Battle for Olympus - Game Over!

[ooba]

Situational Distancing

BS wagon was down to 2 votes. diddin was at 6 votes with 11 to lynch. A diddin lynch was not confirmed as you make it out to be. In fact, it's the same goddamn thing I told you on D1 when you said it's possible Iece or AV were distancing each other ..

With BabySpice and diddin as strong wagons already established there is little chance AV or Iec are going to be lynched today.

That's reality.

So now is the perfect time to do a little safe distancing with cross-votes such as those if they are indeed scum. Throwing out the possibility of having them be partners isn't logical.

With the mod message, the BS wagon was derailing .. And it's not that close to deadline that people would go "we really don't have the time, let's lynch ddiddn" .. With the slight anti-Iece current that was stirring up, it's a risky move ..

Flip on Dekes D2 was because I believed he was a neighbourizer.

White knighting

Calling people townie without any reasoning is suspicious. But I cleared BS because of the earlier logic I said. And look at the diddin wagon at that time - "Dekes, Snow_Bunny, Gemini, Chronopie, chesskid3, AGar" - Dekes, SB were pushing it (who were my top scum reads) - so he fell into the town category.

I made that post before Gemini even made that hers. The reasoning behind it was simple. You keep bringing up the possibility of me-scum so I needed to clarify this nonsense once and for all.
- I don't want the town block(s) wasted on me when it is better used on somebody else
- People are more willing to listen to people they have a town read on. The sooner I get rid of this ooba-paranoia which everyone suffers from, the better - cause I've been right in nearly every call so far .. For example, if there's wasn't an air of suspicion about me yesterday - people wouldn't have made Gandalf-me scum team calls and would have actually listened to what I had to say - that LC was a better lynch ..
Also, more importantly, the chess lynch which you're pushing is a bad lynch when compared to LC (Reasoning in a separate post). LC is egyptian - I just can't figure out whether you're misguided town or scum with LC (because you make a good point on the power levels of town - Redirector+JK+Roleblocker+Doc) ..

[Gemini]

Keeping us alive when you can control our night actions (by blocking us; or directing our kill as a vig; or having us neighborize Quadz, a proven goddess; or verifying that Chess is a goddess) wouldn't be the worst thing for town right now. You know who we are, and you know what we do, so we're no longer a threat. Killing us when there is still an unknown number of scum in play will, for one thing, lower that vote threshold, again making MoI's hated townie status a threat.

Anyway, we can't win as of the dawn of this morning anyway (not because we got caught, but last night was sort of a MYLO for us; even if we had killed successfully, the death of Chrono pretty much ended any already veerrrry slim chance we had of getting to an all-female endgame), but we can try to help town win (for Demeter's sake!).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Keeping us alive when you can control our night actions (by blocking us; or directing our kill as a vig; or having us neighborize Quadz, a proven goddess; or verifying that Chess is a goddess) wouldn't be the worst thing for town right now. You know who we are, and you know what we do, so we're no longer a threat. Killing us when there is still an unknown number of scum in play will, for one thing, lower that vote threshold, again making MoI's hated townie status a threat.

Anyway, we can't win as of the dawn of this morning anyway (not because we got caught, but last night was sort of a MYLO for us; even if we had killed successfully, the death of Chrono pretty much ended any already veerrrry slim chance we had of getting to an all-female endgame), but we can try to help town win (for Demeter's sake!).

1. Appealing to fear noted (there's an unknown number of evil, evil scum out there!) Based on your claim the likelyhood is there is likely 2 more Mafia scum floating around.
2. Asking to be directed - that's a farce. Either Town wastes a block of some sort making sure you don't betray us (which I have no reason to think you will not do) or we trust you to not try to screw over Town. Neither option is very palatable when we can just hang you, premanently remove your kill, and free up any Town blocks to prevent the lone remaining scum kill.

Its a good attempt Gemini, but in the end futile. Town's don't generally win games by letting outed Serial Killers run free and clear.

[Nachomamma8]

Don't have time, so this will be short.

Gemini:
I am a guy. You cut dicks off. There's not a case in the world that can convince me to let you live.

Vote: Gemini

[chesskid3]

AGM claimed doc?

[MagnaofIllusion]

AGM claimed doc?

I'd say don't act stupid ... but you know ...

[ooba]

On Magna

Power use doesn't make sense

- First off, keeping items to yourself instead of giving them away is sub-optimal. It is like me granting myself abilities with my Hoopla role in MetaMafia. If you use it on yourself, you're limiting the full usefulness of the role ..
- You've kept the items to yourself on N1 and N3. Why not give yourself the "Shiny Stick" on N2? After all you would KNOW you're town as opposed to Iece who was "more or less confirmed town". If it is about someone surviving the night, the townie who was most definitely surviving any night was you with the hated townie claim.
- Regarding me protecting Iece N2 you said "Don’t like this at all. Had AGM gone all Pants on Head and chosen not to protect him for WIFOM he eats rope the next day.". Why doesn't the same logic apply to Iece on N3? "I kept it because I wasn’t sure Iec would survive the Night"..

LC lynch aversion

Here's something I've spotted - every single time the subject of an LC lynch is approached, you keep bringing chesskid up + you also claim you're suspicious of me ..
i)
#2266: I spot the message in the OP and immediately refocus my scumhunting on egyptian+SK assumption
#2269: I ask everyone to vote LC and post a case on him
#2283: Iece supports the LC wagon
#2296: You respond commenting on the fact that I make an assumption of 4 scum instead of saying why gandalf is a better lynch than LC
#2335: You bring up the chess-SD one of them must have blocked Chrono case
ii)
#2559: I say the way forward after Gemini is lynching LC
#2560: SD agrees
#2565: You make a post saying who can be egyptian predominantly focusing on chess + me

Also

Well there we have it. Axel is confirmed Town. This claim means that either LC or Gandalf are lying. I absolutely don’t buy for a second that Town has two separate Execute abilities.

You still believe town cannot have two execute abilities? So while LC's ability to talk to Axel is confirmed, he could have been lying about the powers of Axel to make Gandalf look bad .. You never comment on this today after Gandalf flips town

Other stuff

- Where the hell did that "Mafia hit SK bulletproof" comment come from? N2, the egyptian kill failed. Going by claims, the kill was directed either at SD (who AGM protected) or me (who SD protected). Combined with the fact that you didn't think Gemini was SK even after SD's counterclaim, I guess your N2 kill was on me and you thought I was the SK ..

If a LC egyptian lynch doesn't seal the game, then I'm pretty sure where I am looking for egyptian no.5 .. Also think it is relevant to post my egyptian analysis once again ..(earlier had written you off but the links with LC ping my scumdar)

So I'll run you through my egyptian analysis now ..

Players: Iecerint,

Chronopie

, AGM, LordChronos,

Gandalf

, AGar, ShadowDancer, MoI, Chesskid, Gemini
- Iecerint, Gemini are not egyptian because they both gave us one egyptian each
- The Lynch 2 votes have the potential to tell us most about the possible egyptians. The basic psychology being with AV already busted, scum will really try not to lose another team mate here in L2. They will only pile on when it looks inevitable that a scum buddy has to claim.

Quadz (3)– ooba, Dekes, Gemini
LordChronos (1) - Chesskid
AGM (1) – MoI

Dekes (2)– AGar, ShadowDancer

Chesskid (1) - Gandalf
ooba (1) - Mothrax
Not voting (6) – Iecerint, Chronopie, AGM, Axelrod, Quadz, LordChronos

Agar, SD are voting Dekes. Definitely not egyptian.

Mothrax (4) – ooba, AGar, Dekes, Iecerint
Axelrod (5) - MoI, Gandalf, ShadowDancer, Gemini, LC
LC (1) - Chesskid,
AGar (1) - AGM
Iecerint (1) - AV
Not voting (3) – Axelrod, Chronopie, Mothrax

Now this is an informative snapshot. I've already mentioned this before but I expect at least one egyptian on the Axel wagon. Now AGM and chess wouldn't have wasted their votes if they were egyptians since piling in on Axel would have been better than random votes. Chess, AGM are not egyptians.

Which leaves:

Chronopie (Not voting)

, LordChronos,

Gandalf

, MoI

[Nachomamma8]

Also I think I might be able to rule out LC scum.
Or confirm LC scum.

Back after these commercial messages.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also I think I might be able to rule out LC scum.
Or confirm LC scum.

Please elaborate soon!

--

- First off, keeping items to yourself instead of giving them away is sub-optimal. It is like me granting myself abilities with my Hoopla role in MetaMafia. If you use it on yourself, you're limiting the full usefulness of the role ..

I’m making my best judgements about how to use my role. Don’t like it? Sorry. I note you don’t say it is scummy, just suboptimal.

- You've kept the items to yourself on N1 and N3. Why not give yourself the "Shiny Stick" on N2? After all you would KNOW you're town as opposed to Iece who was "more or less confirmed town". If it is about someone surviving the night, the townie who was most definitely surviving any night was you with the hated townie claim.

Sigh. Iec became my Top Town read Day 2. Giving him what I sussed out was as killing ability (which I was right about) was a clear upgrade over his ‘Sanity Unknown’ normal ability.

So you are dinging me for handing off my Invention N2 while simultaneously attacking me for ‘playing suboptimal’ N1 and N3?

And are you questioning my read on Iec? I want to be clear where you are going with this.

Here's something I've spotted - every single time the subject of an LC lynch is approached, you keep bringing chesskid up + you also claim you're suspicious of me ..

I like how you ignore my post where I say the last Egyptians are in Chess,

LC

, and yourself. Nice blinders.

With Gandalf’s flip I’m more than happy to hang LC. Oh wait, that’s not happening today anyway since Gemini is getting the rope. And the Chesskid information needs to be put out there since everyone seems to be ignoring the possibility he is scum.

- Where the hell did that "Mafia hit SK bulletproof" comment come from? N2, the egyptian kill failed. Going by claims, the kill was directed either at SD (who AGM protected) or me (who SD protected).

Combined with the fact that you didn't think Gemini was SK even after SD's counterclaim, I guess your N2 kill was on me and you thought I was the SK ..

The bolded – UM WHAT? Where the fuck are you getting that bullshit I’ll direct you to my post re Gemini again –

Gemini’s claim to being a lyncher doesn’t hold much water. The terribly bad “I targeted the Treestump” doesn’t make sense coming from a Serial Killer who missed their target after being jailed by Shadow, but also doesn’t make sense as coming from Town. Once we get more of today I think eliminating the likely Serial Killer (based on Shadow’s claim) is the right move.

To make this easy for you –

1. I didn’t believe Gemini’s claim of lyncher when I first read it.
2. Their N3 claim didn’t make sense from any perspective.
3. Most importantly KILLING THE SERIAL KILLER BASED ON SHADOW’S CLAIM IS THE BEST MOVE. Inherent in this assumption is that I believe Gemini is the Serial Killer since Shadow blocker her.

As for the rest of your post – are you referring to my phone post BEFORE N3 while on V/LA in regards to the “Mafia kill hit SK”? If so it was something that struck me while doing some phone based reading.

I don’t know what paranoia you are going on about in regards to me thinking you were the Serial Killer.

If a LC egyptian lynch doesn't seal the game, then I'm pretty sure where I am looking for egyptian no.5 .. Also think it is relevant to post my egyptian analysis once again ..(earlier had written you off but the links with LC ping my scumdar)

There is no way in hell that lynching LC as Egyptian would end the game. Town has too much power for the anti-Town factions to consist of 4 Mafia and 1 Serial Killer.

So tell me – do you think we have more than 1 3rd Party floating around?

[Gemini]

Yeah, Andy keeps telling us not to castrate him in the QT, but it was his idea in the first place!! Guys reaaaally don't like being castrated, even metaphorically. Geez. They're imaginary in this case!

I guess you

can't

really trust us. However, if you gave us directions for the night, we would be lynched for deviations, so we would pretty much have to follow orders. And since we know the one confirmed goddess still in game is town, we're on her side. (Go Quadz, go!)

Some set-up speculation of our own:

We figure there are an even number of gods to goddesses.

Chess claimed a goddess. (And Aphrodite makes sense as a version of the prostitute/roleblocker role.) Also, Isis/Mothrax was apparently the scum version of that as well as Nacho nabbed his roleblock/Seduction; his official title was Egyptian Goddess of Magic and Womanhood. (Ours is Women and Marriage.)

Has Chess full-claimed all his titles?

It doesn't seem likely that the prostitute role is repeated, so if Chess is scum who actually claimed Moth's powers to be his own, then someone else probably lying about their gender as well, but based on claims we don't see that as likely. (I hope this makes sense?) No one but us seemed to be aware of the necessary gender issues in the game; Axel via LC noted that the fakeclaims were matching genders, however. Gandalf was the one possible exception to this as Eris had no female counterparts in other mythologies, but he actually WAS Eris.

The only other discrepancy we have found with genders/claims is AGM's "sorority of health"; since sorority normally refers to a sisterhood, it made us question his claimed gender (and that's a nitpicky stretch, and we tried to fish for it a bit yesterday). However, it's unlikely the scum had two protective roles (unless there really are two teams, one of which has been supremely terrible at NKs, but I did actually play in a mini where the scum forgot to send in kills two or maybe three nights in a row, so I know it can happen--and that same mini actually had two town JKs, too) so that combined with Iece's investigation pretty much cleared him for us.

Gender Claims (to sort of show a visual of what I was saying about Chess)

Hera

-

Zeus

Demeter

-Poseidon

Persephone

-Hades

Artemis

-

Ra (Apollo)

Aphrodite-Hephaestus

Iris

-Hermes

Eris

-Dionysus

Bastet (Athena)

-Asclepius

Isis (Hestia)

-Thanatos

Hebe

-

Ares

Pairs are loosely based on claim similarities when applicable (and mythos when not). Confirmed in colors. Chess is the only unconfirmed female; if he's lying about his gender, so is someone else.


@Ooba: This was one of the things that pinged our scumdar yesterday though obviously we couldn't discuss it. There has been lots of talk in our QT about that.

- Where the hell did that "Mafia hit SK bulletproof" comment come from?

However, you did turn yesterday's discussion into an SK hunt rather than a scum hunt, almost single-handedly. Again, it was something we noticed but was not something we were able to discuss with the pressure on us at the time, and diverting the hunt like that has likely Egyptian-motivation.

I also think Hermes or Thanatos could be a fakeclaim for Thoth, as in mythology, Thoth was often thought to be one and the same with Hermes, but based on his ability claim, shares the scribe ability with LC's Thanatos. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/thoth.html


-mjaye

[Gemini]

In fact: Thoth: "Thoth was also present at the judgement of the dead. He would question the deceased before recording the result of the weighing of the deceased's heart. If the result was favorable Thoth would declare the deceased as a righteous individual who was worthy of a blessed afterlife."

[ooba]

I call it suboptimal because I've seen this done as town before (in Time Travel Mafia).
See there's a clear disconnect between what you're doing.
- If we go by your logic on N1, which is trusting yourself more than others - you should have given yourself the kill.
- If we go by your logic for N2, which is trusting Iece, you should have given the forged Medusa's head to Iece on N3. (Looks like you didn't respond to that part of the post)

That's not the point - you list LC in the list of Egyptians sure - but your points are made against chess and me. So I ask you - are you fine with lynching LC over Chess (barring other info in between)?

Yes. "Mafia kill hit SK" was with regard to N2 - why exactly did you get this idea when he had so many protective roles?

"Do you think we have more than 1 3rd Party floating around?"
Yes we already have two claimed 3rd Parties in thread. Nacho is semi-town with an internal agenda and Gemini is Kronos SK.

P-edit: @Gemini Me switching gears from two scum teams to one+SK is true, but I never focused on SK hunting over Egyptian hunting ..

[mockingjaye]

No, we're Hera. Not Kronos. We only kill males, hence the castration flavor. Females can't be castrated, so a universal SK wouldn't have a gender-specific kill flavor. If we target females, they become our neighbors. This can be verified by leaving us alive and allowing us to neighborize Quadz tonight. He could be given a Doc protect, or MoI's protect, or hey, even yours, right? That wouldn't affect our ability to neighborize him, and he could confirm it in the morning.

[Iecerint]

It looks like the only remaining claimed female is CK, AND she's spec'd so Gemini could convince herself to kill CKher, too. Mmm.

Good set-up spec from Gemini re: fakeclaim matching. Reading through wiki, I think Bastet actually might match up plausibly with Athena. Bastet was apparently a protector goddess to the pharaohs originally. Though this isn't what she flipped. So it isn't necessarily the case that non-matching is occurring.

Killing the SK isn't a bad move, but other courses of action are probably manageable, especially given that the remaining scum is a dude assuming scum sex balance (which, I guess it's possible that Gemini is intended to lean more anti-town rather than totally neutral).

P-Edit: Ooba, MoI said he was concerned I would be killed last night. You can fairly dispute whether that was a reasonable basis by which to keep the item, but it's not true that he didn't say why he chose to keep it.

Also, he's already declared that he can also distribute items after they have been produced, so he's claimed himself into a corner re: hogging the items.

[Gemini]

Oops.

No, we're Hera. Not Kronos. We only kill males, hence the castration flavor. Females can't be castrated, so a universal SK wouldn't have a gender-specific kill flavor. If we target females, they become our neighbors. This can be verified by leaving us alive and allowing us to neighborize Quadz tonight. He could be given a Doc protect, or MoI's protect, or hey, even yours, right? That wouldn't affect our ability to neighborize him, and he could confirm it in the morning.

[Iecerint]

Oh neat!

I guess they win with you after that?

I wish I had your role...

[ooba]

@MJ, Kronos also fits the kill-flavor .. "Cronus was usually depicted with a sickle or scythe, which was also the weapon he used to castrate and depose Uranus, his father.".. I like your Hera role (fakeclaim or not) - also ties in with the alternate wincon condition I was thinking about so nice .. But there's nothing that you can do to convince me to not lynch you today .. No real trade off for the risk .. I will however be nice and respond to that spec you've posted .. Gimme a few minutes ..

[Gemini]

I don't think anyone's alignment changes if we neighborize them. They would still win with town. We would have left the game if we had managed to outlive all males and only females remained.

It is a cool role. I think we got it because of my answer to the question about Chuck Norris and Batman. (It involved the words "sexist" and "Wonder Woman.") I just wish five goddesses hadn't died by the end of D2.

Ooba, I understand your Kronos speculation up to the point where we claimed. However, persisting in it after that is kind of moot. We were caught in a lie and we cannot win based on sheer numbers, so we have no reason to fake claim anything today.

There ARE good and valid reasons we should not be lynched. After all, better the devil you know...

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself. ~Sun Tzu

[LordChronos]

Axel has just refused once again to tell me his last one shot. He's having a hard time staying motivated, despite his pseudovoice.

Just had a thought about Nacho's claimed action last night. Need to check something.

[LordChronos]

@Nacho

Can you target players from either group of dead people with your graverob?

[ooba]

Question - did anyone think that the claims of Avox and mothrax were particularly bad claims?
Hestia: Hearth for a roleblock was particular bad and Athena: Battle Armor sounds more like Bulletproof than protection
- I mean compare it to Dekes - Apollo fit perfectly with Ra abilities ..
- Of the people left, every single person's abilities fit perfectly with Rolename .. That is, there are at least one or two more Egyptian scum in our group but they seem to have perfect fits of name to abilities..

My theory (of course, this doesn't fit in with MoI\LC but w\e) is that there was a swapping of fakeclaims .. After all AV claimed after Iece declared his results & scum had daytalk to manage this process ..

Aphrodite seems to fit perfectly with "Isis, Egyptian Goddess of Magic and Womanhood"
- esp. with Nacho claiming Isis's normal was called "Seduce"
- My theories of mothrax's super being a permanent RB seem to fit with Magic. More importantly chess brought up the perma RB for the first time in thread.

Asclepius seems to fit perfectly with "Bastet, Egyptian Goddess of Protection and Cats"
- Protection as the normal
- Also super of stopping three kills seems a lot like a Cat having many lives .

Which means that they (AGM\chess) have the scum roles\abilities corresponding to Athena\Hestia .. However I can't see Anubis fitting with either of these and is a much better match to LC's claimed role\ability ..

My thoughts since you said if Chess had to be lying - somebody else had to be lying too .. However this invalidates the fakeclaims match actual gender theory - which was however based on the actual scum claims so .. (Also I think Hera role implies a setup where scum genders are mismatched - otherwise what really is the point of your normal - you could just kill people off on gender of their claims)

[Iecerint]

Is true. The claimed normal makes no sense with the revised wincon. I think that applies regardless of whether there's balance, though.

[ooba]

Just thought about a point against that theory of mine .. At least the chess part .. He countered SD on D1 saying SD was a scum version of his role .. So if they did decide on this gambit, it was done D1 itself ..

"I think that applies regardless of whether there's balance, though." -> Don't understand this ..

[Iecerint]

If your wincon is to kill all the men, and Zeus is just another man, a normal ability that lets you find Zeus is near-useless to you regardless of whether there are 3 women scum or 3 men scum.

[ooba]

If your wincon is to kill all the men, and Zeus is just another man, a normal ability that lets you find Zeus is near-useless to you regardless of whether there are 3 women scum or 3 men scum.

No she claimed her normal was to neighbourize females who she targets & castrate men ..