Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[DemonHybrid]

Seriously, she could be 13, 7, 41, 23, or 150 years old for all I care. Point is, she's not answering anything and she's certainly not scumhunting.

[Heliman]

@DemonHybrid

If I had a nickel for every time I've seen a newb town fail to scum hunt retroactively... I'd have at least over 25 cents I'm sure. Point is, it happens often.

Which doesn't mean it should.

@Jilynne

Reading into Archaebobs meta I've noticed that the following question is a pet peeve of his, but frankly I don't care. Jily, who are your top 3 scumpicks right now? remember to state why for each person.

@Archaebob:

...Well I didn't see anything as overdefensive in the games where you were scum. w/e, reduced to null tell on that line of reasoning. however.

Interestingly enough, I did find a thread where you got all up in a player's ass about FoSing in RVS stage, and how that player turned up scum. I assume that that hunch is where you're getting your current read from. U_U mm hmm. However, I would like to note one teensy weensy little difference between your scumhunt and the result of this past game. It can be found here:

I think that, without realizing it, jilyenne reflexively softened her random vote on hiplop because hiplop is her buddy. That knowledge affected her confidence in random voting him because she knew that the vote was fake. Downgrading the vote to an FoS was her subconscious way of distancing from it.

Funny thing is, when you called out the scum in that old game, the person the scum FoS'd was town. Explain the difference.


NINJA EDIT: oh lawds I better actually post that game I was talking about.
Mini 1026

[jilynne1991]

Ok, I'll tell you who exactly tomorrow, when all my projects are done and I won't ever have homework again for 7th grade! YAYYYYY

[ace5993]

Up to the dashed line is responding to stuff before archaebob revealed what he was doing, so any opinions there are based upon the fact that post #199 hadn't happened yet. I'm also just answering questions directed at me up until the dashed line.

@ Ace -

And how exactly does one "pick" somebody for a lynch? If I can't make a persuasive argument, no one will sheep me. Your entire stance is based on the false premise that my refusing to answer questions and "dictating" to the town will somehow give me a hold on everyone's opinion.

What I'm saying is that given enough pressure, everybody can say something that could be twisted into a scumtell. By directing the flow of conversation to different people you can control who gets more of an opportunity to make a "scumtell".

There are lot of players right now who are doing

nothing

to help the town. Some have hardly posted at all. You don't like that I don't make myself transparent. I get you. But if I'm scum, I've committed myself to an active post rate and a promise for satisfactory explanations later. What has the rest of the town committed to?

You're posting a lot yes, but look at your posts in ISO. In posts 1-28 you didn't post an opinion on anyone except jilynne. You sure asked a lot of questions but never actually posted an opinion.

Ace, I'm also curious to hear what you think about Giitah's mcSheepful vote onto me.

It's not great but not overly scummy.

@nintendoaddict

- /facepalm

@Heliman

- I don't object to reaction testing per se, I just object to it when that's the only thing you're doing and it's appearing to stall the game.

Is no one bothered by the fact that jil has now failed to address this question three times?

After the line (spoiler - no).

Please let me point out to the 10th player out of 13 players to join the thread (that's you, Ace) that I was the

second

vote on jillyne out of what was eventually as many as 5 votes. I stated my reasons at the time and never heard a defense, so I asked for more info. That later post is what Ace used to claim I was BWing jillyne. That's not bandwagoning, that's playing the game. As far as bandwagoning...let's look at your own earlier post, Ace...

I like the jilynne wagon

but can't post in bold from my phone, incoming vote in like two hours barring significant developments.

I realize this is just D1 and great cases are hard to find. But, Ace seems to be throwing accusations without really reading the thread well. Ace doesn't even seem to recall his own earlier stands when throwing around votes. Hopefully that will change as we move forward, but it does bear further watching as we move through the round.

For the wagon vote, I didn't dislike the wagon vote because you were on the wagon, I didn't like the post because you felt the need to restate exactly what Heliman had said in different words. It felt like you were trying to make it look like you actually made up reasoning. Of course you could have just been clarifying that Heliman's reason was why you were voting, that's just what it felt like to me. The main reason I quoted that post was to show that it was a wagon vote; you didn't spearhead the case.

However, your second (non-RVS) post is the one I had more issue with:

maybe it's a time zone issue but we are at L-2 and don't seem to see a defense.

I don't see why you would post this less than 4 hours since she was at L-2. It seems like you're either trying to make Jil look scummier than she is or look way too hard for something to post just for the sake of making a post.

Now let's analyze this recent post:

1. Only content is replying to my vote on you.
2. Overly defensive.
3. Last part of the post is slightly OMGUS-y.

For your next post:

Top 3 scum reads and why (I also have no idea why archaebob doesn't like this question and I also don't care).

Also yes I supported the Jil wagon at that time, it didn't have great reasoning behind it (what case on page 3 does?) but I figured I may as well add to the pressure to get a bigger reaction. There was absolutely no reason for anyone

not

to support that wagon at that time.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Post #199 - while I no longer think bob is scum I also facepalmed pretty damn hard.

Unvote,

Vote: BarryAllen

again for now.

The new case on Jil:

Why are you defending her? Let her respond by herself without being fed good defenses by you.

Sorry but I'm just going to save time and shoot the case down myself so we don't waste another 10 pages on it.

Let's start throwing around the Idiot Ball.

FoS: archaebob and Heliman

for jumping on the bandwagon. ^^

FoS on gilitah for possessing an idiot ball

This game...

Fos: hiplop

for spelling Giitah's name wrong.

These were four consecutive posts on the first page. Giitah FoS's two people. Hiplop FoS's giitah. Quoted nintendoaddict just because it was in there. Jilynne FoS's hiplop. Get it? It was a chain of FoS's. One person FoS'd, so the next person FoS'd that person for whatever RVS reason, then the next person FoS'd that person for another RVS reason.

Did you even read the FoS in context or were you just looking at the ISO? This isn't a case of softer treatment or whatever you said the case was, it's a case of the flow during RVS. An FoS was more natural than a vote at this moment.

As for the other post of hers you quoted - this is a more valid point, however the fact that it was answering a question rather than a spontaneously made up case on hiplop dampens the argument. She may find hiplop scummy but not the scummiest player in the game, or simply not scummy enough to warrant a vote. Not voting for anyone isn't always a scumtell, despite what those with more aggressive playstyles may think.

Apologies if I spoiled your big plan to get more reactions out of Jil but honestly she's been at L-2 before, we got a reaction from that, and 8 pages later you are still going after her? I mean with that reasoning, seriously? At the beginning of your explanation post I figured you had some huge scumtell on Jil that we had all missed but honestly this is not a good case. Let's forget about it now shall we?

I thought there was stuff worth analyzing past there but on second glance I don't really see anything significant so meh. Re-reading the thread + properly reading pages 9-10 tomorrow, that'll do for now.

[Spadille]

@mod: I still want to play this game. Can I for an extension until Saturday?

[Barry Allen]

For the wagon vote, I didn't dislike the wagon vote because you were on the wagon, I didn't like the post because you felt the need to restate exactly what Heliman had said in different words. It felt like you were trying to make it look like you actually made up reasoning. Of course you could have just been clarifying that Heliman's reason was why you were voting, that's just what it felt like to me. The main reason I quoted that post was to show that it was a wagon vote; you didn't spearhead the case.

First of all, to my latecomer Ace who only started his

own

content when he decided to misread the thread and vote for me...my vote was the second one on jill out of 5 votes. My later post was not restating someone else, it was stating my own concern that jill had not (and

still

has not for that matter) defended herself. Now, let's go back to your quote...

However, your second (non-RVS) post is the one I had more issue with:

maybe it's a time zone issue but we are at L-2 and don't seem to see a defense.

I don't see why you would post this less than 4 hours since she was at L-2. It seems like you're either trying to make Jil look scummier than she is or look way too hard for something to post just for the sake of making a post.

I was considering that there were far more hours than 4 since the votes had started on jill, yet no defense had been posted. The time zone note was just placing one caveat to my concern, but still pressuring jill to finally step up and defend herself, something that has yet to happen.

Now let's analyze this recent post:

1. Only content is replying to my vote on you.
2. Overly defensive.
3. Last part of the post is slightly OMGUS-y.

1. Actually, Ace posted very little content before going after me. Most of Ace's posts were quick one-or-two liners after quotes of others, with little real contribution to the discussion. Certainly there has been more "content" in coming after me, and later Bob, but that's been about it.
2. Ace, I've only defended myself...something several of us have been asking Jill to do for some time. It's not being defensive, it's called putting on a defense when you are accused and you respond.
3. This is where Ace is being overly defensive. If I were ready to FoS you I would have done so.

For your next post:

Top 3 scum reads and why (I also have no idea why archaebob doesn't like this question and I also don't care).

I am watching hiplops swings back and forth in posting, Jill's lack of defense, and am debating a 3rd read...I'd like to get a chance off the road to re-read the thread before posting that. In the meantime, what are your top 3, Ace? You've backed off Bob and seem to be focusing on just me, but surely you have additional reads so let's hear them as well.

One last note...there seems to be a lot of attention given to jillyne's age. I don't believe that to be a valid factor, as I've seen people that age play exceptionally well in other rounds. I'm one of the oldest players on this site (as well as on the other sites where I play mafia), and do not believe that to be an advantage...in fact I've had my hat handed to me by players that age before, so I'm simply playing the round and taking each player seriously. In fact, I don't pay attention to the demographic info for a player (as that may or may not be accurate), but rather I watch the actual game play to make my own determinations.

[hiplop]

These were four consecutive posts on the first page. Giitah FoS's two people. Hiplop FoS's giitah. Quoted nintendoaddict just because it was in there. Jilynne FoS's hiplop. Get it? It was a chain of FoS's. One person FoS'd, so the next person FoS'd that person for whatever RVS reason, then the next person FoS'd that person for another RVS reason.

Did you even read the FoS in context or were you just looking at the ISO? This isn't a case of softer treatment or whatever you said the case was, it's a case of the flow during RVS. An FoS was more natural than a vote at this moment.

As for the other post of hers you quoted - this is a more valid point, however the fact that it was answering a question rather than a spontaneously made up case on hiplop dampens the argument. She may find hiplop scummy but not the scummiest player in the game, or simply not scummy enough to warrant a vote. Not voting for anyone isn't always a scumtell, despite what those with more aggressive playstyles may think.

Apologies if I spoiled your big plan to get more reactions out of Jil but honestly she's been at L-2 before, we got a reaction from that, and 8 pages later you are still going after her? I mean with that reasoning, seriously? At the beginning of your explanation post I figured you had some huge scumtell on Jil that we had all missed but honestly this is not a good case. Let's forget about it now shall we?

I thought there was stuff worth analyzing past there but on second glance I don't really see anything significant so meh. Re-reading the thread + properly reading pages 9-10 tomorrow, that'll do for now.

Thank you. thats exactly what i was trying to say. I take th beginning of RVS as a time for fun, randomvotes/fos's. Nothing is serious. After a while it becomes a great asset to the town, though

[nintendoaddict1]

@ nintendo -

So just to be clear, you're sticking with your vote on me?

Until you give me a good reason to remove it, yes.

[archaebob]

@ nintendoaddict -

It's not my job "to give you a good reason to remove it." The burden is on you to show everyone that your vote is helping town. What are you accomplishing with your vote right now?

@ ace -

We didn't get a reaction from her. She still hasn't responded to my question, and you just guaranteed that she won't. Here's my question to you: if she was scum, how would you know right now?

It's never protown to defend someone unless you already

know

that they aren't capable of defending themselves, and they are actually about to be lynched. You shouldn't have done what you just did, period. Cases aren't just about the people they are directed at; we might have caught scum trying to bandwagon, or maybe as they made a big show of

not

bandwagoning, or a million other alignment revealing reactions that people could have had to my case if you had just let it sit there for a sec. For example, I think we learned a fair amount about hiplop from his reaction to my case.

Also, did you see Jil's explanation for the FoS? It conflicts with your defense of her.

@ Heliman -

Can you provide the quotes from my meta that are bothering you?

[nintendoaddict1]

@ nintendoaddict -

It's not my job "to give you a good reason to remove it." The burden is on you to show everyone that your vote is helping town. What are you accomplishing with your vote right now?

Not your job? iirc you are still at L-2 and no one has unvoted, so obviously it is your job, and you're doing a poor job of it.

[archaebob]

unvote vote Pine

Do something. You're still voting me for my

Giitah

vote? Give me a break.

@ everyone -

Read his iso, note how utterly devoid of content his play is, and vote this lurker scum. He's done nothing, and his multiple failures to read the thread, combined with weird posts like this

@ Pine -

Do I get token town points for calmly responding to your unwarranted accusation?

No. And you get a few taken away for requesting them.

Yes, I'm serious.

make his more than deserving of a wagon in my eyes. If he's town, he needs a major kick in the ass. Right now he looks like scum camping on a plausible-looking vote without bothering to double check his posts, or make any attempt to pressure or question me.

[nintendoaddict1]

without... any attempt to pressure or question me.

You're saying Pine is scum because he is

not

pressuring or questioning you?

[nintendoaddict1]

And why the sudden jump to Pine? Did you find an answer from jil that no one else knows about?

[archaebob]

without... any attempt to pressure or question me.

You're saying Pine is scum because he is

not

pressuring or questioning you?

Yes. He doesn't seem to be very interested in catching scum, and I don't buy that he still suspects me for my Giitah vote. Do you?

And why the sudden jump to Pine? Did you find an answer from jil that no one else knows about?

No, but Ace has done everything in his power to prevent jil from feeling remotely pressured by my vote or my case. I've been waiting for jil to answer me for several pages now, and I need to move on.

Tell me nintendo. You don't like my play because of...something. Fine. Are you at all bothered by the total lack of content in Pine's posts? If he was scum, how would you know?

[nintendoaddict1]

without... any attempt to pressure or question me.

You're saying Pine is scum because he is

not

pressuring or questioning you?

Yes. He doesn't seem to be very interested in catching scum, and I don't buy that he still suspects me for my Giitah vote. Do you?

And why the sudden jump to Pine? Did you find an answer from jil that no one else knows about?

No, but Ace has done everything in his power to prevent jil from feeling remotely pressured by my vote or my case. I've been waiting for jil to answer me for several pages now, and I need to move on.

Tell me nintendo. You don't like my play because of...something. Fine. Are you at all bothered by the total lack of content in Pine's posts? If he was scum, how would you know?

Since he voted you, he hasn't even mentioned you, so what makes you so sure he still suspects you?

If you need to move on... then move on. Yes, I am bothered by his lack of content, he is usually more active. But in another completed game I played with Pine, (Mini 1156) he turned out to be scum, so his lack of activity here is a towntell for him.

As for me not liking your play, I'll have to get into that later as I am going out the door.

[Deuxieme Octopus]

Vote: Pine

. This will sound like total buddying, but I've read through the game thus far (sorry for the absence, was at Bonnaroo -- thought i'd have 3G but didn't) and I found that when you read Pine in iso like archaebob suggests, it definitely comes across as more than a bit vacuous and therefore, fishy. Over 10 pages of posting, Pine drops in a quiet 9 that, with the exception of the "big" post where he unvote-votes bob, are generally obsessed with rolefishing. His last 5 posts have all been like some sort of list of maxims or something, little one-sentence deals such as

Generally, the only people that start the game looking for third party roles are scum themselves.

Well that's enough for the Deuxieme. Back to lurking.

[archaebob]

@ Deuxieme -

Please don't go back to lurking.

Can you give your opinion on:

ace
hiplop
barry allen
demon hybrid

[Heliman]

@Deuxieme

Actually, in addition to just going over a few players, would you mind giving us your thoughts on the whole game so far? You know, what you've thought of all the various arguments and whatnot.

@Nintendoaddict11

Do you have any response to the hiplop argument that I blew out of the water earlier? It was pretty scummy of you to pull.

@archaebob

@ Heliman -
Can you provide the quotes from my meta that are bothering you?

I don't need any, there is just the simple fact that the player who the scum that you got lynched FoS'd in that game turned up town.

It's never protown to defend someone unless you already

know

that they aren't capable of defending themselves, and they are actually about to be lynched.

*Cough* 13, new player and had half the active players on her tail stemming from a bad argument. *cough* Also, I totally agree with Ace's post regarding your Jil case. This totally invalidates your argument from its advent. Also, its anti-town to point that out? If there is some sort of GLARING FLAW in someone's argument, pointing it out is obviously the pro town thing to do, because it makes sure that people don't start wasting pages and pages of time and info riding on a lame horse of an argument. Plus, you certainly didn't complain when I brushed a few of the bad arguments off you.

unvote vote Pine

Read his iso, note how utterly devoid of content his play is, and vote this lurker scum. He's done nothing, and his multiple failures to read the thread, combined with weird posts like this

A policy lynch? really? Archaebob, why doesn't this argument apply to Jil, who hasn't contributed to scum hunting enough? Better yet, why doesn't this apply to Hiplop, who has been sheeping and reasonless voting since we started?

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

If you have a point to make about my meta, you need to provide quotes. Context is everything. I don't even know what game you're talking about right now.

*Cough* 13, new player and had half the active players on her tail stemming from a bad argument.

First ten pages, people talking about something instead of sitting on their asses. What's your point?

*cough* Also, I totally agree with Ace's post regarding your Jil case.

I do too. You want a cough drop?

This totally invalidates your argument from its advent. Also, its anti-town to point that out? If there is some sort of GLARING FLAW in someone's argument, pointing it out is obviously the pro town thing to do, because it makes sure that people don't start wasting pages and pages of time and info riding on a lame horse of an argument.

It doesn't invalidate my argument at all. What do you think my argument is exactly?

And yes, it's anti-town to point that out in the first ten pages of a game. You are depriving the town of a reaction. If it's near deadline and a player is about to be mislynched because of a bad argument,

then

you can jump right in. Anybody with half a brain could see that the wagon on jil wasn't a lynch wagon.

Plus, you certainly didn't complain when I brushed a few of the bad arguments off you.

I wasn't scumhunting me. I was scumhunting jil. There's lots of stuff I disagree with that I haven't commented on yet, and if you go after everything that bothers you, you lose focus.

A policy lynch? really?

I don't know what makes you think 1) that I'm pushing for a lynch or 2) that my Pine vote is purely based on policy.

Do you have any understanding of Day 1 play? It's page 10. Nobody is getting lynched.

Archaebob, why doesn't this argument apply to Jil, who hasn't contributed to scum hunting enough? Better yet, why doesn't this apply to Hiplop, who has been sheeping and reasonless voting since we started?

I haven't said that it doesn't apply to them. All you know is that I picked

one

target and made an argument about that

one

person.

Heliman, I have no patience for games. If you have an issue with me, drop a vote and make a case. Or don't. I don't care. But you need to be doing something that will give me more information about you and/or someone else. I'm not at all impressed with your cute questions, glib hints, or typed coughs. You are transparent as fucking air to me.

Man up and come after me, or go find something more productive to do with yourself. How about helping me find out why Pine hasn't done anything to help town?

[pappums rat]

Found the opportunity to put up a quick vote count. Please let me know if I messed up anywhere.

Vote Count 1.5

archaebob- 2 (nintendoaddict1, Pine)
jilynne1991 - 2 (Barry Allen, DemonHybrid)
Pine - 2 (archaebob, Deuxieme Octopus)
Heliman - 1 (Spadille)
Giitah - 1 (hiplop)
hiplop - 1 (Giitah)
Barry Allen - 1 (ace5993)

Not voting - jilynne1991, Scumhunter, Heliman

With 13 alive it takes 7 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is 12 A.M. on June 26, 2011.


Spadille's V/LA has been extended to Saturday.

[archaebob]

@ nintendo -

I'm not sure he suspects me at all. That's the whole point.

And you didn't answer my question from before. What are you accomplishing with your vote?

[nintendoaddict1]

@ nintendo -

I'm not sure he suspects me at all. That's the whole point.

And you didn't answer my question from before. What are you accomplishing with your vote?

Right now, it's not doing much of anything, it seems.

UNVOTE:

[ace5993]

And yes, it's anti-town to point that out in the first ten pages of a game. You are depriving the town of a reaction. If it's near deadline and a player is about to be mislynched because of a bad argument,

then

you can jump right in. Anybody with half a brain could see that the wagon on jil wasn't a lynch wagon.

How much more of a reaction did you want from her? Would each additional question posed to her at L-2 have had a more useful reaction? Did we need to go to L-1? You say you were scumhunting Jil but if your idea of scumhunting is tunneling on someone for 10 (you wanted more actually) pages, how are we going to scumhunt everyone?

@BarryAllen -

I'm beginning to think that my suspicions on you are merely quirks of your posting style so I'll

Unvote

. However could you please point where hiplop is swinging back and forth with his posts? I'm not seeing it.

As for my three reads:

Pine for reasons already stated by Bob, plus the rolefishing stuff.
Giitah, though before I expand on this I will ask - have you ever played mafia before on another site?
I also don't really have a third scum read anymore.

Vote: Pine

[nintendoaddict1]

@Nintendoaddict11

Do you have any response to the hiplop argument that I blew out of the water earlier? It was pretty scummy of you to pull.

What case? You don't talk about hiplop much, just to FoS him and say he's boxing himself into a corner. And how was it scummy for me to do?

[archaebob]

@ ace - It's not just about her reactions. Pay attention to what I've already said on this point. Let's debate theory later.

@ nintendo -

Vote for someone. If you aren't going to vote pine, fine, but you need to pick a target. Help us learn about a player in this thread by making them respond to something you are doing.