill and block, then if I say I'm targetting town he can kill me and be in a 2v1. If I keep quiet and he blocks me out of fear, it's 4v1.
If there is a roleblocker who can kill and block, then I agree it doesn't matter. Tomorrow we are either in a 2v1 or 3v1 (and in the latter case you should no lynch).
If there is a mafia godfather then saying my target is still very meh, because we aren't ever going to know there's one.
It's hard to understand because you haven't ever given me any reason why you want to know the nightkill.

Why should there be no uncertainty about who I shot at? In what circumstance could it affect your decisions?
I have given plenty of thought to how this will play out if sAb is revealed as innocent. Nowhere, anywhere, have I seen a good reason that I should be saying who I'm shooting.
What opportunities am I wasting? You say I'm keeping Rhinox's options open if he is scum. How? If you mean massclaim, I wouldn't have minded one (probably too late now) but I can't see what possible good it could have done. Other than that, I really don't see what you mean, except that I'm disagreeing with you about whether he's scum.

It's not at all clear there is sufficient support for lynching whoever *I* vote for.

[sAbLLimINal]

@ThAd:I've already been saying you and Rhinox.

@Rhinox: Well, you said "ugh, I guess..." and by the definition of ugh it means "Used to express disgust or horror." So when you used ugh, I am interpreting that you are showing you are digusted that someone found some kind of catch on Arch.

About the part of you ignoring MK - even if arch had flipped town you still stated that you would focus more on ThAd and iama. That's why I felt it was odd that when you were voting Arch, you weren't considering MK anymore.

@fishy: Why Rhinox after you stated that you wanted me and emp dead?

@emp: Would you rather lynch me or Rhinox?

@iama: I find it weird that you are just sitting in the back seat today, compared to yesterday when you were in the front. Who are you leaning towards as scum?

[Fishythefish]

Because Rhinox is a realistic lynch today. Emp is not. We need a lynch.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm pretty happy to follow you at this juncture. Rhinox and sab are my scumpicks so I would be up for a lynch of either of them.

[iamausername]

Why does everyone think ThAd is town? Well, because if he was scum, he must have bussed hard yesterday. Right.

I don't have trouble believing that he would do this. More specifically, I don't have trouble believing that he would put his partner to L-1 very early on D1, knowing that it would result in these kind of reactions:

I won't be hammering right now since I feel that this wagon has been leaped on much too quickly. People seem to be jumping on one post because of over defensiveness, and since I was lynched early game the first time I played a game on here because I was over defensive, I'm immediately wary of the whole reasoning behind this wagon. It seems to be mostly comprised of people leaping onto the wagon.

This is a horrible reason to put kuz at L-1. Even if that is the best point in the game, its not a L-1 worthy point.

and figuring that the wagon would dissolve pretty quickly. Having done this, he locked himself into sticking with that vote when the wagon actually didn't dissolve. Though he certainly tried to get away when C-Worl presented an opportunity.

There's also the fact that Archaist seemed to be angling for a No Lynch when he could easily have achieved a ThAd lynch. I don't see that "Archaist is scum" is a reasonable explanation for that behaviour in and of itself; I don't think he had the experience to realise that No Lynch is actually a better result for scum than a town lynch, because that's not very intuitive.

There's also ThAd's horrible, horrible reaction when I voted him today. First he made a really clumsy attempt at accusing me of a scum-slip for knowing scum shot C-Worl, then suggested that me going back on my town read after Fishy's claim was a scummy contradiction, when I'd called everyone but Fishy town in that post, thus requiring that I changed my mind about one of them.

That fits as scum behaviour for me a lot more than any of Emp, Rhinox or sAb.

---

iama:
Then persuade Fishy to vigkill a different target. Persuade him to vigkill Rhinox tonight. Or even persuade him to lynch me today and vigkill sAb tonight, provided that you all promise to lynch Rhinox tomorrow if the game goes to 3-person endgame. I don't care. I just want there to be as few ways for Rhinox to slink away tomorrow, despite Fishy doing everything he can to keep Rhinox's options open. I can't get through to him and I don't know what else I can try.

I'm trying to persuade him to shoot someone else. Pointing out why shooting you is a bad idea IS persuading him to shoot someone else. I'm not going to try to persuade him to shoot Rhinox, because I think he's right about Rhinox.

or c) he's scum, trying to appear to be a) or b) so as to persuade fishy to not shoot him per your reasoning
or d) he's a scum RB and knows fishy is getting blocked no matter who he tries to shoot
or etc.

d) was already covered in b). It renders Fishy's choice utterly irrelevant, so we might as well ignore it.
c) is pointless fearmongering of the exact same brand that said C-Worl could have been scum feigning ignorance on D1. scumTyger does not dare Fishy to shoot him in an attempted double bluff, particularly not when Fishy hadn't given any particular indication that he had any intention of shooting EmpTyger before he started doing this.

ScumTyger also doesn't get this gung-ho about killing Rhinox and only Rhinox, but that's neither here nor there.

2 days until deadline. We need a lynch. Everyone should be voting at this stage, and given the general thinking they should probably be voting for either Rhinox or sAb.

Yeah.

Unvote

VOTE: sAbLLimINal

After Fishy's Post #349, I no longer think Rhinox is the one I'm most likely to have wrongly cleared. Still think it's ThAd, but that ain't happening today.

[Beefster]

Votecount 2.5

sAb (2) - Fishy, iamausername

Rhinox (1) - ThAdmiral

Not Voting

- sAb, Rhinox, EmpTyger

With 6 players alive, it takes

4

to lynch.

Deadline hits is in (expired on 2011-06-17 14:00:00). Please finalize your

purchases

lynch or a no lynch will happen.

[ThAdmiral]

unvote

Vote: sab

I'm not sure I'll be able to get on again before deadline.

[Fishythefish]

That mod post scared me... didn't realise it was a countdown timer. We need one more vote on sAb.

[EmpTyger]

Fishy:
If in 3 weeks I couldn't get you to listen, I'm not going to in 9 hours. (Especially when you are clearly incapable of basic analysis. 2v1 after a vigkill is equivalent to 4v1 without!) It's up to iama now; hopefully he's more reasonable. I wasted too much time on you.


iama:
Every thing you said about ThAd is more true about Rhinox.

* Rhinox put an early vote on kuz, too, before ThAd. And he was the first off the wagon, encouraging those very wagon-dissolving reactions.
* ThAd temporarily abandoned the Archaist bandwagon to vote C-Worl? Fine. Rhinox abandoned the Archaist bandwagon to vote ThAd? Except ThAd returned to the Archaist bandwagon and pushed it to the end. Whereas Rhinox tried every other bandwagon he could before Archaist's lynch became inevitable and any other lynch impossible.
* You keep saying he could have easily obtained a ThAd lynch. In what window? MK was the main counterwagon. After I ended the MK wagon and Fishy voted ThAd, you posted your catch immediately afterward.
* I had the same reaction as ThAd today when you posted that. But again, compare what ThAd did D2 to what Rhinox did D2. ThAd considered suspects and tried to help the town. Rhinox has down nothing, lying so low he's flat- you even called it "pointless fearmongering".


sAb:
I think Rhinox is mafia. But I don't care if he's today's lynch, so long as he's killed either today, tonight, or tomorrow. Which won't happen if Fishy wants you and me dead, and iama wants you and ThAd dead.

If you can post *anything* to help persuade the others after you're dead, please, please do so before end-of-day.

[Fishythefish]

(Especially when you are clearly incapable of basic analysis. 2v1 after a vigkill is equivalent to 4v1 without!)

Since in the relevant scenario the vigkill

only happens if it's on town

, it isn't really like a townkill. IF we autolynch anyone I fail to kill, the situations are equivalent, but there's no particular reason we would. It's kind of an odd situation, but the analysis certainly isn't as simple as you suggest here.

You still haven't named a single scenario in which it would be good to know who I shot at.

[Rhinox]

vote: sAb

hammer.

[sAbLLimINal]

Bah, go town

[Beefster]

I guess politics is politics. Compromises, disagreements, the whole nine yards. You all turn to the jittery, nervous guy that has been taking minutes the whole time. "It's a conspiracy!" one of you shouts...

BANG!!!!

sAbLLimINal has been lynched. He was a

Vanilla Townie

Night 1 begins. You have until Monday at 9:00 AM (MDT) to submit a night action.

The kill flavor is, in fact, irrelevant of any roles present in this game

[Beefster]

Only one gunshot was heard last night. You wake up to the awful sight of Fishythefish dead. His limbs were torn off and his face had a nice little gunshot wound. A search of his house reveals that he was a

Vigilante

.

Day 3 begins! It will end on July 11.

[EmpTyger]

Massclaim?

[Fishythefish]

BAH! Go town!

[ThAdmiral]

Massclaim can't hurt.

[iamausername]

Yeah. Anyone care who goes first?