Newbie 1117(Town Wins)

[SomeRandomGuy]

@SRG: I see where you're coming from; however, Kad looks town to me. His posts would definitely be scummy for someone with more experience, but I see them as newbie-tells. Also, the "trying to see if mafia will hammer" thing from ISO #2 doesn't seem like something he would fake as scum.

Well that one is certainly hard to wrap my head around with more thought given, i don't see the benefit of it as scum, it's more the unvote simply because he couldn't test it that i don't like. It's that and the Quackerz suspicion / lack of information when he votes that has me. Saying that, when i ask myself 'Do I find him scummy' as opposed to 'do the things he's doing seem scummy?' i draw a little bit of a blank, similarly with the way I'm thinking on BB now. It seems they're both handing out these constant tells, but despite being pulled up on it, continue to do so with almost no hesitation - the 'new to the game' argument really does cover some of it, but i'd hate to feel that it might be being exploited.

As for Toasty, the coasting to begin with caught my eye a little, the cases laid out are done so well and do make sense. Some of the points though are fairly well answered, such as the mention of a misrep from red, and the idea red was giving both sides of the argument. I need to read through again to get the full jist of the argument properly and will do sometime in the next 24 hours and give my thoughts on TT properly.

[Haze]

Can people, in their next post, say whether they think Toast is scum/town and why?

Muffin, why do you want to know what they think about a particular player? I have no idea if this is a norm here or whatever, but wouldn't it be advantageous for mafia to know who the townies in general are suspicious of and if that player if not mafia, try and push for a mislynch?

Like, this thing sorta reminds me of my rolefishing, I'm trying to to good but it looks like it might cause more harm.

[BBmolla]

Also, "I thought I'd get called scummy" continues to show a survival-oriented motivation.

Cool.

Do you have a response to this point? I think it's legitimate.

No, I agree with you, it was survival oriented. However, had I not mentioned it, it would have just been used as evidence of me being scum.

Verydark's reasonings are logical. I'm just terrible at this, that's the only thing not being factored in.

I'm getting a town read on toasty, but I think my reads are based upon aggression. Aggression just seems scummy to me, which obviously isn't how it works.

[BBmolla]

What's your concern with having different reads from other players?

Should two townies really get different reads most of the time? Just seems a bit odd.

Before I respond to this, one question: what players, exactly, have different reads from you?

All. Mainly the read on Toast.

[zMuffinMan]

I will certainly admit that I was letting the game move on its own for the first few pages. I wanted to see where the bbmolla-randomguy argument would lead, and I ultimately came to the decision that it was town on town.

Well apart from the issue of you coasting through the first few pages with IIoA, the issue I really have with this is that when bv pointed out you haven't really been hunting scum, you pointed to the post in which you called srg-BB town-town, as though this was a sign that you have indeed been scum hunting. But calling something town on town, and not having any scum suspects isn't scum hunting.

Yes, you said that you were making a list of your reads, but you still hadn't done any scum hunting prior to this. What I would have expected here is toast-town to say, "Yeah, sorry about that, but I am working on a post with my reads now" or something along those lines. What happened was what I expected toast-scum to do; a defensive reaction, as though it was a false accusation, when it really wasn't.

Here's some points in which I was scumhunting.

<snip>

The problem I have with these points where you were 'scum hunting' is that those questions are fairly generic, and you didn't actually do anything with the answers.

Scum hunting isn't just asking questions here and there, it's doing something with the answers (or lack of answers) to those questions.

yeah, he said he would manipulate other players, but has no need to in this game. Thats a big difference. Colbalt singles this out and changes it. randomguys response to his question was an honest one, free of manipulation. he's not trying to fool anyone and says, "yeah, of course I would manipulate players. Just not in this game, thats a job for the scum."

So it is a misrep--he makes it seem like randomguy said he could be manipulating everyone right now.

This isn't a misrep. You're taking a realllllllly big logic leap and assuming that srg is town and therefore it is a misrepresentation. If srg is scum, it changes things greatly.

It worries me that you are overlooking this and calling it a misrepresentation...

Oh, yes it is. He's appealing to both sides of the argument. As such, if one gets lynched, he has the opportunity to say: "well, I thought the other was scummy. So lets lynch him now."

This, in itself, is not really an indication of alignment. Townies do this. When you accuse him of chaining lynches, you're also making the assumption that the first lynch isn't going to be a scum lynch, and while you may have your suspicions about who is town and who is scum, I don't see how you could be sure of this.

Do you have a stronger reason for suspecting this is RC-scum saying this as opposed to RC-town saying this?

Yes. He had stronger reasons to vote srg, but votes the person with the larger wagon. What's the scum motivaion behind that? lol, do I even have to say? Getting an srg lynch is going to be much harder because BBmolla (sorry) has the weaker argument. Also, BBmolla has significantly more suspicion on him.

Again, this isn't really an indication of alignment. For example, if you're my #1 suspect and BB is my #2 suspect, and it becomes clear to me that there is no support for a toast lynch and there is support for a BB lynch, I'd put my vote on BB, no questions asked. It's called compromise. It's a good thing.

Of course, I'm going to argue for my #1 suspect's lynch, but if it doesn't go through, then I have no qualms with voting someone else.

I don't condone his use of gut, I acknowledged the fact that if gut is his most valid reason for voting BBmolla, then he should be voting for someone else. Gut is never a convincing argument because you can't properly explain that feeling you get with anything other than "I had a feeling." In other words, its not a case.

This is something I disagree with. Gut feelings aren't 'solid' by any means, but saying that you shouldn't be voting for someone based on gut is wrong. I'm a player that relies pretty heavily on intuition, just because I trust my own intuition, and while I can usually explain my gut feelings (or at least point to points that gave me my gut feelings), I don't fault others who can't do this. It may not be a good way to convince people, it may not be a 'case', but it's still a valid reason for put your vote on someone, in my eyes. Of course, 'gut' votes are still subject to scrutiny, but saying it's any less valid than any other reason to vote someone is wrong.



Anyway, will do an ISO of BB later. Just thought I'd post this for now.

[Haze]

Muffin, you're ignoring me.

Also, I really don't see how 'gut' could possibly be as valid as a case built with evidence. The whole point is to use 'gut feeling' or a 'hunch' as a starting point whereby you start to take action, questioning people, and thus scumhunting. And then any accusations which follow should have evidence.

Just because I looked at your posts and randomly said "you look evil to me" and "therefore you are scum" doesn't really make it valid reason for me to be voting for you.

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, why do you want to know what they think about a particular player? I have no idea if this is a norm here or whatever, but wouldn't it be advantageous for mafia to know who the townies in general are suspicious of and if that player if not mafia, try and push for a mislynch?

Like, this thing sorta reminds me of my rolefishing, I'm trying to to good but it looks like it might cause more harm.

I'm interested in people's opinions of Toast. I don't see how giving your opinion on Toast is an advantage to scum in any way. They

could

try to push for a mislynch on him, if he really is town and scum isn't in the people already calling him scummy, but so what? They could push for a mislynch on anyone, and their actions would still be subject to scrutiny.

Giving reads is a way of advancing the game. Right now I'm not particularly interested in the reads people have on players apart from Toast. I want to see what people have to say about him and why.

Just because I looked at your posts and randomly said "you look evil to me" and "therefore you are scum" doesn't really make it valid reason for me to be voting for you.

That would actually be a valid reason to vote me, but as I said, your 'gut' vote would still be subject to scrutiny, so if you did say that, I would be hounding you with questions about why you think that so I could understand any underlying motivation behind your vote. Also, 'gut' votes are still votes, so you are still accountable for your votes and reads on players, even if it is based on gut feeling.

[ToastyToast]

Nothing in mafia is 100%. I'm accusing redcolbalt of not taking a real stance, which I find scummy. You may disagree with me, but all his posts point to a certain attitude that says "wellll....i don't really care who gets lynched"

Also, my point was that logic should always take priority over gut. Redcolbalt voted BB with poor reason and had decent reasons to vote for srg. But he didn't. Why? because srg is at this point in the game considered by most to be a townread.

I will defend more later, but I really am not liking kad right now, and would definitely see him as scum over verydark (I'm going to examine his post more thoroughly but at first glance it redeemed the fail that he replaced.

[bvoigt]

What's your concern with having different reads from other players?

Should two townies really get different reads most of the time? Just seems a bit odd.

Before I respond to this, one question: what players, exactly, have different reads from you?

All. Mainly the read on Toast.

Hmm...I guess I see where you're coming from. But my other points still stand.

Also, my point was that logic should always take priority over gut. Redcolbalt voted BB with poor reason and had decent reasons to vote for srg. But he didn't. Why? because srg is at this point in the game considered by most to be a townread.

This explanation doesn't make much sense. Most people have a town read on SRG at this point in the game, but Red's post came at the top of page 4. At the time, SRG had at least two votes on him.

Also, if you'll excuse an IC-tangent: I recently read an good post here in Mafia Discussion. The "For Townies" section was especially interesting. For some players, gut is much more accurate than logic. Of course, it's hard to convince other players with gut, but it's pretty useful for scumhunting.

[ToastyToast]

Instinct begins an investigation, proof/reasons are what lynch a person. Once again, redcolbalt was getting scummy vibes from srg, too, yet he still picks bbmolla(gut, sheeping, poor reasoning) over srg (gut, original thoughts, some remnants of a case). Comprende?

[Haze]

Oh, ok, muffin. If you put it that way, I guess it makes sense.
But a different question. When you said giving reads is a way of advancing the game, why not just ask for everybody's read on every player in the game?
Also, how do you read toast? What're your hunches which make you want to know how other people are reading him?

I personally read Toast as Townie, while his excessive IIoA is a point of suspicion, he has provided analysis and is keen to follow up those who act indecicively (whether or not this is actually a scum read is another issue) specifically with DBK, RC and BB.

[bvoigt]

Instinct begins an investigation, proof/reasons are what lynch a person. Once again, redcolbalt was getting scummy vibes from srg, too, yet he still picks bbmolla(gut, sheeping, poor reasoning) over srg (gut, original thoughts, some remnants of a case). Comprende?

I actually thought Red's case on BB was stronger than his case on SRG. He also had reason to believe SRG was town:

Random, started scummy, but he has over the posts, kinda like showed me that he is to clean to be scum, he is willing to open up and explain his ideas without holding anything back. I still kinda think your "null"

And as I said in my last post, the sheeping/bandwagoning thing is not true. SRG had two votes on him at the time; if Red voted SRG, you could easily accuse him of sheeping with that vote as well.

[zMuffinMan]

When you said giving reads is a way of advancing the game, why not just ask for everybody's read on every player in the game?

Because I wasn't interested in everybody's reads on every other player in the game. Although you're free to give your reads on everyone if you want. I was only interested in people's reads on Toasty.

Also, how do you read toast? What're your hunches which make you want to know how other people are reading him?

I'm reading him as scummy, I don't really like his explanations, but I want to take a look at a couple other players before I decide on anything. This has been a really hectic weekend for me, and I haven't had as much time as I'd have liked to invest in this game, but I'll get to this tomorrow. Pinky promise.

[drmyshottyizsik]

.|Vote count 4|.

Haze-0
BBmolla-3(bvoigt, kad2361, verydark)

L-2

Redcolbalt-1(ToastyToast)
SomeRandomGuy-1(zMuffinManw)
kad2361-1(SomeRandomGuy)
verydark-0
ToastyToast-0
zMuffinMan-0
bvoigt-0

Not Voting-2(Haze, Redcolbalt)

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch

If there are any problems tell me.

Deadline is in (expired on 2011-06-30 09:00:00)

[ToastyToast]

Hm, any reason ur vote is still on SRG, muffin?

[BBmolla]

I know I'm at L-2, but could I just give my defense now? Even if I don't get lynched now, all the "scumtells" and such I put off which has caused a ton of FoS directed towards me is just going to cause issues later in more dire circumstances.

[zMuffinMan]

My vote is still on SRG because I'm lazy and haven't bothered unvoting yet and didn't even realise my vote was on him. Are you worried that he is going to be quick-lynched or something, Toast?

I'll move it when I read some ISOs which I'll be doing in the next couple hours.

[ToastyToast]

Can I not ask any question without you concluding that its scummy? I was asking why because you haven't exactly been suspicious of SRG since joining the game.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't recall saying you were scummy for asking that question. And I haven't voted for SRG since I joined the game, either.

[zMuffinMan]

OK, so...

kad has an ISO void of any remotely pro-town, and now hes gone into hiding.

verydark did a catchup I-want-BB-dead post, and now he's gone into hiding. On a side note, I think the only really valid argument you have against BB here is the vote/unvote on RC, which was.. actually really bad by BB..


RC said he'd be presenting a case some time last week (Thursday), and now he's gone into hiding.

You can be honest, guys... Is it my B.O.?

On another note, BB is reading as town. Newbie-town, but still town. Although I would like to see him stop caring about himself and start focusing on finding scum. I personally don't care what "defense" he has to offer in his next post, I'd rather see him start hunting scum properly.

bv can you do a recap of why BB is your top suspect now?

[Haze]

...I think we just have a very inactive crew.

I still reckon BB's silence as to actual scumhunting is comparable to TT's lack of posting. When you mentioned that he should stop being so concerned about himself, I went to view in Iso. If you look at it, maybe in the first 2 he answers some questions, and the rest of it is essentially him posting about how he shouldn't be hammered and defences, requests for FOS's on him and so on.

I actually see no proactive sort of scumhunting whatsoever.

Also, as more experienced players, I have a question. Would it be wise to push BB to L-1 and force him to claim, or do we wait for some responses in defense to his possible quicklynch?

[Haze]

Forgot to add that BB is also happy to accept others arguments, etc.

But then again, so is RC and all the other guys who've stopped posting. =S

[verydark]

@Muffinman (and everyone). I hardly posted then "went into hiding"- I just had a very eventful weekend. I guess I should have posted a VLA, sorry.

Verydark's reasonings are logical. I'm just terrible at this, that's the only thing not being factored in.

BBmolla continues to act scummy, I definitely get a scum vibe when he agrees with peoples criticism of him. I don't think it's him being pro-town at all, and more along the lines of "trying to keep a low profile". At L-2, he has the pressure on him and will either slip up or redeem himself soon.

It's still early in the game, so I'm still continuing to get reads on everyone else.

Happy Monday.

[bvoigt]

bv can you do a recap of why BB is your top suspect now?

He often shows an instinct for survival, answering the random questions even when he didn't like them. He did this again later on, admitting that he didn't say something because it might make him look scummy. He contradicted himself about his reasons for voting Redcolbalt. And as verydark said, despite having EpicMafia experience, he doesn't seem committed to any of his reads.

@Mod

: Have you prodded kad2361 and Redcolbalt?

[zMuffinMan]

Would it be wise to push BB to L-1 and force him to claim, or do we wait for some responses in defense to his possible quicklynch?

No.

If people actually want to lynch him, then yes.

But if you're thinking of putting him at L-1 just to get a claim, then no. That's known as rolefishing, and it's very anti-town. You want as few claims as you can manage D1 to make it less like scum hit a PR at night. Even VT claims help this (by PoE).

--

BBmolla continues to act scummy, I definitely get a scum vibe when he agrees with peoples criticism of him.

I think it's more pro-town to admit that you've done something that could be perceived as scummy than to deny it ever happened. This doesn't excuse it happening, but you calling that scummy is weird.

It's still early in the game, so I'm still continuing to get reads on everyone else.

It's not that early, feel free to give whatever thoughts you currently have.