Mini 1180: Game Over

[TheWayItEnds]

• His excuse revolving around lack of setup understanding while not showing any initiative to look into it (ie. Wiki, Past games)

• Misrepresentation #1 - Him stating that we were yelling for a quicklynch to remove him when we asked him to provide more content intially.

• Contradiction #1 - Him stating he had strong-town reads in past games while also saying he doesn't want town-reads and doesn't believe town-tells exist.

• Contradiction #2 - Him stating that the reason for not voting us is that he doesn't want us to yell OMGUS (ie. He cares about his image) while also saying he doesn't care if his vote on Alex is bad (ie. He doesn't care about his image)

[/quote]
This should be fun.
I read a normal. It involved 2 scum, a townie who was really scum as far as endgame when. 1-shot PR's and fakeclaiming out the ass.
The Vig claim sorta makes me believe that this game is not like that one.

MR1.... You posted a meta case and called for votes because I wasn't "acting town enough". That's calling for a lynch as far as I see it.

C1... You must be fu.... you know what... you're not.
You asked me to post a list of everyone so that I could narrow down to who the scum is. I refused.
I said that I would not be providing a list because I don't care who town is, because the entirety of the scum game is to look town. "Put out towntells" Therefore, I feel that that sort of list is not going to help.
And since I've already fucking explained this and you... what? forgot? Ignored it?
When I find town... you'll be the fucking last to know. Because I won't fucking tell you. Because I'm not going to point out all the "towntells" and go look how fucking town this person is. That doesn't help me find scum.

C2. You must be fucking kidding me.

[wierdalexv]

/Sheeping contradictions FTW.

UNVOTE: , VOTE: TheWayItEnds

Vig-Vote: Elsa von Spielburg OR TheWayItEnds, whichever doesn't get lynched today. If neither gets lynched, TheWayItEnds (so you can basically count this as a TWIE vote)

Also, I'm too lazy to go back and find it, but SP vig-voted DY, DY posted asking why, and SP vig-votes me. What. The. Heck. This almost looks too scummy to be scum, but I don't really like that argument very much. Too easy to write off what would be scummy as it.

MASTIN. I'M WAAAAAAAAAITIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING.........

EBWOP: I would swear BrokenScraps has a post restriction if I didn't know better.

[jilynne1991]

Many of soben's tells seem weak but

TWIE has the worst content of any of the lurkers

and has been talking scummy garbiage ever since his horrible initial cases.

Amazing content you got there yourself.

I DON'T CARE.

Amazing. Simply Amazing.

Ok, you need to start caring about the game, and actually putting into some effort, since your comments are quite rude considering many other people are trying and caring, while you're making quick decisions that you should be thinking about.

[jilynne1991]

Oh crap, I feel so bad, I'm sorry brokenscraps, I usually post while I'm reading, and I really wish I read a little further first.

I'm so sorry, I should of read a bit more before posting! Sorry! Please ignore the above post. Thanks for making your case!

[jilynne1991]

OMG, I honestly don't know what's up with me, I'm over WormyKrew.

Unvote

[jilynne1991]

OMG, ok, if I don't snap out of whatever I'm in, I will seriously go and never /in for another game, since obviously I'm having problems.

Ok, sorry, Secret Project, somehow I got your and MrBump's avatar mixed up and I thought you said you wanted my role and flips a b----. Sorry! *facepalm* Crap!

[jilynne1991]

OMG, ok I've screwed up now, like 5x? OMG, OMG, OMG

SO SECRET PROJECT DID SAY THAT! CRAP, IGNORE THE PREVIOUS POST. OMG, OMG, OMG

UGH

[jilynne1991]

Elsa von Spielburg (4): WormyKrew, Captain Corporal, Soben, DarthYoshi, brokenscraps

weirdalexv (2): Secret Project, mastin2

TheWayItEnds (1): weirdalexv

You guys, I honestly don't think we should be lynching someone that's on V/LA, though that's your choice.

[DarthYoshi]

Yoshi, I pointed out the scumslip already, and admitted it was weak.

Where? I have gone through your ISO with a fine-toothed comb, and the closest I can find to this is your ISO #52, where you say I scumslipped in a manner similar to WK, but you didn't actually point it out, so there isn't a whole lot I can say about it.

BTW, PoE + an admittedly weak scumslip is the basis for what you were claiming earlier was a #1 scumread? C'mon.

I have other reasons to think you're scum, and am working on explaining it. It's not something which I can say out of the blue,
"Yoshi is scum because of X, Y, and Z."

Believe me, I'd love to. But my mind doesn't work that way. Converting my thought process into more traditional terms like, "Yoshi is scum because of X, Y, and Z." Takes me hours to do, and I have been suffering setback after setback in Real Life hindering me further. I'm working on it. That's really all I can say. Communication is my weakest point. I cannot convey easily what I intend to. If it were that easy, I'd be magnitudes better of a scumhunter. (Refer to my sig--not my job to be convincing, my job to be right.) Knowing Is Half The Battle. Explaining being the other half, and the explaining half, I REALLY suck at.

Mastin, you replaced in 11 days ago, and if in 11 days you can't come up with a lucid explanation for why I'm scum, I'm pretty sure you're reaching. Stop tunneling on me. Please, I say this in all seriousness, why not next time not actually give your reads until you can articulate them in any sort of fashion? I don't even care if it is in wall-fashion, anything would be better than what you've been giving us this game.

@TWIE: Are you always this unpleasant to play with? I wrote it off in 1100 because of the slot you replaced into, but here, srsly, quit acting like such an asshole, or I will ask the mod to forcibly replace you. Going off on multiple f-bomb rants on players is wholly unnecessary and only serves to make the game unpleasant for the rest of us.

Also, I asked for a suspect list from you. Please and thank you.

Also, not being willing to offer townreads at all is just stupid, especially later in the game when PoE actually DOES matter in scumhunting. Townhunting informs scumhunting. Neglecting townreads is a bad, bad way to play.

Also, it bears repeating--stop acting like such an asshole.

Also, I'm too lazy to go back and find it, but SP vig-voted DY, DY posted asking why, and SP vig-votes me. What. The. Heck. This almost looks too scummy to be scum, but I don't really like that argument very much. Too easy to write off what would be scummy as it.

Then why'd you point it out if you were just going to publicly second guess yourself about it like that?

@Jily: Speaking only for myself, I'm not asking you to vig Elsa because she's V/LA, I'm asking you to vig her because of everything she did before going V/LA.

[jilynne1991]

Ok, but can please not end the day before she gets back and has a chance to reply then? Also, I'd like everyone to keep in mind that this is all assuming they don't have a role blocker. I'll take a guess and say that if we have two power roles, they probably have a role blocker, otherwise, probably not.

[mastin2]

Where? I have gone through your ISO with a fine-toothed comb, and the closest I can find to this is your ISO #52, where you say I scumslipped in a manner similar to WK, but you didn't actually point it out, so there isn't a whole lot I can say about it.

It's there where I explain the WormyKrew slip. And like I said, yours was a far more mild case. I still saw it, but thought it was weak.

BTW, PoE + an admittedly weak scumslip is the basis for what you were claiming earlier was a #1 scumread?

This Strawman is getting old.
Fast.

It is NOT the basis for my scumread! It's one of the many reasons you're scum. I'm just having a LOT of trouble explaining this in traditional logical terms, rather than Mastin Logic.

Mastin, you replaced in 11 days ago, and if in 11 days you can't come up with a lucid explanation for why I'm scum, I'm pretty sure you're reaching.

It's lucid to ME. Just I know it wouldn't be to others. Needless to say, a lot of the things people are giving you town-credit for are things which ping MY scum radar.

So, yeah. Not reaching to me.

I'm trying to explain things in a way that won't be seen as reaching by others.

If that makes sense.


Put bluntly: I know I'm on to the correct scumteam, and that Elsa/Alex/TWIE won't end well. I might not be exactly right, but I'm definitely on the right path. I just have no persuasive skills, and know that historically (you can see evidence of it in-thread!), my reads are seen as less credible when I give my reasons, because to others, the reasons look like 1: nonsense, 2: BS, or 3: a combination thereof. Converting those reasons into something which WON'T be seen as Nonsense takes additional time.

Jily--I'll repeat. I doubt they have a roleblocker.

[jilynne1991]

Mastin2, I won't think your scum if they do, but I will give you h--- if it turns out they have a role blocker.

[TheWayItEnds]

@DY

Nope, only when I feel that players are being intentionally dense or deserving. You've just been lucky enough to catch both games where thats been the case.

broken
alex
mastin

I explained why I dislike making my townreads public at all points in the game at length in newbie 1100... would you really like me to do so again here?

[DarthYoshi]

Mastin, you're missing the point. It may be a strawman to you, but to EVERYONE else in the game, it isn't, precisely because it is all you have offered. We can't read your mind, we can't read your QT. So you may feel like I am stawmanning you, but the reality is I am defending myself the best I can against what evidence you've presented me. In a courtroom, how would it look for a defendant to say, "Yeah, you didn't actually say why I'm guilty," and for the prosecutor to reply only with, "No, there's more, I swear! Stop focusing only on the weak stuff!" The jury would laugh. Come on.

@TWIE: Alex and broken I get, but why is Mastin scummy?

[DarthYoshi]

Also,

Unvote. Vote: Alduskkel.

WK is not off the hook, not by a long shot, but Ald hasn't offered legitimate content since last Thursday, and unlike Elsa, didn't actually declare V/LA. He has parked his vote on what started as the Gerhard Krause playslot and hasn't moved it once, which on D1 is a significant scumtell for me, because (1) it indicates both a lack of proactive scumhunting using your most powerful scumhunting weapon, (2) that he has placed it where he now knows the lynch likely won't occur, so he won't be on the wagon that will be subsequently scrutinized if the lynchee flips town, and (3, and perhaps most importantly), he voted the GK slot and then doesn't do much interacting with that slot as of late--I think town is much more apt to interact with the players they think are scum to try to get them to slip further; compartmentalizing your D1 interactions is very much scummy.

This is strengthened by the reality that Ald has completely abstained from the vig-vote discussion. I was V/LA and still managed to contribute to it in my very first post back.

WK can wait. Let's lynch Alduskkel.

[Captain Corporal]

All of TWIEs swearing sounds like an AtR. Trololol.

I still want Elsa lynched. We cannot assume that there is no roleblocker.

[wierdalexv]

Mastin, you're missing the point. It may be a strawman to you, but to EVERYONE else in the game, it isn't, precisely because it is all you have offered. We can't read your mind, we can't read your QT. So you may feel like I am stawmanning you, but the reality is I am defending myself the best I can against what evidence you've presented me. In a courtroom, how would it look for a defendant to say, "Yeah, you didn't actually say why I'm guilty," and for the prosecutor to reply only with, "No, there's more, I swear! Stop focusing only on the weak stuff!" The jury would laugh. Come on.

Mastin, DarthYoshi is 100% correct. We NEED your case. I don't care if it's Mastin-logic, we need to see it. How hard is it to Copy/Paste what's in your QT?

Also, I'm too lazy to go back and find it, but SP vig-voted DY, DY posted asking why, and SP vig-votes me. What. The. Heck. This almost looks too scummy to be scum, but I don't really like that argument very much. Too easy to write off what would be scummy as it.

Then why'd you point it out if you were just going to publicly second guess yourself about it like that?

I always try to post exactly what's on my mind, no matter what it looks like to others.

Also: TheWayItEnds' reaction to pressure is really, really scummy.

Here's his response to everything

"You've got to be [REDACTED - NAUGHTY WORD] kidding me."
No, we're not kidding. Give me one good reason why the arguments are wrong.

@DarthYoshi: I don't think a lurker-lynch is a good idea. Let's wait and see what he has to say for himself first, and then decide after that.

[WormyKrew]

@Soben
Sorry, Krew is a bit busy in real life and ear is... where the hell IS ear?!

@mastin
Case. Now.

@TWIE
My vote may be coming to you soon, but I need to clarify with my other head. Most likely.

@Everyone
So, nothing you want answered then o.o

[wierdalexv]

So....to get some more discussion going, I have some questions:

@WormyKrew: Who are your top 3 suspects, other than TWIE?
@DarthYoshi: Why is Alduskkel>WormyKrew? You seemed to have a lot more suspicion on WormyKrew.
@mastin2: Why do you keep avoiding bringing your case when we keep telling you to just post what you have? You haven't explained your DY-scumslip or my townslip yet, and they were brought up a LOOOOOONG time ago.
@TheWayItEnds: Do you have any explanation to WHY the contradictions make no sense, other than just saying "You've got to be [REDACTED] kidding me"?
@Alduskkel, when you come back: Why have you been absent, and what is your response to DY's case on you?
@Captain Corporal: AtR? What does the R stand for, I'm drawing a blank.

[Captain Corporal]

Appeal to Ridicule.
Sorry for the unclearness.

[wierdalexv]

Oh yeah. For some reason that's not in the wiki...

And you're completely right.

[Secret Project]

Why Krew should be lynched

• Buddied us when we looked the most town. Originally called Ironhead town then voted him with little reasoning a few posts later.
• Scum list contains alex, in a safe middle spot where he's not bussing too hard but he's still bussing. Implies there is 3 scum. Alex is obvscum which is why this point works.
• Misrepresenting everything I said about chainsawing
• in iso 46 goes back to Ironhead for his interactions with TOWN (jil is obvtown, mastin is probtown but I'll want him lynched probably D4 if the game isn't over after alex, krew, elsa, and TWIE are dead)
• tries to vig a null read instead of a weak scum read, blatant bandwagoning of the vig vote that's NOT alex to keep him alive longer
• generally not being much of a help to town, ignores reading most players in favor of focusing on only 4 or 5 of them.

Btw just for the hell of it, here's my current lists

Town (no order): Soben, Captain Corporal, Jil, Yoshi, Brokenscraps, Alduskkel,
Scum (in order): Alex, Krew, mastin
Null: the rest. Notice elsa and TWIE are both in this. I honestly haven't paid much attention to them. Maybe marill will have more insight on their play but probably not. I haven't read in a couple pages so I'll do that and maybe have a reply to Soben's post.

unvote, vote: krew

I want alex vigged. Maybe I'll defend elsa.

[Secret Project]

in other news, jil can't count to 5.

[Soben]

OMGUS doesn't make me look bad. It's the easiest way to degrade an argument before even reading into the argument, then I'm stuck having to justify my vote as something besides OMGUS, something it never was. It's an easy fucking out that I don't want to deal with.

So are you attempting to say that the main issue here is that you would have to justify your vote on solid grounds or reasoning, in what way is that an issue if you believe we're mafia? That's essentially saying - I suspect you but can't vote you because then I would have to actually come up with a reason!

If I point out that mastin's reasoning for WK scum happened after he was already pushing the wagon, and then go on to say that I would like to see the real reasons (if they exist). The only conclusion that I can come to from that is that I'm suspicious of the mastin push. That his push of the WK wagon looks like a scum push. That mastin could be scum.

Again, that's not making a conclusion, you're attempting to say your thoughts on Mastin relies soley on what he comes up with in relation to the WK wagon while completly ignoring everything else he's done in the game.

I read a normal. It involved 2 scum, a townie who was really scum as far as endgame when. 1-shot PR's and fakeclaiming out the ass.
The Vig claim sorta makes me believe that this game is not like that one.

Was that the only one you checked and you can please provide a link to it.

MR1.... You posted a meta case and called for votes because I wasn't "acting town enough". That's calling for a lynch as far as I see it.

Had you read what we actually said you would have seen: Prove my fos wrong if you are town, a legitimate defense would not be "irrelevant" to us. Basically what I want to know is "Why are you not being an active townie THIS game?" I don't care about previous games necessarily. They only serve to prove you are capable of better play as town. The fact you aren't helping out and you are able to is scummy. I'm willing to listen but you need to provide something worthwhile here.

You asked me to post a list of everyone so that I could narrow down to who the scum is. I refused. I said that I would not be providing a list because I don't care who town is, because the entirety of the scum game is to look town. "Put out towntells" Therefore, I feel that that sort of list is not going to help. And since I've already fucking explained this and you... what? forgot? Ignored it? When I find town... you'll be the fucking last to know. Because I won't fucking tell you. Because I'm not going to point out all the "towntells" and go look how fucking town this person is. That doesn't help me find scum.

Where did I ask you for a list, this is a legitimate question. Quote me to where I asked you for a list of everyone in the room, Protip: I didn't, not once, you're speaking out of your ass right now.

[Soben]

Put bluntly: I know I'm on to the correct scumteam, and that Elsa/.Alex/TWIE won't end well. I might not be exactly right, but I'm definitely on the right path.

I don't think I can make this any more clear - I've provided a list of things that make me believe TWIE is mafia that DOESN'T involve meta or his level of activity which are the reasons you don't want to lynch him. Now can you at least respond to those?

Why Krew should be lynched
1 • Buddied us when we looked the most town. Originally called Ironhead town then voted him with little reasoning a few posts later.
2 • Scum list contains alex, in a safe middle spot where he's not bussing too hard but he's still bussing. Implies there is 3 scum. Alex is obvscum which is why this point works.
3 • Misrepresenting everything I said about chainsawing
4 • in iso 46 goes back to Ironhead for his interactions with TOWN (jil is obvtown, mastin is probtown but I'll want him lynched probably D4 if the game isn't over after alex, krew, elsa, and TWIE are dead)
5 • tries to vig a null read instead of a weak scum read, blatant bandwagoning of the vig vote that's NOT alex to keep him alive longer
6 • generally not being much of a help to town, ignores reading most players in favor of focusing on only 4 or 5 of them.

Thank you for actually completing this.
1. I don't disagree that they buddied you however I fail to see that as a strong scum-tell. They didn't exactly contradict themselves in their vote of Ironhead, the reasoning for their inital unvote of him had to do with him providing reasonable content which isn't a town-tell.
2. See, here's the problem, you're essentially saying: He's mafia because he's mafia. Do you find it impossible that he could legitimatly suspect Alex as town?
3. Show links to this please.
4. How does his interactions with Iron make him mafia? Again you're doing the: He's mafia because he's mafia logic.
5. This is actually a decent point:

Wormy - Why do you want Elsa vigged?

6. You yourself have only focused on 4-5 players so I'm unsure how you see that as a particular scum-tell however I would agree that lately they haven't been providing that much content.