Mini 1190: Game over

[Toro]

Doesn't admitting case on you is solid = claiming scum?

Doesn't saying we have an SK in the game also admit you're an SK?

[SleepyKrew]

Except I already explained that.

[Sundy]

It was solid enough to get me to L-1, wouldn't you say so?

When I'm town, i usually consider wagons on me scum-driven or bad logic.

[PJ.]

This SK thing is silly. If we have one, it's Toro(most likely)

I say we do two things, and please I want everyones opinions on this

Let's have a vote on whether he should shoot himself or not. If he isn't gonna shoot himself, Let's have a vote on who Toro should shoot.

I'll keep the vote count on the Vig shoot vote, unless TS wants to super awesome mod and keep two counts.

I personally want Toro to himself so

Yes on Self-Vig

As far as the real lynch goes, I think we need to all get off Toro. Cause We have him in our pocket at this point. We'll just lynch him at our leisure.

Elfen is a Village Idiot

Jakesh, has done nothing but lurk and throw some scummy votes down.

Vote:Jakesh

[Empking]

Not himself, he can become pretty much confirmed town.

[PJ.]

Self-Vig Vote count

Yes(1): Panzer
No(1): Empking
Abstain(10):Everyone else beside Toro cause he doesn't get a say

[TBuG]

*sigh* Fiiine.

Unvote

Uh. Why should Toro self-vig himself? My vote is hell the fuck no.

No self-vig

. As I've said, Toro should vig someone he thinks is scummy. In fact, I would feel the most comfortable if Toro told us who he plans to vig beforehand.

As far as the lynch goes, I'm leaning towards Jakesh.

[Sundy]

Absolutely no way town should vig themselves!

NO SELF VIG

vote: Jakesh

sounds reasonable to me, I was thinking along these lines. At least get some pressure and decent engagement going.

[TBuG]

Why in the hell did toro become a bandwaggon?

UNVOTE: Toro

someone explain to me as I think the reasons I have read all jumbled and absolutely ridiculous. Explain, now please.

VOTE: Toro

because I can.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaah...

Vote: jakesh

[PJ.]

I'm gonna go ahead and call that a wash for the No-Self Vig crew

Vig:Elfen

I know it's a village idiot spot, but that's essentially what vigs are for. Hitting guys that could be scum but we don't have any real evidence towards because they are idiots.

[Sundy]

Since Elfen is getting replaced, it makes sense to hear from his replacement first before sealing his fate, yes?

[PJ.]

I have a firm belief on replacements that can't change what their predecessor did, and unless they are a lurker replacement they should be lynched off. Generally players that are playing a good town game don't replace out.

[TBuG]

How's about we stop telling the claimed vig who they can and can't vig?

Additionally, I agree with Sundy. I'd like to hear from the replacement. I completely disagree with Panzer's stance on replacements *shrug*

[xvart]

Okay, you're a vig, I don't buy breadcrumbs done over 100 posts into the game cause they seem just thrown together,

alsoVig is a SUPER common fake claim.

It is? Since when? It's a super risky thing to claim and very hard to reproduce long term, unless he is a SK. But, Toro, say there is a RBer and you get blocked tonight while trying to use your vig kill. Do you get it the next night or is it wasted?

The biggest problem I have with the breadcrumbs and the claim is the reluctance to disclose it. Why was such effort put into making us find it? Some Socrates revelation? In my experience, scum are more likely to create such a cryptic breadcrumb because it will most likely be missed and can be used if absolutely necessary. And with such a casual phrase why was it only used after getting pressure? Why not in the first post (i.e. "hi guiz, I bet this will be a very interesting game.")

The other question is why Toro stirred up such a ruckus about Empking being a miller when he could have evaluated that during the night and vigged him based on his formed opinion? What was the point of stirring the pot on a wagon that wasn't fairly definitively not going to go anywhere?

Wtf... I just read the first post.. it has the wincon on it D< Mainly I asked for it cause i have seen when a mod didn't give wincon and to drive out scum, one of the dudes asked for it hoping some one would choke and say they did and all >_> And no, that was not to the wincon thingy

Elfen is town just based on this and regardless no scum would fish for colors and such.

Somebody hasn't been reading my posts.

You're suspicious of me as well, which means you've theoretically been (or perhaps should have been) through my ISO as well.

FoS: xvart

And you point is what? You've been dancing around Toro all day and then you bust out this big post that goes into excessive details that essentially breakdowns to common sense and launch onto the wagon. It really seems to like over justifying joining. If Toro is scum you definitely are. However, you are also scum independent of his scum level due to the dancing and unable to take a stand on the wagon. Even if Toro is not mafia aligned your behavior can be seen as someone weighing in on the wagon with soft support while questioning it along the way; then launching onto it when it seems too good to be true.

Mafia One-Shot Vigilante is a normal role. I think it's safer if we tie Toro to a certain specific target, whether that be himself or a lurker. (I'd prefer it to be himself, seeing as lurkers can be replaced.)

I think I've seen one mafia vig and it was a large them (I think). I highly doubt there is a mafia one shot vig in a mini normal all things considered. And the directing a vig kill to a single person is highly scummy due to the influence scum have in the night actions.

Despite what I said after the first quote based on the way the breadcrumbs were laid and the way it was revealed I still think Toro is scum. However, I'm willing to see the night action resolutions and I think I see some pro-town benefits of leaving him alive regardless of his alignment.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hoppster

[Toro]

It is? Since when? It's a super risky thing to claim and very hard to reproduce long term, unless he is a SK. But, Toro, say there is a RBer and you get blocked tonight while trying to use your vig kill. Do you get it the next night or is it wasted?

I apparently only have one shot, so I'm assuming it's only one chance to use it.

[xvart]

It seems like a pretty good question to ask the moderator.

[xvart]

Actually wait. Don't answer that in thread but if you are town it would be best for only you to know.

[SleepyKrew]

Fine, we let Toto live.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: jake
I'll just put that there while I read up on Hop.

[Hoppster]

Its not the case that lurkers can be replaced. Flakes can be replaced but not lurkers.

I'm fine with a lurker vig provided we tie down Toro to a specific shot.

But whae if scum has a roleblocker?

I miss your point.

I don't trust Toro to choose his own target, even if he is town.


Happy with self-vig or directed shot.

Somebody hasn't been reading my posts.

You're suspicious of me as well, which means you've theoretically been (or perhaps should have been) through my ISO as well.

FoS: xvart

And you point is what?

[1] You've been dancing around Toro all day

and then

[2] you bust out this big post that goes into excessive details that essentially breakdowns to common sense and launch onto the wagon

. It really seems to like over justifying joining. If Toro is scum you definitely are. However, you are also scum independent of his scum level due to the

[1]dancing and unable to take a stand on the wagon

. Even if Toro is not mafia aligned your behavior can be seen as

[3] someone weighing in on the wagon with soft support while questioning it along the way;

then launching onto it when it seems too good to be true.

What don't you understand about 'you haven't been reading my posts'?

For town, that's a pretty clear signal that you need to read my posts and stop being such an idiot.

The fact that you still haven't been reading my posts but are still fine with pushing me as a lynch is just... astonishing, paticularly when your points are all rendered moot if you stop ignoring my posts.

I've taken the liberty of labelling which of my posts exactly are relevant to which parts.

Spoiler: Wall of Relevant Posts. May be deja-vu for anybody who's actually been reading my posts.

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as

there is a chance still he actually is Miller

. I won't make a final decision on what Empking is until I've read him better down the road. As of now I'm going to re-read back through the thread and look at all of the different conflicts going on.

... Come again?

Of course

there's a chance he's town (and therefore a Miller), that's the situation WITH EVERYBODY.

Please... with this logic, you should never ever make a vote apart from a select few scenarios when somebody is confirmed scum.

Hoppster

- First post of his (which includes a CC vote) appears serious, kind of appears as if he's jumping the gun here. (Scum)
- #26: Calls out Sleepy for over-eagerly rushing onto a wagon. Contradiction. Hopp overeagerly started a wagon and pushed for it in RVS. (Scum)

JUDGMENT: Lack of posts doesn't set anything in stone for me yet, but he's leaning scum.

What? How is a serious vote in RVS scummy?

I am also not contradicting myself in

any shape or form

.

Even if I was overeagerly starting a wagon (and I firmly believe I was not), my overeagerness in starting a wagon and Sleepy rushing overeagerly onto a wagon are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not even being hypocritical, if that's what you're driving at. Starting a wagon and rushing onto a wagon are

very different things

.

My wagon was justified, anyhow. Or are you saying this is not the case?

Thomith

- Posting thoughts on game so far. Thru #50. Not really contributing though. (Null)
- Still hasn't contributed anything. #62. (Null-Scum)

JUDGMENT: Is just coasting along echoing others thoughts and hasn't contributed, I think we might have scum here trying to lay low.

---------------------------------

Vote: Thomith

This is actually ridiculous.

Going to refer you back to your logic from avoiding Empking: "I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is

Miller

town".

In fact, here's another lovely quote illustrating this:

Because here's the thing, it's not certain that Empking is a miller or not. I don't want to keep my vote on him throughout the whole day phase and potentially mislynch a townie.

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

You have 2 points on Thomith - Null and Null-Scum.

You have 2 Scum points on myself. You have 3 on SleepyKrew.

And yet you vote for Thomith?!

Empking

- Claims miller right off the bat, you all know how I feel about this. (Null)

Yep, that's right, I know you think it's... null? That's not how it looked earlier...

IGMEOY: Empking

^ Ie. MILLER CLAIM TOTALLY NOT NULL

FoS: Toro

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

^ See this, Empking?

Don't ignore it please.

(Takes into account even the 'Godfather claim'. I'm pretty sure I have read games in which somebody put themselves forward for investigation and the Godfather claim issue was likewise brought up, but the person was town, and I don't think I've actually read any games where a Godfather does it.)

Almost done with my post.

FML.

Going to sleep on this as Empking is making me seriously doubt my Toro read.

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

Oh shit, missed this.

At that moment in time I felt that Thomith was a bigger threat, I didn't have as many points on him as most of his posts were the same thing and I felt he was scum trying to appear active. Empking's play I was going to evaluate some more through time and then make a judgment.

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

My apologies for that last post, my computer screwed it up.

I don't see anything relevant really, do you? (Not being sarcastic I'm just wondering.)

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

Do you know for sure that Empking is Miller? No.

Do I? No. Although as I've said before I'm certain he's not.

Okay.

Let me explain to you why that is scum-logic.

Your reasoning for not voting Empking earlier seems to have been (as I did think it was, but I wanted to clarify) that there remained a possibility that he was actually a Miller.

That completely fails to take into account basic town logic, which I will now explain in the spoiler in a wholly intentionally patronising manner.

<snip'd. No spoilers within spoilers.>

it can do but i am unsure atm, i voted because i dont think a miller lynch is really ever good day one and toro is pushing it badly.

Hold up, you know that Emp is a miller?

If you actually believed this was a point, you'd be unvoting Empking.


Ninja'd by PBug vote and unvote.

Had a vote in originally, but I suppose there's no harm in leaving my vote off for the moment.

CLAIM, TORO

Mafia One-Shot Vigilante is a normal role. I think it's safer if we tie Toro to a certain specific target, whether that be himself or a lurker. (I'd prefer it to be himself, seeing as lurkers can be replaced.)

I think I've seen one mafia vig and it was a large them (I think). I highly doubt there is a mafia one shot vig in a mini normal all things considered. And the directing a vig kill to a single person is highly scummy due to the influence scum have in the night actions.

The only thing that could even be construed as justified suspicion here would be if you believe that I am scum and my faction has a Redirector or Bus Driver, with both being explicity non-Normal.

Or perhaps if I have full setup knowledge and know every single person's role.

You're also very convieniently overlooking anybody who's not me who was also trying to direct the vig-shot.

Stop being such an idiot if you're town, bus SleepyKrew if you're scum.

Fine, we let Toto live.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: jake
I'll just put that there while I read up on Hop.

More votes on this doubly-opportunistic scum please.

Toro can vig jakesh, I'd be down with that.

[SleepyKrew]

Okay, so I've seen you hopping on and off Toto, and voting me with terribad logic.
Also, how is that "doubly-opportunistic"?

[PJ.]

Whoa,

unvote,Vote:xvart

didn't even notice all that

I wanna see Toro vig Jakesh tonight.

[SleepyKrew]

Did I miss something? What did you notice Panzer?

[PJ.]

Its not the case that lurkers can be replaced. Flakes can be replaced but not lurkers.

I'm fine with a lurker vig provided we tie down Toro to a specific shot.

But whae if scum has a roleblocker?

Alright let them waste a night blocking a vig, instead of blocking one of our more important power roles.

Did I miss something? What did you notice Panzer?

Everything in Hoppster's post

Okay, you're a vig, I don't buy breadcrumbs done over 100 posts into the game cause they seem just thrown together,

alsoVig is a SUPER common fake claim.

It is? Since when? It's a super risky thing to claim and very hard to reproduce long term, unless he is a SK. But, Toro, say there is a RBer and you get blocked tonight while trying to use your vig kill. Do you get it the next night or is it wasted?

Most SKs use it, Mafia Goon sometimes use it, well any Mafia really. It's really not that hard to fake. I'll be happy to discuss it after the game because it's currently relevant to Scum/Sk's interest.

[SleepyKrew]

I still don't see it...
1 and 3 are true, aren't they?

[Twistedspoon]

I'll keep the vote count on the Vig shoot vote, unless TS wants to super awesome mod and keep two counts.

sorry, bro; I can only do votecounts

anyway, I wouldn't want to confirm a role Toro may or may not have to you.

Good news: Torquez replaces Elfen. Give him a warm welcome