Newbie 1120 - The Scum in Sherlock (Over!)

[Scumhunter]

Hi foilist. Since D1 is "mislynch day" anyways, who cares right?!!! The worst thing I did was defend someone because I thought the case on them was bad. Omg, that same person actually IS scummy once they flake out and then they vote the person who was very activelydefending them because its an easy wagon!!! Still, no one seems to care D1 is ML day, lets lynch Scumhunter!!!! OMG!!!! He is probably the townie who cares the most about winning and will be a huge asset to us as the game goes on!!! Let's lynch him!!! That's smart!!! He dared to question a shitty tunneled case on page 5 when over the game wasn't contributing. OMG must be scum!!! OMG OMG OMG!!!! His posts annoy me so lets lynch him!!! OMGOMGOMG!!! OMG I JUST READ HIM POSTING THIS AND IM LIKE OMG WHAT A TOWN TELL, but im too lazy to unvote omg. Its ML day and we will learn so much from his flip!!! <3 <3 <3

vote DeityKabuto

Thor, tunneling is the worst attribute of a town-sided player. I'm not saying this to necessarily make you feel bad, but jesus christ, you refuse to look at my actions with the *possibility* shocking I know that I could be town. I mean if you are scum, cool, its fair game take away a threat now, but if you are town the fact you don't seem to "care" about whether I'm a ML or not is fucking infuriating, and just really bad especially since I think I'm a decently competent town player particularly in the late game. You know I take the game seriously and your whole case on why I'm scum is what? That I shared my opinion but didn't back it up with fact. I share my thoughts and feelings on my sleeve and it bleeds town (in before he is faking this aTe). Appeal to emotion is not a scumtell. If you think im faking and don't care about the game, what I will say is don't blame me when I flip town and you are like "oh he was scummy". I'm not scummy because you are too lazy to try to read my appeals that I'm a townie who legitimatley cares abotu the game. Just think about that if this lynch goes through on me. That you lynched a townie who cared about the outcome of the game more than anyone else probably on day 1 because of whatever reason (I still see nothing that even remotely makes sense) you think im mafia.

Scum don't care who is lynched. THey would have no motivation to thrust THEMSELVES into the spotlight to defend a player who is being wagoned on. I'll even admit now cloud became scummy as the day went on and he flaked out. flaking out is more indicative of scum play than town play really. you guys should let me live. seriously. i'd happily accept a cop checking me tonight. literally if I live I want to be checked by a cop if they exist which they do 50% of the time. WANTING TO LIVE IS NOT DESPERATE SCUM. FROM ME ITS DESPERATE TOWN WANTING TO PLAY THE GAME and not be lynched.

To everyone, really think about DeityKabuto's vote on me given how I defended their slot when me shutting the fuck up would have resulted in d1 being over and that slot lynched by now. Does that make ANY sense WHATSOEVER

[DeityKabuto]

Okay

Unvote

I do not see the reason to lynch a claimed VT so early, let's give this time.

I partially believe his claim.

But I understand Scumhunter's vote on me, which is because of frustration and a twist in words that I've said.

[Thor665]

Thor, tunneling is the worst attribute of a town-sided player. I'm not saying this to necessarily make you feel bad, but jesus Smurf, you refuse to look at my actions with the *possibility* shocking I know that I could be town.

Considering that you called me out for tunneling cloudocean I have to admit I find it 'meh' to deal with you calling me out for tunneling you. I think what you're seeing is actually application of pressure, not tunneling.
Also - let's be clear, I've looked at your actions and I can't figure out how they're supposed to look town. Yeah, I suppose if I squint and turn my head I could call them town, but let's be serious here and do a brief rundown.

1. Attacks me for 'tunneling' a player with a terrible case. Later votes this same player for being scummy once pressure is put on Scumhunter.
2. Accuses me of being scummy due to 'tells' in another game. Later refuses to explain or justify those tells, says it was just a gut feeling, and also clarfies that he was wrong to suggest them.
3. Pulls the ol' 'I'm not attacking you, I'm not attacking you!' defense.
4. Votes starttransmission for 'lurking' totally ignores ninjacheese who is lurking in a much scummier way, when I mention this ignores the point and never expands on starttransmission vote reasons.

I'm seriously supposed to look at this and try to figure out how it's coming from town and not go with the much simpler explanation that it's coming from scum, why is that?

Scum don't care who is lynched. THey would have no motivation to thrust THEMSELVES into the spotlight to defend a player who is being wagoned on. I'll even admit now cloud became scummy as the day went on and he flaked out. flaking out is more indicative of scum play than town play really.

1. I can think of lots of reasons scum would defend someone. I defend people when I'm scum all the time. Why is defending someone a town tell? Because if you can answer that it explains why scum do it.
2. For someone who calls AtE not scummy I consider it exceedinly silly to claim flaking, especially in a newbie, is scummy. Seriously - flaking is flaking, and is null. AtE is way scummier than flaking, and AtE isn't even all that scummy.

To everyone, really think about DeityKabuto's vote on me given how I defended their slot when me shutting the Smurf up would have resulted in d1 being over and that slot lynched by now. Does that make ANY sense WHATSOEVER

Unfortunately - welcome to DK's play.
So you're saying that by dint of you defending him he should have a definite town read on you? You still have no idea why scum would defend someone?

@Foilist - Yeah, speed hammers were most assuredly inbound, thank heaven you stopped them. In any case, I do look forward to actual thoughts from that slot.

[foilist13]

Ok, first off,

@Thor: Please link me to another newbie game where you have IC'd and are town. If no such game exists, then SE and town or just a town game.

Secondly I have no intention of voting or lynching Scumhunter today. I have seen his town play before and this doesn't look any different.

As far as the specific case against him, there are some ok points. He let that question go for pages and pages, and then finally did answer it. That really isn't much of a reason for me to think he's scum. He was able to produce an answer, nor did you respond to the specific instances he quoted.

My gut twinges on every other post from Thor, hence me wanting to see some of his meta. I also get gut twinges from Awesoma, simply because no one plays that way. How far up your ass does your head need to be to claim with no wagon, randomly move your vote around, and have nearly 100% sheeped opinions?

These two bother me more than anyone else. As far as the beginning of the game, I don't think Cloud was/is scum, I think Thor's case was bad then, and his new one is bad now. You are WAY too ok with L-1. So far you are the most anit-town IC I've ever seen.

We can NOT lynch ANYBODY until we hear from ALL of the lurkers/lurker slots that have been replaced.

Right now I have no read on at least three people, which literally all the scum could be hiding in. This is not an acceptable environment for choosing a lynch.


Awesoma - Weird weird weird, probably newbscum
Hellhound1 - Null. I can see his play coming from town or scum.
ninjacheese - Who the hell knows?
Torqez - Probably town.
DeityKabuto - Cloud seemed town. Diety is werid, but hasn't posted much yet.
hiplop - No idea yet.
Scumhunter - Town.
Thor665 - Horribly anti-town and misguided.

I would consider any of these people as possible lynches:

Thor, awesoma, ninjacheese.

vote: Thor

[Thor665]

@Thor: Please link me to another newbie game where you have IC'd and are town. If no such game exists, then SE and town or just a town game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=15590 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=15598 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=15619 - mafia
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=15898 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=17228 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=17472 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=16301 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=16399 - town
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=16948 - town

Above is my most recently completed batch of Newbies - about 5 seconds clicking on my topics on my user page will get you more if you wish. I left in the most recent mafia so you can actually try to get meta on me as mafia too, since singular purpose meta is worth nothing. I do end up as town an awful lot in newbies though, so hunting down my Newb scum performances will take a bit of searching.

As far as the specific case against him, there are some ok points. He let that question go for pages and pages, and then finally did answer it. That really isn't much of a reason for me to think he's scum. He was able to produce an answer, nor did you respond to the specific instances he quoted.

Actually, he produced a fob off answer and never produced specific instances to quote.
Please show me where he did and I'll immediately sheep you in voting myself.

I think Thor's case was bad then, and his new one is bad now. You are WAY too ok with L-1. So far you are the most anit-town IC I've ever seen.

Comfort with L-1 is not anti-town, scummy, or town, it is null. I would reverse with you are WAY too sensitive about L-1 and will have produced exactly as much info on your worthiness as a player and alignment of your role as you just did with mine.
Being okay with L-1 does not make me an anti-town IC. You're silly.

Also, everything about me in your post you note as anti-town, then you vote me. Color me not sold.

[hitogoroshi]

Vote Count #13

Scumhunter:

Thor665, hiplop,

DeityKabuto

, Awesoma (L-2)

DeityKabuto:

Hellhound1, Scumhunter

Awesoma:

Torqez

Thor665:

foilist13

Not Voting:

foilist13

, ninjacheese,

Scumhunter

, DeityKabuto

Deadline is on July 6th, 2011, at 2PM Central Time.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

***

Torqez will be LA the next two days. Scumhunter is V/LA 6/24 - 6/26.

[hiplop]

Thor, i'm briefly looking through your meta, i dont really like meta because it can be WIFOM, but your play in that mafia game is strikingly similar to your play now..

hmmm

[Thor665]

Hint - if you want to apply pressure you should explain 'how' it's similar, show examples, or even vote me and be willing to say you find it similar just to force a reaction.

As stands; you continue your scummily safe play.

[Thor665]

@MOD - foilist is voting me.

[hiplop]

Well, you were being super blunt in that game, much like this one. From what i remember, you didn't play very abruptly when you were toown last game. There you threw your vote around, much like in this game, Had no problem with l-1, Tunneled a player to extreme (snake there, cloud here). Had two definite towns (small detail obviously, just kind of coincidental, no real point) Hellhound/awsoma.
UNVOTE:

VOTE: Thor i usually don't like lynching the IC day one, but i think this is OK considering we have 3 people qualified to be IC's in this game.

[Thor665]

The very first game on that list;

I tunnel park and then Gud
I call hunt and Andrew town.
I push people to L-1 early and say L-1 on Page 5 is not a problem.
Town.

I don't know about playing 'abruptly' in the game with you...sure, maybe I did/didn't, I'm not even sure how to track abruptness.

Avoiding lynching someone because of a perceived quality irrelevant to gameplay is actually pretty silly. My IC status should not adjust willingness to lynch me and neither should presence of other ICs.

[Thor665]

Hmmm, that was also a hop from Scumhunter to me - when did I become scummier than Scumhunter?

[hiplop]

The ic thing: I guess, i dont think its fair for the newbies if their teacher dies day 1. Then again, ICS tend to die night one so i guess it doesnt matter.

TBH #250 just made me feel good about scumhunter, he probably is more likely scum than you, but i think im on to something and want to get it rolling

Your tone or something is way different in those town games. The abruptness/bold attitude seems to be as close as i can tell, a scum meta. You seem much "nicer" in that top town game, as well as in the game i played with you. While in this game, and the scum one, you tend to be snarkier, and rather blunt.

Add in Foilists reasoning and we have a pretty solid case tbh

[Thor665]

Add in Foilists reasoning and we have a pretty solid case tbh

No.
Though, I'd love to see Scumhunter's opinion of bluntness, me, and town/scum tells.

[foilist13]

Okay, let's do this;

cjdrum, Townie, was lynched Day 1
McGriddle, Townie, was killed Night 1
Prosaurus, Townie, was lynched Day 2
Nobody died Night 2

Sorry to see ol' McGriddle bought it...I think i caught him as scum once? Whatever, just a reminder of who is town so I can focus on potential filthy liars. Right;

Bleh - I actually found Romanus' first vote post scummy, but he's me and the IC so I suppose that's town points.

I like crazy's pressure on Misder. I'd probably have immediately voted to support it and also to start an early bandwagon.

Fairly strong town read off zMuffinMan for my 'oppose the IC in newbie RVS' tell that I don't think has been wrong yet.

I would have definitely wanted a Misder lynch by this stage (page 3) simply because the people being so careful as to not even express their own opinions always look super scummy to me.

If L and Misder are scum together they are owning my face with their play Day 1.

Oh gawds - the quote wall exchange between Prosaurus and crazy just hurts to read. I'm skimming it, Pro is town and the interesting bits from crazy was that he distanced from the potential Romanus/Thor lynch and hopped on starting up the Prosaurus wagon.

Now we're getting somewhere. You're giving reasons for your actions. Not particularly good, but they're explanations. Now do you realize that that's not how scumhunting works? People need to individually develop their own opinions of other people, not just blindingly follow the person who's voting (i.e. bandwagonning).

I actually rather disagree with this.

Woof - I'm sorry I don't have more opinions, but honestly all of you are mostly shuffling around spewing newb tells from your bodies and it's a royal pain to read through and try to extract actual tells from as, really, the bulk of the thread is you guys discussing stuff that has *zero* in game relevance to being town/scum. Discussions on how an IC should/shouldn't play, mention of time zones, mention of game theory. It's all just fluff and I'm kicking at it but it mostly remains fluff.

My top scum reads at this stage are Misder (still) crazy, and that Winged dude. reasons are;

1. Misder still for the RVS stuff - he's barely been posting since then and nobody is getting opinions out of him - gah!

2. crazy has some interesting shifts in vote position around the cjdrum lynch, I'm wanting to see if it's him or Prosaurus who ends up hammering. (Prosaurus...and five bucks says this will be the "tell" that hangs him)

3. Vote analysis reasons - I'll probably get into these more as I catch up.

Just putting it out there, if cjdrum isn't mafia, mafia is crazy+romanus. That's guts right there, but I like my intuition.

Has this been justified? It better have been addressed in Day 2.

I REFUSE to read those walls by Misder at the end of Day 1. You can ask me a specific question about them, but you better link to or quote the relevant section. Good gawd my eyes hurt now.

Okay, I'm up through Page 9 and I really do need to stop now. Might attack it some more later tonight, but might just sluff off till tomorrow.

Ok, this is your second post from the last game on the list above. Your first post was just a meet and greet without real content. There is a fundamental difference in tone between this post and your posts in this game.

In both you maintain a level of silliness and generally don't take things too seriously. That's fine. However, here you are less aggressive. Your questions are inherently constructive rather than only challenging. In our game here though, you are more confrontational than aggressive.

Secondly, you open here with a full set of reads, where as in this game you are blathering on, making crappy semantics arguments, offering deals we all know you won't follow up on, and generally being an extremely anti-town player. Most importantly, you seem perfectly happy to excuse the lurkers. You post reads only intermittently, and without any real weight behind most of them allowing you to change them later.

Yes you are significantly scummier than Scumhunter.

I'm going to keep reading into these past games to see how it compares, but for the moment what I've seen isn't encouraging.

[DeityKabuto]

The very first game on that list;

I tunnel park and then Gud
I call hunt and Andrew town.
I push people to L-1 early and say L-1 on Page 5 is not a problem.
Town.

I don't know about playing 'abruptly' in the game with you...sure, maybe I did/didn't, I'm not even sure how to track abruptness.

Avoiding lynching someone because of a perceived quality irrelevant to gameplay is actually pretty silly. My IC status should not adjust willingness to lynch me and neither should presence of other ICs.

Vote Thor

[Thor665]

Secondly, you open here with a full set of reads, where as in this game you are blathering on, making crappy semantics arguments, offering deals we all know you won't follow up on, and generally being an extremely anti-town player. Most importantly, you seem perfectly happy to excuse the lurkers. You post reads only intermittently, and without any real weight behind most of them allowing you to change them later.

I'm scummy because of a replace in post on Day 2 of one game I'm different in how many reads and thoughts I have than a start the game on Day 1 that hasn't even got to Day 2 yet?

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!

What is this, and why should anyone take it seriously? (DK doesn't count, because he's DK, but considering what just went down in [redacted] he should have a better opinion of how good I am reading players who are playing silly.)

[DeityKabuto]

Secondly, you open here with a full set of reads, where as in this game you are blathering on, making crappy semantics arguments, offering deals we all know you won't follow up on, and generally being an extremely anti-town player. Most importantly, you seem perfectly happy to excuse the lurkers. You post reads only intermittently, and without any real weight behind most of them allowing you to change them later.

I'm scummy because of a replace in post on Day 2 of one game I'm different in how many reads and thoughts I have than a start the game on Day 1 that hasn't even got to Day 2 yet?

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!

What is this, and why should anyone take it seriously? (DK doesn't count, because he's DK, but considering what just went down in [redacted] he should have a better opinion of how good I am reading players who are playing silly.)

Did my pressure work?

Unvote

[Thor665]

What pressure? The totality of my post and frustration was addressing foilist using one of the worst meta cases I've seen...this month. Actually, Scumhunter's might be worse for failure to explain it at all, but, whatevs.
All I did in response to you was call your play bad...so...yes?

[DeityKabuto]

What pressure? The totality of my post and frustration was addressing foilist using one of the worst meta cases I've seen...this month. Actually, Scumhunter's might be worse for failure to explain it at all, but, whatevs.
All I did in response to you was call your play bad...so...yes?

Anyways, explain what this tunneling with Gud was all about.

[Thor665]

Why do you want me to explain a tunnel on a player in another game that is already over?

[DeityKabuto]

Nevermind.

But I am getting more of a town feeling from Scumhunter than you Thor665.

[hiplop]

DK do you even read the game? or just kind of pick names you like dislike and assume their scum?

[Thor665]

@hiplop - a strong suggestion for the health of the game. Don't debate the DK's play quality. That way lies madness.
I would suggest, regardless of his alignment, him seeing me as more scummy than Scumhunter is actually a positive sign for me and a negative for Scumhunter.

Also, question - what's your opinion of foilist presenting a Day 2 replace in post by me as an example of how my playstyle is different? Also, go a step further and read what he posted, and tell me if you think my reads are better presented, clearer, and less ephemeral.

[Thor665]

@foilist - how do you feel about a hiplop lynch, and how do you feel about how he shifted from Scumhunter to me?