DEFCON Mafia 3.0 - Over, American Victory!

[Swift Justice]

(Equinox)

I don't like the references you're making to "SCUM WOULDN'T TAKE THIS" for Espionage and Eavesdrop, but I'm going to sleep on that and see if my dreams tell me anything. That and I need to read you in detail, anyway.

Since you're saying that you as scum wouldn't have picked those abilities, what would you have picked as, say, European scum? As terrorist?

[ToastyToast]

weird. really weird. Is that really the only information you received? I find it highly unlikely, especially if they were throwning in "lets say random stuff just to throw them off posts." Odds are you would receive more than one post (isn't it like 15% success rate?)

[gorilla]

@SJ- Scum picks would heavily depend on organizing draft lists with teammates, probably, but I'd aim for things like espionage, fighter, aircraft carrier, submarine - things with strong benefits. Eavesdrop is literally useless for the scumteam in this game, a nuke would absolutely be more beneficial - at least would give me a free kill at DEFCON 1. As terrorist I'd probably take submarine for my free deployment since magua was so kind as to point that out and fallout shelter as my first draft pick because self-preservation would be my aim there.

oh man, remembered something I saw in my reading I meant to ask about -

@Toog - you said you were going to look into the RC wagon. Have you done that yet?

@toasty - like I said, they are very likely keeping communication to an absolute minimum, and worked out a code well before DEFCON 3.

[Swift Justice]

(Equinox)

For what it's worth, it was second on my list (espionage was first). There is literally zero reason I'd have considered listing espionage as scum in this game.

Scum picks would heavily depend on organizing draft lists with teammates, probably, but I'd aim for things like espionage, fighter, aircraft carrier, submarine - things with strong benefits.

Unvote, Vote: gorilla

[AurorusVox]

Goddamnit SJ I was just about to post that.

Unvote; Vote: Gorilla

Guess scum have got a reason to try to be martyred after all...

---

(On the other hand, this post makes it look like AurorusVox suspected SocioPath of being the terrorist this whole time, so some clarification in this arena would be nice.)

I do think SP is the SK. If we can get a decent wagon on him today then I'm all for it.

---

@MoI: This is a clanger worth voting for, and keep your eyes out for the bussers hopping on soon. His previous "clanger" wasn't a scumslip, because it was just bizarre from scum or town. This, however, is a bonafide liar-liar-pants-on-fire scumslip.

[Swift Justice]

(Equinox)

Gamma read the other half of my ISO in Open 302.

If you STILL think I'm scum you're just pathetic.

Townpost.

Vi of Wei, you're going to have to lay out your reasoning for this one.

I do think SP is the SK. If we can get a decent wagon on him today then I'm all for it.

When did you start suspecting that SocioPath was the terrorist?

[AurorusVox]

- Pooky: What made you want to post a detailed response to MoI? I thought you didn't believe it them?
- Magua: Why include Toogleoo in your list of potential scum when he's "probtown" according to you?
- Gorilla: If ML is 110% scum, how much % scum am I?
- SJ: Do you think walls are inherently anti-town?

I have answers to people from a few pages back coming up next...

PREDIT: @EquiSJ: When I realised that he wasn't playing like TownSP or ScumSP from the previous DEFCON games. Strengthened by SDC's point about the SpyX kill, and then super strengthened when SP started WIFOM'ing about it.

[Swift Justice]

(Equinox)

That list of questions... Seriously, AurorusVox? I'll let you get the answers to them, but I'd like to know your motivations behind asking PookyTheMagicalBear's and Magua's questions at least.

SJ: Do you think walls are inherently anti-town?

Inherently? No. Dude, you're talking to Equinox. I write and breathe the things.

What I

do

have a problem with is when the walls become not just a wall vs. wall battle but a WALL, REBUTTAL, COUNTER-REBUTTAL, COUNTER-COUNTER-REBUTTAL, WHY DID YOU NOT ANSWER THIS PART OF MY REBUTTAL war of words. I'd go so far as to say that not only is it anti-town, it's also scummy. In case you've forgotten Newbie 940, Nachomamma8-scum pulled me into the same type of wall war with him, basically alienating Thor665-town. What I was arguing made sense and could have won the game for us, but it got lost in the sea of rebuttals I was making.

Can town pull fellow town into a war battle? Sure. It happens. That's why I should be reading your and MagnaofIllusion's posts in detail to see if there is something like the scenario I described above going on or if it's just two wall-posters getting into an argument.

[AurorusVox]

1. Because going after the SK is a legitimate tactic right now. It IS different, and it's "scummy as hell" that you don't recognise this.
2. I've said Vi is possible white knighting me multiple times, and explained it. I also said CSL made that slot more likely scum kthx.

1. So going after scum of any sorts isn’t a legitimate tactic?
2. How did CSL make the slot more likely to have drawn a scum role-Pm, exactly?

I didn't say that it wasn't legitimate to hunt for EuroTrash, but I am saying that removing the SK has a far greater impact on the game that chipping 1/5 of the scum away. The earlier they go, the less NKs we face, which is a good thing. Pressuring one Euroscum but voting a SK suspect is different from pressuring two Euroscum but voting for the one you think is less likely to flip Euro. You're smart enough to realise there's a difference.
2. I think CSL's vote makes that slot more likely to be scum because: if Vi actually thought I was a townie like she earlier suggested, she'd have been able to share those thoughts with CSL in their hydra QT. Instead, if she

is

was WK'ing me, then she hasn't got the same reason to talk about why she thinks I'm town to CSL, and so CSL votes me without considering that slot's earlier play.

I don't like it, but I don't know what to make of it because I can't see scum asking to be nuked like that.

So you don’t like it and thus agree it’s a clanger. Your original premise was that scum would latch onto something like that and push for another mislynch while keep you around as a viable mislynch. Again – what does the complete lack of significant movement towards Gorilla say to you based on that premise alone.

Well, there has been movement towards him, just not as rapid as RC's. I know you're trying to draw me on saying it makes him likelier scum because his buddies aren't hopping on it - then you'll point out how I don't think he's scum and therefore make me disprove my own argument. BUT you should understand that the context here is that the clanger wasn't as bad, because there is no scum motivation to getting martyred, so that should explain the slower pace. HOWEVER, his most recent one - lying outright - is a 100% scumslip, so I'd fully expect more townies to start voting him and for his buddies to start bussing, so the wagon should begin swell as quickly as RC's.

Because his reaction (or lack therof) to the question when I’d clearly already expressed that rushing the Day was scummy gives an even better read to me.

In this case the fact that he completely ignored it compounds the scumminess.

So you thought he was scummy for it but you didn't want to "let on" that you thought that?

Feeling of rushing? On your part?

Regardless of whether you felt rushed attacking me for a stance that hadn’t happened yet is scummy.

No. I'm saying. Didn't HIS desire to "finish what we started yesterday" (posted in his first post today) tell you that HEZ wanted to RUSH today's day through? It has nothing to do with me feeling rushed. It has everything to do with how you didn't pick up on HEZ's attitude of rushing.

Let me ask you though – do you just accept that your Sub comments were scummy and that you made a clear Appeal to Emotion? Because

Don't leave me hanging here

I think my sub comments could be misinterpreted as scummy. I openly admitted as much when I made them ("I -KNOW- its a very powerful scum role, and this may sound really silly"). But they had good intentions.
I don't know which post you think is AtE? The one where I said I'd stay quiet for a while? That was probably an appeal to something. An appeal to the better judgements of the players voting for me, perhaps.

---

@IS- His iso 5 suggesting we let scum have the sub and that espionage is useless if scum has counteresp is hella dumb, stretching Pooky's I'm America because ____ to be rolefishing was bad, and the biggest thing IMO is his post with hop onto the RC wagon- His stuff about the helpful counterwagon isn't bad but everything else he votes RC for is related to him in some way- It looks like he's more concerned with RC's reads and comments on him than with RC himself.
There's also some stuff other people have said with similarities to his play in Defcon 2 mafia but you'll have to ask them about that.

(1) Does dumb=scum?
(2) I think there was some merit in my sub plan but it was foolish of me to think it would be listened to.
(3) Have I explained that I almost filled Pooky's "_____" in?
(4) Well of course my reasons were related to RC, because he was clearly not reading as much as he wanted us to believe. It's hard to argue that you're being misrepped/misread without the other person having bad reads and comments of you.

---

Did your mother ever tell you that it was wrong to point at everyone else when you yourself are at fault. "Everybody else was doing it" is not a great defense for drug attics, and its not a great defense in mafia either. You did not have a lot of reasons. I gave reasons, MoI gave reasons, all my town reads gave reasons.

My point is that you were saying I was "quick" to jump on RC when in fact I was not quick, I came AFTER a bunch of other people. I have to mention other people because saying I was "quick" ignores that, no, I was actually relatively slow to move my vote. Misrepping my point #1.

Your frustration came off as contrived. Its a matter of opinion that I can't really prove. I think you've played mafia long enough to know exactly what you have to do if town gets on your case.

Fair enough. I don't think I know exactly what to do if town gets on my case but there's little point delving into a theoretical gut opinion charade.

I read your games. One difference of opinion is not enough for me to be like "loliwasjk." My review of your meta suggests that if you are town, your play is subpar. In your town games, you do more than just defend yourself, and your attacks are significantly more descriptive.

It obviously depends on the games you look at. In txtMafia, my town play was subpar, in SAIII, I got myself murdered, in Cults vs Masons people thought I was scum. I hardly come across as obvTown in all of my town games.

Regardless of if you have a town read on IS, your question is basically asking everyone who suspects IS to get off your back if they are voting him. This makes no sense. What's wrong with suspecting two people? Why can't you and IS be scum together? Not to mention your basically telling a player what they SHOULD be doing, with an attempt to influence them in a direction away from you.

Not at all. My question is ONLY asking GG to commit to voting for who he thinks is scummiest. It has nothing to do with anyone else. You also make it look like I'm telling anyone who even suspects IS even a little to vote for him over me. That is not the case. Misrep of my points #2.

"Unlike Gorilla, I'm not useless" is a supporting statement for your thesis "I should not be lynched today" no matter how you arrange the statement grammatically.

Um. No. The grammar of the statement does change the meaning. How about if it was put like this? "Unlike Gorilla, I'm not useless. Also, I should not be lynched today."

Supporting point 1: I'm not useless---irrelevant to alignment

not sufficient in proving thesis

Fair point.

Supporting point 2: Gammagooey's bullshit--you're allowed to suspect 2 people

not sufficient in proving thesis

Misrep of what I said.

Supporting point 3: This is not my meta--if you know you're meta, you can manipulate it. Also, one disagreement does not warrant a throw-away of my PoV

not sufficient in proving thesis

Limited scope of meta searches renders meta arguments pointless.

Supporting point 4: Idk why people are voting me--so prove them wrong? Be more town? Stop being so passive-aggressive? Get rid of your survival instinct? There's a lot you can do, even if you don't know exactly why people are voting you

not sufficient in proving thesis

Fair enough.

Supporting point 5:Everyone else is doing it--do I even have to explain this?

not sufficient in proving thesis

Misrep of what I said.

In conclusion:
You make 2/5 fair points.
You make 2/5 misreps.
Meta is useless.

So I'd say we're even stevens here.

[Swift Justice]

(Equinox)

Okay, this is going to be real quick-like because it's late and I need to sleep. Also, I need to let the thread breathe.

I did a quick run-through of HezLucky's iso to look at his behavior between the HezLucky wagon, AurorusVox wagon, and RedCoyote wagon, but apparently I was seeing phantoms in the vote count because the difference wasn't as big as I thought it was. I'll have a better idea once I get around to updating the votals spreadsheet, but what I'm seeing from AlmasterGM's vote counts is a relatively small and static HezLucky wagon; the number never went higher than 4 votes according to the published vote counts, which means changes in HezLucky's levels of defensiveness aren't related to the pressure on him, which was what I was going for. HezLucky did a full reread of the game when the pressure was slipping (or slipped already) off him, which is plus points for him; I didn't actually read and cross-reference his commentary, though, so I'm deferring comments on the content of that to later. HezLucky was also fairly early on the AurorusVox wagon and didn't let up. HezLucky didn't have a read of RedCoyote according to his list of reads following the catch-up post, which is interesting and something I'll look into later, but right now I don't hold that against him.

tl;dr - I'm not interested in pursuing HezLucky at the moment, but I do need to read his big post to get a firm read. I'm interested in hearing from Vi, too.

I've got about 4 other items I'm supposed to be reading for this game now, which I will do... over the next several days, since we seem to be waiting for Mina to recover from Goofbash and then catch up and whatnot. I'm going to join the stalling party for the sake of me actually finishing my work in this game for once.

Bed beckons, so good night.

[AurorusVox]

@SJ:

Pooky's question; feels like he's caving under pressure and doing something he wouldn't normally do. I.e., he doesn't want to attention that will come if he doesn't change his tactics.
Magua's question: I find it incredibly strange that he'd mention his townread of Toogleoo and then still say he could be one of the scum voting for Gorilla. Why not focus on the people he doesn't have a townread on and see which ones are likelier scum?

What I

do

have a problem with is when the walls become not just a wall vs. wall battle but a WALL, REBUTTAL, COUNTER-REBUTTAL, COUNTER-COUNTER-REBUTTAL, WHY DID YOU NOT ANSWER THIS PART OF MY REBUTTAL war of words. I'd go so far as to say that not only is it anti-town, it's also scummy. In case you've forgotten Newbie 940, Nachomamma8-scum pulled me into the same type of wall war with him, basically alienating Thor665-town. What I was arguing made sense and could have won the game for us, but it got lost in the sea of rebuttals I was making.

Can town pull fellow town into a war battle? Sure. It happens. That's why I should be reading your and MagnaofIllusion's posts in detail to see if there is something like the scenario I described above going on or if it's just two wall-posters getting into an argument.

Well the reason I mentioned MoI not answering my response was because otherwise I fail to see why he'd ask the question. It looks like padding to make the wall seem more intimidating/MoI more powerful/wealthy/sexually active.

Also, a wall-war HAS to be rebuttal and counter rebuttals because otherwise why is there a war in the first place? Is it better to skip most things out? Doesn't that help scum skip over the things that they don't want to answer?
And if you think it's got a scummy foundation, what do you make of MoI's part in the wall? Is he a helpless and innocent bystander?

[ToastyToast]

If I was misrepping you I wouldn't be asking you to clarify your statements.
point about IS is fair enough, I thought it was a stretch anyways. I still don't like the gorilla statement, regardless.
"everyone else is doing it" wasn't a misrep, I just should have explained it better. Using "look at everyone else" is not a proper defense for one's own actions.
so I'd say it was more like 3/5, meta being an opinion

I'm getting a mixed opinion about AV still. Mind's telling me SCUM and guts telling me NOOOOOO. I have problems with a lot of the people on the AV wagon, and gorilla isn't helping himself much. This is me telling ya'all that I have to decide between which of the two scum-reads I have is stronger.

@SJ and AV: do you regard gorilla's statement as a slip, or is it a bias based on your opinion of him prior to the claim? I can think of a lot of reasonable explanations for what he said. Interested to hear what you think the scum motivation is.

[AurorusVox]

But I wasn't using look at everyone else. I was using my position in the order of people who voted to disprove that I was "quick". Meta surely can't count if you only read my obvTown games, you'll get the wrong impression about my town abilities >_>" I'm very inconsistent.

I thought Gorilla was town prior to his slip so I'm not biased by my opinion of him from earlier. It goes AGAINST my previous opinion of him.
And there is no scum motivation for slipping. He has just proven that he's lied.

Why did he lie? Well, first, he tried a WIFOM defence with "I wouldn't pick Espionage" to boost his Town credentials.
Then he reveals he WOULD have picked Espionage as scum, because he probably FORGOT what he'd said before, because it wasn't something he really meant, just something he wanted to say as a facade. If he's not lying about what he'd have picked as scum, then he's lying earlier for towncred. If he's lying about what he'd pick as scum, there are nefarious reasons for that too - either he wanted towncred for "not" going for any of those (oops, but he did), or he's trying to get cred for his "honesty" about what he'd pick, or there's something seriously naughty going on and he's WIFOMing about what power his scumbuddies have/don't have.

Regardless, he's lied at one point, and there is NO town motivation for him to lie about draft orders or troop preferences in this case.

[Hinduragi]

With RC's townflip, that just means that those players thought they could get an RC mislynch and save my demise for today. Don't let the Eurotrash get away with this!

Who are you looking at?

Remember everyone tomorrow we get nukes! You can satisfy your dumb agendas then. We have scum to lynch.

Why'd you change your playstyle mid-game?

and his big scumhunting post is calling out people who made scumlists and then attacking Vi for thinking his predecessor is scummy

I don't really get how this one adds to him being scum.

AV, I currently think you are scum because of 1)how quickly you agreed with the RedCayote wagon, 2) emotional defense (WHAT CAN I DO? ) 3)Meta check

META CHECK? Let's see examples. You should probably ISO me and look for my meta check.

More obviously. Hez needs a nuke.

Explain.

And what do you think of Hiraki, Gorilla and the others explicitly calling AV Town?

I'm not Hiraki.

from brief inspection it looks like a 'he's too scummy to be scum' attempt at logic.

Re-read. That entire piece is about LLD. Gorilla's looking like caught scum just based on reactions.

I don't really see IS scum this game.

danakillsu is probably town

Elaborate.

Equinox, your new avatar dissapoints me.

Oh yeah, LLD. Your "why me" tell. Where does it relate to a SK? You said you had past history with it. Where was that?

Actually decided AVox's attitude in recent posts comes off as too self-preservationist ("I'm not useless. I should not be lynched today.")

Citations please.

I don't like the references you're making to "SCUM WOULDN'T TAKE THIS" for Espionage and Eavesdrop

That's because they're wrong. Both sides have incentive to get it I think Eavesdrop was my second choice in Defcon 1(And here as well). Townpoints + scum could control the mafia quicktopic night-leaks. An example where scum can misuse it: Day scumtell leaks are an easy "Oh, they spammed that, I got 5 of those leaks when you guys got one so it's a null tell" issue. It's a strong role in the game in the right hands.

1078 is awesome

Unvote; Vote: Gorilla

Also, what is this talk of SK? I'm just voting scummy. SK and scum can be scummy. Though an SK lynch will be awesome, are we probably going to be able to hit it or scum? There's 5 scum and 1 SK. 5:1 ratio, and that's without town factored in. And, for those of you wanting to kill an SK, tip: SK's usually are on the fence and take the general stance on things. That's my #1 SK-tell if I had to pick one. Am I going to get him based on it? Probably not. There are way too many players doing that in this game. I'm pretty sure all of them are getting nuked too so we're probably going to see the SK flip during the holocaust.

[gorilla]

(Equinox)

For what it's worth, it was second on my list (espionage was first). There is literally zero reason I'd have considered listing espionage as scum in this game.

Scum picks would heavily depend on organizing draft lists with teammates, probably, but I'd aim for things like espionage, fighter, aircraft carrier, submarine - things with strong benefits.

Unvote, Vote: gorilla

oh god fuck damn it

I meant eavesdrop

there are clear reasons for scum to take espionage, I won't deny that

sorry for mixing up the two words.

[Revenge of Wei]

Please sign your posts. Thanks.

If you can't tell the difference between a CSL post and a Vi post you probably shouldn't be reading them.

(Equinox)

Gamma read the other half of my ISO in Open 302.

If you STILL think I'm scum you're just pathetic.

Townpost.

Vi of Wei, you're going to have to lay out your reasoning for this one.

I've yet to see scum defend a meta case ending with the second line. I

can

see framedTown saying it though.

2. I think CSL's vote makes that slot more likely to be scum because: if Vi actually thought I was a townie like she earlier suggested, she'd have been able to share those thoughts with CSL in their hydra QT. Instead, if she

is

was WK'ing me, then she hasn't got the same reason to talk about why she thinks I'm town to CSL, and so CSL votes me without considering that slot's earlier play.

1) You said WK again. Please die.
2) You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I've had a Town read on you, ever. I said that your exchange with HezLucky made you look better. In explaining this to other people you got your ammo for me "white-knighting" you.

Blah blah blather walls walls walls I've think I've seen all I need to see so whenever AV gets lynched is fine with me.

Cut by gorilla - this lynch is still bad and pushed by scum like AV.

[Toogeloo]

Gorilla is reading as very likely frustrated noob town, didn't I already say this. The wagon growing on him is getting out of control.

Where is Reckoner/Fate Hydra at? Don't those two usually have so much to say that they like to just bump threads with their own ego boosts? Far too many passive voices that I am not accustomed to going on up in here.

Vote: SDC

[gorilla]

Toog: Opinions on the RC wagon?

I liked RC before DEFCON 3, I really should go back and see how his wagon started, and why it's raging at this point. I can see a lot of names on the Wagon that I just don't like though.

did you ever do this just wondering

[Revenge of Wei]

Where is Reckoner/Fate Hydra at? Don't those two usually have so much to say that they like to just bump threads with their own ego boosts? Far too many passive voices that I am not accustomed to going on up in here.

Vote: SDC

Yes, they're scum; no, they're not getting lynched.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@Hinduragi: The Why Me tell applies to any faction of anti-town, as it is usually a Deflection and a survival technique.

The SK actually Would use this more often, because they are so concerned with their own survival.

It really does apply to any anti town faction.

As for references, I'll get them for you, but don't expect a lightning fast meta!get.

I'm much too lazy for that~. I'll get them to you in due time ^-^

[Hinduragi]

Gorilla is reading as very likely frustrated noob town, didn't I already say this.

1089 maybe. The rest? Hell no. What thread are you reading frustrated noob town from? He claimed pretty early after soft claiming. It's looked like consistent pressured noob scum.

I'll take your word for it about SK's, LLD.

[Internet Stranger]

Gorilla, why exactly did you claim?

[inHimshallibe]

those gorilla votes are bad and you three should feel bad.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

UU~ UU~!

WE HAVE A CODE TO DECIPHER~!

I'll get on that~.

[HezLucky]

Two things worth bringing up:

1. AurorusVox is _realllllllllllllly_ preservationist. Seems like he's voting for anyone that has even a semblance of pressure on
them. If supertown Mina had two votes on her for some odd reason later today, AV would probably vote for her too!

2. This:

I did a quick run-through of HezLucky's iso to look at his behavior between the HezLucky wagon, AurorusVox wagon, and RedCoyote wagon, but apparently I was seeing phantoms in the vote count because the difference wasn't as big as I thought it was. I'll have a better idea once I get around to updating the votals spreadsheet, but what I'm seeing from AlmasterGM's vote counts is a relatively small and static HezLucky wagon; the number never went higher than 4 votes according to the published vote counts, which means changes in HezLucky's levels of defensiveness aren't related to the pressure on him, which was what I was going for. HezLucky did a full reread of the game when the pressure was slipping (or slipped already) off him, which is plus points for him; I didn't actually read and cross-reference his commentary, though, so I'm deferring comments on the content of that to later. HezLucky was also fairly early on the AurorusVox wagon and didn't let up. HezLucky didn't have a read of RedCoyote according to his list of reads following the catch-up post, which is interesting and something I'll look into later, but right now I don't hold that against him.

tl;dr - I'm not interested in pursuing HezLucky at the moment, but I do need to read his big post to get a firm read. I'm interested in hearing from Vi, too.

First, it really seems like there are many better ways to spend your time than on someone who is very unlikely to be lynched today, such as myself. This reads as a scum trying to look useful. Lots of fencesitting
("HezLucky is not the target for today but maybe I'll pursue him tomorrow"), and a lot of uncertainty for an "analysis" that is that long (Hez didn't have a read of RedCoyote -- which is obvious, because RC had flipped midway through my read so I did not bother)
"but I won't hold it against him" -- aka. "I'm not sure whether or not this is going to go over well with the rest of the players in the game, so I'm going to refrain from attacking him ... also, the case with Hez/RC is weak and I don't feel like getting
called out on that today. I want to look useful not scum."

Basically, I question the motivation behind doing a reread specifically on someone who is at no risk of getting lynched today but who was under pressure yesterday. It seems like Swift Justice has been skimming the thread, thinking "oh that hez guy had some
pressure on him yesterday, let me do an analysis of him to make myself look useful" and not realizing that I am under virtually zero pressure today and thus an analysis of me would be quite useless.

SJ also reads like he/she's scared to say anything definitively bad about me, but is leaving just enough space to be able to wagon me later if the opportunity arises (and it won't - but skimscumSJ doesn't know that)