Newbie 1117(Town Wins)

[ToastyToast]

mkay so I'm just going to respond to the points one at a time. Muffin's case reads as town, but many of the points are stuff I simply need to clarify.

Point 1: IIoA

Up to page 4, all of Toasty's post are IIoA (information instead of analysis). There's really no scum hunting whatsoever, and he's just coasting along posting what is essentially fluff. IIoA isn't a bad thing in newbie games (it is a learning experience, after all), but in combination with the fact he's doing no scum hunting, it's a scummy way to coast through the game.

1) I will certainly admit that I was letting the game move on its own for the first few pages. I wanted to see where the bbmolla-randomguy argument would lead, and I ultimately came to the decision that it was town on town. Redcolbalt's post stuck out (and still does) for the reasons I pointed out. bv asked me to scumhunt, so I told him exactly what was on my mind.

2)

@Toasty: I believe you still have a random vote on. What are your reads so far?

I will be making a list today

, but I think random-BB is town on town

Yes, I'm totes not scumhunting. Even quakerz is doing a better job at that!

Did EVERYONE misunderstand this? It was a STFU, I'm workin' on it, post.

3)Here's some points in which I was scumhunting.

What do you suggest is done?

Checking to see if bbmolla was just making a newb mistake

@Bo: would your reaction be any different if he just didn't answer the questions?

Bo was very much a null read. I was reaction fishing.I thought Bo was just hopping on the wagon with poor reasoning.

This is a scummier statement. What do you suggest is done on d1, if there is no scum-hunting? A no lynch? Having no opinions on people is generally very bad town-play, especially if you don't take a stance on anyone.

self-explanatory

@RandomGuy: Do you find bv's more subtle dislike of the questions to be suspicious? BB basicaly said he's only answering the questions so he doesn't look scummy, but Bv said he doesn't see a purpose and answers them anyway.

Checking the reasoning behind choosing to argue w/ BB, but completely ignoring Bv (in all his posts)

@everyone else: say more so I can start to for a read on you

Oh, look. I mentioned wanting ppl to say more so I can scumhunt more thoroughly/compare with my rankings of other players.

3)This is my first game as SE. My next newbie, I'll probably be an IC. So, yeah, I'm here to teach--its why I joined the game. Sorry if I'm getting a little to excited about it, but it is what it is.

Point 2: the colbalt case

Secondly, srg did indeed say he would manipulate other players in #27, so there is no 'misrep' by RC here.

Absolutely,

although i've no need to in this game due to my alignment

. i wont state 'i am town' though since such is a redundant statement that everyone here will make for obvious reasons.

yeah, he said he would manipulate other players, but has no need to in this game. Thats a big difference. Colbalt singles this out and changes it. randomguys response to his question was an honest one, free of manipulation. he's not trying to fool anyone and says, "yeah, of course I would manipulate players. Just not in this game, thats a job for the scum."

So it is a misrep--he makes it seem like randomguy said he could be manipulating everyone right now.

This isn't even a reason to suspect someone... It's not scummy. He's suspicious of srg for particular reasons, he's suspicious of BB for particular reason. Where is the scumminess here?

Oh, yes it is. He's appealing to both sides of the argument. As such, if one gets lynched, he has the opportunity to say: "well, I thought the other was scummy. So lets lynch him now."
I asked him if he thought bb and srg were scum together. This idea was largely rhetorical, because I don't believe/see that at all. As such, the other option is that one is scum and the other isn't. This leads to chaining lynches, which is VERY scummy.

Are you suggesting RC is scummy because his reasons for thinking BB is scummy are weak? I personally didn't like RC's vote on BB either, but this didn't come off as scum-looking-for-something-to-call-scummy, I read it as him genuinely thinking BB is scummy.

Yes. He had stronger reasons to vote srg, but votes the person with the larger wagon. What's the scum motivaion behind that? lol, do I even have to say? Getting an srg lynch is going to be much harder because BBmolla (sorry) has the weaker argument. Also, BBmolla has significantly more suspicion on him.

I don't think he was trying to convince anyone with that line, and gut is a pretty valid reason for thinking someone is scum. It's not a valid reason if you can't explain why you have a gut feeling about someone, and it's probably not going to convince anyone else to vote with you, but that's beside the point.

Gut isn't about "explanations" at all. I don't condone his use of gut, I acknowledged the fact that if gut is his most valid reason for voting BBmolla, then he should be voting for someone else. Gut is never a convincing argument because you can't properly explain that feeling you get with anything other than "I had a feeling." In other words, its not a case.

[bvoigt]

I asked him if he thought bb and srg were scum together. This idea was largely rhetorical, because I don't believe/see that at all. As such, the other option is that one is scum and the other isn't. This leads to chaining lynches, which is VERY scummy.

Why couldn't they be a scumteam? SRG has voiced suspicions of BB, but his vote is still on Quackerz. Other than that point, I have a town read on SRG; however, if BB flips scum, I'll be looking carefully at their interactions.

[SomeRandomGuy]

I asked him if he thought bb and srg were scum together. This idea was largely rhetorical, because I don't believe/see that at all. As such, the other option is that one is scum and the other isn't. This leads to chaining lynches, which is VERY scummy.

Why couldn't they be a scumteam? SRG has voiced suspicions of BB, but his vote is still on Quackerz. Other than that point, I have a town read on SRG; however, if BB flips scum, I'll be looking carefully at their interactions.

I have to say on this point that it would be quite a nice gambit to make coming straight out of the gate and scum on scum argument going hard at each other, by the end of the day it would quite easily be forgotten especially with 3 week long days (i'm used to 1 or 2 week games where such would be just a little harder.) Personally, i'd expect that if either me or BB were to flip scum that the other one would be looked at and equally if either of us flipped town. I can only say though that if he were to die and flip either way it'd be pretty fruitless.

Toasty, I had noticed your soft questioning, getting some view points and such but pushing hard isn't something i've saw from you and up until now, i'm not sure bv has done much of it either. Muffin has come into the game and right off the bat is pressing people for answers, Bo left him with a pretty clean slate to do so though and so it's something to be a little wary of, but either way it has gotten the game flowing again and he seems as trustworthy as anyone in the game right now.

My suspicions on BB still exist, however the more I see from him the more his points do seem genuine. some stuff seems to be mistakes and / or lack of knowledge. My suspicion remains to an extent and i'm keeping my eye on him but right now, i don't feel the need to replace my vote on him at the moment.

sorry, internet connection is iffy and school in the mornings, havent been on a lot.

Anyways, agreeing on TT but who knows if what Quackerz could be.
Maybe lurking as mafia...

This doesn't sit well with me, you get chance to vote, pop in to say you agree on TT but have no idea on Quackerz (due to lack of posting) and even suggest he could be lurking as mafia - my response to this is: Pot - Kettle - Black... You've added very little thus far and whilst you may be having issues it seems that you've had chance to get in here and post and added nothing of substance AND point to the only one person less active than you - the last thing you should be pushing right now is 'the lurker may be mafia!'. Next time you get chance to come in, take a look at things properly and give reasons, please

Being the only one i've had any true suspicion of BB is still the one in my mind who seems scummiest but as i say, he has managed to be less of a suspect than previously, I'm going to have a look through properly tomorrow (i know i promised today but haven't had much chance). I'm going to reread the whole game and see where that leaves me.

[drmyshottyizsik]

.|Vote count 3|.

Haze-0
BBmolla-1(bvoigt)
Redcolbalt-2(ToastyToast, BBmolla)

L-3

SomeRandomGuy-1(zMuffinManw)
kad2361-0
Quackerz-1(SomeRandomGuy)
ToastyToast-0
zMuffinMan-0
bvoigt-0

Not Voting-4(Haze, Kad2361, Quackerz, Redcolbalt)

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch

If there are any problems tell me.

[BBmolla]

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

[SomeRandomGuy]

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

I state that im finding you a little more trustworthy and you go and post this - just because other people don't agree with your reads doesn't mean they're 'whack' - if you can put reasons to them and explain them it's not scummy. My read on you also seems to not be the general consensus but it's valid.

Admitting you can't specifically state why you voted RedCobalt is a little suspect.

[BBmolla]

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

I state that im finding you a little more trustworthy and you go and post this - just because other people don't agree with your reads doesn't mean they're 'whack' - if you can put reasons to them and explain them it's not scummy. My read on you also seems to not be the general consensus but it's valid.

Admitting you can't specifically state why you voted RedCobalt is a little suspect.

I think the funniest part is that I was going to add that I stopped posting because whenever I posted it seemed to hurt me more than harm me but I didn't because I thought I'd get call scummy for saying it.

I voted for RedCobalt because of Toast's reasonings seeming to make sense, even though I didn't analyze them completely.

[Haze]

Wait, BB, so your ridding yourself of any responsibility if RC gets lynched and turns out to be townie?

I dunno about you but I tend to read someone's argument, and go back and see if I come to the same conclusion before I do something as important as vote rather than simply wagon, right?

Just some Q's

RC:
In 75, what do you mean by backup plan? I see no correlation between manipulation and the said backup. Just a confusing point I still don't get.
In 149, you say you don't see you being wishy-washy, but aren't you kinda taking both sides of the argument for SRG? Why do you deny this?

Muffin:

It's not as simple as just "agreement".

He's noticing most of the same things I noticed on reading through, and interpreting them the same way I interpreted them. I was able to follow his thought process because it matched mine.

I still don't see how you came to the conclusion: "Since he had the exact same thought process as me, he can't be scum"
Scum can still build a perfectly logical case of mislynch based on errors by a townie and you'd probably be able to follow perfectly and come to the same conclusion (say)

BV also used the exact same thought process to clear Muffin off as town somehwere, I think post 139.

Can you guys please tell me why?

[drmyshottyizsik]

verydark replace quackerz

[verydark]

Hey everyone, just confirming I'm here. I'll read through the game an post later today.

[zMuffinMan]

I still don't see how you came to the conclusion: "Since he had the exact same thought process as me, he can't be scum"

It's not that he can't be scum. It's that I'm reading him as town, and I don't think he is scum.

And this is a legitimate reason to believe someone is town. If someone is town, I can generally follow their thought process from start to finish - I can understand where they got their reads and why, and understand how it makes sense from their perspective as town. This is the essence of scum hunting, and this is how you find scum as well - looking at things that really don't make sense from the perspective of thinking like a town player.

But whatever, I'm exhausted and will get to properly posting tomorrow. This might not even have really made any sense.

[bvoigt]

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

I think the funniest part is that I was going to add that I stopped posting because whenever I posted it seemed to hurt me more than harm me but I didn't because I thought I'd get call scummy for saying it.

I voted for RedCobalt because of Toast's reasonings seeming to make sense, even though I didn't analyze them completely.

I don't like either of these posts. What's your concern with having different reads from other players? And how do the two bolded lines match up? Also, "I thought I'd get called scummy" continues to show a survival-oriented motivation.

@Haze: Pretty much what Muffin said. Since he's coming to the same conclusions as me, he probably has the same perspective and motivations.

[ToastyToast]

I asked him if he thought bb and srg were scum together. This idea was largely rhetorical, because I don't believe/see that at all. As such, the other option is that one is scum and the other isn't. This leads to chaining lynches, which is VERY scummy.

Why couldn't they be a scumteam? SRG has voiced suspicions of BB, but his vote is still on Quackerz. Other than that point, I have a town read on SRG; however, if BB flips scum, I'll be looking carefully at their interactions.

Taking that vote of was a pro-town move. SRG didn't want a lynch to happen that quickly. If I saw that the day was quickly turning into a "tunnel the newbie" day, I would have taken my vote of, too.

[bvoigt]

Were we really in danger of a quicklynch?

[kad2361]

My original suspicions on BBmolla are confirmed with this post:

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

No one else has too much scummy activity so

Vote: BBmolla

(btw, new internet connection )

[SomeRandomGuy]

My original suspicions on BBmolla are confirmed with this post:

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

No one else has too much scummy activity so

Vote: BBmolla

(btw, new internet connection )

Please see post #152 and respond.

[SomeRandomGuy]

You may have noticed a significant downturn in posts from me, mainly because I'm busy working.

My reads are completely opposite of everyones which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Because I can't specifically state why in the first place.

I'm following the game, I just don't have much to contribute as my scum reads are absolutely whack.

I state that im finding you a little more trustworthy and you go and post this - just because other people don't agree with your reads doesn't mean they're 'whack' - if you can put reasons to them and explain them it's not scummy. My read on you also seems to not be the general consensus but it's valid.

Admitting you can't specifically state why you voted RedCobalt is a little suspect.

I think the funniest part is that I was going to add that I stopped posting because whenever I posted it seemed to hurt me more than harm me but I didn't because I thought I'd get call scummy for saying it.

I voted for RedCobalt because of Toast's reasonings seeming to make sense, even though I didn't analyze them completely.

It wouldn't have looked great, no. However I must say your 'slips' have been so frequent and despite my bringing you up on a lot of points you've continued your posting regardless of that. The reason that your saying 'I stopped posting to not keep having this happen' would have looked scummy is because more than anything else it is your continued presence regardless of suspicion and the rate in which you answer questions which makes you seem less and less guilty as time goes by for me.

Right now suspect wise for me:

Kad - It's the fact he said Quackerz might be scum lurking, yet despite the reasons he's given for lack of posting when he has managed to get online it's nothing of substance.

His posts summed up:

1. /confirm
2. Votes BB
3. trying to see if mafia will hammer. If they dont, very high FoS on BBmolla
4. Says he thought more people had votes on BB thus his last post
5. Unvotes
6. appologises for entrance to the game, it's his first game Agrees with toasty on red still suspects BB
7. Apologised for not being active then: 'Anyways, agreeing on TT but who knows if what Quackerz could be.
Maybe lurking as mafia...'
8. His suspicion on BB is confimed by BB's latest post.

Now, let me go into this:
So first off he votes BB, fair enough except there wasn't a reason, he claims it was to see if scum hammered him (despite being no where close to hammerable) and if not a big FoS on BB - Scum wouldn't hammer that anyway, too close to the start of the day, too suspicious. Anyway he says he thought more people were on the wagon, then he unvotes BB in his next post. He agrees with toasty's argument against Red but still suspects BB. then he comes in and 'agrees on TT' - Why? A second ago he was just following TT's case on red and mentioned quackerz as a possible lurky scum (pot - kettle - black). Now his suspicion is confirmed by BB's latest vote? Oh please, there was nothing more in that than any of his others.
Essentially, he seems to be agreeing with what ever case has the most backing at the time of his post, BB takes a background role as the suspicion switches and goes right back when myself and red(?) mention BB's latest post.

He's done absolutely no scum hunting, has given us nothing but the names of people he suspects except for one time, which was his thoughts on Quackerz AND the 'if scum don't hammer very big fos' is scummy as hell, suggesting somebody can be proven guilty simply based on the fact others didn't hammer? bleh.

Unvote
Vote: Kad

Btw, just realised i can view only one persons posts in the game at a time (the other place i play doesn't have this - quite handy i'll be going back and looking at just about everyone i think).

[BBmolla]

I don't like either of these posts.

k

What's your concern with having different reads from other players?

Should two townies really get different reads most of the time? Just seems a bit odd.

And how do the two bolded lines match up?

They don't. My reasoning wasn't very well thought out so I didn't really have a true reason to vote him.

Also, "I thought I'd get called scummy" continues to show a survival-oriented motivation.

Cool.

[Haze]

BB...whatever you do seems to just produce the opposite effect.

Please return to your usual playstyle rather than these one word answers...

[verydark]

Alright, I've had to reread the game 5 times just to make sure I'm getting everyone's reads correct, it's easy to get lost when you haven't been posting the whole time.

I see that we've moved past RVS, so I will cast my vote on my biggest scum read, and allow everyone to refute or affirm my suspicions.

VOTE: BBmolla

...and here's why.

It's just different, I'll go with it, but don't expect me to lead any lynches d1.

This seems like a way to make yourself look noble, trying to save the townies, but I've seen this used many times in mafia as a way to divert attention from being scum.

Gonna wait for more posts. Don't hammer on me if it comes to it.

A wagon was forming so I figured I'd throw it out there. I don't see why that's such a big deal. If I don't get the hammer there is always the chance I can't make it one day and then bam I come home and I'm lynched.

Gonna throw this out there real quick, that I think some of the scumtells you guys are getting on me is pretty bogus. I might as well lurk because every time I talk it's a scum tell in some way or another.

These all demonstrate a fear of being discovered, and subsequently lynched. Townies generally don't fear being lynched, because they have nothing to hide. Townies DO, however, offer a defense or clarify their actions.

My paranoia regarding the lynch is because I'm used to faster bandwagons. Most of the scumtells I'm showing are just dumbtells cause I'm not sure how forum mafia works when compared to other forms. A lot more reading in between the lines I suppose.

Possibly. I've played some fast paced Mafia games and I too have seen faster bandwagons, and dumbtells are a way to get you riled up and talking. This is the only redeeming post I've seen which makes me briefly think noob versus scum...but again, i've seen similar tactics used to distract the players.

but then, you go on to....

For now I will FoS Kad who has slipped under the radar of all reads thus far.

You offer no explanation for this other than he's lurking. But then, only a few hours later

AFTER a vote count was posted by the mod

, you wildly change your suspicions.

I'm going to agree with this lynch unless anyone has any huge objections. If you do, please speak up.

Vote:Redcolbalt

You cast this vote providing little information as to why. I find it interesting that Redcobalt had the most votes at this point, easy way to try to jump on and further the bandwagon to get attention off yourself.

My reads are completely opposite of everyone's which is a bit frightening. For now, I'll

Unvote:RedCobalt

Then you unvote, claiming your reads are opposite of everyone's, however I really don't see any commitment to any of your reads at all.

This all seems like a way to misdirect and divert attention from yourself while also occasionally claiming the noob card, or the "i don't understand the game" card. Yet you're an experienced player on epicmafia.

Very scummy, and my vote stays here for now.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Nice case there Verydark, i know i've been pretty much on his case since the game began but that's nicely laid out all in one which is good.

BB - Your latest response is just mind boggling, how you thought 'k' and 'cool' as responses would help in any way is beyond me and this after i had just mentioned it was your willingness to respond (properly) that was your saving grace thus far, you completely went against that. Your comment about saying that every time you post you only make things worse for yourself whilst you didn't make it you mentioned it and again, it's the survival instinct that verydark mentioned and has been pointed out before.

I'm really not sure whether you're dumb town or scum :/

[bvoigt]

My original suspicions on BBmolla are confirmed with this post: (snip)

What about his post makes you suspicious?

What's your concern with having different reads from other players?

Should two townies really get different reads most of the time? Just seems a bit odd.

Before I respond to this, one question: what players, exactly, have different reads from you?

And how do the two bolded lines match up?

They don't. My reasoning wasn't very well thought out so I didn't really have a true reason to vote him.

Well, it seems like a contradiction to me...first saying "I can't specifically state why," then saying, "I voted for RedCobalt because of Toast's reasonings."

Also, "I thought I'd get called scummy" continues to show a survival-oriented motivation.

Cool.

Do you have a response to this point? I think it's legitimate.

[bvoigt]

@SRG: I see where you're coming from; however, Kad looks town to me. His posts would definitely be scummy for someone with more experience, but I see them as newbie-tells. Also, the "trying to see if mafia will hammer" thing from ISO #2 doesn't seem like something he would fake as scum.

[zMuffinMan]

To-do list -

1) Respond to Toasty
2) Read BB in ISO

Can people, in their next post, say whether they think Toast is scum/town and why?

I want to put some real effort into my next post, and it's 4:20am, so I think it's best if I wait until after some sleep to do it.

[bvoigt]

I'm thinking Toast is scum, for the reasons I explained in previous posts.