Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

1) If you weren't voting me right now, who would you be voting and why?

2) What's the intended purpose of your current vote? Are you succeeding in your objective?

@ Demon Hybrid -

1) If you weren't voting Jil right now, who would you be voting and why?

2) What is the intended purpose of your current vote? Are you succeeding in your objective?

@ ScumHunter -

It's evening and you still haven't posted. Get cracking.

@ everyone -

All of you who are the sole person on your wagon (Barry Allen, Giitah, Ace, etc.), please join me in pressuring Scumhunter. You can clearly see that he deserves it. Afterwards, I promise to look closely at each of your top suspects and provide assistance to your scumhunting efforts if I think you are on to something.

We should all start doing this for each other. As Giitah, said, we only have ten days left. It is now time for the scumhunting efforts of the town to coalesce into one unstoppable force of justice, so that we maximize the slip potential of the scum by forcing them at all times to make a choice between conforming and resisting the town bandwagon. They will make themselves naked before us with their movements on to and off of the wagons in such an environment. You'll see.

In fact, with the way things are going so far, I think we might catch all three today.

Players who I still want to wagon before choosing the day's lynch:

Scumhunter
Deuxiem Octopus
Pine

I think Jil probably needs to be replaced.

Also, Spadille better post like a bitch when he turns up.

[Giitah]

I'll think this over at a later time, at the moment, Jil, if you've read that, I think he means you're just not active enough. You've held us up the longest so far what with 'oh I've gotta run and do this' 'sorry I was off doing this', if you can't commit to this it won't work out.

[DemonHybrid]

Reading over the last few pages.

Bob: If I wasn't voting Jil for extreme mega active lurking, I'd be voting Scumhunter for extreme mega....lurking. hiplop's content has gotten better twicefold over the last page, especially since he's explained his vote on you a bit better.

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

You have no wagon, and you aren't trying to make one happen. You haven't posted any content in several pages, and you've posted almost close to zero

original

content all game. Your vote is on a lurker who clearly isn't here, and you are more than happy to just sit and wait on that vote without taking any steps to contribute meaningfully to discussion.

What am I supposed to make of you? You're way too smart to be playing like this.

I want to know who you think is scum and why.

And if you're just voting jil for lurking, then I would imagine she's interchangeable with another lurker, right? I've pointed out a legitimate reason to be suspicious of Scumhunter, and he actually seems to present in the thread right now. How about switching over and making yourself useful?

So far I don't have a single reason to think you are town.

[Pine]

What's your case on me again, bob? Lurking (while on V/LA) and voting for you?

[DemonHybrid]

No, bob. There's a difference between ACTIVE lurking and lurking.

Jil has been showing this attitude ever since the game started. This is her history of posting.

Hi!

Vote: Barry Allen

for being the first person to post besides the mod.

RVS.

Fos: hiplop

for spelling Giitah's name wrong.

An RVS FoS.

Spadille! Hi! I'm playing with you again!!!

Active lurking post.

I don't see anything wrong with what archaebob is doing, but it might be a bit early to start nitpicking.

Most people start doing that, when everyone's commenting and we're *clearly* out of RVS.

If we're "clearly" out of RVS, then it makes no sense that she has an RVS post up and no suspicions.

I wouldn't say what archebob is doing anything bad, since it will certainly be helpful later.

Still no suspicions.

Vote: DemonHybrid

for ditching games.

More RVS.

DemonHybrid, just saying, but I caught up just fine. (Oh wait, nevermind, I have pretty much all the time in the world.)

Ok, well then

Unvote: DemonHybrid, Vote: Heliman

since I hate helicopters.

EVEN MORE RVS. This is two votes after she said that RVS is "clearly" over.

Oh ok, sorry, this is my first time participating in RVS, since I used to be under the impression that standing back and watching would be better.

I didn't really understand when RVS ended, yet.

Oh, and I slept, went to school, and then went to an amusement park, so yea, I was a bit late in replying.

unvote

So, I guess RVS isn't "clearly" over. Still no suspicions.

DemonHybrid, just to confirm, but you're male right?

(Since you're avatar and gender seem to disagree.)

Active lurking post.

LOL, yes, that was pretty much what I was going to say.

I can see you reason, but you can't FoS or Vote someone with no case.

Still no suspicions.

Btw, you do realize RVS ends at different times, for different people, right? you seem to be very, very confused, or have very low reading comprehension skills. It was clearly a non-serious vote. Being too serious isnt a legit reason.

I don't get the first sentence. How does RVS end at different times for different people?

Active lurking post. Still no suspicions. Seems like a real question, but with no scumhunting intent.

Oh, right, my FoS was a joke, ok, ummm, unFoS?

LOL

unFoS hiplop

Active lurking post. Still no suspicions.

Ok, sorry, somehow I've been missing alot of posts these days. Answering all soon!

Active lurking post.

Fos: hiplop

for spelling Giitah's name wrong.

Was this a serious fos?

Obviously, not.

Still no suspicions.

Okay, Jilynne, I'll accept your vote back there was a mistake. However, what do you think of the proceedings so far? Who warrants your vote?

Ok, this has been happening alot. Usually, no one warrants my vote until further into Day 1, usually takes till at least page 10.

Hmmm, I think what's happened so far has been nice, alot of people have been scumhunting, people are making sense, everything seems to be going well for town.

"Let me just sit on the sidelines and comment on how everyone is doing. I'll look really town!"

Plus, "taking until page 10" to put down a serious vote is absolute bullshit. I've never seen one serious townie wait until page 10 to have SOME sort of suspicion.

As of this point, 3 or so people have asked her for her reads.

Oh, crap, I'm so sorry, I don't know what's up with me, ok, so here it is:

After going through hiplop's ISO it looks like he wants to appear like he is scumhunting with the least possible content. He might just be lazy, but this could also be a scumtell.

More content please!

I don't like the way you're playing the game, because from what I said earlier you point fingers at everyone, so if you'er scum, we have no one to connect you to, and I'd really like to see some actual content.

Earlier, I believed you're town, but you're kind of null now. Sorry archebob.

Took her like 10 posts. But this line of reasoning is fake, almost automatic, like a robot pre-programmed to say that in response to "What are your reads?".

Oh, I only FoSed hiplop, because I was voting someone else lol.

Active lurking post.

LOL, because at the time it was RVS, and I didn't want to have to unvote.

MY GOD WHY WONT YOU PRESSURE SOMEONE AND ACTUALLY ATTEMPT TO FIGURE OUT WHO IS SCUM

Ok, excuse my tone, but I AM NOT A LITTLE GIRL. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I AM PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF THINKING CLEARLY, AND MY MIND WORKS JUST FINE.

I may not be very good at mafia because I'm new. NOT BECAUSE I'M 13.

More active lurking. Annoyed at being called a little girl. Doesn't mean anything. This was a fast reply, by the way. She is legitimate about being angry about this, but not about finding scum.

...Yes, I'm 13, thank you very much for all your concern over my age.

More of this.

Ok, I'll tell you who exactly tomorrow, when all my projects are done and I won't ever have homework again for 7th grade! YAYYYYY

MORE STALLING.

And then she goes V/LA.

So, it should be

plainfully fucking obvious

as to why I'm voting her. I don't like how you dug into the fact that "I posted no content" when you have this little fireball with absolutely no reads except a "hiplop is sort of scumhunting but eh. Oh, and bob is null."

I literally ISOed this person completely, and she has 0.1% of the content required at this stage of the game. It's ridiculously obvious.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't see anything wrong with what archaebob is doing, but it might be a bit early to start nitpicking.

Most people start doing that, when everyone's commenting and we're *clearly* out of RVS.

I misread this. She was talking about the future, when people ARE clearly out of RVS. She wasn't saying they were as of that post.

Ignore that point and all subsequent points off of that post. Doesn't negate any of the active lurking that she did.

Once she shows me that she can effectively scumhunt without a thin veil of light suspicion, then I'll move my vote. But I want this person ded.

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

I'm not saying that jil has not done anything to deserve your vote. I'm saying that in the context of this game, your decision to continue voting her without doing anything else is too easy, and contributes too little to town. We may very well still lynch her today, but in the meantime you are accomplishing nothing. You don't look like town who doesn't know the roles and is trying to figure things out. You look like scum who has found a plausible justification for parking their vote on someone and is now just coasting through the day without doing anything else remotely helpful/risky.

If you were serious about wanting Jil dead, you would have been sitting here trying to draw attention to your points and persuade others onto a jil wagon. Instead you just disappeared.

I'm a big supporter of the idea that policy lynches can be pro-town in some situations. But deciding early in the day that you want a policy lynch and then just sitting there is enormously anti-town. We can get jil at the end of the day if that's really the best move. But in the meantime, do something. There's nothing else to be learned from voting jil right now, as she clearly isn't here.

You've missed some questions:

On a scale of 1 to 10, how effective has your jil vote been in reaching its objective? Why?

Who do you think is

scum

?

And...I take it you disagree that lurkers who fail to meet the content threshhold are interchangeable? Jil hasn't posted much, but I don't see her incentive for behaving the way she has as town OR scum. It just looks to me like she's disinterested and doesn't know how to play. That isn't an excuse, and she needs to eventually play or be lynched/replaced, but right now there are still players who we literally know

nothing

about, and you don't seem to care.

I don't buy your play at all.

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

I'm moving so V/LA until Monday. Also, but I'll probably be in a horrible mood for the next week. God, I hate my parents.

Sorry you guys...

You noticed this post, right?

[DemonHybrid]

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Oh, crap, I'm so sorry, I don't know what's up with me, ok, so here it is:

After going through hiplop's ISO it looks like he wants to appear like he is scumhunting with the least possible content. He might just be lazy, but this could also be a scumtell.

More content please!

I don't like the way you're playing the game, because from what I said earlier you point fingers at everyone, so if you'er scum, we have no one to connect you to, and I'd really like to see some actual content.

Earlier, I believed you're town, but you're kind of null now. Sorry archebob.

Bob, what do you think of this post?

And in response to #283: You noticed that I put that post in my ISO and noted that she was active lurking before that post about 50 times, right?

[DemonHybrid]

I want Jil dead and I don't see anyone else as scummy. It has nothing to do with her being new. It has everything to do with her posting the above ^

without voting seriously, getting a list of reads, or actually doing some scumhunting without having to be asked 50 times.

It's astonishing how you call me someone with no content for focusing on one person and being quite shocked that no one's seeing the active lurkiness of her, and not even bother reading anything but the post in which she went V/LA. You know, her last post. AFTER all of the active lurking she did.

[Heliman]

V/LA until Wednesday, not that you care, but I'm going on a cross-country trip to Boston.

[archaebob]

@ DemonHybrid -

Again.

It's not about whether she deserves your suspicion. It's about

what are you doing right now to help town

.

We aren't lynching her right this second, yes? She isn't going to be here

at all

to answer questions or feel pressured by you until Monday, yes?

So your plan is to leave your vote on her and sit with your thumb up your ass until she gets back? Why not go after someone else, and then go back to her later when you might actually get some responses from her?

I'm

not

defending her play. I'm attacking yours for being useless.

And I don't see you doing anything to persuade anyone that jil is

scummy

instead of just anti-town.

What do you think of Heliman's attacks on me?

@ Heliman -

Since you are leaving, can you please answer my two questions to you super quick? You're going to be gone on an awful long time, and we're nearing the last phase or so of the day.

[ace5993]

DemonHybrid how can you have decent reads on Scumhunter, Octopus, and Spad? You shouldn't be advocating a policy lynch before you have a decent read on everybody.

Vote: Scumhunter

.

We wasted 10 pages on Jil, hopefully that won't happen with these wagons but having the wagons IS NECESSARY. We cannot finish day 1 with little to no information on a quarter of the playerlist.

@Giitah

- I was just wondering because it changes the way I look at some of your posts. I'll come back to that case after these wagons are done, assuming they get started.

Analyzing Heliman vs. bob later today, I'll return with some thoughts on that later.

[Giitah]

Nine days now.
What a guy.

Unvote, Vote ScumHunter

I'll have a look at DemonHybrid's play and arguments so far throughout the game, then, I'm interested in seeing how he's played so far.

[Scumhunter]

post incoming t-minus 1 hour?

[nintendoaddict1]

post incoming t-minus 1 hour?

You were gonna make a post last night... And you broke your promise (so far) to be an active player...

Vote: Scumhunter

At least so you will actually post this time...

[Barry Allen]

post incoming t-minus 1 hour?

You were gonna make a post last night... And you broke your promise (so far) to be an active player...
Vote: Scumhunter

At least so you will actually post this time...

I thought the post from nintendoaddict was a bit early....until that hour went by with STILL no promised post. I'm not voting yet...but it is time to keep your word scumhunter.

[Barry Allen]

OK - there is something I need to fix with my time zone here...when my last post went up it was 9:50 a.m. my time, and judging by the time stamp I thought there was an hour that had gone by...but by the time stamp on

my

post I need to fix the time zone setting on this site for me...still, we need that post scumhunter...

[nintendoaddict1]

post incoming t-minus 1 hour?

You were gonna make a post last night... And you broke your promise (so far) to be an active player...
Vote: Scumhunter

At least so you will actually post this time...

I thought the post from nintendoaddict was a bit early....until that hour went by with STILL no promised post. I'm not voting yet...but it is time to keep your word scumhunter.

It hasn't been an hour yet, but I was voting to make sure he actually kept his word this time, and my vote stays if he doesn't... and maybe even if he does depending on the content.

P. Edit: I see now... I had a similar thing on hotmail one time.

[Scumhunter]

First, I apologize for not posting sooner. It has been 2-3 days since I've thought to myself hell, looks like this game has really picked up, time for me to jump in. Up until a couple months ago, I played online poker for a living. It was recently banned here in the U.S. so the gov't essentially laid me off -______-. So yea, I just started a new job recently. What better place than the corporate world to use my talent at math and being good at lying to and reading people!!! Downside, I am office bitch for the foreseeable future and that I have far less interweb leisure time than I am used to. I woke up an hour early just to post in this game becuase I was too tired last night, but rest assuerd I am committed to this game and finding the scum. I generally am against the concept of V/LA because I think it is a weak excuse scum can use to get out of a lynch towards the deadline, but if I remain super busy I may opt to do something like that. Anyways, this game has my attention and now that I'm caught up it should be easier to stay involved even if for just 10 min spurts here and there.

K. So to respond to the only suspicion on me other than my lurking:

Fine. I'll be done with RVS. Next vote will be an actual suspicion or have a purpose at least.

Once I start getting involved in the game I often times end up vote-hopping quite a bit. It's not a scumtell from me though.

Loudly announcing what you are going to do before you do it is much more characteristic of a mafia mindset than a town one. Town is secure in the sincerity of their actions, and for the most part just do things. It is a very common tendency in scum players to reflexively start over-explaining themselves; it gives them an armored vehicle of logic with which they can justify their lies.

To my eyes, the italicized section above is really saying:

"Let me tell you exactly what my play will look like, so that when I start actually posting I can defend myself against anything you might say about me. If you accuse me of vote hopping I can say 'LOOK! I already said I might vote hop, and that it's a town tell for me.'"

This is filled with way too much nervous energy for town. It's also CRAZY premature for him to be defending himself against something that not only has he not been attacked for, but that he hasn't even done yet.

We need to learn more about this guy.

I really don't believe in "over-explaining" oneself. Towns often fail because of a lack to communicate clearly even when they think they are being clear with their intentions. Just look at yourself and Heliman this game for example.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3037266

This was a recently town finished game of mine where my very first post was "I'm looking forward to a town win." I was quickly wagoned to L-1 for that lulz. I have the tendency to be repetitive and obvious in my pov as town. I think that appearing town is actually a more important job for town than hunting scum. The universe disagrees with me. But it is a strong opinion of mine.


As for reads:

1. hiplop: Leaning town. Your posts seem sincere to me. I often share your pov that seriousness in RVS annoys the piss out of me, but really that could come from scum not wanting to begin the uphill battle of defending themselves and faking scumhunting all game.

2. Pine: Null. The fosing people based on typos, etc. is weak scumhunting, but early on its an ok start. Will need to see more when he's back from semi-V/LA to get a better read.

3. Deuxieme Octopus: I'd probably say town, but 2 total posts is a small sample size for any sort of read. I liked your point on Pine. Please post more, god I feel like such a hypocrite saying that. I felt Pine's posts were a little "vacuous" as you said and that they could, key word could be insincere.

4. archaebob: Incredibly obv town. Lmfao, are/were people voting him? He has fosed just about everyone in the game. I suppose it's possible that he is a very good scum player trying to take charge from the beginning of the game...but I think it would be hard to fake the legitimacy of the scumhunting he is trying to do. I wouldn't call him overzealous town either has all his pressuring has been getting at something.

5. jilynne1991: Null. There is no chance you are 13 years old nor a girl. If I were a betting man (which I am), I would wager a significant amount of money that you are both male and over the age of 18. Your vocabulary and attitude are not coming from a 13 year old girl. Plus what 13 year old has "1991" in their user name. It's incredibly obvious to me that your IRL "identity" is faked, I'd assume for game-related advantages of being perceived as a newb. I have no idea what that means about your alignment, I'm just saying your "Newb 13 year old girl tactic" isn't going to work on me this game.

6. Barry Allen: Lean Scum. I don't like the way you took your vote off of jilynne. "Obviously pressuring her isn't going to get us anywhere." What the hell is that? You hadn't REALLY pressured her whatsoever. All you really did was explain why you voted her and make 1 post that could be vaguely described as pressuring jilynne. The point of pressure is pressuring until you actually get something from it not giving up after a weak attempt. Also, you noticed early on about jilynne "I don't see a defense, we are at L-2.." I read your whole attitude as being lynch-focused so far as opposed to scumhunting focused.

7. nintendoaddict1: Town. You really really are barking up the wrong tree though suspecting archaebob and hiplop. How anyone reads bob as scum is beyond me. I also don't think hiplop is all that scummy either. There are better people to go after Barry Allen,

8. Heliman: Town. Jesus, townies really need to stop arguing with archaebob. Heliman, what it comes down to is you disagree with the way that bob pressures people and votes people. He has done the most to help town, so your vote is really really poor tbh. It is ok to have double standards and crap cases in the beginning because it elicits reactions. The reactions are so important. You get reactions from the player being voted, the way other players interact with that player and with the wagon itself. It is vital information even if the cases and logic are shit. Logic is just one part of the game good sir. Votes aren't always with the intent to lynch..

9. ace5993: Lean Scum. I don't really understand your fos/unfos of Barry. I don't see anything in Barry's play to warrant such a change in opinion. Your fos on bob screams to me that you are scum scared of his influence this game. You said at the beginning of the day "We don't need a wagon every single time someone does something even the slightest bit scummy.
" and now you just said "We wasted 10 pages on Jil, hopefully that won't happen with these wagons but having the wagons IS NECESSARY." Such a contrast in your opinions on the need for wagons/pressuring people makes me go O.o. It would help me if you explained exactly which "quirks" in Barry's playing style changed your opinion on him.: I

10. DemonHybrid: Town. I like how you called bob obv town, I was literally going down the list waiting for someone to point that out. I agree that Jil has contributed squat, but I'd much rather go after Barry/ace today.

11. Spadille: Null. No posts yet.

13. Giitah: Gut scum. I don't have anything condemning on you. I felt like your "Ugh." reaction to me saying I was goign to lurk to page 10 and that you asking deuxieme not to lurk were faked attempts to look town. Town are usually more annoyed by my non-helpful attitude early on. Oh, and also, I don't really know where you stand in relation to who you think is scum or who you would prefer to vote at this point...?

Town reads (strongest to weakest): archaebob, DH, nintendoaddict1, Heliman, hiplop, deuxieme octopus
Null reads: Pine, jilynne1991, Spadille
Scum reads (strongest to weakest): ace5993, BarryAllen, Giitah

vote ace5993

[Scumhunter]

Nintendo, please think about why you want to vote me. Is it solely because I have been lurking? Does that make me scum? Normally lurking is actually somewhat of a scumtell from me, but if you check my other games on here I have been similarly inactive the last few days. Ignoring my lurking up until this point...why would you want to vote me?

[nintendoaddict1]

Nintendo, please think about why you want to vote me. Is it solely because I have been lurking? Does that make me scum? Normally lurking is actually somewhat of a scumtell from me, but if you check my other games on here I have been similarly inactive the last few days. Ignoring my lurking up until this point...why would you want to vote me?

Like I said, the vote on you was to ensure you would actually post something. Seeing as you have, I'll UNVOTE: .

Oh, but wait, something stood out to me in that wall:

I suppose it's possible that he is a very good scum player trying to take charge from the beginning of the game... How anyone reads bob as scum is beyond me.

What's this? Saying bob could be scum, and in the same post, showing disbelief that anyone could see bob as scum?

What is this I don't even...

[nintendoaddict1]

why would you want to vote me?

I'll at least wait for you to post before re-voting you based on what I put in my previous post.

[Barry Allen]

@ Scumhunter...glad to see you post, even though I may not agree with all your conclusions. I do have a question and some comments, though...

Question: You have a "null" read on Pine but you like Octupus's vote on Pine. Why?

Comments:
You may have a real point on Jil. Your note of the "1991" in the name is interesting. It's still somewhat meta, and since I have noted being handed my hat by younger players it doesn't change how I feel about Jil's affiliation. Whether Jil is a 13 year old girl or a much older male has no bearing on affiliation. btw, my removing my vote because the pressure wasn't working was a reference to the fact that Jil had gone all the way to L-2 and was down to only 2 votes (one of them mine) without ever having defended herself. There was certainly interference from other players (including at least one player stating that they were purposely messing with the pressure on Jil), but the bottom line was that I had to realize my vote was not going to result in anything useful to the town at this time. I have not quit suspecting Jil, I simply moved on to do other scumhunting since the players were obviously not of a mind to continue pressing Jil.

As for your stand on hiplop, I disagree. I find hiplop's posting style somewhat suspicious, much in the way you suspect Jil of pretending to be 13. Please go back and look at how hiplop's typos and grammar seemed to get much better when getting defensive/angry, then later went back to the looser grammar and spelling of earlier posts. Again that's a bit meta, but I'm still waiting for hiplop to respond to my (and other's) earlier posts before making a judgment call there.

I would like to hear more - like your answer to my question above. Some of your observations leave a little room for a head-scratching response (such as declaring someone likely town who has barely posted, and liking that person's vote for a "null" read). But, I want to see more from you before I make a call on you.