Mini 1190: Game over

[PJ.]

Also, Why aren't you voting hoppster?

[SleepyKrew]

I am.

[Twistedspoon]

Votecount1.11

Did you know: All porcupines float in water

Sleepykrew(2) - Hoppster, Toro
Empking(1) - Jakesh97
Hiplop(2) - Empking, Vollkan
Jakesh(2) - PBuG, sundy
Captain corporal(1) - Panzerjager
Hoppster(2) - Xvart, Sleepykrew

Not Voting (3) - Captain Corporal, Thomith, Hiplop


With 13 Alive it takes 7 to lynch, 6 to no lynch.
The deadline is 6th July GMT 08:00[/b][/color][/size]

[Empking]

I'm still voting two people.

Fixed, ty

[Captain Corporal]

Panzer, I'm not a frequent poster. Just sayin'. Everything else on your case on me I agree on. I have been slacking off and not scumhunting. While I have been keeping a few notes on people, I haven't really been working. My next post will have my reads, reasoning, and whatever in it. Although it'll have to come in over 12 hours, though, I can't construct a case on a mobile device.

Also, I will be V/LA from Friday till Sunday. Australian time.

[vollkan]

Suspects:
Empking: I don't like the miller claim or the reason. I still think he is lying.

What is actually suspicious about it though - in the sense of being more likely to scum from scum-Empking than town-Empking? The reason is perfectly valid; if you are a player who is likely to be investigated, that's all the more reason for claiming miller (aside from, as EK also noted, it being the generally-accepted thing). Yes, he could be scum who claimed miller to pre-empt an investigation - but that doesn't actually make it more likely than not that he is actually scum.

Vollkan: I hate his scumhunting style and I feel it's competely arbitrary but that probably doesn't make him scum in every game, so ignore this.

Panzer, maybe I can change your mind on this:

1) Plenty of players will post lists of every other player, classifying them as "really scummy", "slightly scummy", "neutral", "leaning town", etc (or by just listing players in order of suspicion) My system is not fundamentally different from that style of ranking. The list that I post is essentially the same, except that the rankings are represented by numerical points.
2) The only way my system differs is that my reasons for suspecting people are always explicitly stated and easy to find, because they are signified by the addition of points. In other words, most people might say "This action is really scummy", which then will result in a player getting a scummier ranking, though it will always be unclear exactly how strong that particular scumtell was; my system just lets me clearly link each individual scumtell to changes in a person's ranking.
3) Also, the point values themselves are also not particularly arbitrary. In order for my system to have any credibility (and for me not to get picked to shreds when I use it), I have to ensure that the point values remain reasonably consistent. Thus, I will almost always give 5 points for ordinary scumtells, 7 points for moderately serious scumtells and 10 points for very serious scumtells. I don't pretend that this is an exact science, and I'll readily admit that I do manipulate the points in my scum games, but, on the whole, it's certainly no less arbitrary than when most people say "this action is scummy", without specifying any degree of magnitude for that scumtell.

[SleepyKrew]

Please volkan and Panzer, leave that in MD/PM.

[Twistedspoon]

Hiplop has replaced Torquez/Elfen.

Give him a well warmcome

in other news, Jakesh has a had a small prod.

[Hoppster]

Okay, so I've seen you hopping on and off Toto, and voting me with terribad logic.
Also, how is that "doubly-opportunistic"?

HEY I'M-A GONNA HOP ON LARGE FORMING WAGON BUT ALSO LEAVE MYSELF ROOM TO JUMP ON A HOPPSTER WAGON IF IT GETS SUPPORT

Explain how my reason for voting you was bad.

when you don't try and explain how I am misinformed or explain your behavior and instead just post your ISO is scummy. On the other hand, you labeling all your posts with their scummy behavior is helpful.

I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you. You're not - you're attitude is clearly "well I don't need to bother trying because he didn't explain", which is either a terrible-town attitude or a scum attitude.

You're obviously not even trying to read what I'm helpfully laying out for you. You're basically just trying to smear me now and you're not even trying to scum-hunt.

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

This is pretty interesting in the fact that you are using the scum knowledge tell (scum know who is not scum) only you are using it backwards. You are asking how Toro knows that Thomith is scum; so unless

you think Toro is bussing Thomith

this isn't even a tell. It's backwards; and if you think he is bussing you should have been voting either of them; but at the time of this post you are voting SleepyKrew while only FoSing Toro.

Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No.

I'm not somebody who changes his vote every time he sees what he thinks is a scum-tell, because that would be stupid. You're dropping loads, but SleepyKrew has been taking priority because he is more obvious scum. In this case, I thought it was a scum-tell and thusly pressed (yes, I'm not an idiot, I did realise it would mean Thormith is scum as well), but believed SleepyKrew was still likelier scum taking everything into account.

These points, and the earlier point about "Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this" warrant a

Hoppster+7

, contigent (upwards or downwards) on how he explains his apparent shifting of position on Toro.

Spoiler: Context for Wall of Relevant Posts

And you point is what?

[1] You've been dancing around Toro all day

and then

[2] you bust out this big post that goes into excessive details that essentially breakdowns to common sense and launch onto the wagon

. It really seems to like over justifying joining. If Toro is scum you definitely are. However, you are also scum independent of his scum level due to the

[1]dancing and unable to take a stand on the wagon

. Even if Toro is not mafia aligned your behavior can be seen as

[3] someone weighing in on the wagon with soft support while questioning it along the way;

then launching onto it when it seems too good to be true.

Spoiler: Wall of Relevant Posts, annotated in blue

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as

there is a chance still he actually is Miller

. I won't make a final decision on what Empking is until I've read him better down the road. As of now I'm going to re-read back through the thread and look at all of the different conflicts going on.

... Come again?

Of course

there's a chance he's town (and therefore a Miller), that's the situation WITH EVERYBODY.

Please... with this logic, you should never ever make a vote apart from a select few scenarios when somebody is confirmed scum.

Hoppster

- First post of his (which includes a CC vote) appears serious, kind of appears as if he's jumping the gun here. (Scum)
- #26: Calls out Sleepy for over-eagerly rushing onto a wagon. Contradiction. Hopp overeagerly started a wagon and pushed for it in RVS. (Scum)

JUDGMENT: Lack of posts doesn't set anything in stone for me yet, but he's leaning scum.

What? How is a serious vote in RVS scummy?

I am also not contradicting myself in

any shape or form

.

Even if I was overeagerly starting a wagon (and I firmly believe I was not), my overeagerness in starting a wagon and Sleepy rushing overeagerly onto a wagon are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not even being hypocritical, if that's what you're driving at. Starting a wagon and rushing onto a wagon are

very different things

.

My wagon was justified, anyhow. Or are you saying this is not the case?

Thomith

- Posting thoughts on game so far. Thru #50. Not really contributing though. (Null)
- Still hasn't contributed anything. #62. (Null-Scum)

JUDGMENT: Is just coasting along echoing others thoughts and hasn't contributed, I think we might have scum here trying to lay low.

---------------------------------

Vote: Thomith

This is actually ridiculous.

Going to refer you back to your logic from avoiding Empking: "I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is

Miller

town".

In fact, here's another lovely quote illustrating this:

Because here's the thing, it's not certain that Empking is a miller or not. I don't want to keep my vote on him throughout the whole day phase and potentially mislynch a townie.

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

You have 2 points on Thomith - Null and Null-Scum.

You have 2 Scum points on myself. You have 3 on SleepyKrew.

And yet you vote for Thomith?!

Empking

- Claims miller right off the bat, you all know how I feel about this. (Null)

Yep, that's right, I know you think it's... null? That's not how it looked earlier...

IGMEOY: Empking

^ Ie. MILLER CLAIM TOTALLY NOT NULL

FoS: Toro

^ This is relevant to [1] because I am making my suspicion of Toro very, very clear - I'm not 'dancing' around him at all and to say that is just stupid.

It is slightly relevant to [2] because it's when I first began to think that Toro might just be an idiot (expanded on later).

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

^ This is relevant to [1] because I am, again, making my Toro read very, very clear. Yes, it's changed, but changing your mind is not a scum-tell.

This is relevant to [2] because the post I began typing up contained the spoiler that xvart says is containing only excessive details and common sense. Well, that's the point of it, stupid. I was trying to show Toro-town why he was wrong (yet also at the same time justifying my town-read of Toro), but as I finalised the post I began to doubt myself, as for Toro-town to essentially do what I was saying he was doing... well, he would have to be quite stupid indeed.

It is relevant to [3] because I am not supporting the wagon. To say so is idiotic.

Empking, I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town now (and am retracting my FoS for the time being).

Writing up a post now, but I want you thoughts on that while I'm typing it up.

^ See this, Empking?

Don't ignore it please.

(Takes into account even the 'Godfather claim'. I'm pretty sure I have read games in which somebody put themselves forward for investigation and the Godfather claim issue was likewise brought up, but the person was town, and I don't think I've actually read any games where a Godfather does it.)

Almost done with my post.

^ See my reasoning for last post, except on a greater scale because I am repeating myself (and enlarging font size) for emphasis.

FML.

Going to sleep on this as Empking is making me seriously doubt my Toro read.

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

^ This is relevant to [1] because it's quite clearly the defining point at which I begin to come around to Toro-scum.

It is very, very relevant to [2] (although I only just realised that), because I am trying to understand Toro further, to ensure that I have made the correct judgement about / interpretation of his posts.

It's relevant to [3] because, again, I am not supporting the wagon, I'm just following a line of questioning. Admittedly I am potentially setting up for a move onto the wagon (in fact, I was in a way), however it is clearly pending results of questioning.

I've actually got Toro down as arrogant-and-

oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects

-town

^ This is relevant to [1] because I'm not 'dancing' at all; I'm not afraid to say what my Toro read was.

Kinda relevant to [3] because this post is not in any shape or form supporting the Toro wagon.

@ Toro: Very

clearly

, I want you to say why you felt able to vote Thormith but not Empking earlier.

Oh shit, missed this.

At that moment in time I felt that Thomith was a bigger threat, I didn't have as many points on him as most of his posts were the same thing and I felt he was scum trying to appear active. Empking's play I was going to evaluate some more through time and then make a judgment.

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

^ Same as before (2 quotes above), really.

Okay...

Talk to me about this:

I'm going to be watching Empking more and more from here on out, I'm not going to place a vote down on him to start a bandwagon as there is a chance still he actually is Miller.

(That's assuming you see something relevant to talk about. If not, let me know.)

My apologies for that last post, my computer screwed it up.

I don't see anything relevant really, do you? (Not being sarcastic I'm just wondering.)

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

^ This is relevant to [1] because I am using the questioning to further my Toro read.

It is relevant to [2] because it is confirming what is later posted in the spoilers (proving my initial interpretation correct).

What exactly do you mean by "there is a chance still he actually is Miller"?

Do you know for sure that Empking is Miller? No.

Do I? No. Although as I've said before I'm certain he's not.

Okay.

Let me explain to you why that is scum-logic.

Your reasoning for not voting Empking earlier seems to have been (as I did think it was, but I wanted to clarify) that there remained a possibility that he was actually a Miller.

That completely fails to take into account basic town logic, which I will now explain in the spoiler in a wholly intentionally patronising manner.

<snip'd. No spoilers within spoilers.>

it can do but i am unsure atm, i voted because i dont think a miller lynch is really ever good day one and toro is pushing it badly.

Hold up, you know that Emp is a miller?

If you actually believed this was a point, you'd be unvoting Empking.


Ninja'd by PBug vote and unvote.

Had a vote in originally, but I suppose there's no harm in leaving my vote off for the moment.

CLAIM, TORO

^ This is relevant to [1], as I have a very clear stance.

This is relevant to [2], because as seen above, the spoiler was confirmed and my scum-read reinforced by my questioning of Toro.

It is relevant to [3] because it is at this point I lend support to the wagon. I don't lend support at any other points.

So, xvart, your points against me can only be justified if you explain the below:

1. Why is changing my mind scummy?
   
2. Why is feeling the need to explore my reads scummy?
   
3. Your third point is simply just wrong in all respects.

Finally, what do you mean by "for town." That sounds pretty definitively that you know I am town.

Is English your first language? I was going to make a derogatory remark here, but realised that would be rash of me considering you may very well speak Albanian as your first language.

If English is your first language, you're reaaaally stretching here and I assume that native English speakers on this site (probably at least of average intelligence if not above-average) will see this.

The gist is, by saying "for town" I am probably (indeed I am in this context) accusing you of being scum or stupid-town. (You'd have to be stupid-town to attack me without reading my posts, paticularly when I have commented that you need to start reading my posts.)

Either way, Hoppster is scum. And

if he flips scum then panzer has a very high likelihood of being scum with him.

Explain why you think this [the bolded text].

I don't get how you are pairing me and hoppster but that's fine.

You don't understand, but it's "fine" and you're not going to ask for reasoning?

Hoppster+7

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hopitty
Get it? I vote-hopped
Toto can kill jakesh.

Prediction: Accurate

Very, very keen to lynch either SleepyKrew or xvart today. Both are very, very likely scum. xvart is my slight personal preference, but I suppose in trying to detach my personal feelings from the game, SleepyKrew is probably the more likely to be scum. I'd be very, very happy to lynch either of them though.


Before I forget: in the horribly tragic event that I flip before xvart flips, you should bear this in mind:

Either way, Hoppster is scum. And

if he flips scum then panzer has a very high likelihood of being scum with him.

^ That looks awful like scum distancing to me (from my perspective of myself being town), as it's a convenient way for xvart to attack panzer and then retract all suspicion with the click of a finger.

[SleepyKrew]

I didn't vote you at first because I wanted to let you vs. xvart play out. I mentioned I'd be looking into you, didn't I (and you accused me of being "doubly-opportunistic" for it)? Anyway, xvart won.

[vollkan]

Hoppster-7

. Having it stepped through in the wall format clarifies it. The FOS --> Arrogant Town --> Suspicion looks bad in isolation, but I'm not prepared to hold you scummy for it, given your explanation.

[hiplop]

hey, just checking in. Ill go read through the thread now,

UNVOTE: if i had any votes on, want to start with a clean slate etc etc

[Thomith]

Empking: I don't like the miller claim or the reason. I still think he is lying.

Really? so you would have prefered if he stayed quiet untill the cop investigated him which COULD have been in LYLO and screw town over? Why do people think the claim is scummy, i don't see why.

and Volkan is scummy because he uses a different scumhunting approach? how does this work either?

[Empking]

Empking: I don't like the miller claim or the reason. I still think he is lying.

Really? so you would have prefered if he stayed quiet untill the cop investigated him which COULD have been in LYLO and screw town over? Why do people think the claim is scummy, i don't see why.

Ugh. It pains me to do this but

FOS: Thomith

- He seems to know I'm town.

[xvart]

Given the re-explanation I'm not so sure. Just Hopps response seem really good, and I figured you were scum pushing his lynch

I'm going to need more detail than that on what exactly you didn't notice; because in the post to which you are referring Hoppster didn't say anything other than a big collection of his posts.

I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you. You're not - you're attitude is clearly "well I don't need to bother trying because he didn't explain", which is either a terrible-town attitude or a scum attitude.

You're obviously not even trying to read what I'm helpfully laying out for you. You're basically just trying to smear me now and you're not even trying to scum-hunt.

This is laughable since you are accusing me of "not trying" and while you do the absolute bare minimum to try and disprove my suspicions.

Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

This is pretty interesting in the fact that you are using the scum knowledge tell (scum know who is not scum) only you are using it backwards. You are asking how Toro knows that Thomith is scum; so unless

you think Toro is bussing Thomith

this isn't even a tell. It's backwards; and if you think he is bussing you should have been voting either of them; but at the time of this post you are voting SleepyKrew while only FoSing Toro.

Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No.

You didn't explicity say you think Toro is bussing Thomith; but that is the only conclusion that can be drawn from your statement "are you saying there is no chance that Thomith is town." You are asking Toro how he knows that Thomith is scum with the implication that he has inside information. The only way he would

know

that Thomith is scum is if he is a daycop or they are scum buddies together. Since the first isn't true they would have to be scum buddies together.

I'm not somebody who changes his vote every time he sees what he thinks is a scum-tell, because that would be stupid. You're dropping loads, but SleepyKrew has been taking priority because he is more obvious scum. In this case, I thought it was a scum-tell and thusly pressed (yes, I'm not an idiot,

I did realise it would mean Thormith is scum as well

), but believed SleepyKrew was still likelier scum taking everything into account.

And what's up with the bolded portion of this quote (which directly follows the previous one)? You try and admonish my argument that you didn't say they were scum together but then you admit that you knew that would be the case.

1. Why is changing my mind scummy?
   
2. Why is feeling the need to explore my reads scummy?
   
3. Your third point is simply just wrong in all respects.

1. Changing your mind is not a scumtell; but the degree of your changing read and the pomp and circumstance behind the changes is a scumtell.
   
2. I don't really understand your second point or what you are asking me to respond to, but that could just be because of my poor English comprehension and my failure of basic communication skills; however, if you are asking why it is scummy for you to explore your own reads the answer is simple: there is nothing scummy with someone exploring their own reads. It is scummy the manner in which you have done so and the effort it took for you to actually say what you were trying to say. It looks very strongly like you plopped down a long post of quotes with no explanation at all hoping I would back off just because it was a long post and long posts are always well thought out (although it did work on your buddy Panzer since he hasn't been able to articulate anything surrounding his unvote/vote and what he actually saw).
   
3. I'm sorry you feel that way. Your actions speak differently.

Finally, what do you mean by "for town." That sounds pretty definitively that you know I am town.

Is English your first language? I was going to make a derogatory remark here, but realised that would be rash of me considering you may very well speak Albanian as your first language.

If English is your first language, you're reaaaally stretching here and I assume that native English speakers on this site (probably at least of average intelligence if not above-average) will see this.

The gist is, by saying "for town" I am probably (indeed I am in this context) accusing you of being scum or stupid-town. (You'd have to be stupid-town to attack me without reading my posts, paticularly when I have commented that you need to start reading my posts.)

So what you are saying is anyone with above average intelligence will realize that when you said "for town" you meant "for scum or stupid-town"? That completely undermines your entire ad hominem because what you actually said and what you say you were implying do not align at all. When you said "for town" (referring to me) you were saying "for someone who is town" which looks explicitly like you know I am town. This is the inside information scumtell you incorrectly used earlier.

Either way, Hoppster is scum. And

if he flips scum then panzer has a very high likelihood of being scum with him.

Explain why you think this [the bolded text].

Panzer saw your big spoilered post with no content and no rebuttal or clarification and immediately voted me, with the only explanation "I didn't notice all that". When asked what he didn't notice he said everything in your post and also said later that everything in your response seemed good. What exactly? He can't articulate it because the only thing in your post is you accusing me of not reading and them labeling all of your posts to how they are relevant to each of my accusations. If anything, I would think your post would encourage more people to vote you since there was nothing in the way of defending yourself against the attack.

Plus, he thinks one of us is scum yet he is voting CC for some pretty weak stuff when he thinks he has a 50/50 shot of hitting scum between us. And then he asks SleepyKrew why he isn't voting for you, which doesn't make sense to me since SleepyKrew is not on his scum list and why would Panzer be asking SleepyKrew (who he doesn't think is scum) why SleepyKrew isn't voting someone who Panzer thinks is 50/50 scum when Panzer isn't voting that person either?

[Thomith]

He seems to know I'm town.

No, i am merely saying this as you are a stupid lynch today as IF you are town we are basicly lynching someone who could have been cleared later on.

[hiplop]

I apoligize for this, its my rough notes, and it was written while reading the thread. Thought id give you guys my live thoughts etc etc

Toro - #90, too many scum/nulls
#96, being too townie, to be town – getting mad over small things, scumtell
107 is BAD pursuing hoppster way too much. All claims could be fake claims, I don’t see your point.
137 is ok for a post, agree with what hes saying. Though went a little too hard I think
139, Quickly jumps off – ill give him benefit of the doubt for now
146 BY pbug, pointing out a slip by Toro, it makes sense. You clearly said that its null.
Flailing in his assault on empking.
#1 scum atm
Manipulating the newer guys, definite scumtell
196 by panzer; he brings up some great points and I think he has a very strong point
LOLOLOLOLOL CLAIM, I cant see townies EVER being that rash about a claim, stalled for a while and used breadcrumbs. Not buying it.
Alright, so we believe him and can choose his target, I was originally going to vote him, but I like this way better.


Hoppster # 101 is :goodposting:, continues to post good town friendly posts – town read for now
#393 is a little too defensive for my liking
Panzer - Panzers play doesn’t follow suit with his scum-meta, leaning town and 103 is a great post. Actually, now that this has been shown to be a joke, it does follow suit with his scum meta, he tries to make small things look. Panzer flailing when confronted about the joke, doesn’t get obvious joke, continues to tell about how hes a serious guy –no fun, probably town though.
196 is a good post, rekindled my thought on toro.
249 is great, too. Panzer isn’t the most active player but he does add lots to discussion
Disagree about the bus, no chance are they both scum.
Hurt my feelings in 386 
Recent posts have been scummy, caring about his look too much it seems.


Sleepykrew – DOES NOT MATCH TOWN META, posting way too much for his usual play, claimed miller mason recruiter? So bad. Nevermind, it’s a joke. Still posting too much, may have just improved, but still doesn’t seem right to me.
Recent posts have been pretty bad, almost like hes trying to look useful. Null for now I guess, but have an eerie feeling that hes scum.

Empking – Miller, ill believe him for now. Hes gotta be town, been actively scum-hunting, pushing lurkers out of their dens etc
Now around 187, where he starts going for the godfather claim thing: this is very scummy, hes tunnelling toro way too much, it could just be his style but im starting to think something else is up.
Recent posts have been A+, #1 town read for now. Really cracking down on people/pointed out something great on Thomith, considering all possibilies. Definition of town pretty much

Thomith – something off about him, cant quite put my finger on it. All of his posts seem kind of clueless, I suppose it could be a case of newbiness, but it seems scummy to me?

Pbug – a little too inactive, but 146 is awesome post. Lots of great psts by him, nothing stands out much, but im getting town from him.

Sundy – bad post 230, comes off as newbscum to me(that post) Overall not enough content yet.

Recent posts: She seems like shes trying to scumhunt at least, town for now.
Xvart- great posts all around, ooze town

Captain corporal – ACTIVE LURKER ACTIVE LURKER. Not much to say about him

Jakesh - Lurker, not even active?

Eh, overall, Toro is the scummiest to me, but we can't really go and lynch a Vig now can we?

for now, im going to VOTE: Thomith just based on the fact that his play seems very off, not town motivated at all.

[PJ.]

@Hiplop: One game is not a meta.

@xvart: I didn't notice that most your case is based on things that hoppster has already covered(wall of relevent post), but you do make legitimate points(he's flimsy and seems to be content trying to work from a distance). They way you guys have been going at each other does seem like one is scum. I feel CC has much more damning stuff against him then either of you do.

Empking: I don't like the miller claim or the reason. I still think he is lying.

Really? so you would have prefered if he stayed quiet untill the cop investigated him which COULD have been in LYLO and screw town over? Why do people think the claim is scummy, i don't see why.

and Volkan is scummy because he uses a different scumhunting approach? how does this work either?

No, it seemed more that he claimed because he is prolific than because it was the right thing to do. He even pretty much stated so later. Something very close to "I figured I would get an investigation and I didn't want it to lead to a mislynch". That reads as scummy to me.

Also, I do find his approach scummy but I already admitted that it doesn't make him scum in every game.

@Vollkan:

Vollkan: I hate his scumhunting style and I feel it's competely arbitrary but that probably doesn't make him scum in every game, so ignore this.

Panzer, maybe I can change your mind on this:

1)

Plenty of players will post lists of every other player, classifying them as "really scummy", "slightly scummy", "neutral", "leaning town", etc (or by just listing players in order of suspicion) My system is not fundamentally different from that style of ranking. The list that I post is essentially the same, except that the rankings are represented by numerical points.

2)

The only way my system differs is that my reasons for suspecting people are always explicitly stated and easy to find, because they are signified by the addition of points. In other words, most people might say "This action is really scummy", which then will result in a player getting a scummier ranking, though it will always be unclear exactly how strong that particular scumtell was; my system just lets me clearly link each individual scumtell to changes in a person's ranking.

3)

Also, the point values themselves are also not particularly arbitrary. In order for my system to have any credibility (and for me not to get picked to shreds when I use it), I have to ensure that the point values remain reasonably consistent. Thus, I will almost always give 5 points for ordinary scumtells, 7 points for moderately serious scumtells and 10 points for very serious scumtells. I don't pretend that this is an exact science, and I'll readily admit that I do manipulate the points in my scum games, but, on the whole, it's certainly no less arbitrary than when most people say "this action is scummy", without specifying any degree of magnitude for that scumtell.

1) Having a constant list of you think is scummy is bad. I try to avoid using these list all together because it give town too much information. If you and 2/3 other players are constantly stating who the most town players are, they have a good consensus of who they should kill. And it helps them know exactly where they are on the radar, which is another very dangerous thing
2)So are most good players's reasons. Sometimes I commit this crime because I'm lazy, but everyone for the most part should do this.
3) This is where I hate it. The points are easily manipulatable because the degrees are subjective. Also, two people commiting the same scumtell could be two varying degrees of bad or even one could be a scumtell and one couldn't. Essentially with the point skeem/scoreboard, you can manipulate far easier. Also I feel it makes you detached from your vote. "I'm just voting the scummiest person, look at the scoreboard). It's an arbitrary easily manipulatable system based on rating things that are purely subjective.

Feel free to respond, but we should take this to a pm reletively soon. Just wanted to throw this up there so people don't thinking I'm shouting things I don't have reasons for.

ISO of CC when my girlfriend isn't here/awake.

[hiplop]

@Hiplop: One game is not a meta.

@xvart: I didn't notice that most your case is based on things that hoppster has already covered(wall of relevent post), but you do make legitimate points(he's flimsy and seems to be content trying to work from a distance). They way you guys have been going at each other does seem like one is scum. I feel CC has much more damning stuff against him then either of you do.

Empking: I don't like the miller claim or the reason. I still think he is lying.

Really? so you would have prefered if he stayed quiet untill the cop investigated him which COULD have been in LYLO and screw town over? Why do people think the claim is scummy, i don't see why.

and Volkan is scummy because he uses a different scumhunting approach? how does this work either?

No, it seemed more that he claimed because he is prolific than because it was the right thing to do. He even pretty much stated so later. Something very close to "I figured I would get an investigation and I didn't want it to lead to a mislynch". That reads as scummy to me.

Also, I do find his approach scummy but I already admitted that it doesn't make him scum in every game.

@Vollkan:

Vollkan: I hate his scumhunting style and I feel it's competely arbitrary but that probably doesn't make him scum in every game, so ignore this.

Panzer, maybe I can change your mind on this:

1)

Plenty of players will post lists of every other player, classifying them as "really scummy", "slightly scummy", "neutral", "leaning town", etc (or by just listing players in order of suspicion) My system is not fundamentally different from that style of ranking. The list that I post is essentially the same, except that the rankings are represented by numerical points.

2)

The only way my system differs is that my reasons for suspecting people are always explicitly stated and easy to find, because they are signified by the addition of points. In other words, most people might say "This action is really scummy", which then will result in a player getting a scummier ranking, though it will always be unclear exactly how strong that particular scumtell was; my system just lets me clearly link each individual scumtell to changes in a person's ranking.

3)

Also, the point values themselves are also not particularly arbitrary. In order for my system to have any credibility (and for me not to get picked to shreds when I use it), I have to ensure that the point values remain reasonably consistent. Thus, I will almost always give 5 points for ordinary scumtells, 7 points for moderately serious scumtells and 10 points for very serious scumtells. I don't pretend that this is an exact science, and I'll readily admit that I do manipulate the points in my scum games, but, on the whole, it's certainly no less arbitrary than when most people say "this action is scummy", without specifying any degree of magnitude for that scumtell.

1) Having a constant list of you think is scummy is bad. I try to avoid using these list all together because it give town too much information. If you and 2/3 other players are constantly stating who the most town players are, they have a good consensus of who they should kill. And it helps them know exactly where they are on the radar, which is another very dangerous thing
2)So are most good players's reasons. Sometimes I commit this crime because I'm lazy, but everyone for the most part should do this.
3) This is where I hate it. The points are easily manipulatable because the degrees are subjective. Also, two people commiting the same scumtell could be two varying degrees of bad or even one could be a scumtell and one couldn't. Essentially with the point skeem/scoreboard, you can manipulate far easier. Also I feel it makes you detached from your vote. "I'm just voting the scummiest person, look at the scoreboard). It's an arbitrary easily manipulatable system based on rating things that are purely subjective.

Feel free to respond, but we should take this to a pm reletively soon. Just wanted to throw this up there so people don't thinking I'm shouting things I don't have reasons for.

ISO of CC when my girlfriend isn't here/awake.

i read some of your other games, last game

[PJ.]

A) all my games are over a year old
B) Which games in particular

[hiplop]

A) i know, i had to search all your posts,
b) one was a mini-normal, not sure on the name/number, but it was near the end of your search history.

[PJ.]

CC

0:Random vote
1:Random questions- meh nothing good really but trying to start conversation
2: irrelevant
3: Major scum tell here, just says, Nice claim to Emp and doesn't take a stand one way or another. Just congratulates him really.
4: Contentless drivel about millers. Still no stand.
5&6:Contentless drivel, more about hating millers and not having played with them.
7: Forced to take a said by Hoppster and essentially takes no real side, just says it's null, not whether he buys it or not.
8&9: Contentless drivel
10: Just agreeing with people not really adding anything
11: back on to defending his questions
12:more talk about the stupid questions but not anything thast came of them.
13: "I like that you were scumhunting" Well CC, when are you gonna start scumhunting?
14:"I agree with this and I see the case on Toro, gonna read more" Still no original content.
15: defending himself
16: Toro is his only suspect and he isn't voting him. Why?
17: Essentially he just says, "I don't know how a feel about toro and emp" and takes a long paragraph to say it. Firmly placing himself on the fence
18: contentless
19 Said he's reading some ISO's and never really gives reads on those iso's then gives some town reads(no scum reads in site) Some basic mafia logic that should be obvious to everyone with a pulse. More defense of the questions
20: Says he wants to hammer, but he's not sure, some talk of elfen being replaced.
21-24: Absolutely zero content and almost nothing relevant to the game
25: Promises reads in his next post, Says he isn't a frequent poster(I think he has more posts than I do and it's in direct contrast to his early game). Also agrees with my case on him(which I haven't completely built yet).

He has more posts than Hopster, All the lurkers/replacements (Joe/vollkann,Ani/xvart,Jakesh) Sundy(who ironically has been lurking recently when his case on me was lurking, i currently have twice as many post as him), Thomith. That equates to about half the game and he says he isn't frequently posting when really what is happening is some active lurking, along with avoiding putting any content at all unless he is severly pressed. I like where my vote is at.

[PJ.]

A) i know, i had to search all your posts,
b) one was a mini-normal, not sure on the name/number, but it was near the end of your search history.

You can't meta someone from 2 years ago, people change

You can't meta someone from 2 games, Sample size.

You can't meta someone from a game that they made 10 posts in, sample size.

Meta in general is garbage.

FoS:Hiplop

[Empking]

A) i know, i had to search all your posts,
b) one was a mini-normal, not sure on the name/number, but it was near the end of your search history.

You can't meta someone from 2 years ago, people change

You can't meta someone from 2 games, Sample size.

You can't meta someone from a game that they made 10 posts in, sample size.

Meta in general is garbage.

FoS:Hiplop

Why is all that suspicious?

[PJ.]

Panzer - Panzers play doesn’t follow suit with his scum-meta, leaning town and 103 is a great post. Actually, now that this has been shown to be a joke, it does follow suit with his scum meta, he tries to make small things look. Panzer flailing when confronted about the joke, doesn’t get obvious joke, continues to tell about how hes a serious guy –no fun, probably town though.
196 is a good post, rekindled my thought on toro.
249 is great, too. Panzer isn’t the most active player but he does add lots to discussion
Disagree about the bus, no chance are they both scum.
Hurt my feelings in 386 
Recent posts have been scummy, caring about his look too much it seems.


Sleepykrew – DOES NOT MATCH TOWN META, posting way too much for his usual play, claimed miller mason recruiter? So bad. Nevermind, it’s a joke. Still posting too much, may have just improved, but still doesn’t seem right to me.
Recent posts have been pretty bad, almost like hes trying to look useful. Null for now I guess, but have an eerie feeling that hes scum.

He's is drawing conclusions mainly from garbage meta, and I happen to know that Hiplop, myself, and Sleepy were all in a game together that just ended and have the sneaking suspicion that because his "meta" is solely based of that game, seeing as he doesn't have meta's on anyone else and normally Meta players will meta read everyone. I find drawing suspicions from irrelevent things scum because he trying to push the lynch of a townie based on fallacious statements and generally stir the pot.