Newbie 1116 -- Game Over

[Grimmjow]

Actually, I took a step back and read through both VE's and my own post again, and I can see what Workdawg is saying. I'm not, however, willing to say that VE is town. I can understand how it would look from an outside perspective, but I still disagree wholeheartedly with VE's accusations of me and I've stated my case and I still think he's scum. I'm not changing my vote, but as this is essentially getting us no where, I say we let it lie but keep an eye on one another, since I certainly will be keeping an eye on VE.

I do, however, want to make one comment before I let this sit on the back burner.

And I hope everyone else sees your vote for what it is, a vote on me because I voted on you. Until I brought any attention to bear on you, you've considered me town. Now that the light shines your way, people can see you for what you are. Don't get mad at me about it.

Actually, this is bullshit. I started leaning less town on you when I was posting my thoughts on page 6. I started seeing you in a scummier light then, and with your ridiculous case on me, and then going back an analyzing it, I can see pretty clearly where you are scum. But, like I said, this isn't going to get us anywhere, really.

Unless, of course, the rest of the town chimes in with their reads on the situation, which is what I'm really hoping to happen, since their input will make this issue more valid, rather than just bickering back and forth between the two of us.

[Grimmjow]

Ah, and I just realized that I never did answer Workdawg's question:

What is everyone's experience with mafia? How many games have you played? Here or elsewhere, online, IRL? etc.

This is my second game, really. My first I played less than a day and had to replace out of it because of IRL circumstances. IRL, I've played once with my boyfriend and a couple of friends, but I was drunk as hell when I played, and don't really remember how they turned out XD

[VisceraEyes]

What I enjoy the most about your posts Grimm is how you tell me how bullshit everything I say is...just not why. WHY is my case against you ridiculous? WHY am I clearly scum? Everything I had against you, I cited examples and had specific reasons why I said the things I did...which I shared with the town openly. You're just like 'Nu uh! That's Bullshit!'

That'll probably fly for....another day. Any longer, and I'm in the wrong flipping town. -.-

[VisceraEyes]

I thought I should add that the previous statement was THICK with sarcasm as I typed it...but looking back, I can see how someone as astute as Miss JJ would call me out for saying that I like how lacking in content Grimm's posts are.

[Grimmjow]

Uhm, actually, I've given you examples as to why your reasoning was flawed. Or are you simply overlooking them? Everything you have stated I've rebutted with examples of why you were wrong. Shall I restate my entire friggin post again in layman's terms?

[VisceraEyes]

I'd appreciate if you didn't talk down to me like an idiot.

No, if you feel your reasoning is sufficient, don't go to any extra effort on my behalf. I'm comfortable with where my vote is.

[Grimmjow]

I apologize for talking down to you. That was wrong of me. I felt as though you were continuing to overlook my statements, so I got upset, and that was not right. So I am sorry.

As far as you being comfortable with where your vote is, I am as well.

I would also like to point out that VE had no suspicion of me at all until JJ placed her vote on me, then, pretty soon afterwards, he turned around and started analyzing my posts and providing faulty logic about my posts. Just something I noticed...

[Miss JJ]

Hey guys. Sorry, I've been really busy the last couple of days and have to get to bed soon. Anyway, I'll try to catch up on all this and post something tomorrow night.

[Nobody Special]

Dickov replaces Yonzy effective immediately.

[VisceraEyes]

UNVOTE: Grimmjow

This is asinine.

VOTE: No Lynch

I'm done scum-hunting today. I like how I prepare this huge post about Grimmjow and not a single person has an opinion on it. Not. One. Workdawg was closest to having an opinion, but it ended up being a segue into describing how he plays...not a comment about my case or Grimm's defense. This town is going nowhere, and quickly. I'm glad we have a replacement, that's certainly a start.

Votes are serious, people. If we mis-lynch someone, that's one less day we have before mafia wins. When someone makes a statement like "I'm going to be pushing for a lynch on X person today" that should mean something, ESPECIALLY since we have the option of not lynching. That means that said person has decided that lynching that person that day is more important to them than waiting for more information. It's a serious statement, that should be taken seriously.

As a result, I'm withdrawing my vote on Grimmjow. I'm willing to wait for more information before I push for a lynch on him. As I don't have any other leads, I'm changing my vote to 'No Lynch' and waiting.

[Workdawg]

Curious... I have some thoughts on this, but I have a meeting in a few minutes.

[bigAl]

First of all, Grimmjow - let's keep personal attacks to a minimum. If you disagree with someone, fine, but no need to call each other idiots. It's just a game afterall. Let's keep it fun. Your abrasiveness makes people less likely to trust you, I think.

@VE sorry for the late response. I can understand the frustration of writing up a big post any then having it ignored. I'll go through it here to start with.

Exhibit A: I admit that I was as confused as Grimm in #59. I hadn't seen Chainsaw defense used as an argument (much) before, but I don't think it really applies very well on page 1. Maybe Grimm is defending his scumpartner Workdawg here, but it looked like more of a mostly-arbitrary vote.

Exhibit C, D is a good point. It can be a lot easier to hide as scum if you get everyone else to post their reads and then just agree with them, rather than going first. Of course that argument works both ways - if there are other scum out there that Grimm is trying to get them to reveal themselves, by not posting his opinion it forces others to not copy him. So, um, I'm wishy-washy here. >.>

Exhibit E: I'm not sure I 100% agree with the "Lynch all liars" philosophy, but either way I don't like purposefully trying to catch people in a lie as an excuse to lynch them. Their play as a whole should be considered and only then decide if they're lynch-worthy.

I'm not calling cy a liar, persay, but I don't have evidence that he's not lying.

This is, as Grimmjow would put it, bullshit reasoning. You can't have suspicions for someone when there is no evidence one way or another here.

Exhibit F: If Grimm is counting one of VE's "oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever" as, for example, not understanding what "L-2" means, that irrelevant on VE's scumminess. It's a simple misunderstanding, which was later corrected. I don't see that as bad.

[ic hat]I'm sure most of you all know what the "L-X" means by now, but just in case: "L-X" means that someone is X votes away from a lynch. For example, L-1 means only one more vote is needed before a player is lynched. With nine players alive, that's equivalent to saying they have 4 votes.[/ic hat]

PS. I like your spoiler tag use. It makes things a lot easier to read.

VE and Grimm go on for a while more back and forth, but I think the above covers the jist of it. I think that a Day 1 No Lynch is a bad idea - even lynching a townie gives us more information than no lynch at all. I could tentatively support a Grimmjow lynch, but we still have up to fifteen more days until the deadline so I don't want to rush it. Let's make sure that Zihark's replacement and Dickov have time to contribute first at minimum.

[bigAl]

Also - tucah you promised a post three days ago. Contribute please?

[VisceraEyes]

@bigAl
We'll see what happens. I'm questioning about half my reads on Grimmjow at this point...but only the really ambiguous and reachy half (defending Workdawg, for example.) Hopefully Dickov will give us a fresh outlook.

[Workdawg]

@VE

Post 180 you say "I'm comfortable with where my vote is."

Post 184, not 3 hours later, you unvote and follow up with what appears to be a hissy fit about how no one commented about your case. Certainly there is a lack of activity around here, and that's no good, but what changed in those 3 hours? It hadn't even been posted for 24 hours and you've already backed down? It took me a long time to get used to the idea of days lasting WEEKS around here, but you've got understand that not everyone is going to be able to check the site every day; or even every couple days. It's even worse for someone who's super active, like you are.

Between the you and Grimm, you posted 3 pretty big walls. It's a lot to read, as bigAl pointed out. It's taken me a few rereads and I still don't really have my head around all of it.


VOTE: VE

For a handful of posts that come across as "too town" to me. WE NEED MOAR ACTIVITY! DON'T PUT ANYONE AT L-2! etc. It looks like he's just trying to earn some town cred to me.

(In fact, I wonder if post 83 was him trying to make sure his scum-buddy zihark wasn't lynched too early)

And for flopping around on his votes

Vote 1. Pressure vote on zihark because he hasn't posted much.
Vote 2. Big al - for what boils down to: trying to jumpstart the game, posting less often (being late to pointing out suspicious things), and a making a lame WIFOM statement.
Vote 3. Cym - for not sharing his reads.

The first three I'm generally ok with.

Vote 4. Grimm - not 12 hours after his vote for cym, he FoS's Grimm and then posts a case against him. Cym hadn't posted at all in this time, though I would say both bigAl and myself expressed low concern about him during this time. Grimm had only posted one significant post during this time also (162), but all the sudden VE is all over his business.
Vote 5. Unvote - this is what really piqued my interest. As I mentioned above... it's barely been 24 hours and already he's abandoning ship in what's been pretty much the only real case against someone so far. He keeps wanting everyone to post up more, and he's essentially stifling that now by unvoting.

[Grimmjow]

Wow, uhm, yeah. I think my brain just died a bit after reading VE's last post. So I'm definitely keeping my vote there. Also, because, as Workdawg stated (which I had completely missed):

(In fact, I wonder if post 83 was him trying to make sure his scum-buddy zihark wasn't lynched too early)

Good catch, WD.

[bigAl]

I would disagree with WD's vote hopping accusations. (Not disagreeing with the fact that VE's changed votes a lot but I am disagreeing with the fact that that is a bad thing.) In most (all?) cases, the vote was justified and backed by reasonable reasoning. People have different playstyles. (I, for example, tend to express my suspicions with words and don't change votes a lot.) Others do. If anything, it shows that VE is not afraid to defend his beliefs.

(In fact, I wonder if post 83 was him trying to make sure his scum-buddy zihark wasn't lynched too early)

I just want to point out that I said pretty much the same thing as VE in #91 and then Grimmjow(!) says it also in #100. But just above, he calls it a good catch. WTF? This doesn't make any sense to me.

I think it's time to
UNVOTE: cy, VOTE: Grimmjow
and see where this leads. Don't want a lynch yet, just want to start to push that direction.

[VisceraEyes]

@Workdawg
Well, good luck hunting scum with Mr. Everything-is-Bullshit-and-Everyone-Is-Stupid-But-Me.

I'm keeping my eyes open for slips, but as I stated earlier, I'm done scum-hunting today. I fully intend to vote with town, just so there are no surprises. Unless everyone just wants to vote for me...then I'll keep my vote on NL and wish you all good luck.

[bigAl]

Today meaning June 16th or today meaning Day 1 of our mafia game?

[VisceraEyes]

Day 1. My efforts are netting town nothing at this point. I'm going to vote for whomever the rest of town decides is the best candidate. I hope it's at least an inactive, but if the town decides that my efforts in scumhunting, encouraging discussion, using REASON to back up my statements and keeping an open mind should be considered scummy, then Mafia has ALREADY won. If I survive tonight, I'm perfectly willing to try again tomorrow.

I'd like to point out that if I'm wrong about something, that would NOT make me scum. Being Mafia would make me scum. Being wrong just makes me wrong. If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. Don't make fun of me. Don't poke fun at my posts because I took time and effort to make them pretty. I think it's funny how when I pointed out that Grimm was being a condescending jerk, he IMMEDIATELY apologizes when no one is on his side...but the very SECOND someone else calls me to the stand, it's back to 'Oh man, what an idiot.'

Typically shit like this doesn't bother me, but I feel like I've been playing the best town game of my LIFE. Clearly I'm missing something.

[Grimmjow]

I just want to point out that I said pretty much the same thing as VE in #91 and then Grimmjow(!) says it also in #100. But just above, he calls it a good catch. WTF? This doesn't make any sense to me.

Where exactly did VE and I both say that VE was potentially SPECIFICALLY defending Zihark? That's what I was saying was a good catch. Not the lurker point, but the specific instance of

PLEASE DO NOT PUT ANY MORE PRESSURE VOTES ON ZIHARK UNTIL HE POSTS SOME MORE!

. THAT is what I was saying was a good catch.

Day 1. My efforts are netting town nothing at this point. I'm going to vote for whomever the rest of town decides is the best candidate.

Is this not a scum tactic in some games? Vote with the town in hopes the town votes for a townie?

I hope it's at least an inactive, but if the town decides that my efforts in scumhunting, encouraging discussion, using REASON to back up my statements and keeping an open mind should be considered scummy, then Mafia has ALREADY won.

Uhm, just because YOU specifically are considered scummy (and I think you are scum), does not mean that mafia has won. That too sounds like a scummy statement. Kind of a "Hey, I'm working my ass of for the town, don't be mad at me if scum wins" type statement.

If I survive tonight, I'm perfectly willing to try again tomorrow.

So you're assuming immediately that you'll survive the Day?

I think it's funny how when I pointed out that Grimm was being a condescending jerk, he IMMEDIATELY apologizes when no one is on his side

Whoa whoa whoa. I didn't apologize because no one was on my side. I apologized because you were right; I was being an asshole and that's wrong.

...but the very SECOND someone else calls me to the stand, it's back to 'Oh man, what an idiot.'

And where exactly did I switch from "I'm sorry, you're right, I shouldn't be a jackass" to "You're an idiot"? I have tried not to make any more condescending statements since that time. If you are referring to:

I think my brain just died a bit after reading VE's last post.

what I was saying there is that I was completely taken aback from you being all on my case and voting for me (which is fine), and then suddenly doing a 180 without any real provocation, especially since I had turned around and apologized to you, and after such a short amount of time from you posting your case against me.

[VisceraEyes]

I'm not arguing with you anymore Grimm. And I'm certainly not doing anymore quote-walls this day. I've already seen what that gets me.

[Grimmjow]

Look, I'm not saying argue with me. What I am saying is that basically throwing your hands up in the air gets the town and this game nowhere. So how about we not argue and instead we actually just try to play the game?

Now, that being said, I'd like to point out, once again, that several people are still inactive, and this isn't getting us anywhere. Assuming that the 4 or 5 of us that are being active are town, that means we're essentially turning on one another while scum sits back. I'm keeping my vote on VE, but let's keep an eye out as well. Also, I'm interested to know what the replacement is going to say.

[Workdawg]

@VE

Your post 193 reeks of scum to me. It's certainly possible that you're just fed up with scum hunting after 48 hours and not having getting a positive reaction from the rest of us... but come on now. Throwing a tantrum isn't helping anyone.

As Grimm pointed out, "I'm just going to vote town and hope for the best" is a glorious copout and is EASILY the scummiest thing I've seen so far in this game. It let's you actively lurk (scummy) by saying "I'm done scum hunting" and then if we lynch town, you can try and avoid accountability by saying you were just following the rest of us.

There's also the appeal to emotion you're playing up... but I'm not really convinced that's a scumtell by itself. Combined with the above, I'll call it that in this case though.

FWIW... my initial case on you was extremely weak, but I was looking to put you under a little bit of pressure and see the reaction. You've only made my case against you stronger.

[VisceraEyes]

Actually, no. I've changed my mind. I'm going to keep scumhunting until I DIE if that's what it takes. But I'm not going to answer ANY of Grimm's accusations that I consider to be any of the following: WIFOM, OMGUS, baseless or just wrong...as I consider him to be scummy. If anyone else agrees with any of his pseudo-points against me, feel free to restate them...but I'll address the points I feel are valid.

Spoiler: Workdawg's Points

@VE

Post 180 you say "I'm comfortable with where my vote is."

Post 184, not 3 hours later, you unvote and follow up with what appears to be a hissy fit about how no one commented about your case. Certainly there is a lack of activity around here, and that's no good, but what changed in those 3 hours? It hadn't even been posted for 24 hours and you've already backed down? It took me a long time to get used to the idea of days lasting WEEKS around here, but you've got understand that not everyone is going to be able to check the site every day; or even every couple days. It's even worse for someone who's super active, like you are.

Okay, first of all, you're right. I threw a hissy fit about how no one commented on my case. There's a reason. The Mafia games I'm used to follow a 48/hr day cycle, 24/hr night cycle. I had NO IDEA signing up for this site that the newbie games would move at SUCH A SLOW PACE. Even reading it I thought in the back of my head 'Huh, well surely we can find someone scummy enough to lynch within 48-72 hours anyway, regardless of our upper-limit..right? Right?' What is it, THREE WEEKS day cycle? It's just not moving fast enough for my taste, and that's no one's fault but my own for overestimating my patience.

Between the you and Grimm, you posted 3 pretty big walls. It's a lot to read, as bigAl pointed out. It's taken me a few rereads and I still don't really have my head around all of it.


VOTE: VE

: (

For a handful of posts that come across as "too town" to me. WE NEED MOAR ACTIVITY! DON'T PUT ANYONE AT L-2! etc. It looks like he's just trying to earn some town cred to me.

I dislike the phrase "Too Town"...I play balls-to-the-wall, every game. "Too Town" implies that one should watch what they say, because doing something TOO helpful for town could cast a scummy light. People shouldn't be AFRAID to act the way they're expected to act, and I'm certainly not going to be because YOU think I'm playing "too town".

(In fact, I wonder if post 83 was him trying to make sure his scum-buddy zihark wasn't lynched too early)

Think logically. What would I have to gain from A) drawing attention to his inactivity and B) voting for him if I were his scum-buddy?

And for flopping around on his votes

Vote 1. Pressure vote on zihark because he hasn't posted much.
Vote 2. Big al - for what boils down to: trying to jumpstart the game, posting less often (being late to pointing out suspicious things), and a making a lame WIFOM statement.
Vote 3. Cym - for not sharing his reads.

The first three I'm generally ok with.

Vote 4. Grimm - not 12 hours after his vote for cym, he FoS's Grimm and then posts a case against him. Cym hadn't posted at all in this time, though I would say both bigAl and myself expressed low concern about him during this time. Grimm had only posted one significant post during this time also (162), but all the sudden VE is all over his business.

This is explained easily. In his ONE post you reference, he makes mention of MULTIPLE mistakes/misrepresentations/oversights/whatever (:P)...this instantly put him on my scumdar as I try to make it a point to be very clear and mistake free. I HAD made a mistake, but it was clarified by Miss JJ and it was absolutely resolved. Except that Grimmjow didn't think so, for whatever reason. When I asked him to clarify, he didn't do it satisfactorily and I pounced. Again, this is probably a direct result of playing somewhere where the games are MUCH faster paced...but I digress.

Vote 5. Unvote - this is what really piqued my interest. As I mentioned above... it's barely been 24 hours and already he's abandoning ship in what's been pretty much the only real case against someone so far. He keeps wanting everyone to post up more, and he's essentially stifling that now by unvoting.

Yeah, I threw a tantrum. We covered this. My bad. It won't happen again.

My thoughts are in

BOLD

Apparently I wasn't fast enough...Workdawg, hopefully this is slightly redeeming. If not, we'll just have to see what pans out in the near future.