Mini 1190: Game over

[TBuG]

Er.

Unvote

because it would be really easy to pin a seventh vote on and I want a claim first.

[TBuG]

Unvote

Because I didn't technically have it at the start of the line and I'm paranoid.

[Empking]

Toro: You should act as if you were on L-1.

[Hoppster]

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

Do you know for sure that Empking is Miller? No.

Do I? No. Although as I've said before I'm certain he's not.

Okay.

Let me explain to you why that is scum-logic.

Your reasoning for not voting Empking earlier seems to have been (as I did think it was, but I wanted to clarify) that there remained a possibility that he was actually a Miller.

That completely fails to take into account basic town logic, which I will now explain in the spoiler in a wholly intentionally patronising manner.

Spoiler: BASIC TOWN LOGIC EXPLAINED

Section 1: Uninformed majority

Mafia is, as I understand it, the informed minority against the uninformed majority.

For the sake of keeping it simple (and we really do need to do that quite clearly), I will assume that you are town (ie. the uninformed majority).

As the uninformed majority, apart from certain circumstances (which we shall not go into in this [and I shall pretend do not exist] - let's keep it simple, after all) we do not know for sure who is in the informed minority and who is in the uninformed majority. We can make judgements, but we will never know for certain - there will always be a chance we are wrong.

KEY POINT FROM SECTION 1: There will always be a chance that somebody (who is not you) could be uninformed majority OR informed minority.

Section 2: Voting (and the voted)

So, you vote for who you think is the informed minority. Using our knowledge from Section 1, however, we also know that whoever we do vote will always have a chance of being the uninformed majority OR the informed minority.

KEY POINT FROM SECTION 2: Whoever we vote always has a chance of being uninformed majority OR informed minority.

Section 3: Truth

The uninformed majority can be assumed to be, by and large, truthful whenever possible (bearing in mind we're keeping things simple). It is the informed minority who lie (having knowledge to hide).

KEY POINT FROM SECTION 3: The uninformed majority are truthful.

Section 4: Normalcy

Scum Millers.

No.

KEY POINT FROM SECTION 4: There are no people in the informed minority who are Millers.

Section 5: Tying everything together (with context)

.........................

> 5.1 Toro vs. Empking

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as

there is a chance still he actually is Miller

. I won't make a final decision on what Empking is until I've read him better down the road. As of now I'm going to re-read back through the thread and look at all of the different conflicts going on.

1. Using what we know from Section 1 and 2, we know that Empking does indeed have a chance of being town (aka uninformed majority).
   
2. Using what we know from Section 3, we know that if Empking is town, he probably is a Miller as he claims to be.
   
3. Using what we know from Section 4, we know that if Empking is a Miller, he is not scum (informed minority).

And now using point

b

together with point

c

, we can logically conclude that if Empking is not a Miller, he must be scum.

How? Well, if he's not a Miller, that means he's not being truthful. But we know that townies are truthful. Therefore he is not a townie. Therefore he is scum.

That was easy, wasn't it?

So, by saying there's a chance Empking is a Miller, you're actually saying there's a chance that he is town.

But we already know that (see Section 1)!

So, actually, you're not saying anything at all. It's like saying "I'm not voting Empking because it starts with a capital E."

You're just stating a fact. You have NO logical reason for not voting Empking.

.........................

> 5.2 Toro vs. Thomith

Thomith

- Posting thoughts on game so far. Thru #50. Not really contributing though. (Null)
- Still hasn't contributed anything. #62. (Null-Scum)

JUDGMENT: Is just coasting along echoing others thoughts and hasn't contributed, I think we might have scum here trying to lay low.

---------------------------------

Vote: Thomith

However, even if we do assume for the sake of argument that your reason for not voting Empking is logical (and really, it's not) then we run into an issue when approaching your Thomith vote.

As shown, your argument "I won't vote Empking because he could be a Miller" simplifies down into "I won't vote Empking because he could be town".

However, you have no such issues about voting Thomith.

But, don't you have any qualms about voting him?

We can use your reason for not voting Empking here, as it is equally applicable. Couldn't Thomith be town? There's always a chance that he is (see Section 1), just like there's a chance Empking is town (and therefore a Miller)!

tl;dr

- Umm. Just going to re-quote myself from an earlier post here:

Vote: Thomith

This is actually ridiculous.

Going to refer you back to your logic from avoiding Empking: "I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is

Miller

town".

Never played with a Miller D1 claim before. However, Empking is probably town by virtue of Captain Corporal being scum.

Is the claim scummy? Is it a town-tell? Is it neutral?CC

could

be idiotic town (but is likely scum).

What is the relationship between Empking and "fluff posting, possibly idiotic town" CC?

SK is definitely over-enthusiastic scum either distancing or being opportunistic (depending on CC-alignment - SleepyKrew is scum both ways).

In the last two quotes of Hoppster he is already backing down off of his CC scum claim, which convienently comes directly after getting some heat.

Don't be stupid.

I purposely oversold the scumminess of CC's post to try and get out of RVS and get discussion generated and to push my top scum-read at the time.

However, with Empking-scum, CC-scum's reaction to the Miller-claim would have been less "guuuuh?" (which is how it came across) because I find it unlikely Empking-scum would not have disclosed his plans to fake-claim Miller.

Thus, were CC scum, Empking would not be scum.

it can do but i am unsure atm, i voted because i dont think a miller lynch is really ever good day one and toro is pushing it badly.

Hold up, you know that Emp is a miller?

If you actually believed this was a point, you'd be unvoting Empking.


Ninja'd by PBug vote and unvote.

Had a vote in originally, but I suppose there's no harm in leaving my vote off for the moment.

CLAIM, TORO

[PJ.]

Ok, L-1 guys be careful, is there intent to hammer from anyone?

[PJ.]

Lol sarnath'd by Hoppster, Claim toro

[PJ.]

Oh wow didn't realize I had been on the page for 40 minutes without refreshing, nevermind.

[PJ.]

And since I'm on a 3 post streak I'll keep it going and quote myself.

I'm much more concerned with the reason he claimed, which is because he knew there is a good chance he could get investigated based on who he is.

The act of claiming miller is on null-leaning town. The reason as to why he did it is the concerning part. Toro's logic of "he could be lying" is shitty(as hoppster said) because anyone could be lying. The reason why he claimed was scummy.

[Toro]

I've claimed multiple times in the thread, go search for it.

[xvart]

I've claimed multiple times in the thread, go search for it.

Godfather?

[Sundy]

I've claimed multiple times in the thread, go search for it.

Can you elaborate?

[Toro]

I've claimed multiple times in the thread, go search for it.

Godfather?

Nope go look again.

[xvart]

Scum?

[Toro]

Scum?

Nope go look again.

[xvart]

It

was not

fail voting. Jeez, if I keep having to defend myself this much over small stuff this is going to be a very interesting game.

The point was you were called out for fail voting someone and you said you never voted that person and then asked if he meant another one of your votes, so from the descriptor provided you identified your vote on Thomith. I won't even get into the logistics behind the legitimacy of a vote you don't even remember.

And now using point

b

together with point

c

, we can logically conclude that if Empking is not a Miller, he must be scum.

How? Well, if he's not a Miller, that means he's not being truthful. But we know that townies are truthful. Therefore he is not a townie. Therefore he is scum.

That was easy, wasn't it?

You really needed a spoilered wall post with logical truth table analysis to provide us with this? When exactly start believing that Toro was scum? From my perspective you and him have been dancing around each other all day with respect to your reads on each other.

Toro's logic of "he could be lying" is shitty(as hoppster said) because anyone could be lying. The reason why he claimed was scummy.

Be careful giving Hoppster too much credit since he is likely Toro's buddy.

Scum?

Nope go look again.

If you can't tell from now I really have no intention of going back to look for your claim. I really don't even care what your claim is. If you had legitimately claimed I would have noticed it; and if it is some stenography or cryptology then it is probably a scum breadcrumb in case everything went south.

[Toro]

But you found it.

[PJ.]

Dude, claim flat out or someone just hammer him. If he left breadcrumbs that's for him to point out after he claims or gets counter-claimed.

[xvart]

Relevant.

[xvart]

He's probably stalling to give one of his partners the opportunity to bus/hammer him.

[Elfen]

Seriously >:/ Enough bull shitting around. It annoys me when people do that. Either reclaim or something since most of us didn't know you did. And im willing to hammer away. Even though its going on what i said, But the people who have not posted much will have to wait for now. Does any one care if I hammer, cause its getting quite annoying. And if Emp is telling the truth, I doubt the Mafia will kill him since he is causing such hysteria between us. I really don't know about him. :/(Emp)

Also. Sorry, its fathers day and all :/... I also found my new pairing sooo yeah :/



PRE EDIT So do you want me to hammer so no one else does?

[PJ.]

I'm okay with it if he doesn't claim in the next couple hours

[Toro]

Let me give you hints, 15, 36, 43.

[PJ.]

I'm not looking, claim full or be hammered

[Toro]

So you're too lazy to look, this

is

a very interesting game.

[PJ.]

Okay, you're a vig, I don't buy breadcrumbs done over 100 posts into the game cause they seem just thrown together, alsoVig is a SUPER common fake claim.

Not buying it.

Hammer away.