New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[Pine]

If Toon is a vig, then blocking him was a mistake, period. If he's SK, blocking him was STILL probably a mistake, as he says he was gunning for you, Max. quadz PMed me just before deadline asking who to block, and I didn't consider the full ramifications of blocking my SK-suspect.

[nhammen]

Also @nham: I'm more concerned with SK right now because the SK is basically a scumteam of one, whereas the Mafia is a team of 2 (maybe but not likely 3). Eliminating one of the night kills is simpler if you pursue the single-member faction.

I'm actually toying with writing up an article on MD about the benefits of hunting SKs right from the start alongside the Mafia. They should be treated as one-member scumteams, not as Townally-until-proven-otherwise. Thinking about this lately has made me paranoid about vig claims.

Except that many games do not contain an SK. So hunting for an SK in these games is counter-productive. Additionally, looking at people that are hunting for SKs is a great way to catch scum. That is what caused me to become suspicious of you and Zepher (well, I was suspicious of Zepher on Day 1, but his play had been improving). We shall see how well this pans out.

Ah, right.
It was in line with the idea that Pine could have been bussing DK, in which case I find it more likely that he's a JK as apposed to an RB.
(I thought immediately after reading his claim that it wouldn't be difficult for a scum JK to claim RB.)
Honestly I don't think I've ever seen a town jk, or a scum rb.

Scum RB occurs very frequently. As for you immediately suspecting that it wouldn't be difficult for a JK to claim RB, was this mainly because of DK's claim, or something else?

This coupled with the lack of a vig kill, but that's just what my mind went to first.

What does the lack of a vig kill have to do with it? That has already been explained.

I think all efforts aimed at finding the SK should have been vanquished after Mastin flipped town.
If Toon was the SK, he would have been smarter than to claim Vig, as now we have an eye on his kills.
(I.E. he just reduced his chances for winning as SK by a good margin)

I think all efforts at finding SK shouldn't have even appeared like this. Its poor play all around.

I've seen both Town JK and scum RB. Both recently.

In [REDACTED], that we're both involved with, there was a Town JK.

Unvote

Vote: Zepher

Apparent contradictions and scrambling to fix the mistake.

Doesn't make sense as an intentional lie, especially given that the two of you are apparently in the same game together.

somebody else also hasn't had any decent pressure on him all game... it's nobody special... but i think he's the special one for today!

Yeah, hes one of my suspects as well. Mainly for having practically no useful content.

I usually keep ongoing games off my mind so I don't accidentally use them as evidence.
I won't use it as justification for anything until the game is over, and you'd be wise to do the same.
As such, that point becomes instantly invalid as soon as it was made.

... I don't know what to say about this. On the one hand, adherence to the site rules is noble and all. But on the other, you just said that you can ignore some cases just because the evidence comes from a certain source. I do not like that defence at all.

I still don't see the case on maxous... then again i've succesfully led one lynch so far on a townie and missed those other two lynches of scum, so I may very well be (and probably am) a raving blind idiot.

-Zeph
can you post a nice detailed case on mazous if you don't mind?

No, I agree. I can see a bit of a case, but Maxous has been very protown all game, and I don't see him as scum.

what do you guys think of a massclaim now? Who hasn't claimed yet?

Looking at the list, I believe that it is me, NS, and Zepher that have not claimed.

Yeah..remember Nobody Special is the (likely)cop clear.

Oh right. But he has been playing terribly. Hmmm... how much does this possibility of him being the cop investigation give us? I don't think it counteracts the absolute lack of anything that we have seen from him.

Yeah..remember Nobody Special is the (likely)cop clear.

Could you explain this to me a bit? I think I missed something.

KoC investigated someone night 1. We don't know who. But he did give a comment defending NS that some people have taken to be a breadcrumb of this investigation. It is not a sure thing. And I have become leery of giving him a free pass because of this possibility.

@ NobodySpecial and Nhammen
What are your reads and why.

silverbullet999 - scumread, but is improving. The votepost earlier did not help.
Pine - was a townread until all of the SK hunting. Now is scummy. RB on what is most likely a town vig is bad. Really bad.
MrZepher - Scumread. After seeing his play improve on D1, he fell most of the way off of my scummeter, but he returned upon a D3 reread of DK followed by him starting this whole SK hunting thing.
Nobody Special - Massive scumread if we ignore the possibility of KoC's investigation. I think I have to stop giving him a pass, and act on this.
Uite - Slightly scummy, but less so than any of my other scumreads. Very little useful has come out of him, but I do remember him at least posting some content, unlike NS, so possibly lazy town rather than scum.
Toon Fighter - Has been obvtown all game. I think I may have had some short lived suspicion at some point, but it wore off quickly.
Maxous - Probtown. I can see the case on him, but do not agree.

OK, 4 out of 7 are scumreads... this is not the situation I want to be in.

Gaah,
Earlier in the day Pine said he did'nt beleive Toon's vig claim and he is scum. He then went to 'perhaps it was the wrong choice'. It's not the wrong choice if you beleive he is scum. And you either beleive the claim or not. Or at least show a reason why you changed your mind.(he did'nt)
He votes me saying he is just as certain of me being scum as Toon. So he is 'certain' that Toon is indeed a SK scum and his higher priority is finding the SK but he is voting for who he thinks is mafia.
Silver says his explanation is bad. Pine says it is because he made a simple mistake. But now it is not truly a mistake as he still thinks Toon is a SK.


Confused? Because I am.
He seems to be just answering the questions while not keeping the same thought process. His posts are not consistent with him beleiving Toon to be a SK and wheter or not he made a mistake blocking him.

Yeah, it seems very... disjointed I guess would be the correct term.

Oh and no-one seemed to of gotten my hint earlier. Who was the last person Toon voted before he hammered Mastin? Pine.
If Pine is mafia he had every reason to roleblock Toon. (he would'nt of risked Toon shooting him)

Very true.

Max, my confused actions stem from the fact that I had such a solid SK-in-vig-clothing read on Toon at the beginning of the day, and not only does no one believe me, I'm getting a lot of flak for it.

Wait. Are you really saying that you backed down from your view because of all of the flak you were getting for it?

[nhammen]

I should probably include a vote there as well.
VOTE: Pine
This is L-2.
I could also very easily vote for NS.
Zepher would be 3rd and silver 4th, but at this point these two are distant from my top two.
I do not support the Maxous wagon at all.

[Pine]

The flak I got for blocking Toon was indeed a factor in my backing down. People disagreeing with me I'm apt to ignore. The majority of the thread vociferously disagreeing and attacking me for it...I do no good and can't redeem myself if I get lynched. Besides, that much opposition to my read on Toon can't possibly be all scum, so someone's made a serious error somewhere. Whether it's me or all of you has yet to be seen, but I'm not going to win you over just by sticking to my guns.

Vote for Zepher instead. Bad reaction to pressure is bad.

[quadz08]

The Votecount Which Fourth Occurs on Day the Fourth

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

silverbullet999 (0) –
nhammen (0) –

L-2 --->

Pine (3) – Toon Fighter, Maxous, Nhammen
MrZepher (1) – Pine
Nobody Special (2) – Uite, silverbullet999
Uite (0) -
Toon Fighter (0) –
Maxous (1) – MrZepher

Not Voting (1) – Nobody Special

Deadline is in (expired on 2011-06-26 02:00:00)

[MrZepher]

Vote for Zepher instead. Bad reaction to pressure is bad.

Mind explaining that a bit? I don't see how I reacted badly to anything you've said/done today.

Ummm lets see.... All these are Nhammen quotes

Except that many games do not contain an SK. So hunting for an SK in these games is counter-productive. Additionally, looking at people that are hunting for SKs is a great way to catch scum. That is what caused me to become suspicious of you and Zepher (well, I was suspicious of Zepher on Day 1, but his play had been improving). We shall see how well this pans out.

The only reason I was ever suspicious of an SK is because Mastin looked like scum, but didn't fit for him to be scum unless he was an SK. The lack of a vig claim up to that point made me wary of a third-party pretending to be town.
I think I may have admitted that the odds were low, but Mastin claiming vig seemed like an escape card.
I only went "SK hunting" because it seemed appropriate at the time. I can say now though that there's no reason to look for one now and I'm starting to hold Pine's pushing the subject against him.

Scum RB occurs very frequently. As for you immediately suspecting that it wouldn't be difficult for a JK to claim RB, was this mainly because of DK's claim, or something else?

I think all of that can be traced back to a lack of active experience in different setups, but we'll see. I don't want to seem like I'm trying to play the noob card, but it's relatively fact... Yes it may have stemmed from DK's claim though.

What does the lack of a vig kill have to do with it? That has already been explained.

Again, I just assume people lie and try to fill in the gaps to see what fits.
I don't use that as a primary way to scum hunt, but I use it to find appropriate ideas.

I think all efforts at finding SK shouldn't have even appeared like this. Its poor play all around.

As I said, I dropped the subject in my mind when Mastin flipped town.

... I don't know what to say about this. On the one hand, adherence to the site rules is noble and all. But on the other, you just said that you can ignore some cases just because the evidence comes from a certain source. I do not like that defence at all.

I have no way of knowing what other people say are coming from ongoing games.
I usually assume they're abiding by some sort of similar moral code or something. Not to be a white knight or anything lol.

Looking at the list, I believe that it is me, NS, and Zepher that have not claimed.

I've sort of claimed if you've read my posts day 3.

Oh right. But he has been playing terribly. Hmmm... how much does this possibility of him being the cop investigation give us? I don't think it counteracts the absolute lack of anything that we have seen from him.

I don't understand how the potential of him being a cop investigation makes him town.... I think it's null information.

KoC investigated someone night 1. We don't know who. But he did give a comment defending NS that some people have taken to be a breadcrumb of this investigation. It is not a sure thing. And I have become leery of giving him a free pass because of this possibility.

Oh. I'm not sure I want to trust information from a dead man. Like, not to be discrediting cop information, it's just given NS's current position, and his ISO being void of any useful content, lurking, and from what I've seen he's been pretty friendly to the scum suspicions thus far.

silverbullet999 - scumread, but is improving. The votepost earlier did not help.
Pine - was a townread until all of the SK hunting. Now is scummy. RB on what is most likely a town vig is bad. Really bad.
MrZepher - Scumread. After seeing his play improve on D1, he fell most of the way off of my scummeter, but he returned upon a D3 reread of DK followed by him starting this whole SK hunting thing.
Nobody Special - Massive scumread if we ignore the possibility of KoC's investigation. I think I have to stop giving him a pass, and act on this.
Uite - Slightly scummy, but less so than any of my other scumreads. Very little useful has come out of him, but I do remember him at least posting some content, unlike NS, so possibly lazy town rather than scum.
Toon Fighter - Has been obvtown all game. I think I may have had some short lived suspicion at some point, but it wore off quickly.
Maxous - Probtown. I can see the case on him, but do not agree.

OK, 4 out of 7 are scumreads... this is not the situation I want to be in.

This seems fair enough.
I would seriously rather lynch Maxous. My gut keeps telling me to pursue it.
NS would be my second choice for today as well.

[silverbullet999]

-Zepher
Thank you for the case and I do agree with the reasoning.
-----------

Post 1087 also rubs me the wrong way. There is absolutely no reason to clear Nobody Special. "Because the cop "hinted" at it" doesn't cut it at all. He easily could have seen him as ObvTown just like Mastin with Toon.

I truly think Pine was just being an idiot (no offense), why would he counterclaim a fake claim by scum? What is the motivation behind that? Yes, I suppose he could have set it up to legitmately do that with his scum buddies I guess but I don't see that as making sense much at all.

I'd actually be happy with a maxous lynch or, even better a nobody special lynch since, literally he's contributed nothing and he mainly lurks like all hell when he's scum.

I'll keep my vote on NS but will be more than happy to switch between the two.

[Maxous]

If Toon is a vig, then blocking him was a mistake, period. If he's SK, blocking him was STILL probably a mistake, as he says he was gunning for you, Max. quadz PMed me just before deadline asking who to block, and I didn't consider the full ramifications of blocking my SK-suspect.

It's kinda my point..it was a mistake because he was'nt aiming for you like you suspected.

Like, not to be discrediting cop information, it's just given NS's current position, and his ISO being void of any useful content, lurking, and from what I've seen he's been pretty friendly to the scum suspicions thus far.

NS would be my second choice for today as well.

Why do you think NS is mafia anyway? I think I missed it.

Post 1087 also rubs me the wrong way. There is absolutely no reason to clear Nobody Special. "Because the cop "hinted" at it" doesn't cut it at all. He easily could have seen him as ObvTown just like Mastin with Toon.

No, KOC did not see NS as 'obvtown'.
And I would like to think KOC was good enough to breadcrumb his result in case he flipped.
In this post he particulary mentioned NS as town and nobody else. There was no need to address NS at all at this point, we were'nt talking about him.
And this happened to be the a player that was very lurky throughout Day 1 and would of been a very suitable cop investigation.

As for Pine i take that point and the counter-claim does look towny upon re-reading.

unvote

for now.
I feel I'm missing something here. Re-think required.

[MrZepher]

Why do you think NS is mafia anyway? I think I missed it.

Look at his ISO. Look at it. Obviously you haven't.

-Zepher
Thank you for the case and I do agree with the reasoning.
-----------

Post 1087 also rubs me the wrong way. There is absolutely no reason to clear Nobody Special. "Because the cop "hinted" at it" doesn't cut it at all. He easily could have seen him as ObvTown just like Mastin with Toon.

I truly think Pine was just being an idiot (no offense), why would he counterclaim a fake claim by scum? What is the motivation behind that? Yes, I suppose he could have set it up to legitmately do that with his scum buddies I guess but I don't see that as making sense much at all.

I'd actually be happy with a maxous lynch or, even better a nobody special lynch since, literally he's contributed nothing and he mainly lurks like all hell when he's scum.

I'll keep my vote on NS but will be more than happy to switch between the two.

SQUUUAAAAAAAAWWWWWWK. Parrots go squawk right?
(I'm just being a jerk here . There really isn't that much parroting.)

[Maxous]

Okay, but why only now? NS has been doing this the whole game.
Did you have suspicion on NS in the earlier day periods?

[MrZepher]

We've discussed suspicions of NS throughout the whole game...

I personally haven't done anything but mention him since I
1. Didn't pay attention to him until late day 3
2. Had people focused who had obtained more of my attention

[Toon Fighter]

I just ISO'd NS and I can totally see the case on him. Plus, his interactions with mastin/max may point to a Max/NS scum team.

unvote, vote: NS

The wagon on Pine is dying, and I prefer to have my vote on someone who is actually lynchable

[silverbullet999]

@mod: Can we get a prod of NS

[silverbullet999]

-Max

No, KOC did not see NS as 'obvtown'.
And I would like to think KOC was good enough to breadcrumb his result in case he flipped.
In this post he particulary mentioned NS as town and nobody else. There was no need to address NS at all at this point, we were'nt talking about him.
And this happened to be the a player that was very lurky throughout Day 1 and would of been a very suitable cop investigation.

Wishful thinking and a dangerous assumption.

-Zeph
Jerk

[Pine]

I just ISO'd NS and I can totally see the case on him. Plus, his interactions with mastin/max may point to a Max/NS scum team.

unvote, vote: NS

The wagon on Pine is dying, and I prefer to have my vote on someone who is actually lynchable

What happened to "I will only accept a Pine or Maxous lynch"? Maxous is definitely lynchable.

[MrZepher]

People's opinions change.

I came into the day thinking that I would only find a Maxous lynch acceptable.
I can accept an NS lynch as well.

[Maxous]

Mr. Zepher - how do you go from finding somebody to be likely scum on Day 1 to having a gut town read at the start of Day 4 when you are not paying attention to him?
Furthermore why did you have a gut town read on him at the start of Day 4 when you were paying attention to his posts late Day 3? - his ISO was exactly the same as it is now and it would'nt of taken that long to check.
Also, who is "we" in the "we've discussed suspicions of him throughout the game".

@Silver: Well yes, I guess I am wishfully thinking KOC was nice enough to breadcrumb as he should of.
@Toon: There is no NS/Max scumteam so you may forget that reasoning.

Anyway -

v/la until the 19'th

[Pine]

You see Zepherscum now, Maxscum?

Your bussing is appreciated.

[Toon Fighter]

@Toon: There is no NS/Max scumteam so you may forget that reasoning.

Anyway -

v/la until the 19'th

There may not be one, but I can't know that -.-

[Maxous]

Yeah, point taken Toon.

Pine's post made me laugh... a lot xD

Okay nooow I'm gone

[MrZepher]

Mr. Zepher - how do you go from finding somebody to be likely scum on Day 1 to having a gut town read at the start of Day 4 when you are not paying attention to him?
Furthermore why did you have a gut town read on him at the start of Day 4 when you were paying attention to his posts late Day 3? - his ISO was exactly the same as it is now and it would'nt of taken that long to check.
Also, who is "we" in the "we've discussed suspicions of him throughout the game".

I didn't start paying attention to his presence in game until late day 3. Read through his ISO day 4, and got a scum read.
I suppose saying it was a gut read was a bad way to go about it but oh well. I don't see how that changes anything.
We as in the town. It's been discussed that he's said nothing, I personally didn't pay any attention to it because I was preoccupied with you and Mastin.

Can somebody define to me what a strawman/strawmanning is?

@Pine
He can't be bussing me; for that to happen I would have to be scum.
He's looking for a myslynch most likely.

[Pine]

This fucking game

I just realized I have like, twice as many scumreads as we probably have scum.

[MrZepher]

Welcome to Mafia?

[silverbullet999]

^ lol ^

Nobodyyy....

Quadzzz where's my prod!! >:O

[quadz08]

NS and Uite have been prodded. Apologies for not catching that earlier.