Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[hiplop]

Graiie, explain where DH has ever been pro-town. Now. He hasnt done anything useful all game. Make sure to include evidence.

Where have i ever gotten in the way, too? I think my attack on archbob is townie enough, and it was pretty solid logic. I got him to pretty much confirm himself + a few others/get off the track. This town is really nit-picky and i get frustrated over that. (ie typing thing, get over it people)

you realize that me saying directly who i'm ok with lynching; is not scummy at all..right? If i were scum in this scenario it would limit my options to squirm around.

^^ Thats why your reads increased your scum-points, for me. You didn't decisively say

anything

, pretty much all of them except bob say "They could be scum or town". Paving an easy route for you to flip-flop your opinions

[hiplop]

i like to do these kind of things so; Early prediction for scum.
Graiee
Scumhunter
DH

Graiee, could you put a list of scum-town using just names? Just so we know who is more scum than others etc etc

[DemonHybrid]

DH could you please explain how a serious vote implies that you think the person is scummy? Why have you switched your stance on bob's wagoning from "it's awesome scumhunting" to "if you dont think the person is scummy, you're scummy for wagoning them"?

His latest reads aren't consistent with what he's said and what he's been pushing for. He did a lot of voting, pushing and looking around, but seems very schizophrenic and tends to forget past reads very easily. He has too many null reads.

[hiplop]

dh, graiie has the same faults as you just mentioned, explain in great detail your thoughts on her

[DemonHybrid]

Giitah.

I'll ISO him and post tomorrow.

Also, you're terrible with names.

[DemonHybrid]

He still hasn't given reasoning, even with a vote on me.

I'm kind of loling at the people saying I did nothing, ignoring Jil's active lurking, and being hypocritical.

You'll get your Giitah ISO tomorrow, but it'll have to be late tomorrow night after work.

[hiplop]

i know, i associate people with avatars/sigs, dont pay a lot of attention to names

[foilist13]

@Giitah: You literally called every single person town or null. I think maybe two had a "could be scum" in there to go along with the town read. This was without doubt the least helpful set of reads I have ever seen in a game to date.

Choose 3 people as scum. We know there should at least be that many, so any fewer scum candidates is unreasonable. Go.

[Pine]

[V/LA]Rofl at Giitah's reads. He called other people noobs. (insert pictures of black pot and black kettle that I'm too lazy to post on my phone.)[/V/LA]

[ace5993]

Alright we'll do this one ScumHunter bulletpoint style:

1. DemonHybrid was (and still is) pushing a policy lynch on Jil for not being particularly useful to town even at a time when 3 players in the game had not posted yet. Advocating a policy lynch (well before the deadline) on someone when you don't have reads on every player is scummy no matter what.

1.5. DemonHybrid is trying to say that the policy lynch on Jil isn't actually a policy lynch. 90% of his case on Jil is for active lurking/"still no suspicions", however it's impossible to active lurk when the wagon IS ON YOU and everyone is focused on you. Her posting style was right at the center of everyone's attention, which means that she's simply not very good at the game, not taking the time to play properly (10+ games, yeah right), or completely oblivious to everything posted in the thread. The rest of the points are either minor, based on differences in mafia theory, or based on blatant misreading of Jil's posts (tempted to quote here but I said bulletproof, it's the "still being in RVS" point at the beginning of post #280). I can further expand on why Jil is town later if anyone wants more on it.

2. DemonHybrid did not support or even appear to understand the reasoning behind the wagons on ScumHunter and Octopus, and even attacked bob for them. When questioned he replies with complete bullshit that doesn't really answer the questions.

3. DH's early game case on hiplop was scummy:

a. Contrary to his absolute refusal to leave the Jil wagon when there were clearly other wagons to be made, he abandoned the hiplop wagon rather fast because his "vote was getting stale".
b. After he changed his vote he made what looks like a deliberate show of gradually winding down the case on hiplop based on somewhat weak answers to apparent misunderstandings, finally ending with a weak "hiplop has improved his content in the last couple pages".

In hindsight bulletpoint posts suck and I will not be making any in the future, however I spent a while writing this so I'll post it anyway. It should give you an overview of why DH is scummy anyway. I don't think he's the best candidate (probably #2) for today's lynch at the moment but he's certainly scummy enough to deserve a wagon while Pine's V/LA.

The only odd thing I find is that he promised to give us an analysis of the Heliman vs. Archaebob argument, which never did pop up ever again if I'm not mistaken.

I didn't find anything particularly scummy on either side and I didn't really want to waste a post explaining why I thought an argument was town vs town.

You didn't post a read on Pine.

Overall I find Giitah's list of town reads disappointing but not scummy, each read seems well-thought out and with non-C/P'd reasoning. I agree with hiplop that we need a list in order of scummiest to towniest for all those reads to really be helpful.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright we'll do this one ScumHunter bulletpoint style:

1. DemonHybrid was (and still is) pushing a policy lynch on Jil for not being particularly useful to town even at a time when 3 players in the game had not posted yet. Advocating a policy lynch (well before the deadline) on someone when you don't have reads on every player is scummy no matter what.

1.5. DemonHybrid is trying to say that the policy lynch on Jil isn't actually a policy lynch. 90% of his case on Jil is for active lurking/"still no suspicions", however it's impossible to active lurk when the wagon IS ON YOU and everyone is focused on you. Her posting style was right at the center of everyone's attention, which means that she's simply not very good at the game, not taking the time to play properly (10+ games, yeah right), or completely oblivious to everything posted in the thread. The rest of the points are either minor, based on differences in mafia theory, or based on blatant misreading of Jil's posts (tempted to quote here but I said bulletproof, it's the "still being in RVS" point at the beginning of post #280). I can further expand on why Jil is town later if anyone wants more on it.

2. DemonHybrid did not support or even appear to understand the reasoning behind the wagons on ScumHunter and Octopus, and even attacked bob for them. When questioned he replies with complete bullshit that doesn't really answer the questions.

3. DH's early game case on hiplop was scummy:

a. Contrary to his absolute refusal to leave the Jil wagon when there were clearly other wagons to be made, he abandoned the hiplop wagon rather fast because his "vote was getting stale".
b. After he changed his vote he made what looks like a deliberate show of gradually winding down the case on hiplop based on somewhat weak answers to apparent misunderstandings, finally ending with a weak "hiplop has improved his content in the last couple pages".

In hindsight bulletpoint posts suck and I will not be making any in the future, however I spent a while writing this so I'll post it anyway. It should give you an overview of why DH is scummy anyway. I don't think he's the best candidate (probably #2) for today's lynch at the moment but he's certainly scummy enough to deserve a wagon while Pine's V/LA.

The only odd thing I find is that he promised to give us an analysis of the Heliman vs. Archaebob argument, which never did pop up ever again if I'm not mistaken.

I didn't find anything particularly scummy on either side and I didn't really want to waste a post explaining why I thought an argument was town vs town.

You didn't post a read on Pine.

Overall I find Giitah's list of town reads disappointing but not scummy, each read seems well-thought out and with non-C/P'd reasoning. I agree with hiplop that we need a list in order of scummiest to towniest for all those reads to really be helpful.

I only have time to post that your points are absolutely flawed, because you can absolutely active lurk when there's pressure on you. Who told you you can't?

[DemonHybrid]

Please ISO me in this game. Because I active lurked like a beast, had a ton of people pressuring me (including Fate, of all people) and STILL kept on active lurking.

[hiplop]

Did you just claim scum Dh?

[DemonHybrid]

I had to double take at that statement. You should try reading sometime.

I'm proving that scum can active lurk while being pressured. It's what I think Jil is doing and it's why ace's case is bullshit.

hiplop, do you believe that I'm active lurking this game? Because I want to make sure that I'm hearing your bullshit correctly.

[DemonHybrid]

By the way, for the record, I'm 6th in post count this game and have given a read on everyone a few times already. Some people need to be ISO'd for a more thorough read, which I promised I would do later.

[Giitah]

Sorry if I may have offended others... >___>
Now that I think about it, I perhaps should have worded that much differently.

I'll review and choose three targets. I have an inkling, but, yes, I don't have too many good reads, I apologize.

[hiplop]

I had to double take at that statement. You should try reading sometime.

I'm proving that scum can active lurk while being pressured. It's what I think Jil is doing and it's why ace's case is bullshit.

hiplop, do you believe that I'm active lurking this game? Because I want to make sure that I'm hearing your bullshit correctly.

Yes, you have lots of posts, sure, yet none of them have content besides "JIL IS SCUMZROS, ILL KEEP SAYING THE SAME HNG OVER AND OVERZ". In the beginning you were going for the active player, but slowly you just turned into an active lurker.

[Giitah]

Hiplop, make a case against DemonHybrid before I say why the fucking hell he's town because you haven't even got a goddamn case against him, for god's sake. You're just voting him from what I see.

[Giitah]

Graiie, explain where DH has ever been pro-town. Now. He hasnt done anything useful all game. Make sure to include evidence.

Where have i ever gotten in the way, too? I think my attack on archbob is townie enough, and it was pretty solid logic. I got him to pretty much confirm himself + a few others/get off the track. This town is really nit-picky and i get frustrated over that. (ie typing thing, get over it people)

you realize that me saying directly who i'm ok with lynching; is not scummy at all..right? If i were scum in this scenario it would limit my options to squirm around.

^^ Thats why your reads increased your scum-points, for me. You didn't decisively say

anything

, pretty much all of them except bob say "They could be scum or town". Paving an easy route for you to flip-flop your opinions

Yes, part of the reason why I said you get in the way is that your style of typing has something to be missed. Everyone's investigated you and come up with nothing on the baiss that 'you look scummy', with absolutely no evidence. It's not your fault, but you do, and I think that's what I was thinking when I posted that.

Obviously, Hiplop, I won't know who's town or Mafia at this point, because I'm not Mafia. What I am I supposed to do, act like I'm dead certain someone's scum when I really don't have any thing but inklings and gut feelings? I'm not sure what else you expect from me. Do you want me to make a faulty and weak case against someone and say everyone else is in the clear?

Three top picks incoming.

[hiplop]

Hiplop, make a case against DemonHybrid before I say why the fucking hell he's town because you haven't even got a goddamn case against him, for god's sake. You're just voting him from what I see.

settle the fuck down. Ive explained why hes scum, you just ignore it

[Giitah]

Did you even read my post?

Yes, hiplop, I read all your posts. I find them not to be consistent in either content or posting style. The post I'm quoting from you is like a lot of your early posts, where you quote a longer post from someone else (in this case me) and make a very quick comment...making it look like you are contributing much more than you actually are. Your later posts swing back and forth in both content and style, depending on how much heat you are getting at the moment. Until I see something better from you I'll keep my vote where it is.

There is one other question that I did answer earlier...but that question seems to have come up again so I'd like to answer it again after quoting the most recent note on the subject:

Now,

@Barry

Post #4 you said you wanted to hear from jil because she was at L-2. I know this has been said before, but drawing attention to her absence seems almost opportunistic.

I don't think either of them are scum, though, but you can't be really sure on D1.

At the time of the post referenced above, Jil had actually been on thread multiple times without giving a defense, even though the votes were piling up. She had only been at L-2 for a few hours (hence my time zone reference), but this had been going on for much longer with her active posting...but no defense. That's what I was calling out...not her absence from the thread, but her absence of a defense.

get over it, you have no argument. I type walls when i have something to type about. When im just replying to a question, there is no need. If you look at my meta (since you guys seem to love it), i type like this in every game; Scum or Town. Which is why your logic sucks smurf.

As for bobs ask from us; My vote is on my most scummy, Barry has gone up a few points with his persistance with me. Yet demonhunter continues to try and pull a policy lynch on jilyanne. He was one of the ones leading the charge on her, and it wasted like 10 pages. Obvious scum-delay is obvious. Also, theres something just wrong with his posts, they come across very scummy, cant really explain it

just so the mod doesnt get confused;

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DemonHybrid

DH is town, we are not voting him. I am 95% sure that DH-scum would have loved to tunnel a policy vote on me today for our disagreements from last game.

I want to see your case on him Bob. Also, yea Pine is V/LA, we don't want to vig him or even consider voting him til he gets back and can contribute. That is reckless play.

I have to agree with DH with regards to jilynne. If the point of voting someone for pressure is to actually elicit a response you don't just GIVE UP when they aren't responding. You continue to pressure them until they either respond or lynched as bad town/scum.

I'm more than willing to vote jilynne if she doesn't want to contribute.

vote jilynne1991

so because hes going after someone else, that makes him town?

I think we've found our scum team guys.. (dh and scumhunter)

This is all I can find on your case on DH. So you want to kill him because he's still insisting on killing an active lurker? Personally, I don't buy your case. All you say is 'HE KEEPS WANTING TO KILL HER' and 'HE LOOKS SCUMMY'.
That's not a case. Bring up some evidence and evidence for counterarguments because there's a lot that can be said on the topic of DH. You've proven yourself relatively intelligent and you're no longer on V/LA, so you should be fine with doing this, right?

[Giitah]

Okay... I'm going to apologize and I'll give my reads tonight. I can't focus at the moment, RL problems. Sorry everybody.

[hiplop]

alright,ill explain it to you. Look at the clear connection between scumhunter and demonhybrid. They're distantly defending eachother, and scumhunter is using some LOL defense about a policy lynch. Giitah, he hasnt handled pressure well at ALL, he continues to tunnel Jil, with no real case; all hes saying is that shes a lurker, and we all know that. Hes clinging to one person so that he doesnt have to squirm around as scum. Also, his blatant overexaggerations/practically worshipping Bob in earlygame is incresibly scummy.

[foilist13]

I would really love to hear everybody's thoughts on Nintendo, and I'm rather surprised that no one except scumhunter really said anything after I posted that case.

@Hiplop: Why do you feel DemonHybrid deserves a vote more than Nintendo does?

@DemonHybrid: Arguably Pine is active lurking just as much as Jillynne is. Why are you only focused on her as opposed to the other lurkers as well? Pine has been squatting on V/LA for most of the day, and popping back in to say irrelevant things. He's basically protecting himself from being lynched on a technicality while avoiding posting reads, and occasionally calling people wrong or scummy. Personally I get a way bigger gut scum read from Pine than I do from Jillynne.

Yes it is possible for scum to active lurk despite massive wagons and get away with it. Furcolow did that in a game I played with him and it was the most irritating thing I've ever seen. That doesn't mean that Jillynne is active lurking, nor does it mean that she is scum. Looking over her play she's pretty much just a lurker, not an active lurker. She avoids posting reads, which is actually counter productive to active lurking. The whole point of active lurking is to avoid attention, where as never posting reads at all drags attention to you. Real active lurkers post vague or unreasoned reads that they can stand by or change later. Jillynne isn't doing that. Pine is.

If nothing else, recognize that you are not helping the town with your vote. You aren't discussing other players, you are not offering any insight on any issue, you are simply defending your Jillynne vote to the death. The likelihood is that we will not lynch Jillynne today. Right now there isn't the support for it. So why don't you figure out the next best lynch and tell us who it is and why. At least then you'll be doing something.

[ace5993]

Please ISO me in this game. Because I active lurked like a beast, had a ton of people pressuring me (including Fate, of all people) and STILL kept on active lurking.

You were actually trying to appear like you were posting game content though. Jil is not even trying to do so. Every single thing she's said past RVS has been in response to a question/not game related, that's not active lurking because there's no scum motivation behind doing so. Whatever you want to call her posts, it's terribly obvious that she isn't trying to actively lurk, she just isn't playing the game. I still don't buy your case on her AT ALL, I don't see anything other than you trying to take what is obviously a policy lynch on a disinterested/not capable of playing properly player and trying to turn it into a real case. THAT IS SCUMMY.

PREVIEW EDIT: +1 to everything foil said on the matter. Also I did post my thoughts on the nintendo case, as I said, I'm waiting for him to defend himself further before I post anything substantial, I'd advise anyone else who thinks he's town to do the same here.