Newbie 1116 -- Game Over

[bigAl]

I have basically no feeling on Zihark, Yonzy, tucah, or Workdawg from memory (I actually had to go to the first post to find the list of names cause I couldn't remember the latter three. Looking through their posts I find:

One of VE's accusations of me ("He always appears to be second (or third) out the gates in pointing out questionable acts of others") can equally be applied to tucah - with only five posts (not counting the pregame or double posts), at least three of them are only rehashes of stuff others have said a couple posts earlier.

Workdawg has even fewer posts but the one contentful post I've seen from him seems townie.

BigAl- you look mad fishy:p lol js.

Yonzy - could you explain this statement? Perhaps I'm just too old to understand textspeak but I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

2. Whether someone is the IC or not should have nothing to do with whether you suspect them or don't suspect them. Roles are chosen randomly and everyone's posts should be looked at individually and not judged because of their IC status or any other status.

True... but an experienced mafia is less likely to slip-up than a new mafia, which means that a player's experience does matter when considering how suspicious someone is. But yes, we shouldn't assume that there will be an experience player in the mafia group.

[bigAl]

One more minor unimportant niggle:

My first actual game (that I ended up replacing out of due to IRL circumstances, AND IS CURRENTLY OVER) I didn't get a chance to read the qt and discuss things with my buddy beforehand. Just sayin'.

I haven't played a game here in a while (before quicktopic was officially introduced), so I don't know if mafia members can see (but not post in) the qt thread during the day, but I assume they can. Meaning that even if it wasn't a two way conversation, I would have had time to post some advice at least. If I were mafia that is. >.>

[Miss JJ]

@Miss JJ
You're very concerned about any posts regarding you are very accurate and clear. What I find interesting is that page 5 is going to be almost exclusively dedicated to my reads-post, and the only comment you had on any of it was clarification on you, someone I only gave a limited, non-analyzed read on in that post. This can be viewed a couple of different ways...The most obvious is that you're scum and you don't want ANY suspicion cast on you, no matter how little or inconsequential. The other (and the one I'm more inclined to believe) is that your posts have been used in the past by scum out of context and you're overly concerned about being understood entirely.

So what's your take on my reads? Am I way off? Am I full of crap? Am I some kind of Mafia prodigy with impeccable reads? Your opinion is important. Everyone's is.

Sorry I missed this earlier. I was just posting on a break during work so I didn't have much time... but I am concerned about your posts about

anyone

being clear. I just didn't see where you got your vote count.

[Miss JJ]

One more minor unimportant niggle:

My first actual game (that I ended up replacing out of due to IRL circumstances, AND IS CURRENTLY OVER) I didn't get a chance to read the qt and discuss things with my buddy beforehand. Just sayin'.

I haven't played a game here in a while (before quicktopic was officially introduced), so I don't know if mafia members can see (but not post in) the qt thread during the day, but I assume they can. Meaning that even if it wasn't a two way conversation, I would have had time to post some advice at least. If I were mafia that is. >.>

LOL This is kind of funny because you could be trying to prove you're not mafia by showing how you have no idea about QTs. I can answer this as I was mafia in a previous game - the one Grimmjow keeps talking about. Our QT was viewable even during the day when we weren't allowed to post. Anyway, it's a good point that even if both mafia didn't get a chance to post, at least one could have.

[VisceraEyes]

Okay...we're horribly lacking in input from a few of us. We still don't have a single bit of content from Zihark, we could use some input from Yonzy and Workdawg, and aside from obvious little one-liners, we haven't gotten much in the way of content from cy either.

Let's buckle down and find some scum guys, the time is now.

[bigAl]

LOL This is kind of funny because you could be trying to prove you're not mafia by showing how you have no idea about QTs. I can answer this as I was mafia in a previous game - the one Grimmjow keeps talking about. Our QT was viewable even during the day when we weren't allowed to post. Anyway, it's a good point that even if both mafia didn't get a chance to post, at least one could have.

That would be mighty sneaky of me, wouldn't it? >.>

[VisceraEyes]

LOL This is kind of funny because you could be trying to prove you're not mafia by showing how you have no idea about QTs. I can answer this as I was mafia in a previous game - the one Grimmjow keeps talking about. Our QT was viewable even during the day when we weren't allowed to post. Anyway, it's a good point that even if both mafia didn't get a chance to post, at least one could have.

That would be mighty sneaky of me, wouldn't it? >.>

It would indeed. You seem smart enough to not make a mistake like that though...

GAH, I want some moar DATAZIZ!!!

[Workdawg]

Sorry about my lack of presence so far, but I've finally had a chance to give the thread a fair read.

I have a few thoughts so far.

Grimm
There's been a lot of talk so far about "trying not to look scum," which I have noticed also. I don't really see him doing this, at least not directly. What I have noticed is that he seems to be trying to explain every significant move he makes. As opposed to trying to be deliberately cautious about what he's doing, he's explaining it all extremely thoroughly.

Another thing is your request for reads from everyone but then barely providing your own. You say you think VE is town, but don't say why. You comment on bigAl is pretty insignificant as well.

VE
Some of his posts just rub me the wrong way. In particular, I'm not really sure what to think about the seeming desire to take a leadership role. "Make sure you don't put hammer someone by accident"... etc.

I'm also interested in why he seems so concerned about what we think of his reads.

I know neither of these are great reads, but there's not much there yet.

On an unrelated note...

I rather prefer RQS to RVS. I know we are past the "random" stage of the game for the most part, but I would still like to ask at least a single question.

What is everyone's experience with mafia? How many games have you played? Here or elsewhere, online, IRL? etc.

[VisceraEyes]

Awesome! Welcome to the party Workdawg.

Sorry about my lack of presence so far, but I've finally had a chance to give the thread a fair read.

I have a few thoughts so far.

Grimm
There's been a lot of talk so far about "trying not to look scum," which I have noticed also. I don't really see him doing this, at least not directly. What I have noticed is that he seems to be trying to explain every significant move he makes. As opposed to trying to be deliberately cautious about what he's doing, he's explaining it all extremely thoroughly.

Another thing is your request for reads from everyone but then barely providing your own. You say you think VE is town, but don't say why. You comment on bigAl is pretty insignificant as well.

VE
Some of his posts just rub me the wrong way. In particular, I'm not really sure what to think about the seeming desire to take a leadership role. "Make sure you don't put hammer someone by accident"... etc.

I'm also interested in why he seems so concerned about what we think of his reads.

I know neither of these are great reads, but there's not much there yet.

On an unrelated note...

I rather prefer RQS to RVS. I know we are past the "random" stage of the game for the most part, but I would still like to ask at least a single question.

What is everyone's experience with mafia? How many games have you played? Here or elsewhere, online, IRL? etc.

Okay, in response to your bit about me.

I'm NO leader. It might appear that way from A) my sheer NUMBER of posts, B) my strength of conviction in a few posts and C) my herding inactives. I'm just trying to find scum, my guy. If there's some kind of law against that, then CALL ME GUILTY!! LOL.....anyway, I'm interested in what people think of my reads because it gives me information about them.

For instance...Let's say Player A calls out a SCUM read on Player B. Player C soft-agreed with Player A. Player D jumps in and says 'Hey, wait a second pal, Player B is the Towniest Town that ever Towned a Town!' Let's just say for the sake of argument that his reasoning was flimsy and Player B gets lynched anyway. Player B flips SCUM. Now Player A has not only a good read on Player D, but a semi-read on Player C as well.

Peoples' opinions and the analysis of them are at the core of scumhunting. Find the contradictions. Find the inconsistencies. FIND THE SCUM!!

[bigAl]

> What is everyone's experience with mafia? How many games have you played? Here or elsewhere, online, IRL? etc.

I played campfire IRL mafia once, really loved it, joined here, played a dozen or so games here several years ago, got busy with life and whatnot. This is my first game in a few years. (See my wiki page for the games I've played here.)

[tucah]

I'll post some detailed reads either later tonight or tomorrow (EST), depending on how long it takes to read through and compile stuff. I've also been pretty sick so I haven't been paying much attention to the game over the past day or so (but I'll be better and active tomorrow!).

@Workdawg - This is my first mafia game anywhere. I've read through a few to see how games generally progress but pretty much I signed up here because it sounded like a ton of fun

[VisceraEyes]

My experience with Mafia is pretty limited. I got started on Mafia on the Team Liquid website (I'm a SC2 nerd, you got me ) maybe...2 months ago? I signed up for this site shortly after and this is my first game here.

All and all I've played a total of 2 mafia games to completion...but TL Mafia has a lot of good resource material to read, so I've been reading a lot of it.

[Miss JJ]

VE, first my comments about your read on Grimmjow along with my read on him:

Grimmjow - I didn't see his "bullshit" comment about Yonzy's vote as a chainsaw defense of Workdawg. I can understand what you are saying, I just didn't think it was that aggressive and I doubt he would be that obvious over an RVS vote for his fellow mafia. His FoS on bigAl could go either way for me. I can understand his suspicions of Al's big IC post but I thought it was good advice to scrutinize everyone. It was good, sound advice that town should follow. Some of his other reasons for looking at people are a bit too suspicious, though. I had problems with the site the same day Al said he did so when I saw Grimmjow immediately jumping on that as a reason to suspect him I saw it as reaching. I also don't agree that you should suspect the IC just because he's the IC. You should not just believe him because he's IC, either, which I said earlier. And then there's the game with me - sure, I was mafia but that alone is no reason to think I am in this game. To me some of these things seem either paranoid or contrived. Mafia would need to manufacture reasons on suspecting people so this would fit. Also, his strong statement of disbelieving Cymru but then not voting for him. That tipped him toward scum for me. If you think someone's lying - vote them! His opinion seemed to relax a bit on that but has it really or is he just giving an excuse as to why he is going to look elsewhere?

So, once again...

VOTE: Grimmjow


I also noted that both VE and Grimmjow have indicated they think the other is town.

As for myself, the only person I have marked off my list thus far (though that in no way means I'm not still going to be watching) is VE.

Grimmjow, why have you marked VE off your list?

Just popping in real quick to post what I found funny (hahah, not "huh" funny)

Am I some kind of Mafia prodigy with impeccable reads?

Bullshit.

Anyway, I am going to reserve my judgements until more people post on their reads. I'm curious to see what everyone things. I already have some comments that I might make towards VE's post(s), but I would like to see a few more respond first.

I don't like this. I would prefer you post now before you see others' posts. Is VE still crossed off your list?

[bigAl]

Ninjad by VE. I'm sure there's some kind of inspirational quote here that would be appropriate... something like "leaders aren't chosen, they're made". That's a bad quote but the point is, whether or not VE wants to be a leader, he has been directing a lot of the recent conversation. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, just something to watch out for when considering everything.

Anyway, I don't think it's out of the ordinary to ask what people think of your analysis, as VE summed up nicely just above.

[Miss JJ]

My comments about your read on Cymru:

Cymru - I wasn't put off by his vote on bigAl because I was thinking the same thing when I saw bigAl's vote without a reason. He explained it later but I agreed with Cymru in that moment. The possible scumslip has been explained but I don't think we should just take his word that it wasn't a slip. That being said, not much more to do about it now except add it into my data when looking at Cymru's posts overall. I can't just assume what someone says is true in this game. I would rather assume everyone is scum unless it's proven otherwise. Also, his explanation for saying he didn't want to appear scummy. Again, could be true but we have only his word on that. All that being said, I would probably lean town if I am to believe his statements. He could easily be either newbtown or newbscum and I'm not nearly ready to call him town just yet.

I'll post my comments about your read on Al as well as my thoughts on you and others (who have any content worth commenting on) either tonight or tomorrow when I have time.

[VisceraEyes]

@Miss JJ
Yes, you're absolutely right. As the Host with the Most clarified for me SECONDS before you did, the roles/alignments are determined randomly, and I no longer consider his IC status as a reason I suspect him. The others, for now, still stand however, and I won't be removing my vote from him at this time.

Again, this isn't to say that I WON'T change my vote once a better candidate emerges...He's simply the MOST scummy to me with my VERY VERY VERY limited information to go on.

[Miss JJ]

To answer Workdawg's questions:

What is everyone's experience with mafia? How many games have you played? Here or elsewhere, online, IRL? etc.

I have finished 3 on this site and am in 3 ongoing. I have played about 7 mafia/werewolf themed games on another site. One ongoing werewolf game.

[cymru96]

@Miss JJ

If it wasnt a slip up:
a- why does it not make sense?
b- why would I post that?

[bigAl]

Quick note before work: I personally think that cymru's typo is pretty much irrelevant - it might push him 1 or 2% towards scum at most. It was a complicated sentence to begin with.

[Grimmjow]

Wow I have missed out on quite a bit in the past like 24 hours. I'll catch up in a bit, since I just woke up and haven't even had my first cup of coffee.

[Grimmjow]

Ok, wow, lot's to catch up on.

Second, it seemed obvious to me at the time why bigAl didn't give a reason and claimed his vote was not random.

Oh did you? I don't see anywhere that you gave any indication that was the case. I'm certainly not saying that you didn't, but you gave no idication that you did. Anyone could go back and say "Oh, I knew that reason" and there be no way to prove it. That's beside the point, but I'm just sayin'.

If you did NOT believe this was a typo you have absolutely no reason not to vote him AND put him at L-2 to at the very least turn the heat up on him and get more than a couple of sentences in response.

Ok, so perhaps I didn't state it well enough, but essentially what I was trying to say here is that even though I didn't believe that it wasn't a slip, I didn't have any more evidence to support a scum theory at the time. And as VE stated:

This post has been answered for by cymru96. He claims that it was a typo and that he hadn't meant to imply that he was actually trying to prove that he was scum. Fair enough. I can only assume that when he says he didn't mean to type it, he didn't mean to.

I'm not willing to say "I can only assume" this was the case, because, as I stated, I don't think this is the case, however there's nothing else to go on here and nothing left to say.

And, as far as that goes, I'm not willing to jump the gun and "assume" he's telling the truth, especially with such a blatant statement as "prove I'm scum." And with VE's assumption here, my "VE is town" has changed to null, and I'm going to keep watch on him.

because he got lynched in his last game trying to scumhunt, which would amply explain his paranoia of appearing too scummy.

I'm trying to show that I'm not mafia 'cause in the only other game I played I was just trying to find mafia and got lynched in less than an hour.

As far as I can see, he's not been in any other games on the site. Granted, yes, he may have been in games on another site, but as far as this one goes, he's not been in any other games. So I'm not necessarily willing to buy this one yet.

Lynch all liars. Isn't that the mantra? I'm not calling cy a liar, persay, but I don't have evidence that he's not lying.

With that being said:

@cy: can you link us to that game where you got "lynched in less than an hour"?

This post is getting long, so I'm going to break it up. I'll post more in a bit.

[Grimmjow]

Now I do find the back and forth between VE and JJ to be interesting (#105-110). I find it interesting that we have put so much emphasis on a "slip" by cy (granted, it was a blatant "I'm scum" slip) and yet we're not really questioning VE's MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever. JJ seems to be making sure to clarify everything he says about her, which is legitimate. VE calls JJ out in post #110 saying:

I find interesting is that page 5 is going to be almost exclusively dedicated to my reads-post, and the only comment you had on any of it was clarification on you, someone I only gave a limited, non-analyzed read on in that post. This can be viewed a couple of different ways...The most obvious is that you're scum and you don't want ANY suspicion cast on you, no matter how little or inconsequential. The other (and the one I'm more inclined to believe) is that your posts have been used in the past by scum out of context and you're overly concerned about being understood entirely.

However, she does go back and clarify:

Sorry I missed this earlier. I was just posting on a break during work so I didn't have much time... but I am concerned about your posts about

anyone

being clear. I just didn't see where you got your vote count.

This statement here puts me at a town read for JJ. Had she simply stated that she did want to make sure that posts about

her

were clear, then I'd have an issue here, but she stated that she was concerned about

anyone's

misrepresentation.

As far as that goes, VE's multiple oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever makes me even LESS inclined to believe him to be town.

Ok, next topic.

I haven't played a game here in a while (before quicktopic was officially introduced), so I don't know if mafia members can see (but not post in) the qt thread during the day, but I assume they can. Meaning that even if it wasn't a two way conversation, I would have had time to post some advice at least. If I were mafia that is.

This is true. The qt is available during the day phase to view. However, just because the IC/SE posts things in there and the noob sees it later does not necessarily mean that the IC/SE remembered/had time to post EVERYTHING. I admit this is breaching into the WIFOM territory (I think I'm using that right), but, as a friendly SE/my boyfriend once stated to me, WIFOM is scum's greatest weapon.

This statement did catch my attention, however:

True... but an experienced mafia is less likely to slip-up than a new mafia, which means that a player's experience does matter when considering how suspicious someone is. But yes, we shouldn't assume that there will be an experience player in the mafia group.

That rings more town IC than scum IC to me. If he were scum, he wouldn't want to be drawing attention to his IC-ness as a means of covering stuff up. So I'm willing to say he's a town read for now, but, again, I'm definitely keeping an eye on him simply because he's an IC. I'll be more suspicious, but I'll try to give it a fair go.

Post number 2, concluded. Post 3 will be up soon.

[Grimmjow]

So I've only got time for one more for now, so I just wanted to say one thing, because this bugged the shit outta me.

And then there's the game with me - sure, I was mafia but that alone is no reason to think I am in this game. To me some of these things seem either paranoid or contrived.

JJ thus far has been null for me as well, but I'm going to be even more critical of her because in my last game, she replaced in as scum and they ended up winning.

Ok, so here's the deal. WHERE DID I SAY I THOUGHT YOU WERE SCUM JUST BECAUSE OF OUR LAST GAME? Nowhere. Period. I didn't say that I thought you were scum. I just said that I was going to be more critical of you. And you wanna know why? It's called META, I'm sure you've heard of it. Hell, noob-me has heard of it. And, yes, I may not have a lot of meta on you, but I've got enough that I can pick out a couple of things, maybe. So, if you're so concerned with other people being misrepresented, why misrepresent me? But, like with VE, either and oversight, or blatant attempt to make someone else look scummy to take eyes off you. I'm just sayin'.

That's it for now. I'm going job hunting (yay...) and I've got to work tonight (HATE MY LIFE). So I'll likely not be able to post more until tomorrow. But we'll see.

[VisceraEyes]

@Grimmjow
I'd be interested to know what you think these multiple oversights/misinterpretations/mistakes/whatever that I've had are. Yeah, I misread the votes on you early game, but Miss JJ very kindly corrected me on that...beyond that, I can't think of anything I've been just WRONG about. What interests me is you reference these "inconsistencies", but what you quote is not even related to any kind of "oversight". We're not discussing it because there's nothing to discuss. I make a pretty pointed attempt to not say statements that aren't true.

@Everyone
The fact of the matter is this: there are approximately 4 super-active players in the game right now, myself, bigAl, Miss JJ, and Grimmjow. We could sit around and point fingers at each other all game, but we are collectively less than half the town. This is a situation that will make it VERY easy for Mafia to hide. I'm willing to sit here and answer questions and give reads on the same 3 people all day if that's what we decide to do. But the fact of the matter is that I'm lacking enough information to give logical reads on the rest of town. This shouldn't bother only me.

[cymru96]

just to throw this out there- I've been watching without saying anything.
I don't know what else to do without the inactive people sapeaking their mind.