Newbie #1118 (Game Over!)

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #5 (isolation #0) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:51 am

Post by silavor »

Hey, everybody! I'm your IC for today. If you have any questions, post them in the thread and I'll do my best to answer them.

Before we start, there's a few things that need to be said.
First, if you don't already have one, please get an avatar. It really helps us get to know who's who, and it helps us remember who said what.
Second, everyone should read and be familiar with this wiki article. The mafia wiki has a lot of really useful articles, but for a new player, learning the Mafiascum lingo is one of the most important first steps you can take.
Third, be active! Post your opinions, give us your thoughts. The more content generated the better, because it will give us more to analyze down the road.

Now that all the formalities are out of the way, time for a bit of RVS.

Vote: Scumhunter
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Post Post #19 (isolation #1) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:12 pm

Post by silavor »

1) I've played a handful of games here, but not a whole lot anywhere else
2) No, Lynch All Liars exists for a reason. I've found that, more often than not, whenever town players try to lie it ends badly. Although it's important to note the difference between someone harmlessly lying as a humorous joke (like, for example, saying I'm actually a sentient pear typing these posts through technopathy) and someone lying in a way that could seriously harm the town (like, for example, claiming to be a power role when you aren't).

A few other questions:

Why did you decide to give mafiascum a try?
How do you react to people attacking you?
What will you be known for in this game?
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Post Post #21 (isolation #2) » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:31 pm

Post by silavor »

WiganMike89 wrote:
2) I'm going to say 'no', it's hard to imagine many scenarios where lying from a VT would help rather than confuse. I suppose, under extraordinary circumstances, it could work- say, if you're about to get lynched and you claim to be a vigilante, in order to both get out of being lynched
and
protect the real vigilante from being nightkilled. But as a general rule, it's not a good idea.

The problem with that though is that if you fakeclaim vigilante, the real vigilante will counter-claim, and no matter who ultimately gets lynched the scum'll still end up gaining the upper hand. Fakeclaiming really never helps the town.
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Post Post #33 (isolation #3) » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:14 am

Post by silavor »

Ankamius wrote:
Getting lynched Day 1.

Why are you expecting to get lynched day 1?
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Post Post #45 (isolation #4) » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:31 pm

Post by silavor »

sanchocolates wrote:I can't help get the feeling that Devestation is trying to defend Wigan.

What makes you think that?
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Post Post #51 (isolation #5) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:40 am

Post by silavor »

Devestation, how come you never gave a random vote at the start of the day?
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Post Post #55 (isolation #6) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:54 am

Post by silavor »

I meant start of the game day, not start of the first real-life day. Post 26 is still pretty early. Nothing of any real value had happened before that, and it was very clearly still RVS.

And that doesn't really answer the question, Dev. Why would you choose to not vote?
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Post Post #64 (isolation #7) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:41 am

Post by silavor »

Arcee wrote:
2. It's a bit ironic, isn't it, the amount of times you said "the town" in this quote.
Almost as if you are not one of us.


Nice catch. I'm not sure what you mean by him leaving himself "wiggle room," but the rest of your case makes a lot of sense.

Vote:WiganMike


I'm also not liking Lollybear's latest post. The last sentence feels like she's trying to backpedal out of committing to her vote, which is a really scummy thing to do.

Sanchocolates, is there something in particular that makes you think Wigan is newbtown?
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Post Post #68 (isolation #8) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:58 am

Post by silavor »

I repeated the question because I wanted to emphasize that it needed to be answered, and that more than just one person cared about his response.
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Post Post #85 (isolation #9) » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:29 pm

Post by silavor »

Arcee wrote:-_-

Vote for WiganMike89 anyway.

Not a fan of this comment, Arcee. If anyone else votes Mike he'll be at L-1; that's one vote away from being lynched. On principle I don't like having someone at L-1 this early, because then someone who isn't really reading the thread very carefully could go "m'kay, vote: Whoever's being bandwagoned" and accidentally hammer (placing the final vote, which seals the lynch), ending the day short. As a general rule of thumb, I don't like having anyone lynched day one until every player has had a chance to give their thoughts about the day thus far. That way, even if you end up with a mislynch, you still have connections drawn between all the players, and that information is invaluable later on down the road. As it stands, I'd really like to hear more from scumhunter, lollybear and hiplop, since they really haven't said much of anything yet.

What makes me
really
cringe, though, is that you wanted to push Mike to L-1 with a vote by someone who doesn't really want to lynch Mike in the first place, which to me is even worse.
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Post Post #89 (isolation #10) » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:16 am

Post by silavor »

Arcee, the thing is, I
don't
see Mike as confirmed scum. He had a post or two that were kinda scummy, but he also has posts that show a town mindset. Is he worth keeping an eye on? Yes. Is he worth pressuring to get a better read? Sure. Is he worth lynching right now this very instant? No. To be honest, I don't get how you can see
anyone
as confirmed scum this early in a game.

And for the record, I never said we should stall so Mike can "talk his way out of a lynch." I said we should give the people who haven't had a chance to speak yet a chance to speak. There's a big difference. As for putting mike at L-2, there's no way a single player can accidentally lynch someone at L-2. Accidental lynches can and do happen at L-1, however, so as a general rule I don't like anyone being pushed to L-1 unless there's a serious, convincing case to back it up.

You're wrong about there being no pro-town motivation for stretching out day 1, by the way. Maybe not to 20 pages, but to something longer than
four
. In most of the games I've played, we only managed to catch the last scum because of something seemingly trivial that happened during day one. More information is always good, even if you don't like it. The fact of the matter is, short days hinder towns in the long run, because it cuts conversations short, lessens the amount of information we have to work with, and prevents the formation of strong pro-town alliances.
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Post Post #154 (isolation #11) » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:39 am

Post by silavor »

unvote

Sorry, I've been rather sick the last two days, and every time I'd try to get online to tackle the walls being thrown up here, two more pages would appear, and I'd get even more backlogged.

I'm better now, though, so time for some serious catch-up.
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Post Post #165 (isolation #12) » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:47 am

Post by silavor »

Scum reads on Lollybear and Trevor. Lollybear seems excessively timid and shy with her reads, even for a newbie. For example, here:
lollybear wrote:My biggetst scum read is Ankamius but that doesn't mean he's scum. we still have a long way to go before the deadline so its hard to tell.

Notice how she leaves herself an easy way to back out of her read. "My biggetst scum read is Ankamius but that doesn't mean he's scum" implies that, if an Ankamius wagon doesn't take off, she can basically pretend this scum read never happened and move on to the next bandwagon of the day.

I had a town read on Devastation, but then Trevor replaces in and votes Ankamius for tunneling, despite Arcee tunneling a lot harder just a page earlier. I also get really bad vibes off of this post:

Trevor wrote:See, this is the problem Ankamius. Since this is Day 1, no one will have any real evidence against anyone else. Reactions can be deceiving as most newer players have worse reactions, regardless of alignment. You like to question everybody's suspicions to you being scum. I have no evidence other than you tunneling on Lollybear, who could be scum. You obviously do not want to be lynched and your defense is very strong.
unvote:
for now. You are trying to towntell as hard as possible, and you've convinced me for the time being.

Not only does he sloppily back out of his read, but he also compliments Ankamius, using what's called Appeal to Emotion (AtE) to try and subtly get on to Ankamius' good side.
Also of note is that he quietly throws in that Lollybear could be scum, as if to say that if a Lollybear wagon started up, he would be willing to jump on.

Vote:Trevor
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Post Post #190 (isolation #13) » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:26 pm

Post by silavor »

hiplop wrote:
i rarely take my vote off of people if the wagon dies

How is this relevant in the slightest? When did I ever have a wagon on me to begin with, let alone one that died?

And how did you manage to completely miss me posting a cast on Lolly and Trevor?
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Post Post #216 (isolation #14) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:51 pm

Post by silavor »

Scumhunter wrote:
Silavor, who do you think is scum at the moment?

The same people as before, Trevor and Lollybear. Hiplop also has had a few moments that make me think he could be scum, but that read's not nearly as strong.

Scumhunter, was your vote on Ankamius purely because you got scummy vibes off of a single post? Or was there another reason I'm not seeing?
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Post Post #258 (isolation #15) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:36 am

Post by silavor »

Zachrulez wrote:
forest_air wrote:
And yay for OMGUS votes.


attempting to discredit a legitimate reason as OMGUS. Awesome.

You didn't give a legitimate reason, though. You just said "Awesome," and voted Forest. Forest never said we should lynch Lolly because of her replacing, she said we should lynch lolly anyway because she was scummy
despite
her replacing out.

So not only is your first vote pure OMGUS, the explanation you tacked on to it afterwards is a misrep.
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Post Post #267 (isolation #16) » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:30 am

Post by silavor »

Zachrulez wrote:If she's getting replaced too, there must be a reason.

Tell me how that isn't trying to pad a case on a weak bandwagon.

When was anyone trying to pad a case by saying lolly was scum for replacing out?
Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying?
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Post Post #338 (isolation #17) » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:36 am

Post by silavor »

hiplop wrote:We should NEVER "decide" who to lynch.

That's not necessarily true. If we're a day away from deadline, I'd rather compromise to secure a lynch on someone who at least has a chance of being scum than let the day end with a no-lynch.

And all these replacements have me confusing who is who. :(
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Post Post #377 (isolation #18) » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:57 am

Post by silavor »

Tazaro, what are you talking about?
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Post Post #435 (isolation #19) » Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:39 pm

Post by silavor »

Oh ugh. And then there were three.
Also, scumhunter, Arcee suspected Mike and to an extent myself at the beginning of the game for rather minor, trivial reasons. How exactly is that relevant right now in the slightest?

Vote: Hiplop

I did a reread during the night, and realized that hiplop is really quite scummy. For one thing, he feels the need to justify having a town read on Arcee, despite no one really finding him scummy in the first place, aside from Mike. Then he theorizes that arcee cracked under pressure (again, what pressure?) but then states Arcee's town "despite the wagon/bunch of pursuers." So what was it, Hiplop? Was Arcee scum cracking under the all-mighty pressure of Mike Wigan, scum hunter extraordinaire, or was Arcee town being bandwagoned and bullied by... all of Mike. Why were you trying so hard to push your opinion away from Mike's?

Then, rather than do any real scumhunting, hiplop focuses entirely on me because I'm not here. Protip: lurkerhunting is what scum do day 1 to look productive
without actually doing anything productive.
If someone's not here, they'll either come back or get replaced out. Focusing entirely on them isn't going to change that, or make it happen faster. What it does do is make you look active and scumhunting without actually commenting on anything that's happening.

Oh, and what's this? You know what it is? Evidence that Hiplop is making this up as he goes. Suddenly one person having suspicion on you doesn't mean anything? So then what was all the whiteknighting of Arcee about? Were you just trying to look town by having a townread on someone basically everyone else thought was town, too? Moreover, he justifies his two main reads as simply "they lurk too much." Apparently he also suspected San, but that read seemed to come and go out of the blue, without any real justification.

This I don't understand. Hiplop's number one suspect is Zach, who is being town but replaced Lolly, and Hiplop's only case on Lolly was that Lolly was lurking. Moreover, he even said earlier on that he thought Lolly was probably just newbtown. And yet despite having a very poor opinion on Taz, Hip decides that Taz and all his legitimate scumminess is second only to... what? Lolly's lurking? Hiplop is not scumhunting here, he's keeping options open. He's never really made a case on Zach or Lolly, yet kept them as his number one suspect because they had a lot of suspicion on them. The most he says on the subject is that " Lollybear left a sour taste in my mouth which Zach hasnt fully diminished," and that "i would be perfectly fine with a ta vote, but i still like where my vote is atm." This reeks of scum trying to keep their options open through vague statements of general scumminess.

But then he drops all of this to vote Forest? This is sheepy scummy bandwagoning at its finest, folks. It also completely contradicts what Hiplop said earlier about not changing his vote unless he's sure the bandwagon's gone. The lolly/zach suspicions might have lowered, but Taz was still very much in the hotseat, so why the sudden switch to Forest instead? Was it because you knew Taz would flip town, and you didn't want to be associated with the Taz wagon through vote-count-analysis? Hiplop was steadily pushing for a Taz lynch for most of the day without ever actually voting for him, then says he was "upset, not concerned" that Taz was lynched. The whole scenario is scummy, but the last comment, "upset, not concerned," just doesn't sit well with me. It's like he's trying to express that Taz's lynch is a bad thing, but secretly is kinda glad because he knows Taz'll flip town.

Basically, Hiplop's scum because of lurkerhunting and talking mechanics instead of scumhunting, overly defending townies/attacking lurkers to make sure people know he's being active without actually doing anything, keeping his options open by keeping his vote on lolly/zach for no real reason while vocally pushing for a Taz lynch, then abandoning all that to mindlessly sheep onto a fast-growing wagon. Not to mention the fact that he contradicts himself a few times, going against what he claimed was his own personal moral structure. This is not town, this is scum siding with whatever voice happens to be the strongest at the moment.
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Post Post #462 (isolation #20) » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:45 pm

Post by silavor »

Not countering
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Post Post #463 (isolation #21) » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:47 pm

Post by silavor »

Hiplop and Zach are my largest suspects at the moment, although pending a lack of counter-claims that'll probably change.
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Post Post #473 (isolation #22) » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:45 pm

Post by silavor »

Zach, how exactly do I give you a bad feeling? And what makes you feel Hiplop is town while Quilford is scum? To me neither of them have been all that town, so why are your views so polarized between them?

Tick, has Yank done anything to make you suspect him, or are your suspicions based entirely on Arcee's actions?
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Post Post #484 (isolation #23) » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:04 pm

Post by silavor »

If Hiplop flips scum, Quilford would probably be his partner. Hiplop pretty much never mentions that slot, but then out of the blue snapped onto Forest's wagon while avoiding Tazaro's at the end of yesterday. It kinda looks like a bad bus attempt to me.

If he's town? Honestly, I don't know. Obviously Quilford can't be scum all on his own, and the thought that Zach's claim was faked had crossed my mind, as well. I mean, if Zach and San were the scumteam, Zach pretty much just cleared the two of them for the rest of the game. However, I had a townread on San, and the Tick hasn't done anything to change that read. Maybe Zach and Quilford? Scum obviously know who's town and who's scum, so fakeclaiming cop with a real innocent claim on a person who's close to being lynched would be really easy for scum to do to gain massive town points. I don't know, basically if Hiplop flips town I'll have to critically re-examine every read I've had this game, including whether a cop claim makes sense given Lolly and Zach's past actions.
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Post Post #489 (isolation #24) » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:36 pm

Post by silavor »

Yeah, I've had a town read on Yank basically ever since he replaced in, SH. Why do you feel he could be scum?
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Post Post #491 (isolation #25) » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:45 pm

Post by silavor »

Why do you think Hiplop is newbtown? He's been on the site for a few months, and he's been in more games than I have.
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Post Post #522 (isolation #26) » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:26 am

Post by silavor »

Scumhunter, if your scummate is going down, and there's a cop claim with an inno, scum are going to bus like there's no tomorrow because sooner rather than later process of elimination is gonna catch them, and scum's gonna need all the townpoints they can get to help them get to lylo.

The fact that you seem
so adamant
that there definitely is no bussing going on right now has me more than a bit worried.
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Post Post #523 (isolation #27) » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:30 am

Post by silavor »

You also haven't explained why you believed hiplop to be newbtown when he's very clearly not.
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Post Post #616 (isolation #28) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 am

Post by silavor »

Well I finally have some time to get around to answering people's questions, but it looks like I've been replaced already. :(
In hindsight, I probably should've V/LA'ed, but I didn't think I'd be this busy for so long. Best of luck to everyone!
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Post Post #884 (isolation #29) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:49 pm

Post by silavor »

Muffin and Quil could've had this one, if they had solidly pushed a scumhunter mislynch, but then they both went quiet.

And while no one picked up on it, the fact that muffin was gunning for a zach mislynch on the grounds that he fakeclaimed cop, then switched to a scumhunter mislynch not because anything changed his mind, but because the zach wagon wasn't getting support, is a super scummy thing to do.

Scumhunter, while it may seem like a minor thing, your consistently high activity rate really did help solidify your town image, especially in the later days when everyone else entered lurkerville.

Overall, congrats to the town. I know all the replacements made this one more difficult than usual, but in the end you all pulled through.

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