Newbie 1117(Town Wins)

[SomeRandomGuy]

Well, it's early into the game, but we're about half way or more into the first day and so our reads should be starting to take form.

I'm not convinced Toasty is scum at this point, I understand the argument against him but I feel his responses make sense, Muffin you seem very focused on him and whilst he did offer a lot of nothing toward the start of the game in terms of scum hunting (and to be honest his questioning was very soft) it's not necessarily the scummiest plays we've seen from people in this game. It's not much different from the way some others have acted, in terms of not scum hunting. I still need to get a good re-read in (hectic weekend here too) but as soon as i do i'll have true reads to present.

One thing i find a little odd in his play however is that he obviously seems to believe i'm town, yet had hinted that if bv was scum perhaps i am, he mentioned my lack of mentioning bv in the early going, that was nothing i chose to do, i just didn't cross paths with him, yet at the same time we have toasty buddying up ever so slightly with me. I'm feeling that through seeds planted (whether purposely or not) if either bv or Toasty flip scum, i'm going to be quite the suspect. Now, this could just be me reading too far into this, however when i know my alignment i become suspicious of interactions with me, and a lot of the case on toasty is to do with votes on me or not put on me etc.

I know I'm at L-2, but could I just give my defense now? Even if I don't get lynched now, all the "scumtells" and such I put off which has caused a ton of FoS directed towards me is just going to cause issues later in more dire circumstances.

I have to agree with muffin here, I'd like to see something pro-town from you, as opposed to a defence on yourself at this point, we could all sit here defending ourselves all day but it'll get us no where unless we were to slip, and with the 'scum tells' you've been giving off, a slip from you isn't exactly going to cause much more suspicion than you already have.

[bvoigt]

Also, as more experienced players, I have a question. Would it be wise to push BB to L-1 and force him to claim, or do we wait for some responses in defense to his possible quicklynch?

Sorry, I meant to respond to this and forgot. As Muffin said, only put him at L-1 if you think he's the best lynch for today. However, @BB: if you are at L-1, don't just claim automatically. Only claim if someone not on the wagon is willing to hammer. Likewise, don't hammer anyone without a claim.

[kad2361]

I think BB is the best lynch for today, as many people already have other suspicions. I also think BB should claim because then we could match claims, but with F9 format, anything is possible

[SomeRandomGuy]

I think BB is the best lynch for today, as many people already have other suspicions. I also think BB should claim because then we could match claims, but with F9 format, anything is possible

It's like you don't even read the other posts and certainly not anything which is about you...

[BBmolla]

I'd scumhunt, but I'm not at the point where I can recognize any tells. That's why I haven't been contributing anything.

I've got a response, but I can't say it without outing my role.

Also Kad, claiming and matching roles is pretty useless considering there's a percentage that a role doesn't even exist.

[Redcolbalt]

Nothing in mafia is 100%. I'm accusing redcolbalt of not taking a real stance, which I find scummy. You may disagree with me, but all his posts point to a certain attitude that says "wellll....i don't really care who gets lynched"

Also, my point was that logic should always take priority over gut. Redcolbalt voted BB with poor reason and had decent reasons to vote for srg. But he didn't. Why? because srg is at this point in the game considered by most to be a townread.

I will defend more later, but I really am not liking kad right now, and would definitely see him as scum over verydark (I'm going to examine his post more thoroughly but at first glance it redeemed the fail that he replaced.

I do feel by placing my vote earlier that i did take a stance.
Im not trying to convince you that bb is scum, im going to wait untill he makes a mistake, then you will see that my case is right.
srg, is second on my list i didnt vote because to me, my gut takes pick over who i should hunt after.

[bvoigt]

@Red: You haven't posted much in the last few pages. Any comments?

[ToastyToast]

I'd scumhunt, but I'm not at the point where I can recognize any tells. That's why I haven't been contributing anything.
I've got a response, but I can't say it without outing my role.
Also Kad, claiming and matching roles is pretty useless considering there's a percentage that a role doesn't even exist.

What do you think is scummy? Even if you haven't figured out tells, you can still scum-hunt. Look for motivations behind words
I generally make a list and do a process of elimination to find early game reads.

@Redcolbalt: I would like your opinion on other people. Srg and BB you think are both scummy, and you've defended against me. What do you think of the muffin case and of the other players?
What I see is different than what you may feel, unfortunately. BBmolla was the easiest wagon to hop on (and still is), and I found your vote on him just as scummy as kad's.

[BBmolla]

What do you think is scummy?

-Extremely aggressive, pointing out a ton of FoSes, or just trying extremely hard to get a player lynched.
-Not contributing anything, adding in comments like "Yeah" "Okay" "Well cop might not be in setup" stuff that are facts as opposed to opinions.
-Claiming a PR and retracting without a clear reason.
-Buddying.
-Checking a cc as an investigative role.
-Take game a bit more seriously, as a townie is relaxed while the mafia is on edge at all times.

In general, a mafia either
A. Lurks because they're afraid of looking like maf.
B. Say a lot, contribute nothing.
C. Get really paranoid and yell.

I mean I donno. All the psychological reasoning behind what I find is scummy is simply because of spur of the moment gameplay, resulting in a lot more of scumslips. I mean just the other day we had cop ccs, where one "cop" accidentally gave two reports even though it was a day start and it was the second day.

The aggression in this game is really throwing me off.

[Haze]

...Soo, who're you going to apply those reads to?

You can quote as much as you want from the mafia wiki, but that doesn't really help the discussion at all, and isn't scumhunting either.

Also, the only "aggression" I see is from Muffin, and he's doing hounding whoever he thinks is scum and helping the discussion move forward.

What are your reads on people. Stop telling us you're not sure, if there are suss people, start asking them questions.

[BBmolla]

Mainly, scum on Kad and RedCobalt. Town on the rest. Also I didn't quote jack.

[Haze]

Sigh~

You're trying to say less to have less FOS right?

Might I ask why Kad and RC?

[verydark]

BBmolla, just keep digging, you're almost at 6 feet.

I'd scumhunt, but I'm not at the point where I can recognize any tells.

Ok, I'm a noob, but I understand scum tells, but it's funny because then you go on to provide a very clear opinion of what a scum tell would be...

-Extremely aggressive, pointing out a ton of FoSes, or just trying extremely hard to get a player lynched.
-Not contributing anything, adding in comments like "Yeah" "Okay" "Well cop might not be in setup" stuff that are facts as opposed to opinions.
-Claiming a PR and retracting without a clear reason.
-Buddying.
-Checking a cc as an investigative role.
-Take game a bit more seriously, as a townie is relaxed while the mafia is on edge at all times.

In general, a mafia either
A. Lurks because they're afraid of looking like maf.
B. Say a lot, contribute nothing.
C. Get really paranoid and yell.

Based on that analysis, I think you're on your merry way to scumhunting. I've seen a lot of the aforementioned in this game, but the biggest scum tell to me is simply not committing to a play style. You're all over the place in this game, randomly voting and retracting votes, getting overly defensive, contributing nothing, buddying...the list goes on- many of which you claim to be scummy behavior.

You've consistently used the "I don't understand" excuse, yet you seem pretty well acquainted with how to play, and mentioned your past experience.

The aggression in this game is really throwing me off.

This is one of the most non-agressive games I've played. This comment is lame.

Mainly, scum on Kad and RedCobalt. Town on the rest. Also I didn't quote jack.

Thanks for that in depth analysis. You're on the chopping block dude, work harder. Props to staying true to your scummy looking vote on Redcobalt earlier in the game.

I've got a response, but I can't say it without outing my role.

This seems to me like you're already preparing to claim, You've at least demonstrated in this post that you're not a vanilla townie and that you have some sort of power role. I don't believe in rolefishing, but now I really want to see where this is going...dropping a subtle hint like this is scumtastic, because you're trying to, again, divert attention from your actions by essentially "changing the subject".

My vote stays, I'm having a hard time placing a FoS on your scum buddy though.

[drmyshottyizsik]

bv can you do a recap of why BB is your top suspect now?

He often shows an instinct for survival, answering the random questions even when he didn't like them. He did this again later on, admitting that he didn't say something because it might make him look scummy. He contradicted himself about his reasons for voting Redcolbalt. And as verydark said, despite having EpicMafia experience, he doesn't seem committed to any of his reads.

@Mod

: Have you prodded kad2361 and Redcolbalt?

yes :p

[BBmolla]

Ok, I'm a noob, but I understand scum tells, but it's funny because then you go on to provide a very clear opinion of what a scum tell would be...

Most of these tells apply to chatmafia, which is veeery different.

Based on that analysis, I think you're on your merry way to scumhunting. I've seen a lot of the aforementioned in this game, but the biggest scum tell to me is simply not committing to a play style. You're all over the place in this game, randomly voting and retracting votes, getting overly defensive, contributing nothing, buddying...the list goes on- many of which you claim to be scummy behavior.

I feel different each day and play differently each day, that's about the only thing I can say.

Thanks for that in depth analysis. You're on the chopping block dude, work harder. Props to staying true to your scummy looking vote on Redcobalt earlier in the game.

Your welcome. I'd address this, but once again I'd have to claim.

This seems to me like you're already preparing to claim, You've at least demonstrated in this post that you're not a vanilla townie and that you have some sort of power role. I don't believe in rolefishing, but now I really want to see where this is going...dropping a subtle hint like this is scumtastic, because you're trying to, again, divert attention from your actions by essentially "changing the subject".

Changing the subject? I'm avoiding a subject because it'll out myself.

My vote stays, I'm having a hard time placing a FoS on your scum buddy though.

This comments my favorite cause there are two maf out there and you can't find either one.

FoSes on Kad and Red because they're the only ones playing as bad if not worse than myself.

[Haze]

...................That was a post full of defense. I'm still hoping for some sort of thing akin to analysis here.....

and playing badly is a pretty null read. But i think I'm the newest here??

[bvoigt]

FoSes on Kad and Red because they're the only ones playing as bad if not worse than myself.

Do you think bad play makes someone more likely to be scum? IMO, it's only indicative of experience.

[zMuffinMan]

[toast's play is] not much different from the way some others have acted, in terms of not scum hunting.

Actually, it is different. While others may not have been scum hunting, they weren't filling in with their lack of scum hunting with IIoA posts. The problem with this is that those posts are designed to look like he's posting content when he really isn't. This is totally different from other players, who are just not posting content altogether. The ones not posting content are still suspicious, just not as suspicious.

--

I'd scumhunt, but I'm not at the point where I can recognize any tells. That's why I haven't been contributing anything.

Scum hunting isn't about recognising tells. I don't use 'tells', I just read things and look at it from the perspective that they're scum and the perspective that they're town, and I assess why I think one or the other is more likely.

You don't need tells to scum hunt. You just need to look at things and figure out whether it's scum posting or town posting.

Actually it looks like Toasty already covered this in #207... Meh, I'm just writing as I read so waTevAsz

Mainly, scum on Kad and RedCobalt. Town on the rest. Also I didn't quote jack.

Elaborate, please.

--

@verydark,

Anything else you want to add to the game other than that BB is scum, scum, scum?

--

So at this point I want to look closely at kad, verydark and toast (yeah, I have a major hard-on for toast, what of it?)

verydark-toast and kad-toast make sense as possible scum teams to me, actually. Although I don't particularly want to go and look closely at this prior to any flips.

Also, I'm worried that I'm the only one who is noticing the obvious reason that BB is town. And it's a very, very obvious reason at that. Although possibly a gambit, it's much more likely to come from bb-town than bb-scum... Yet people aren't even commenting on it, let alone making references to it. Weird. And yes, I know I'm being somewhat subtle here, but if you know what I'm talking about, then you know what I'm talking about, and if you don't, then you don't need to know.

[ToastyToast]

yeah, I have a major hard-on for toast, what of it?

well, we are both made of bread. I may sig this.

[bvoigt]

Also, I'm worried that I'm the only one who is noticing the obvious reason that BB is town. And it's a very, very obvious reason at that. Although possibly a gambit, it's much more likely to come from bb-town than bb-scum... Yet people aren't even commenting on it, let alone making references to it. Weird. And yes, I know I'm being somewhat subtle here, but if you know what I'm talking about, then you know what I'm talking about, and if you don't, then you don't need to know.

Actually, you may be right. While I still think BB is scum, he's probably not the best lynch for today.

UNVOTE: BBmolla
VOTE: ToastyToast

[BBmolla]

Also, I'm worried that I'm the only one who is noticing the obvious reason that BB is town. And it's a very, very obvious reason at that. Although possibly a gambit, it's much more likely to come from bb-town than bb-scum... Yet people aren't even commenting on it, let alone making references to it. Weird. And yes, I know I'm being somewhat subtle here, but if you know what I'm talking about, then you know what I'm talking about, and if you don't, then you don't need to know.

...Honestly haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about, but I'm assuming it's not something good and not something I did on purpose.

Could someone explain the scum read on Toast? Is it just from the IIoA posts?

[SomeRandomGuy]

[toast's play is] not much different from the way some others have acted, in terms of not scum hunting.

Actually, it is different. While others may not have been scum hunting, they weren't filling in with their lack of scum hunting with IIoA posts. The problem with this is that those posts are designed to look like he's posting content when he really isn't. This is totally different from other players, who are just not posting content altogether. The ones not posting content are still suspicious, just not as suspicious.

You have a point on that as it goes, the reason i don't necessarily see it as scummy is because during my first game (off-site) or at least one of my firsts, the person who brought mafia to that site was playing and tended to offer alot of IIoA, in essence he was teaching us to play, then again i think we as a group probably had less experience on whole than the players in this game, he got lynched for it, infact he seems to often get himself in trouble for it but i don't think i've seen him flip scum yet.

that being said, that's there, this is here and i realise it can be a tell and certainly i feel i've offered some informative posts, whilst activly scum hunting in the early part of the game, something i feel Toasty could have done more of also.

The issue for me is that there were some soft questioning from his direction, the lack of pushing though is what i found to be suspect. He seemed to soft question a fair few people but stuck to none specifically.

...Honestly haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about, but I'm assuming it's not something good and not something I did on purpose.

I'd probably go as far to say it's something you're likely best not knowing

[zMuffinMan]

...Honestly haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about, but I'm assuming it's not something good and not something I did on purpose.

I'll talk about it after the game, but it's something that makes me think you're town, and that's all you need to know for now. Anyone who picked up on it knows what I mean, and anyone who didn't doesn't need to know. Discussion about it is anti-town.

Could someone explain the scum read on Toast? Is it just from the IIoA posts?

It's a combination of a few things. IIoA without scum hunting early on is one of them. I also think his case on RC is fairly poor and looks contrived. Also somewhat PoE based on town reads for me.

--

You have a point on that as it goes, the reason i don't necessarily see it as scummy is because during my first game (off-site) or at least one of my firsts, the person who brought mafia to that site was playing and tended to offer alot of IIoA, in essence he was teaching us to play, then again i think we as a group probably had less experience on whole than the players in this game, he got lynched for it, infact he seems to often get himself in trouble for it but i don't think i've seen him flip scum yet.

Like I said, I have no problem with teaching in these newbie games. IIoA is not an issue by itself. It's IIoA to coast through the early game while making minimal attempts to actually scum hunt.

He seemed to soft question a fair few people but stuck to none specifically.

And this is the other issue I have with his early play. The 'soft questioning' without any follow-up looks like faux scum hunting. It's easy for scum to do, because they can just ask questions and say they were scum hunting, but it's not a townie mindset - town ask questions wanting answers they can do something with, not asking questions for the same of asking questions.

[ToastyToast]

Unfortunately, I haven't been on this site long enough to say "I always do soft-questioning," but I can at least point to the fact that I encouraged the RQS, and the soft-questioning was more or less an individualized continuation of RQS. Ask a question, take notes, gather data, present a case. That sort of thing.

The "my case was contrived" comment I can't really defend against because he is my legitimate #1 suspect. I thought/still think redcolbalt was someone being overlooked. There was too much of a focus on srg and bbmolla, two people who I thought were town. He's also recently added the "active lurking" tell to my reasons for voting him.

[zMuffinMan]

kad/verydark reads plx Toast