Mini 1195: The Beehive Mystery (GAME OVER)

[Ivan the Pleasant]

This account is a hydra.

vote beck

His joke sounds nervous. This is a serious vote.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

unvote

vote yank

NOW this vote is serious

It may be the Sam Adams talking, but what Beck said was really weird and anti-town. At the same time, the lynch almost seems too obvious, a jester perhaps?

I've never seen a scummier post on page 1

- you call him

really

weird and anti-town
- you qualify it with an "at the same time", which is scummy in general, especially during rvs
- your "at the same time" makes no sense and sounds nervous as shit
- you are more interested in sounding evenhanded than in generating information.

no way this is coming from town

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Not revealing heads.

Not "reaction fishing", unless that's the same as pressuring your top suspect.

Little interest in discussing "conclusions", except that our vote is staying on Yank and we aren't in to your unwarranted attempt to defend someone in rvs.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

We didn't say we were keeping them to ourselves, we stated them already. You made a comment that sounded nervous and scummy and so we voted you for it. It doesn't require further discussion on our part.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Bah. Well, there goes that idea.

unvote vote Acronach

Your posts so far have been devoid of content.

Not putting a vote out is almost always antitown, especially in early D1.

And if you're the type of self-righteous/thickheaded/airheaded prick who refuses to vote without "good evidence" out of some misplaced notion of caution or integrity, you have to make up for the lost content by pressuring people in other ways, such as with questions.

It's really not brain surgery, unless you're scum.

And even then, it's a fairly standard procedure.

Do something.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

It means that you are not being productive. You are contributing to an anti-town environment that allows scum to skate by. By not posting significant content or seriously questioning suspects you are making it more difficult to determine your alignment and allowing others to get by unquestioned.

Like we said before, do something. Vote somebody, make a case, even ask some questions. Thus far your posting has not demonstrated any of these things.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Remember that there are two of us. We have separate suspicions and gut reactions. Currently I am questioning Yank while the other head is questioning Acronach.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Remember that there are two of us. We have separate suspicions and gut reactions. Currently I am questioning Yank while the other head is questioning Acronach.

Sorry, I was being stupid. The other head directed that at Aronach and I misread it as directed at Yank. My mistake. The meaning of the post is correct though, but it should be directed at Aronach.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

voting is the towns greatest weapon, yes, but theres no logic in just throwing it around like its nothing. suppose your in a war and one of your friends is wrestling with an enemy soldier. voting just for the sake of voting would be the equivalant of firing random shots at both of them and hoping you hit the right guy. wouldn't it make more sense to take the time to aim? that's what i think, and that's why i'm waiting to develop my reads before i put a vote up.

Your analogy falls apart because of the fundamental difference between this game and a gun fight. You are envisioning this as being a battle between declared sides, and that I'm just recklessly shooting at people in the hopes of hitting scum.

No.

The reason you vote without having confirmed suspicions is because 90% of the game is about discovering what the sides are in the first place. People reveal what side they are in their reaction to votes more than they do at any other time. And I don't mean exclusively votes on

them

either.

This is early Day 1, nobody is getting lynched. Your priority should be "aiming", yes, but the way you do that is by creating more reactions and activity.

So shut up and vote.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

You were accepting that not voting was anti-town, since not voting was the only thing anyone else had specifically described as anti-town.

Now you're trying to claim that you meant not pressuring or questioning was what was anti-town about Acro's behavior, but I see absolutely nothing that would make me believe that this was actually what you had in mind when you agreed that Acro was being anti-town.

Now, these contradictions on their own aren't important, but these inconsistencies lead me to think that you were going out of your way to defend Acro for an unknown reason rather than following a rational train of thought that lead to the conclusion that Acro should not be subjected to pressure. I'm having trouble thinking of a town motivation for defending another so early in the game without a clear reason, so I'm forced to conclude that you're scum.

This post doesn't make any sense. Your premise is fine, but your conclusion is strange. Essentially you're saying that SleepyKrew has scum motivation to defend Achro, so either scum Sleepykrew is buddying town achro, or scum SleepyKrew is defending his partner. Achro seems like an unlikely townie to be buddied, especially if SleepyKrew thinks he's a VI. On top of that, calling him a VI defeats the buddying as no one particularly likes being called stupid. And if he's right and achro really is a VI, then he won't be a very useful pawn anyway.

Therefore we should assume that SleepyKrew is not scum buddying a townie. That means that you assume he is scum defending his scumbuddy. If that is the case, then Achro must be scum for this to hold true. Therefore, if you actually place store in this you should be trying to lynch achro first.

Nothing is wrong with defending a VI town read from being lynched, but that is in no way what Sleepy was doing.
First, Acro was not anywhere near a lynch, he was simply under a small amount of pressure.
Second, I haven't seen Sleepy argue anywhere that he actually has a town read on Acro. He was only pointing out Acro's meta as a VI, which is utterly irrelevant to his alignment in this game.

I'm changing my vote. There's something fishy going on with Sleepy and Acro, and Sleepy is the far fishier of the two.

unvote
vote: Sleepy

This is where you vote Sleepykrew, and it implies the same thing. Your argument requires achro to be scum therefore you should be voting achro if you actually believe what you're saying. You aren't, therefore you don't.

unvote, vote: Subgenius.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

This is counter productive. Calling Achro a VI is making him pissed off and preventing rational discussion from taking place. Continue your argument about sleepykrew, but you don't need to insult people. When he's pissed off his play will be altered as evidenced by Captain Picard telling people to fuck off. That causes him to play with two goals in mind. 1) his win condition, and 2) defending his honor or some shit like that. If he has two goals in mind it will be more difficult to determine his alignment.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

We will not be claiming heads.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

unvote

The two of us are in different states right now in terms of how much we've kept up with this game, and need to develop a more coherent understanding of what our respective roles are in this hydra thing. This is our first time trying this, and we apologize if our play has felt disjointed thus far.

I, for one, disagree vehemently with the subgenius vote that was made by the other head. If it were up to me, we would have been on Yank this entire time, which is what I thought we were doing...

vote Yank

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Fuck it.

vote: Yank

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ Beck -

Honestly, I haven't read the thread, and most of your questions seem to be about why we weren't on Yank. The other head is the one who will need to answer those.

And I wasn't saying in absolute terms, "OH, WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON YANK THE

WHOLE TIME

." I just meant that I don't get why the other head voted for subgenius, as I would have elected to stick with Yank. The Acronach vote in between was just some pressure to get more content flowing, and he's posted loads since then.

Bottom line is, Ivan the Pleasant is dealing with a bit of split personality right now, so he's gonna go see a shrink and then get back to you.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Well I don't know what the hell Archaebob is thinking, but if it makes you feel better voting Achro was my idea. I think he was probably under the impression that I would change it shortly afterwards.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ Beck -

Your opinion of what constitutes good scumhunting is irrelevant, and the merit of my methods is not up for discussion. In particular, your analysis of how this game has played out as a result of my one vote switch is elementary at best. This game has far more complexity to it then you are taking into account, and my acro vote made perfect sense at the time that it was made. The only legitimate complaints you can make is that 1) I personally have not been keeping very good track of this game, and made a confusing statement as a result, and that 2) the two of us haven't done a good job of synchronizing our efforts. Your continued attempts to turn these complaints into scumtells serves only to further discredit your understanding of this game.

unvote

I'm making an executive decision here. Both of us need to read and communicate with each other before we do anything else, because this isn't working.

I would prefer not to reveal heads, but if the schizophrenia continues I will start signing my posts. That goes for you too, partner. Town is getting distracted by our issues now and it needs to stop.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Yank is probscum, but Tommy is obvscum.

Yank will make a fine lynch today, but in the meantime we're doing this.

unvote vote Tommy

No way in hell that kind of self-analysis and over explanation is coming from town.

- Ivan the Fool (archaebob)

The other head (who I will henceforth refer to as Ivan the Terrible) is semi-V/LA right now, so I will be acting unilaterally until he gets back.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

This is the last time we will be talking about ourselves, at least with regards to who we are and what our deal is. We will sign posts as Ivan the Fool and Ivan the Terrible when appropriate, and will refrain from doing so when it serves no purpose. We do not wish to be more transparent than that, and will ignore any further questions on this issue.

@ Tommy -

Do you have a town meta on this site? If so, please link it.

@ subgenius -

We will explain in due time. First item on the list is that meta, if he has one.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Hello everyone. As per Ivan the Fool's request, I will sign this post as

Ivan the Terrible.

In the future I hope that this will be less necessary.

unvote

I appreciate what Ivan the Fool is trying to do, but I do not support his acting entirely unilaterally, and since I am back now I am removing our vote.

Personally I am not as much a fan of a Tommy wagon, so for the moment we are abandoning that.

vote: Subgenius

As you might have guessed, it was me who originally voted subgenius, and I'll tell you why. You all want to lynch Yank, which is cute and all, and you go right ahead. However, I find Subgenius to be a better option.

This is my 2nd game on site so no but if you have been playing here since 2008, so I'm taking an assumption you are a good player

Unfortunately, I've only played four games since I joined, and I've been on the winning team in exactly none of them, so I'm not sure your assumption is a good one.

Yank isn't looking too hot right now. Between his equivocal opinion on Beck and now his lame defense against Ivan, which consists of little more than an accusation of twisting words, I'm not seeing much from him. It's only the second page, but I've got a bad feeling about Yank.

Also:

You're voting for me because you guys are able to twist words? That's convenient.

"That's convenient" seems to imply that you think Ivan is up to something shady. Do you think he's purposely trying to twist your words because he's scum, or are you merely trying to avoid answering his accusations?

This post, followed by this one:

What defense? Ivan pretty much said he's keeping his conclusions to himself, and still hasn't stated a case against me other than me saying "At the Same time." So yes, it feels to me that he could be opportunistic scum. I can't have a lame defense if I don't know what I'm defending myself from, and I'm not going to sit here and defend my word choice. What I said regarding the jester is exactly what I thought(Didn't know they weren't in normal formats), that Beck may have been trying to hard for a lynch. I don't see how I'm 'evenhanded', and I thought what Beck was saying early game was anti-town and weird. Past that, I don't see your case.

You gave Beck a pass on his first post, because you thought he was potentially a jester. Now that you know that is impossible, what do you think of his first post?

strike me as very odd. He is clearly building suspicion of Yank, yet he is clinging to his random vote. There are two things that bother me here. The first is that he would maintain his random vote rather than applying pressure. If he is scum it is most likely because he doesn't feel under any pressure to change his vote, and he wants to generally go with the flow. Does that sound like Subgenius so far? I think so. If he is town, then he is asking questions and trying very hard to look town, but doing this without using his vote. These things are in conflict, therefore I find it unlikely that he is town. For those who will ask, I believe he is trying to look town based on the leading yet pleasant quality of his questions. They do not have the teeth of pressure or the certainty of suspicion. They are too nice. Scum are generally very nice people, and honestly I couldn't see Subgenius-scum playing any other way.

I will post more later.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

EBWOP: The second thing that bothers me about those posts is how he is slowly building up his suspicion of Yank. This is less of an issue for me as he didn't actually vote yank until late in the day. However, it simulates a townie slowly coming to a conclusion that can be cited later. It looks to me like he avoided the Yank wagon for most of the day because he felt he didn't

have

to be on it in order for it to go through, which is always an attractive position for scum. Late in the day, he votes Yank for a fairly convenient reason in a very innocuous way. That bothers me. A lot.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

unvote vote Greymarble

You need to post a lot more than you have. You are one of the most experienced and skilled players here, and I am extremely disconcerted by your lack of content so far. At this point, your play does not in the least bit line up with your town meta.

@ Beck -

As you can see, we haven't decided yet.

- Ivan the Fool

[Ivan the Pleasant]

yeah, beck is most certainly not scum

not after all those townslips we've been collecting

This post is very weird. You know how sometimes your gut itches? This is like poking it with a hot stick.

We're keeping our vote on greymarble until he posts, but this also warrants looking into.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Whatever.

Why would you mention it in the thread though? Calling someone town is one thing, but throwing out that there are lots of specific town tells without being prompted is... strange....

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Pretty thrilled with our vote right now.

We will hammer acro at deadline, but not before.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Let's wagon grey. We still got plenty of time, and this is

very

not happening.

specially this:

He passes up an opportunity to hand somebody some scumpoints (towntell assuming Captaintown, which seems right), and then talks about the manner in which he plans to get reads (a favorite towntell of mine).

Also I read through and there are possible masons. UNVOTE:

OK time to go. I'll figure out who's scum later.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

We still have four days until deadline. If an acronach lynch is still better, people

can

and

will

switch back. But we'll never know if a Grey lynch would be better unless we wagon him up and see what he does under more convincing demands for content. All this BS about not wanting the acro wagon to "slip away" doesn't fly. Things don't just magically slip away.

Vote grey people, you can see that he deserves it. Given his usual level of play, his behavior is far less likely to be town than Acro's. Also, I think everyone has made it pretty clear that we'll lynch acro at deadline if there's no better choice, so there's nothing to lose.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Scum:

Tommy
Greymarble
rblinker

- Ivan the Fool

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Ivan you havent really said anything about me, care to explain why you think im scum?

No.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

You're going down tomorrow though, don't worry. You are so scum it's not even funny.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

HoS: rblinker

[Ivan the Pleasant]

vote tommy

Cause we agree with Greymarble, and are glad to see him posting some content. Hope he keeps it up.

@ Tommy -

We were pretty much just slinging mud.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ Beck

We were pretty much just slinging mud to deliberately confuse the town.

Question for you, Beck: do you know the significance of tongue in cheek?

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I disagree, and I don't really believe you.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ Subgenius -

Beck is a bit thicker than most.

@ Beck -

You didn't answer my question:

Do you know the significance of tongue in cheek?

Please answer this time.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Then I would ask you to please click on the link. It's blue, you can't miss it.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Get back to your reread.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ Beck -

Yes. We are just pretending. Ivan the Pleasant is actually just one person who loves roleplaying, and wacking off to schizophrenic lizard porn.

- Ivan the Fool

@ ICEninja -

You think our play is detracting? I'm sorry to hear that. We mostly just wanted to give you a target you can foreshadow your suspicions on for later. But by all means, continue pretending that you have nuanced, evenhanded opinions of everyone, its bound to buy you town cred in the long run.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ Spoon -

You aren't seriously throwing dirt on us for suspecting Yank, are you? Why does it matter that they are confirmed town

now

?

fos Captain Spoon

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Tommy
Subgenius
ICEninja
rblinker

At least two scum is between the above four. Guaranteed.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Yeah, lynch people you know nothing about to make yourself feel better. good job.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I've played with Jilly before Beck, get VERY used to not hearing from her. She will not post anything, at all, even if you lynch her.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

You seem rather eager to die subgenius.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Well for starters Ivan the Fool posted that list, and I do not agree with it. I, Ivan the Terrible, am the one who made the first jab at you in Day 1, however I'm really not sure what he sees in ICEninja or Tommy. If you're really that intent on it I'll go back and finish that case.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

semi-V/LA until the 27th

- Ivan the Fool

[Ivan the Pleasant]

You were accepting that not voting was anti-town, since not voting was the only thing anyone else had specifically described as anti-town.

Now you're trying to claim that you meant not pressuring or questioning was what was anti-town about Acro's behavior, but I see absolutely nothing that would make me believe that this was actually what you had in mind when you agreed that Acro was being anti-town.

Now, these contradictions on their own aren't important, but these inconsistencies lead me to think that you were going out of your way to defend Acro for an unknown reason rather than following a rational train of thought that lead to the conclusion that Acro should not be subjected to pressure. I'm having trouble thinking of a town motivation for defending another so early in the game without a clear reason, so I'm forced to conclude that you're scum.

This post doesn't make any sense. Your premise is fine, but your conclusion is strange. Essentially you're saying that SleepyKrew has scum motivation to defend Achro, so either scum Sleepykrew is buddying town achro, or scum SleepyKrew is defending his partner. Achro seems like an unlikely townie to be buddied, especially if SleepyKrew thinks he's a VI. On top of that, calling him a VI defeats the buddying as no one particularly likes being called stupid. And if he's right and achro really is a VI, then he won't be a very useful pawn anyway.

Therefore we should assume that SleepyKrew is not scum buddying a townie. That means that you assume he is scum defending his scumbuddy. If that is the case, then Achro must be scum for this to hold true. Therefore, if you actually place store in this you should be trying to lynch achro first.

Nothing is wrong with defending a VI town read from being lynched, but that is in no way what Sleepy was doing.
First, Acro was not anywhere near a lynch, he was simply under a small amount of pressure.
Second, I haven't seen Sleepy argue anywhere that he actually has a town read on Acro. He was only pointing out Acro's meta as a VI, which is utterly irrelevant to his alignment in this game.

I'm changing my vote. There's something fishy going on with Sleepy and Acro, and Sleepy is the far fishier of the two.

unvote
vote: Sleepy

This is where you vote Sleepykrew, and it implies the same thing. Your argument requires achro to be scum therefore you should be voting achro if you actually believe what you're saying. You aren't, therefore you don't.

unvote, vote: Subgenius.

First of all, this was never answered satisfactorily. We were simply told that it was too far in the past to be of much use. On Day 1 that seems like pretty thin reasoning.

I agree with ICEninja that post 49 is telling, but I get a different read from it.

There's no debating that Yank is being overly defensive here, which I've seen cited more than once as a scum tell, but I find myself reading it as a newbie tell. He reminds me of myself in my first game after a long hiatus, in which I was subjected to some early pressure. GreyICE (of GreyMarble) was in that game, and might recall it. Like Yank, I became a bit hysterical and assumed my accusers were scum. As it turned out, they weren't scum, and neither was I.

At the moment, I'm sensing that Yank is an inexperienced and frazzled townie rather than a flailing scum.

This post is very interesting to me. This looks very strongly like scum trying to simulate a townie slowly changing their mind. Obviously, Subgenius already knew that Yank was going to flip town, so he couldn't be "YARG THIS BOY IS SCUMZ!!" "Looks like a newbie tell," is very convenient and very ridiculous. YankCane is NOT a newbie and a genuine townie would be suspicious that he isn't playing like a veteran townie as expected, rather than taking the irregularity as a town tell. The fact that YankCane was playing like a newbie should have been a scum tell unless he was trying to manufacture town tells.

No, my vote is still on Beck because I haven't decided on a better place to put it at the moment.

This doesn't make any sense either. Beck was his random vote and two seconds ago he said Yank was flailing. Even with the supposed town tell, flailing seems like a much better basis for a vote than his RVS vote.

That's all the energy I have for the moment.

unvote, vote: Subgenius

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Actually

I

said that. -Ivan the Terrible.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I wouldn't cry over either of those lynches.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

We are still confident in our reads. Are you suggesting we manufacture reads so that you can feel better about how townie we're being?

[Ivan the Pleasant]

We want to lynch Subgenius. We have made that clear.

Let me draw your attention to each post where Subgenius has actually voted, where I will demonstrate the scum mindset.

1st.

Hello people.

vote: Beck

I agree with Beck's assessment that he must be scum.

Also, I know we have several hydras in here, but I'm not sure I'm aware of all of them. Ivan, Greymarble, and I think one or two more. Who are the others?

See this post doesn't have a whole lot that is actually wrong with it. It's just an RVS vote. The only issue I have with this vote his how

long

he held on to it. The RVS ended and numerous suspicions came and went, yet his RVS vote persisted. There is no reason to do that other than to avoid attention and upsetting people. That is a scum mind set.

2nd.

@Sungenius: Do you still like your Beck vote? I feel like pressure on him will get us no further and his joking was probably more town in hindsight. I can't see scum wanting to draw attention to themselves unless it's for a pro- town reason. What do you think of Acro?

No, my vote is still on Beck because I haven't decided on a better place to put it at the moment.

What do I think about Acro? Well, I had to pull up his ISO to even remember what he had posted, and that's because he's made four posts with no information except that he doesn't want to vote yet. His only questions to others have been about Beck's previous mafia experience and a request for clarification from confid about his vote, which seems like a defensive move rather than an attempt to put pressure on Confid. In short, he's posting, but has avoided voting or letting any opinions be known. I can excuse a refusal to vote if a player compensates by actively pressuring players through pointed questions and provides interesting analysis, but Acro is not doing this.

You thinking Yank was scum until post 49. Why the sudden change?

I thought I explained myself pretty fully in Post 53. Prior to Post 49, I read Yank as fence sitting and hesitant to state firm opinions, which I consider scummy. In post 49, he came out of his shell a bit and took a firm stand. I don't think it was necessarily a good one, but I don't think it was a scummy one either. It looked like a jumpy newbie defense, which lessened my suspicions of Yank.

@CS
RVS is OVER. Acro did the right thing not slapping on a vote.
+5

I find Sleepy's support of Acro's refusal to vote a bit strange. I wouldn't vote someone for refusing to vote, but neither would I argue that it is a good move, and I certainly wouldn't assign someone "vollkan points"© for calling someone out for refusing to vote.

A trait I've noticed in various mafia games throughout the interwebs is that scum, more specifically newer scum, tend to want to make sure that everyone knows why they are doing what they are doing, so that they won't get suspected for it. Your [Acro's] statement seems to fall in line with that.

I find this argument plausible.

In conclusion, my vote isn't doing much on Beck, and it looks like Acro might need a few votes on him before he decides to contribute. I'm less concerned by the fact that he's not voting than the fact that he's not voting OR contributing much in other ways. This is troubling to me.

Unvote

Vote: Acronach

You don't need to read all of this post as a lot of it is just responding to other people. However, there is a general tone that needs to be taken into account. This is really a gut thing, so it will be difficult for me to articulate, however I will try. He is much to reasonable. He answers everything asked of him carefully in a way that won't spark any controversy. He is quick to agree with other people's opinions, but has a few in mind that he won't agree with. It all reads like play acting.

More tangibly, read the sentence where he actually votes achro. There is very little actual reasoning in it despite all the logical discussion regarding other issues above. This is very basic scum mindset. He is logical to appear town, but his vote is more offhanded in a way that prevents him from being held to that opinion. Notice that he doesn't say "Achro is scum," he says achro needs some pressure. That allows him to very easily later say "yes achro is scum, that's why I'm voting him. Duh," or to say "No achro is town, I was just pressuring him but he seems ok now." There is no way anyone could hold him to this vote. Now his RVS vote follows the same patter. At any point he could say "Oh it was obviously a joke," or "No, I think that was a real slip, or he was acting nervous." Again, I'm less concerned about that one due to it being his first post.

3rd.

It is protown to not vote when you have no idea what to do. It's VI-ish having no idea what to do.

Acro is a VI. Of course he'll do anti-town things.

In the second quote, it looks like that you admit Acro was being anti-town, but dismiss it based on him being a VI. Now, you're saying that he was being pro-town despite being a VI.

Before that, you said that not voting was correct play based on RVS being over, but you didn't mention at all that this was correct only if you're a VI or that Acro is a VI.

Still, your only consistent position on Acro is that he shouldn't be exposed to pressure.

@sub, if somebody thinks somebody is VI, what is wrong with that person defending the VI from being lynched (going under the assumption that the VI = town read)

Nothing is wrong with defending a VI town read from being lynched, but that is in no way what Sleepy was doing.
First, Acro was not anywhere near a lynch, he was simply under a small amount of pressure.
Second, I haven't seen Sleepy argue anywhere that he actually has a town read on Acro. He was only pointing out Acro's meta as a VI, which is utterly irrelevant to his alignment in this game.

I'm changing my vote. There's something fishy going on with Sleepy and Acro, and Sleepy is the far fishier of the two.

unvote

vote: Sleepy

Look at his vote sentence again. They aren't scum, they're "fishy." That means at any time he can make the same claim. "I actually think they are scum," or "No I was pressuring them, but I think they're probably town." No one could possibly hold him to this vote either. It is truly amazing how slippery he is with his wording.

4th.

unvote

vote: Yank

Honestly, I expected him to disappear and be prodded out. I certainly didn't expect him to come back and vote Grey with a one line explanation. After his two day disappearance following a period of pressure, he really needed to come back strong to lessen my suspicions of him. This vote against Grey is the opposite of strong.

I'm not sure I'm ready for the day to end, because I feel like this is continuing to be an eventful and informative day, but I'm liking a Yank lynch a lot at this point.

Once again, read the last sentence. "at this point," means that he might not think the same think at the next point. Also he qualifies this with "I'm not sure I'm ready for the day to end," which means he can hop off the bandwagon whenever he feels like it.

5th

Alright, my opinion is that there are literally only scum motivations for lynching Yank right now. Even I were 90% sure Yank was scum today (which I consider a pretty high degree of certainty for a day 1 lynch) he'd still be a bad lynch today. If he's telling the truth, lynching him is a bad blow for a very powerful pro-town faction. If he's lying, he's already caught, and it's just a matter of time before he's lynched. There's no hurry. Therefor, Da Koolzy and Acro are both looking a bit scummier after their post claim support for Yank's wagon. Da Koolzy obviously supports it since he's voting for him, and although Acro switched his vote from the wagon, it's quite clear that he'd still prefer a Yank lynch.

Da Koolzy is on the radar. He came out of the woodwork seemingly hoping to hammer Yank after his claim. Also, he has yet deliver on any kind of comprehensive catch up post. The attack on Yank seemed a bit opportunistic (to use a popular buzz word) and out of the blue. He seems to have had computer trouble, and he should have time to more completely explain himself today, but I really don't like his Yank vote.

I also don't like:

Don't hammer yet. I reserve the right to do so after I check a few things, and respond to some pending questions directed at me.

Then he tries to hammer without answering the questions.

Acro was already on the radar, and since being there has dodged questions for an extraordinarily long time and expressed frustration that we aren't lynching a player that any thinking townie would realize is a bad lynch for today.

Town points to ICE. I'm extremely grateful that he unvoted, thus avoiding a hammer. His point about Sleepy is a good one. His unvote of Yank does not look like a scum move. It by no means clears him, but it does lessen my suspicions of him somewhat.

vote: Acro

Now this one is a little harder to read. He doesn't accompany the actual vote with anything, however, he also doesn't post anything like a case on achro, instead he relies on past "suspicions." His vote itself is not strongly placed. There is no conviction behind it, rather it is a "good lynch," not a "scum lynch," but a "good lynch." Again this is slippery. He could very easily decide that this is "not a good lynch."

His next vote is a mod correction, so I'm ignoring it.

6th

Ugh, fine.

unvote

vote: Greymarble

Really?

7th

I'm a little surprised that scum decided to kill Yank, but his alignment isn't much of a surprise. I don't think either of the flips change my reads very much. Grey and sleepy (jilynne) are still at the top of my list. I should re-read a bit to get my momentum back, but those are definitely the two players I'm most interested in hearing from at the moment.

vote: Greymarble

Once again he is pressuring. At any point he could stop pressuring and no one could say "boo."

8th

agreed

vote: Jily

Once again. Really?

'tis not a matter of lynching lurkers for being lurky, but rather of lynching them for being scummy.
Jil is scummy. Her being a confirmed nonmason and a lurker are bonuses, but definitely of secondary importance.

I fully agree that Jil is scummy, but I'd prefer that we not settle on lynching a player that seems unlikely to respond when we have nearly a week left before deadline and we still have the opportunity to pressure scummy players who are unlikely to respond. My primary concern is that if we lynch Jil or Dakoolzy, and they're not scum, we won't have an awful lot to show for this day. I think it's unwise to put all of our eggs in the scummy lurker hunting basket.

Also, since it looks like Da Koolzy is being replaced, I think it would be wise to wait to see what his replacement has to say.

In the meantime,

unvote

vote: Ivan

The case is that despite posting a fair amount, I don't feel that he has developed any authentic scum reads, and if he has, he doesn't seem terribly interested in making them stick. His most fully developed case is the one against me, which is all based on old info. He first presented it in D1, and never responded to my defense. Then today, when he was again asked to present a case, he more or less reposted his original case and claimed that my response was not satisfactory. If this was the case, and if he really thought I was scum, I would expect him to both continue pressuring me and point out my failures in an attempt to get others to lynch me. He did neither, which leads me to believe he neither believes in his case nor wishes to lynch scum. Other than this, I find his sarcastic attitude quite anti-town, though not necessarily scummy.

Last point is that after reading this thread he posted in Mafia Discussion, which I mostly agree with, I don't see how he implemented his town mindset into day 1 play. Particularly:

What I mean by "town must look town" is that you must reveal what your role is simply by being truthful. You aren't trying to "look town" as much as you are trying to share your true feelings with the town in a way that is helpful and productive. This means you want to play honestly, openly, and amicably

Granted, Ivan is a hydra, and not all of the play has been archaebob's, but I find that a lot of Ivan's play has been the opposite of honest, open, amicable, helpful, and productive. The sarcasm, the reluctance to post cases, the inability to form a coherent opinion with his other head, none of these are consistent with what he, himself, has said a town player should be doing, which leads me to think that he is, in fact, scum.

If we get to the deadline, and no other cases are solidifying, I'll be happy to hammer Jily, but as it stands, I feel like the town is settling for the default lynch, which is ok as long as we do it while also simultaneously using our limited time trying to uncover and develop more reads, but I do not want to lynch a lurker with a week left before the deadline without digging around a bit more

Here, finally after all this time, he votes us. Now he does actually post some serious suspicions, however notice that the part dealing with us starts with "In the meantime," so I suppose we're expected to think that there is something else he plans to get to that will take precedence over voting us.

And that's it. Not once has he wholly committed to a vote. Not once has he not left himself with an out. Every single time he actually votes anyone he drowns it in qualifiers. His entire attitude is to be pro-town, not to find scum. That is a scum mind set.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I, Ivan the Terrible, will be going

v/la

from tomorrow until the 22nd. This means both heads will be v/la, however, I may end up having internet access where I'm going so we'll have to play it by ear.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I still feel that Beck is town. He's been earnestly scum-hunting and giving a great impression of frustration at not knowing who to vote. I think that his post 756 is a reasonable explanation of the apparent flip-flop on Ivan.

I think Subgenius ably revealed the thinness of Ivan's case on him. It seems like every time Ivan opens his mouth he shows how little he's concentrating on looking for scum. No wonder he's reticent to expand on his other reads. I'm becoming increasingly happy with the idea of lynching him.

You are transparent as fucking air, you know that?

Town doesn't talk in terms of "becoming increasingly happy with the idea" of something. They just do things.

@ Everyone -

Read the above post and note the following:

1) Buddying of beck, phrased scummily, "giving a great

impression

of being frustrated," yeah right
2) Unsolicited and weak defense of subgenius, consisting mostly of a pathetic attempt to deflect suspicion onto us.
3) "I'm becoming increasingly happy with the idea of lynching him". Tommy, you aren't playing in a town of newbs, it's obvious to anyone who thinks about it what you are doing. You are fabricating a gradual progression of logic and weaving it into the thread to justify a vote later on. Do you think anyone is fooled by your long-winded self-analysis? We have all played scum before, and are therefore intimate with the paranoia that can make a player write something like that. What you are really saying is:

"I'm informing all of you town players that I still suspect Ivan, so that if it becomes politically viable to move my vote over to him, I can do so without contradicting myself. I'm going to couch all of my opinions in this abnormally reasoned and weaksauce tone so that I can defend myself from any conceivable angle of attack"

Town has convictions. Occasionally an individual can be more logical and unsure of themselves than average, but as a general rule, it is primarily the scum that deal in caveats.

My V/LA is less intensive than Ivan the Terrible, so we're gonna do this:

unvote vote tommy

- Ivan the Fool

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I'm not gone yet.

unvote, vote: Subgenius

We'll get to Tommy when I'm out of here.

I'm not interested in Subgenius's comments on our case. I would like other people to respond.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

What is strange here? He wants to pursue Tommy, I want to pursue you. We compromise and I pursue you while I'm around, and when I'm not he'll go after Tommy.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

If you assume scum, doesn't everything he says seem fishy?

[Ivan the Pleasant]

So vote me, then. There's only been one other game I've played where I was hoping for an early death out of tedium and irritation, and I managed to act obvtown enough to get myself night killed on the first night. Doesn't look like I'll be able to pull that off this game, so do me a favor and quit talking about how scummy you think I am and start giving a serious try to lynching me. I'm sick of it.

This is so obviously contrived it's not even funny. How long did you spend calculating how well asking for a vote was going to go over? Were you sweating thinking about whether or not people would think that was scummy, or just too bold to be scummy? Sorry, but you failed.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Wow, you are trying SO hard to look townie. Can no one else see the glaring differences between his posting now and D1? Look at this! He is as transparent and slippery a fucking water.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

We will not tolerate speculation as to the identity of Ivan the Terrible. We will not be held to meta that is not our own.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

This is Ivan the Terrible. I am the one who has been posting for the majority of last week. Ivan the Pleasant is V/La. I looked up foilist13's games, and he is indeed V/La in the two that I saw. I am not.

Again, do not compare me to meta that is not my own.

As far as our play, it seems pretty obvious that we've gotten our act straight already. We both think Subgenius and Tommy are scum. Ivan the Fool has addition suspects which I do not agree on, but they are more minor suspects so it doesn't really matter. What exactly is anyone's issue with us?

Subgenius will be the lynch today. There is overwhelming evidence against him and the wagon on Llamarble is entirely scum driven. Those of you who are town on that wagon should get off.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

*Ivan the Fool is V/La

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Our play has fallen victim to disagreement. Other than that I think we've done fine.

@Tommy: Who knows? That was Ivan the Fool. I haven't a clue why he suspected you beyond gut read.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Read the following case. It's signed Ivan the Fool. You'll find out why I think you're scum when I decide to lynch you.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I mean the immediate next post we made after the post you made and quoted.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Meh. That's fair.

Ivan the Fool can do what he wants. He'll be back soon and then you'll get yours unless he has enough sense to go after Subgenius first.

What possible reason could there be for me to post a case anyway? If I did post one you wouldn't get lynched, you'd just have the entire night phase to discuss with your buddies on how best to diffuse the case/defend against it. No thank you.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Was that a threat?

[Ivan the Pleasant]

An Llmarble lynch is unacceptable. We will be looking very carefully at everybody on that wagon if the lynch goes through. You all need to flashwagon subgenius for a mafia lynch.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I suggest everybody simple ISO Subgenius. It should be obvious why we ought to lynch him. He posts with EXTREME care in what he is saying and exactly how he is saying it. He is not doing that in a town way, i.e. finding scum, but is doing it in a scum way, i.e. avoid stepping on toes and attracting attention. He is keeping up a good enough posting rate to not be accused of lurking, but no more. He leaves himself an out with every post. He remains on the fence even when he is voting. He demonstrates a gradual progression every time he changes his mind.

Come on people.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Sub is DEFINITELY not vanilla. Ivan the Fool, aka archaebob has literally never in his career gotten a gut scum read on a vanilla townie. He invariably hits scum and PRs. The reason for this is the obvious similarity in their play, i.e. PRs are also forced to consider their own survival as a priority and other things as well. Sub has been a huge gut read for his since the beginning, and from my gut as well.

If anyone sees fit to question this they should read the game linked by Magic Trainer.

Subgenius is definitely scum.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Giitah, change your vote to subgenius. Rblinker is the only one who isn't on a major wagon, and we have no reason to expect that he will magically appear in the next hour.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

You think we were part of a flashwagon? You're aware of how long we were voting subgenius, right?

Personally I'm glad he was killed. Now we can move on and he can think about how to fix up his town play.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Claim: 1 shot vig

We will be explaining our play shortly.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Hurm, I thought we were at L-1, my mistake. However, I suppose it is important that you all know, and now is as good a time as ever.

First of all, I, Ivan the Terrible, am foilist13 as Magic Trainer guessed. I was rather impressed with that actually.

Now let me explain our play. We do not have schizophrenia. We have never been in disagreement about our play. Everything we have done has been calculated. The reason for this was so that we could avoid night kills while lining up our shot. We saw this as more important than playing in a VT manor and scumhunting seeing as we were able to unilaterally choose a kill. Now that kill is expended, and while we were wrong and are shocked by that, we are ready to play to our VT meta as being night killed no longer concerns us.

vote: Tommy

First of all, who the fuck doesn't vote

at all

on day 1?? That should have thrown up red flags for all of you right from the get go, and you should have been pressuring him for a vote as soon as the rvs ended.

I will post more later, and by more I mean

moar

.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I'll be on in a bit to post things that are more relevant, however just so everyone knows, archaebob has been teaching at a camp for the last couple weeks with no internet access. I believe he'll be back Wednesday, but he's been v/la this entire time.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Strongest read right now is ICEninja.

- archaebob

I'm leaving again for another week, though I'll have a bit more access this time.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

That is archaebob's strongest scum read, yes.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I apologize, please forgive me. Real life has caught up with me and I have to post v/la until Sunday. There is a chance I will be able to come on tomorrow, but I won't have much time for reading and generating in depth posts. I will keep up however for a speedy catch up when I return.

I haven't read the thread, I don't know if Ivan the Fool is back yet, but I sincerely hope that he is or will be soon.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

V/LA until monday. -Ivan the Terrible.

Now before I disappear again, I have a general town read on beck. I don't see his play as coming from scum. If you accept this as his town meta it makes perfect sense why he said earlier that people always think he is scummy. He is blustery, easily flustered, and doesn't post in an entirely coherent manner. That is all forgivable since he is probably town. If you're going to lynch between him and Tommy, you should lynch Tommy.

Second, ICEninja warrants a second look as historically he is very slippery, and his scum play can only have improved since the last time I played with him. then I managed to catch him successfully on day 1, however this is a very different game from that one, and I am playing very differently. However, I strongly respect Ivan the Fool's opinion, and if he says ICE is scum then there is certainly some reason for it. I have not communicated with him since his last post, but I will do so at the next opportunity.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

This is poor play. We are not at the stage of the game where we can make useful and accurate lynch decisions based on assumptions about the setup and relationships. The things I see going on here are incredibly damaging if we're wrong.

If I were playing scum I would jump on the chance to buss out Llamarble, and there's nothing to say our partner wouldn't do it also. Several of you are making the assumption that "both scum could not have bussed out their partner." That is actual WIFOM. The real word is "wouldn't do that," not "couldn't do that." Scum can do whatever the fuck they want, including buss the shit out of each other for town cred. When you make that assumption and you're

wrong

you are giving scum a christmas present to set up future or current mislynches with an ironclad excuse. Stop doing that. Those of you who have made that assumption must then accept that we cannot be on the scum team since we made a second NK and are therefore a vig or SK. That requires you to believe that Beck is scum. There should be no Beck/Tommy shenanigans going in here. If you think there must be a scum player on the subgenius wagon than it

is

Beck. Put your money where your mouth is.

I'm rambling now.

Back to my original point, we need to stop setting up "either X or y is scum." If you're wrong and both X and Y are town or both are scum then you are either clearing a scum player incorrectly, or allowing yourself to be pulled into easy mislynches. You don't know who the scum are based on that kind of information. You MUST include actual independent reads in your reasoning.

We will not support any lynches that are on such a basis. Its fucking candy for scum players.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

You all are doing these "lynch, NK, lynch, NK," scenarios wrong. There are 8 people alive right now. 1 will die each day and night which will bring us to 6 tomorrow, then to 4 the next day which will be mylo, not lylo. Presumably then we would no lynch, and THEN be in lylo with two townies and a scum.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

you are basing that off faulty logic though.

it is 100% possible for all town to be on the Sub wagon

it is 100% possible Ivan is lying and is a SK

Try to read.

If

you think that there is scum on the subgenius wagon then it must be Ivan or Beck. Ivan is

not

on the scum team because he has demonstrated the ability to kill at night. No mafia family can kill twice, therefore Ivan must be a vig or an SK. The idea that there must be scum on the subgenius wagon is predicated by the mafia family knowing who its members are and making a conscious effort to save one of them. An SK, while scum, does not have that relationship with the mafia and would therefore be excluded from this scenario. If one is to assume that there must be at least one scum on the major town wagon yesterday and one scum on the major scum wagon, then the scum on the town wagon must be you.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Ivan the Terrible has returned.

I don't have an issue with gitah's vote on us. I'm actually surprised more people aren't voting us to get us to post this amazing chunk of content that we've been promising. For that reason I'm pretty confident that he's town. He should get an avatar though.

Anyway, I have returned. An actual major case will be a while in coming, but I'm starting it now. By starting it I mean rereading in depth.

I am not entirely opposed to a beck lynch, though I do not particularly plan on participating in one. Yes he is the only person on the Subgenius wagon who has the potential to be mafia, though I see nothing strange about all the scum being giddy riding the llamarble wagon to the end and enjoying watching everyone eye up beck while they do not get discussed. Beck's flip would be interesting, but not enough for me to want to vote him.

Tommy is very interesting. When I read him I pretty much forget what he said the moment afterwards. Right now off the top of my head I have no idea who his suspects are. That's pretty cool if you think about it. Not a lot of people are talented enough writers to make themselves invisible like that. Or he could just be really uninteresting, but in either case his writing feels fabricated to me.

ICE was giving me scum vibes, but once I compared it to the last game we played together, I'm pretty sure he' town. Ivan the Fool's read on him still has not been explained to me, so it is probably gut, so fine. His gut is usually awesome, but he was wrong once already this game on someone I was pretty sure was scum as well. I personally am ready to clear ICE for the moment.

Whiskers is another of those people that just disappears in my mind despite the large amounts of bluster. However, just reading her posts I'm pretty sure she's town. I don't get any weird vibes from it, and I can see why she reacts the ways that she does regardless of whether I agree with her.

Scott needs some rereading before I can give a confident opinion on him.

Magic Trainer is weird for me however. His posting in general is protown, but I would expect that from a good player. He really hasn't done anything to make me think he's town, and on top of that his sudden praise of archaebob and myself really rubbed me the wrong way. It's fine if you think we're good, but why would you say that? You're just painting a target on our heads if we're town. If you thought we were scum then that would be fine, but you really didn't seem to have an opinion on us, you just wanted to call out how strange we were acting. If you could tell that we were getting ready to pull something then what is the protown reasoning for outing us? You know our playstyle is not to be open and transparent, and if you read that game that you linked then you should really know not to talk about the things we are doing behind the scenes if you notice them. That was very weird for me.

Actually, you know what?

unvote, vote: Magic Trainer

I want to see how you respond to this.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Well damn. There goes my line of questioning.

unvote

[Ivan the Pleasant]

*sigh*

Does anyone have significant objection to a hammer?

[Ivan the Pleasant]

If tommy flips town then it's beck's head tomorrow. If he flips scum then... probably scott. Ivan the Fool may have differing opinions, but those are mine in case we die. I will be pursuing those lynched tomorrow.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

As of right now, there is scum between ICEninja and Heliman. Beck, Giitah, scott, and us Ivans are all town.

Here's why.

1) Beck is obv town. He's always been obv town, and the crappy statistics case ICE was pushing yesterday combined with his weaksauce commitment to it and a Tommy lynch make him extremely scummy.

2) Giitah is town because of his behavior when he was a major wagon with Llmarble. He did not cross vote, which could easily have saved his skin and gotten him town cred for the bus, but instead tried to push a new wagon and pressure people, which was not in the interests of self preservation. Reading that whole turn of events makes it painfully obvious that Giitah is town.

3) Scott is probtown. We led in with "we will be lynching scott tomorrow if Tommy flips scum" which he did. Combine that with the fact that we are definitely not mafia and could be a lurking full vig or SK, and there is no reason why we wouldn't get the nightkill unless 1) they thought we were lynchable (not likely) or 2) they were hoping to gain something from our suspicions. They obviously knew the Tommy flip, so that means they thought we would be going for scott and that would be safe.

This is ultimately wifom however, which is why scott is probtown and not obvtown.

4) We are town. We said why earlier.

5) ICE is scum because of his super tentative statistics case on Beck. If he actually believed any of that he would have pushed it like a motherfucker. The fact that he went after Tommy in an equally weaksauce way is borderline ridiculous. He bussed out Llamarble, then bussed out Tommy, and is now going to try and soak up the town cred and coast to the finish. That is very common scum play, personally I do it all the time. Note the game Magic Trainer linked.

6) Heliman could be scum simply because I don't have a great reason to think he's town. Ivan the Fool has a more formulated opinion on him.

vote: ICEninja

-Ivan the Terrible.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

So let's lynch you, and if the game's still going ya'll can come after us.

As of right now, there is scum between

ICEninja

and Heliman. Beck, Giitah, scott, and us Ivans are all town.

[quote="Beck]

Ice

or Scott today, they need to convince me why they are town[/quote]

I guess I'm leaning towards Giitah or

ICE

at this point but my reads on either aren't particularly strong.

I'm noticing a theme here.

Giitah hasn't posted any reads yet today, and Heliman disagrees.

PleasantArchaebob and Foilist-#1175 The jury is still out on the power role, but I'm leaning SK pretty steeply. Why? It's because Ivan's claim that he was faking the indecisive behavior causes two large contradictions. First, the whole trick had no defensive aspect to it once yank mason claimed D1 with three partners who were EXPRESSEDLY not you. Scum was pretty obviously going to be going after the mason team for the next three freakin days, MINIMUM, so you had nothing much to complain about. Second, Your huge argument on sub in #768 was all about how he was scummy for being purposely indecisive. This argument doesn't make any sense now because you just claimed to be purposely indecisive just like you claimed sub was. You're scummy by your own definition. Also if you're a vig your hit on Sub was a horrible shot.
Also Also, Hydra heads that try to make good arguments but can't agree with each other in the end are basically a factory of small, ineffective wagons. Makes for an enviornment that favors scum, wouldn't you say?

Two things. First of all, this account was supposed to be an experimentation with meta. Notice that we were trying not to reveal our heads at all, but archaebob mistakenly posted from his account. We both have meta of posting large quantities and being aggressive scumhunters, but here we have not done that. We wanted to see what would happen if we generated the schizophrenic hydra, ignored questions, and were generally unhelpful. I have to say it's pretty amazing that we didn't get lynched for all that, or even seriously wagoned. Think about it. The whole security we have in playing mafia is that people won't be allowed to get away with lurking and not answering questions because we the town can make them answer questions! We have just shown that that is not true.

Now as interesting as all that is, our 1 shot vig role was actually interesting and lent itself well to the experiment. Not getting might killed actually had some useful aspects and we chose to play to that goal. If you still think we're a serial killer, think about how most SKs have NK immunity, investigation immunity, or both. We don't have Night Kill immunity. It would be almost impossible for an SK to win while having to fear getting lynched and fearing the mafia. We certainly have not been playing a strong town game to avoid the noose, and our 1 shot claim nearly guarantees that we'll get the kill tonight since we didn't get it last night.

Secondly, we have killed exactly one person. The only possible benefit to that is to avoid suspicion of being the SK (assuming that is our role). That locks us into a claim of 1 shot vig, ties our hands with our kill, and forces us to avoid lynches and nks simultaneously. That's fucking impossible.

Now I'd like to hear a case on Beck since you're pretty much the only one who thinks that he's anything but vanilla town.

Then I'd like to hear your in depth opinion on ICEninja. This goes for

Giitah

s well.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

ICEninja is scum.

I'm practically 100% on this.

- archaebob

Case incoming.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ ICEninja -

YO. Can I get your most recent town meta?

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Actually, screw that.

I definitely see reason to vote for Heliman, but some of the circumstance really points to the slot being town. I need to think on this more.

All I need is this quote, and maybe a few others like it.

Town doesn't talk about things in terms of what they "definitely see a reason to do." They just do things. The unnecessary caveat in this sentence reeks,

reeks

of scum.

ICE, do you really think that anybody is fooled by these long winded self-analyzing statements? Anybody who thinks about it can see exactly what you are doing: you are building an armored geometric wall of logic around everything you say, because you think it makes you invulnerable to attack.

"Hm, I don't actually have any suspicions, so what can I do to seem townish? Hmm. Oh, I know! I'll just create the

illusion

of having real suspicions by taking note of

everything that happens which could conceivably be construed as a scum tell

. Then I'll fabricate a gradual progression of thought by slowly injecting my 'suspicions' into the thread over the course of several posts, including a qualifier each time that explains exactly why I haven't voted already. That way I'll never contradict myself, and nobody can argue against me!"

This is a style of scum play that a lot of players who don't know any better fall into, particularly players who pride themselves on their intelligence and rationality. They fail to recognize that their desperate, pathetic attempts to appear completely nuanced and even-handed is

in an of itself

the most powerful scumtell in this game.

Real

town is paranoid, inconsistent, and will often make leaps in logic that they can't really justify because they have an intuition about something. To be sure, some players will tend to be more rational even as town, and I have no doubt that ICE is such a player. Nevertheless, the tone and structure of his posts reveal his alignment pretty clearly to anyone who is willing to look.

confirm vote: ICEninja

- archaebob

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Give me your most recent town meta then. I already have a scum meta. You might actually remember this game:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53&t=15202

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ Ice -

Your playstyle is indeed extremely methodical, which makes it very easy for you to mimic as scum, at least on a superficial level. However, you still can't explain paragraphs like these:

Ivan's case on sub wasn't outstanding, but it was a genuine case. It definitely didn't persuade me of anything yet, but it gave me the impression that this slot is willing to get their act together and find scum. They're lowered on my lynch preference for sure.

I'm incredibly frustrated by the fact that I'm getting an increasing town read on Ivan. I really want to vote the slot just because, but I'm getting less and less confident that they're actually scum.

I'm developing a bit of a scum gut read on Tommy. Considering some of the stuff he said (I'll try to make some specific examples tomorrow) seem really fishy if you assume scum on him. I realize this is pretty much the case for everyone, but I'm feeling like he's managing to fly under the radar some. I'll look deeper in to this over the next couple days.

Town simply does not think in those terms. Everything is put into such a narrowly defined box:

"I'm incredibly frustrated at the fact that my mind is changing, because it requires me to expend more effort in finding a new read, and all of these other narrowly defined factors make me

want

to vote Ivan, BUT I CANT, because I am super gradually beginning to think that he is townish."

Your need to broadcast every miniscule fleeting change in your opinion in the most conciliatory way possible goes far beyond what I would buy from a town player, and it does not match with your town meta. More on that later.

Your defense is bullshit, and you know it.

I build an "armored geometric wall" of whatever you're saying to make yourself sound clever because that's how I play mafia.

Haha. Whatever I say to make myself sound clever? Are you implying that I am being disingenuous? Are you suspicious of my motivations? If so, why? That's a surprisingly combative way of phrasing that, given the circumstances.

@ Beck -

Why Heliman and not ICE?

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I don't think that this move points to Scott being scum. Historically we've been extremely wary of hammers, and everyone who has dropped a hammer has been the recipient of a wagon. If Scott was scum, pushing for a hammer now would be extremely dangerous going into lylo/mylo.

I'll respond to ICE's defense some time today. I just logged in to catch up.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Beck brings up some decent points, though, and I'm definitely not ignoring them. After all, listening to Beck lead to good things yesterday.

And this is exactly the type of thing that would feel extremely awkward for you to write if you were town. The above quote has no teeth in it. You know Beck's alignment, and you are removed from the natural flow of insecurity because of that information. No way you would be buddying like that if you were town.

And don't give me a "we have different playstyles" speech, I've read through your town meta. It's not your style that I'm after, it's your thought process. You aren't town, period.

We've made our position clear on who we want lynched. Discuss all you want, but don't drag this out too long, or people will get bored. As you can see, some in this town are already having activity issues, and nothing kills a town like apathy.

- archaebob

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ ICE -

Lol, you

wish

I could be dissuaded by that kind of appeal to emotion, don't you.

Let me explain something to you.

You, ICEninja, are a reasonably intelligent person. Furthermore, you are a reasonably intelligent person with a sizeable amount of experience playing this game.

Your playstyle consists of making purely logical deductions from purely objective observations that nobody can really disagree with all that much. At the very least, nobody can ever assert that your deductions are "absurd" or "contradictory" because, as a reasonably intelligent and experienced player, you are good enough to not make any absurd or blatantly contradictory assertions.

Because you play according to this methodical formula, your posts are largely devoid of gut reads and impulses of the sort that could easily confirm your alignment to those around you. Since you only give us logic, we are reduced to attacking only your logic, which is rarely a fruitful line of attack.

At least, that's what you think.

ICE, we both know that if I was required to give you "solid evidence" of you being scum, you would never lose a game as mafia, because you aren't an idiot, and can easily avoid dropping any "solid" scumtells. Fortunately for the rest of us, there are dimensions to town play that you have not fully grasped, and cannot be fabricated purely by axiomatic computation of each successive post.

I would like to share one of my metas with you.

@ Everyone, read some of this lylo, and tell me how you could have possibly caught me if you were only allowed to make logical arguments. Also, note how much more similar my play was to ICE's when I was scum.

Another great example of what I'm talking about is my very first post of that game.

You will find the kind of unnecessary qualification and narrowly cast explanation that I'm talking about throughout that entire game. Nothing I did was illogical, so I won that lylo handily, because neither of the other two players had the balls to go with their gut.

ICE, I know you don't want to believe me, but there

are

visible differences between your town meta and your scum meta. Your town play has more teeth in it, and flows a lot more naturally. Your scum play is choppy and contrived.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ ICE -

You don't even understand how futile this is.

@ everyone -

You need to click on the following link.

Don't ignore what I just said.

Click on it.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2379797

Read as much of that post as you want, and then scroll down two posts to see the scum's response. It's like a carbon copy of Ice's defense here.

Obvious scum is obvious.

@ ICE - if you've clicked the above link, you might be beginning to understand how hopeless this is. I

know

that you're scum, and I can and will continue torturing you until you give up and self-vote, or until somebody grows a pair and hammers.

It's not your fault buddy, you just have to rethink your strategy for scum. It won't work on players who actually understand how this game works

- archaebob

[Ivan the Pleasant]

@ Beck -

Did you click my link?