Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[nintendoaddict1]

@ ace - It's not just about her reactions. Pay attention to what I've already said on this point. Let's debate theory later.

@ nintendo -

Vote for someone. If you aren't going to vote pine, fine, but you need to pick a target. Help us learn about a player in this thread by making them respond to something you are doing.

You're telling me to vote because you want me to? Shouldn't people vote when they feel it is necessary, for whatever purpose?

[archaebob]

How much more of a reaction did you want from her? Would each additional question posed to her at L-2 have had a more useful reaction? Did we need to go to L-1? You say you were scumhunting Jil but if your idea of scumhunting is tunneling on someone for 10 (you wanted more actually) pages, how are we going to scumhunt everyone?

The only reason it took that long is because you decided to fuck me up half way through it. We had Jil at L-2 several pages ago. If we had kept her there, and you had kept your mouth shut, who knows how many other people we would have gotten to by now.

You're telling me to vote because you want me to? Shouldn't people vote when they feel it is necessary, for whatever purpose?

Yes, they should. I'm not telling you to vote "because I want you to." I can't force you to do anything. I'm simply suggesting a purpose for your vote that would help town.

So why do you not

feel

it is

necessary

to vote for Pine?

[Giitah]

*Er, just slightly worried because I've already been referenced several times like this... but... I am a guy. Just saying. .___.

@Ace
Sadly enough, no, not really. I've played Mafia before here on this site but I left after playing a couple of games due to some complications and I made a new account recently. I've studied Mafia concepts (scumtells, towntells, etc.) a lot out of interest, but I have little experience playing.

@Hiplop
Do you have anything else to say in your own defense on my case against you? If you haven't noticed, I posted again on the topic at posts #218 and #219.

@Ace again
Really, I'll have to agree with Archaebob here - his case was based on feathers but it was a case presented in a pretty strong impression and may have gotten us a decent reaction call. As it is, what we got instead was a perfectly logical reaction rather than an emotionally charged defense, which may have given us indication of her alignment right there.

[Giitah]

Right -
@Deuxieme
Please don't go lurk, it's not helpful at all.

[nintendoaddict1]

So why do you not

feel

it is

necessary

to vote for Pine?

Like I said before, in a different game, Pine was very active as scum, making 105 posts, mostly on D1 before he was lynched. His tally of 9 posts up to this point makes me see TownPine.

[Pine]

I'm on V/LA, asshats. I have extremely limited access. My great aunt doesn't even own a computer, much less have wifi.

I'll try to get a more thorough read later (I've only skimmed) but my suspicion of archaebob has not abated one iota. I don't see the "Townie reaction" to the wagon on him that others unvoted for, and attacking the remaining members of his wagon, especially someone on V/LA, doesn't help.

v Sig v

[Giitah]

Just a headsup, fellow 'asshat', but not everyone was aware you were V/LA; it would be polite to INFORM people instead of just leaving a sign around. And I don't care how many games you're in if that's a point you're going to bring up.

[hiplop]

V/LA, super busy atm, probably until friday

[Heliman]

@Nintendoaddict11

What case? You don't talk about hiplop much, just to FoS him and say he's boxing himself into a corner. And how was it scummy for me to do?

Are you dense? the argument you made in #209, which I addressed in #221.

@Archarbob

If you have a point to make about my meta, you need to provide quotes. Context is everything. I don't even know what game you're talking about right now.

Don't play stupid, I linked the game in #226. The game is my quote.

It's never protown to defend someone unless you already

know

that they aren't capable of defending themselves, and they are actually about to be lynched.

*Cough* 13, new player and had half the active players on her tail stemming from a bad argument.

First ten pages, people talking about something instead of sitting on their asses. What's your point?

Now you're taking my post out of context. If you look at it's corresponding quote (re added since you decided to omit that bit), it's obvious that I was giving reasons for why helping Jil wasn't by your own description "anti-town."

This totally invalidates your argument from its advent. Also, its anti-town to point that out? If there is some sort of GLARING FLAW in someone's argument, pointing it out is obviously the pro town thing to do, because it makes sure that people don't start wasting pages and pages of time and info riding on a lame horse of an argument.

It doesn't invalidate my argument at all. What do you think my argument is exactly?

You know damn well it's about the FoS argument.

And yes, it's anti-town to point that out in the first ten pages of a game. You are depriving the town of a reaction. If it's near deadline and a player is about to be mislynched because of a bad argument,

then

you can jump right in. Anybody with half a brain could see that the wagon on jil wasn't a lynch wagon.

But archae, you DO get a reaction! Not from the hapless target, but from the scummy player that tried to pull the bad argument, like you!

A policy lynch? really?

I don't know what makes you think 1) that I'm pushing for a lynch or 2) that my Pine vote is purely based on policy.

unvote vote Pine

Do something. You're still voting me for my

Giitah

vote? Give me a break.

@ everyone -

Read his iso, note how utterly devoid of content his play is, and vote

<1)

this lurker

<2)

scum.

Archaebob, why doesn't this argument apply to Jil, who hasn't contributed to scum hunting enough? Better yet, why doesn't this apply to Hiplop, who has been sheeping and reasonless voting since we started?

I haven't said that it doesn't apply to them. All you know is that I picked

one

target and made an argument about that

one

person.

There are 3 players who are making little-to-no content posts. To pick and vote only one without addressing how this one the other two is a double standard.

Heliman, I have no patience for games. If you have an issue with me, drop a vote and make a case.

If you have no patience with games, why are you playing mafia? Contrary to popular beliefs held by many aggressive players, I don't have to vote to scumhunt, so if you me to make my case you're in for quite the pleasant surprise because you're looking at it.

How about helping me find out why Pine hasn't done anything to help town?

Do I look like a sheep to you? Screw it, I don't care. The reason why pine hasn't done anything to help town yet is because, to quote your own words, It was "the first ten pages." There, problem fucking solved.

[Barry Allen]

@ Ace - you wanted me to post what I saw as swinging back and forth with hiplop's posts. I'll add that info here, but will also note that while I was re-reading the thread for this post hiplop went V/LA. I do want to hear from hiplop upon his return, but also feel it important to add my observations while I have my notes from the re-reading at hand.

Before I do that, though....

UNVOTE Jil

Jil never did really defend herself, but it is obvious that continuing to press won't get us anywhere at this point. Now, let's get back to hiplop, and why I do have an FoS toward him:

1. After a couple of RVS votes, hiplop flipped to a vote on Bob for "taking everything too seriously" (which sounded to me as his first pressure vote...though later in response to DH, hiplop claims this was a joke-vote).
2. Afterward, hiplop switched to a vote on DemonHybrid, later claiming he was "the only one voting DH, I'm thinking for myself." (That was not true - hiplop was actually the third vote on DH, with all three votes still active at the time).
3. Later, he returns to vote Bob, without explaining the vote at the time (although there had been some back and forth with bob prior to the revote).
4. Later, hiplop states about bob, "unfortunately you're town" and votes giitah with the only case being "somethings not sitting right with you"

Then came a lot of dancing around on the subject of what meta information is valid and what is not. This started with a post where hiplop contradicted himself in the same post, telling bob "meta won't cut it" and then noting Jil's age as being something that could explain her play. Hiplop was called out on that by other players, and wound up in a series of explanations involving "psycho-graphic characteristics" versus other meta information. The explanations didn't make sense and frankly didn't ring true - it seemed more like being caught in a contradiction and trying to explain why you were OK in spite of your own words.

One other observation - early in the phase Heliman noted potentially "purposeful" typos on the part of hiplop. I didn't think much of that at the time, as a lot of players post with loose spelling and grammar. But, I did find it interesting that when getting fired up on DH, hiplop suddenly markedly improved in both grammar and spelling. It wasn't perfect...but it was MUCH better. Posts 114, 115 and 128 get increasingly better in terms of typing (again not perfect, but compare it to earlier posts). Then, things start to go back to prior typing style for the most part. That is a bit meta...and of course according to hiplop only psycho-graphic data is useful...but it is an interesting note.

Now, does this all add up to scum? It's not hard evidence, so I would like to hear more from hiplop upon his return.

[jilynne1991]

I'm moving so V/LA until Monday. Also, but I'll probably be in a horrible mood for the next week. God, I hate my parents.

Sorry you guys...

[nintendoaddict1]

@Nintendoaddict1

Two things: first, your argument against Hiplop is odd, because even though he made the absolution that Giitah is town, you've totally ignored the OTHER absolution he made that said that Giitah is scum. You're mistaking a way of speaking with a scum tell and that's NOT COOL.

Sorry 'bout that, I did have a dense moment, yes.

You realize that you just admitted that hip made a huge contradiction?

[Heliman]

Um, duh?

[nintendoaddict1]

Um, duh?

Exactly. So are you for or against a hiplop lynch?

[archaebob]

Heliman, you're too smart to be making these arguments, and to be playing this way. I hate to break it to you, but I can see right through you bud.

fos Heliman

Pine has declared himself V/LA.

unvote vote Scumhunter

It's been ten pages. Where's your content.

[Pine]

How about actually interacting with my continued accusations against you instead of just ignoring them? I find it hard to believe that in building your case against me, you did no re-reading, and my sig is plain as day there.

[archaebob]

I don't read sigs. Several people voted you besides me. You have no accusations worth responding to. Are you V/LA or not?

[Heliman]

@Archaebob

No defense? Ok, now

that's

scummy enough for a vote.

VOTE: Archaebob

@nintendoaddict1

Um, duh?

Exactly. So are you for or against a hiplop lynch?

Is this contradiction scummy? It's one thing to make a contradiction, and another thing to make a scummy one. IMO, Hiplop's contradiction isn't all that scummy, and even comes off as a simple change in opinions. Telling a scummy contradictions is usually a matter of weather or not it was made with either malicious intent or in pursuit of the player covering his own ass, weather or not it actually fits either category is up to you.

[nintendoaddict1]

@nintendoaddict1

Um, duh?

Exactly. So are you for or against a hiplop lynch?

Is this contradiction scummy? It's one thing to make a contradiction, and another thing to make a scummy one. IMO, Hiplop's contradiction isn't all that scummy, and even comes off as a simple change in opinions. Telling a scummy contradictions is usually a matter of weather or not it was made with either malicious intent or in pursuit of the player covering his own ass, weather or not it actually fits either category is up to you.

Yeah, I think it was a scummy contradiction. 5 hours is a pretty short time to change one's opinion.

Vote: hiplop

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

You didn't quote my meta as I asked you to, so I'm not interested in defending myself. I've never lynched a player because they FoSed in RVS instead of voting. You are also missing some extremely obvious truths about me and about how this game is played, and I want to see if you can figure them out for yourself.. Your arguments are not as clear as you think they are, and if you've actually read any of my town meta, you'll quickly realize how weak the rest your "case" is, and how useless your attempt to push it will be.

You are standing on nothing, and you are giving yourself away.

Cheers.

@ everyone -

Ughh, god damn. You do realize that in doing so you're depraving all of us of information and you're not doing ANYTHING at all to help the town, right?

I promise to be one of the most active players in the game once things get interesting. I will do plenty to help us lynch right and will take all lynches seriously.

unvote

Fine. I'll be done with RVS. Next vote will be an actual suspicion or have a purpose at least. Once I start getting involved in the game I often times end up vote-hopping quite a bit. It's not a scumtell from me though.

What do you guys think of this post. Has he kept his promise? In an earlier post he said that he hated D1 and didn't want to play until pg 10. That's unacceptable for a town player in general, but I let it go at the time because it wasn't worth getting into a playstyle argument with someone right then. It is now page 11, and he is still not playing.

The only thing I know about him is what I learned from the last few sentences of that post.

Fine. I'll be done with RVS. Next vote will be an actual suspicion or have a purpose at least.

Once I start getting involved in the game I often times end up vote-hopping quite a bit. It's not a scumtell from me though.

Loudly announcing what you are going to do before you do it is much more characteristic of a mafia mindset than a town one. Town is secure in the sincerity of their actions, and for the most part just do things. It is a very common tendency in scum players to reflexively start over-explaining themselves; it gives them an armored vehicle of logic with which they can justify their lies.

To my eyes, the italicized section above is really saying:

"Let me tell you exactly what my play will look like, so that when I start actually posting I can defend myself against anything you might say about me. If you accuse me of vote hopping I can say 'LOOK! I already said I might vote hop, and that it's a town tell for me.'"

This is filled with way too much nervous energy for town. It's also CRAZY premature for him to be defending himself against something that not only has he not been attacked for, but that he hasn't even done yet.

We need to learn more about this guy.

[archaebob]

unvote vote scumhunter

unvote vote scumhunter

[Giitah]

I like my vote where it is, for now, but I'm already suspicious of Scumhunter and am I also waiting for some input.
Also waiting for input from Hiplop and Ace; still wondering what you wanted there, Ace; and as for Hiplop, I've already posed a couple of questions to you that you may already be aware of if you've been keeping up with the thread.

[Scumhunter]

Hi archae, yea I know I need to start participating now. I will read and catch up ASAP + reply to your concerns. Expect something later this evening at some point.

[Barry Allen]

I still have my prior stated concerns about hiplop's back-and-forth. However, I do think it fair to let hiplop come back from V/LA and post a defense before casting a vote that way.

[Giitah]

General reminder to everyone that day 1 ends on June 26th, ten days from now. While we have time, we don't have all the time in the world.