Newbie 1116 -- Game Over

[VisceraEyes]

where did I go? I went to bed, got up, went to school, came home, did homework, played video games, read the mafia stuff, found Tommie's essay pointless and suspicious.

I am now in a dilema. I still think Cobbler is scummy cause of the miss JJ thing but I'm not sure between Tommie and Blue.
Blue- says random stuff and votes for me stupidly.
Tommie- Much ado about nothing. (said loads that made no sense.) It looked like scum who didn't know what to do so he tried to write stuff which failed.

I shall not unvote because I think of the two, Blue is currently most suspicious of the two and if we're scumhunting t'would be a waste of a vote on cobbler coz no one would belive me.

FoS- Cobblerfone
Fos- Tommie Uzumaki

YES CYMRU YES

Keep it up my guy! On your points...

If you want to vote for Cobbler, go for it...but make a case for him! You don't know who will believe you and who won't. Especially if your case is strong. I don't find him particularly scummy, but maybe you see something I don't. That's what this is about, making your case and voting for who you find the most suspicious.

[cymru96]

I appologise for FoS'ing cobblerfone, I thought you were JJ's replacement.

[VisceraEyes]

@Tomie
After rereading the posts in question, I explained my points pretty clearly and answered Grimm's accusations accordingly. Having done so, I reread your post...it reads like you're tunneling me based on the fact that I threw up my hands, then came back and got into the game. I don't know if you've reached this part in the thread (you appear to be writing analyses as you read up to them...instead of reading the whole thread FIRST, which I HIGHLY recommend), but I explained that I'm used to a MUCH faster-paced playing style. I apologized to everyone for my little freak-out and pretty much everyone except you and Workdawg have pretty much let it go.

[Tomie Uzumaki]

@Viscera
Sure, I could have waited. However, it's getting closer and closer to deadline. I don't have much time tomorrow ad tuesday. And there are points you could already respond to. I did it for the latter, so that you could at least respond to those points.
Also, why are you talking about the link from Cymru's game? If you're talking about my reason for my vote, the post I've linked Cymru to has questions as well besides asking for that link. He's ignoring those big time.

@Workdawg
IIOA is something different. I've mentioned in that post what I think is scummy about Viscera with explanations why.

@Cymru
Either you're basing your entire argument on my points against Viscera or you've ignored my other posts. Try again.

I'll look over the dicussion between Grimmjow and Cobbler in more detail tomorrow and will post a more detailed version about Viscera when I have the time.

EDIT: Why are players accusing me of tunneling when I'm mentioning every player?
Link to where you replied to Grimmjow accordingly. And yes, I'm mentioning the 'giving up' part as it's scummy. Scummy things don't get ignored by me.

[Workdawg]

I really don't see the analysis part. Maybe others do...

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.12

bluepokemon1234 - 3 - Workdawg, cymru96, VisceraEyes
cymru96 - 3 - bigAl, bluepokemon1234, Tomie Uzumaki
Cobblerfone - 1 - Grimmjow
Workdawg - 1 - The Fonz

Not Voting: Cobblerfone

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: June 30 -- (expired on 2011-06-30 11:00:00)

V/LA: ...

[VisceraEyes]

Viscera:
-My point against Workdawg about him not scumhunting applies for a big part to Viscera as well. You can see it in her first posts already. She questions Grimmjow’s RV, which she later admits that she can feel he thinks his reason was valid, though she sees it as defending Workdawg. The first part means that she can see why he’s questioning Yonzy, so the conclusion she’s making doesn’t add up. Later comes Cymru mentioning he doesn’t want to appear scummy. We only get a question, which doesn’t mean anything and when looking at the opinion she gives later on, this question was strange. EDIT: The same could be said about Cymru’s ‘flip’. Wow, Big EDIT. After mentioning she can see why NewbTown-Cymru would worry about suspicions, she still wants to hear why he worried about it. Very scummy. Edit question: What would you have thought of Cymru had he kept playing the noob-card to defend himself? Next up, she mentioned that she believes active-lurking is one of the scummiest things. Instead of calling those players out, she ‘warns’ them. There was also her vote on Zihark, which comes closest to scumhunting, but got minus points there when she directs other players towards Cymru by asking other players their opinion on him. I could continue this point, but then it would become too long.
-Then comes her post full with opinions on some players. I don’t see the points against BigAl and Grimmjow. But that’s not the important bit. That comes later on as BigAl responded to her case. She never mentions it and I’m wondering why. This points gets even worse as she mentions that most points still stand against him after BigAl posted his explanations.
-One of her accusations she made was against Miss JJ, who only responded to the part aimed at her. In post 148, Viscera does exactly the same to Grimmjow. To make things worse, it’s at that time that she refers to the less active players. I can see this as an attempt to get attentiuon elsewhere, a point Cymru also has against him. And as an extra, she later does have something to say about Grimmjow’s analysis in the post in which she votes him.
Talking about the case against Grimmjow, Grimmjow explained a lot in his response to you. Even with questions. Yet, you ignored it completely by mentioning he doesn’t state why your case is bad. Which is exactly what he did.
-I think it was already clear that I didn’t like her ‘no lynch’ vote.
-And yes, I also didn’t like Viscera’s quick turn-around. First we have the vote against Grimmjow, which will be the wagon she’ll be pushing towards the end. She unvotes out of rage that nobody had responded (which isn’t quite strange due to the inactiveness which was present at that time) and then decides to stop scumhunting for the day. Eventually, she also stops with that. One thing needs to be added as mentioned before, she also fully ignored Grimmjow’s defense as she doesn’t respond to any of his points. And last, my thoughts about this gets further reinforced as she has mentioned somewhere after I replaced in that Workdawg had valid reasons to vote her. I need to find it sometimish :/

(This is up to the part where she went for the no-lynch. Perhaps now you guys understand why it's taking so long >.<)

@Tomie
All I see as 'points' against me was his insistence that I had MULTIPLE oversights/misinterpretations/exaggerations/whatever (I got to type it again! ^^) when as I saw it there was only one - the one where I said Grimm had more votes than he did. As I saw it, the fact that I 1) Mistakenly said that Yonzy (I think) voted for him (oversight), 2) Mistakenly said he had 2 votes on him (exaggeration), and 3) Explained where I got my numbers to Miss JJ (misinterpretation) was only one mistake. Grimm saw it as 3. That's what happened. Grimmjow agreed to disagree with me on that point, as it's semantics.

I wasn't scumhunting with my vote on Zihark. That should be obvious from the post in which I did it. I was pressuring him for activity, something you said I didn't do. I didn't just 'warn' people about being inactive. I placed a vote on him to get him to start posting. What I did with cymru? THAT was scumhunting. I was asking a question of town, trying to gauge what people thought of him, to use in analysis later. That's the CORE of scumhunting, so I don't even know what to say to this point. Sorry I was trying to scumhunt?

The thing about my argument with Grimmjow is that a lot of it was based on passion. I was pissed off for no one commenting on my case against him. HE was pissed off about my case against him. Tempers flared and votes were cast. Now, I DID say he didn't explain why my case was bad. At the time, I believed it. Looking back objectively, I agree that he stated his case pretty well and we were just needlessly arguing with each other.

[bigAl]

Okay, process of elimination here.

Probably not scum:
- VE - I've covered him elsewhere and still seems a reasonable conclusion.
- Blue - too blatant to be scum?
- BigAl (obviously :) )

Leaving:
- cymru96 - I can't help but think that cy is not ignoring our repeated requests with some kind of malicious intent behind them. It's not a good thing to draw that kind of attention as either faction so I see it as kind of a wash there. Most of his actual contributions have been pretty easy conclusions to come to (a lot of OMGUS votes, etc.) - not a lot of original ideas. I could say he's not trying to hunt scum, but from what I've seen from him, I'm not sure I'd expect a ton of scum hunting either way. Hard to say.

- Tomie Uzumaki

Yonzy

- Gut feeling is bordering somewhere between 'slightly scummy' and 'can't really remember anything about TU'. Time to reread his posts. In general I feel like most of his (his, right?) posts are good in theory but weak on the examples - for example:

-Most post from Workdawg are easy to summarise. They were either to tell about his absence or about what events have happened.. Why the latter is scummy this time? I ask everybody to look back at post 99. Can anyone tell me what his stance is against Cym in general? I know that he disagrees with the attacks against Cym, but what is his opinion about Cym? And Cym is just an example here. You don't see anything about anything he has seen as scummy.

In theory, good point about not seeing anything as scummy. However, I disagree that he doesn't talk about his stance against cy. I think he makes it pretty clear in the infamous post #99 that he doesn't think that his "typo" is a big deal - meaning he finds nothing scummy about that as I read it. I know you said it's just an example, but it's a poor example in my opinion.

- Grimmjow - I've spoken on him for a while before. To come back to.

To do (when I'm less heat-stroky/asleep - tomorrow morning, I promise I'll stop putting this off!):
- Cobblerfone

tucah

- Workdawg
- The Fonz

Miss JJ

Unvote

Just a quick check:

My point against Workdawg about him not scumhunting applies for a big part to Viscera as well. You can see it in her first posts already. She questions Grimmjow’s RV, which she later admits that she can feel he thinks his reason was valid, though she sees it as defending Workdawg. The first part means that she can see why he’s questioning Yonzy, so the conclusion she’s making doesn’t add up.

Are the "she"s/"her"s here referring to VE? Cause the only girl in the game is (was) JJ, right?

BTW, I can't find any of the Fonz's previous games.

Ironic that you can't find the games of the guy with more than everyone else here combined I think (over six thousand posts) :)
http://mafiascum.net/forum/search.php?s ... or_id=6932
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=The_Fonz

[bluepokemon1234]

just 3 to go lets go voters you better vote quicklyer. and if it hurrys this danm day up VOTE: me insane with boredom blue is insane with boredom.

[bluepokemon1234]

1 more to go @post 706 I cant read it all I just cant.

[cymru96]

clever...real clever.

[bigAl]

Someone unvote please - we (or at least I) have more today this day.

[The Fonz]

OK. Fully caught up to where I replaced in. I'm now very confident Blue is town, and Viscera. Workdawg is still pe #1 in my eyes. Cymru could be scum, but I still think on balance it's a playstyle wagon and therefore bad. I'm tempted to support Grimm's bigAl wagon if nothing can be gotten on WD- he seems to be doing a fair amount of IC advising, but very little in the way of original or incisive scumhunting, and gives the feeling of hedging his bets. I will post a more detailed rebuttal to Workdawg's defence against the IIoA charges with my next post.

Spoiler: How I got there

From P17:

SCUM
Miss JJ (Overly defensive even in passing:)

OVERLY DEFENSIVE? Brilliant, scum sighting right here.

As I said before, 'Too town to be town' is MUCH more of a fallacy than 'too scum to be scum.' A lot of raw noobs/VIs look like scum due to inexperience, but actually also are scum. Too town is never valid.

Grimm and VE still seems like town on town to me. They're getting along better, so that's good I guess. FWIW, my initial vote on VE was a pressure vote, and when he flipped his shit, it didn't help AT ALL. Am I convinced he's scum,

See, the way he flipped his shit looked incredibly town to me.

Cobblerfone seems to be going for the 'commenting on everything but not being really firm on anything' type behaviour.

oking for scum rather than just floating along.

Power roles can feel free to ignore this, but this is what I would do:
@Cop: If you exist, don't reveal yourself, that goes without saying. But I'd say look at bigAl tonight.
@Jailkeeper: see above, except imprison bigAl.
[/WIFOM for Mafia][/quote]

Directing power roles is scummy.

Also, asking a cop to investigate someone... perhaps because this would prevent someone else from being investigated, such as yourself. Telling power roles what to do is almost never a good thing for the town.

Okay that was weak. And telling power roles what to do and how useful or detrimental it is depends on the situation, like not wanting the IC to be lynched unless I'm really sure you're scum. And you appear to be doing the thing that you are accusing me of doing, trying to getting out of investigation. Plus you missed the "ignore this if you want, this is just what I would do" disclaimer.

No, it's always detrimental. Directing the power roles at the very least hints you aren't one, which is bad for town if you're town. 'It's just what I would do' doesn't fly as a defence, because why on Earth would you want scum to know what you are doing if you're a cop? Cops/docs/JKs can make up their own minds, thank you very much.

UNVOTE: Grimmjow, VOTE: Cymru for not contributing any suspicions for pages and pages, and then finally contributing illogical ones.

This is scummy. Whether someone's suspicions are logical or illogical, especially in a newbie game, isn't often that relevant a consideration. Some people are just dumb. In this case, his suspicion on Miss JJ is a common form of newbie town paranoia- 'That player said I did Y because I was scum, but actually it was an honest mistake, so they're scum for trying to make me look scummy for an honest mistake.' Town newbies often assume the explanations for their actions are obvious. OMGUS, based around the complete inability to realize that just because

you

realize your actions were a result of one thing, that a player looking at it from the outside in good faith can't come to a different conclusion.

Aaaaand workdawg with the opportunistic wagon hop.

Does anyone else think Workdawg's vote is oppurtunistic? He was defending Cymru earlier but now he votes for him after Cymru gets three FoS and one vote.

Yes, but why are you asking for other people's opinions rather than giving yours? 'Does anyone else think this is scummy' always pings my scumdar. On the other hand, it kinda suggests the two of you are not partners. Hmmm.

@Cobbler
I don't mind a vote on cymru, opportunistic or not. If he's town, he'll step up his game. If he's not, well, the vote is well placed isn't it?

Conversely, if Workdawg is town, a vote seems like a natural progression from 3 FoS. If he's scum, yes. That seems pretty opportunistic. However, as he's the only one putting a vote on him for now, that could be viewed as...silly?...of mafia because there would be attention on him. I don't know, it seems more like a town-vote than a scum one.

He's not the only one putting a vote on, though. He voted immediately after Grimmjow did. FOS, FOS, FOS, wait until someone else votes then jump the wagon... well, it's hard to see the justification, but I don't see anything good.

seriously though, my reasoning doesnt suck. I said something which was a typo, she wouldnt let it drop and I think she was trying to make me a scapegoat and try to get me lynched.

The problem here is 'She didn't believe you, and was honestly convinced it was a scumslip' is a much more obvious explanation of her actions. I mean, why does 'even after I said it was a typo' matter? If you're scum, you're not going to say it was a scumslip, are you? You're going to say it was a typo.

Grimmjow also uses the scummy 'too defensive' argument... sigh.

If the cop feels they should investigate me, that's fine. I just didn't want it wasted on Bluepokemon or VE or whomever. I just think bigAl is likely scum, but if he's scummy just because he's trying to pass off as a neutral town-IC I'd rather have him investigated. It wasn't supposed to be an issue, just an aside of advice, in case the cop and/or jailkeeper if they exist are like bluepokemon, cymru or whomever.

Posturing ('I don't mind being investigated' -HAI LOOK GUYZ I HAZ NOTHING 2 HIDE!) and also, the distinct possibility of 'Hey cop, why don't you investigate the IC so that when we kill him, town doesn't have any more information tomorrow?'

Also, I forget if it's been brought up yet but here's a couple of rules that are good to follow:

1. Don't vote for yourself.

2. Don't cause the lynching vote on someone until they claim their role and there's been time for a counter-claim. Depending on how scummy they are or how much of a risk taker that person might be, THEN we decide to lynch them or not. Usually if there isn't a counterclaim, we don't. If there IS a counterclaim, then we lynch one of them.

@IC, this is good, yes? I wouldn't want people thinking I'm trying to manipulate them through some kind of ridiculous scheme.

Giving obvious advice is a great way of 'looking helpful' without going out of your way to 'find scum.'

oh well should i vote cy then? if he turns town you can get me tommore

Blue is town. Seriously.

That's actually one of the easiest ways scum can get town-cred in a newbie game without trying. But then, you ignore the tips anyway...
/

Cobbler acknowledging that his advice doesn't make him town and correcting someone who feels like trusting him on the basis of it strongly mitigates any scumminess in the act itself. Scum who are trying to gain town cred by being 'helpful' don't generally point out how easy it is for scum to do that.

What that boils down to is I just don't know. I think at this point I'd be ok with a lynch on Cy or Blue, just because they're playing poorly and aren't really participating or posting any content at all. Between the two of them, I'd go for Blue, however. Cy at least has made SOME points, whereas Blue has just been all over the place.

What they're doing, is pretty much everything that normally leads to town lynches in newbies (or on newbies in other games). 'Being all over the place' is not something that's confined to mafiosi.

I'm going to put pressure on Al now, and take a leap here, but:

Vote: bigAl

This is a pretty decent vote. Eschewing the playstyle wagons that were starting to give me worries about him again, showing independent thought and some guts (it's hard to get a day one wagon on an IC).

[cymru96]

This could be 2 things.
1-He's scum and is trying to get people to unvote him, as bigAl said.
2- He's town and suspects someone else so wants people to unvote him.
OR
bigAl and blue are scum and Al is trying to cover him by getting people to unvote.

[Cobblerfone]

Grimmjow also uses the scummy 'too defensive' argument... sigh.

It's less like Miss JJ was defensive than she started putting up defenses without anyone attacking her; with an appeal to probability to boot.

[The Fonz]

Before i forget, taking positions without giving reasons is not a scumtell at all, either. The converse, however, is.

[Cobblerfone]

I read the first couple of The Fonz's posts from that Cold War one.

Before i forget, taking positions without giving reasons is not a scumtell at all, either. The converse, however, is.

Eh? bigAl, you're the IC, is this right? Because this makes no sense. How is taking positions while giving reasons a scumtell instead of null? Or did I completely forget what converse means?

[The Fonz]

No, taking positions while giving reasons is a perfectly acceptable style of play. The converse of voting without laying out your reasoning is giving your reasoning without committing to a vote - IE, not putting your money where your mouth is, a form of active lurking.

[Cobblerfone]

No, taking positions while giving reasons is a perfectly acceptable style of play. The converse of voting without laying out your reasoning is giving your reasoning without committing to a vote - IE, not putting your money where your mouth is, a form of active lurking.

I'm having a tough time deciding between you and bigAl.

[bigAl]

This could be 2 things.
1-He's scum and is trying to get people to unvote him, as bigAl said.
2- He's town and suspects someone else so wants people to unvote him.
OR
bigAl and blue are scum and Al is trying to cover him by getting people to unvote.

Or, he's town and doesn't give a @&#% about playing anymore. I never said he's scum - in fact just the opposite- he was one of the two people that I had on my town list.

[Workdawg]

I just checked this and saw blue put himself at L-1...

UNVOTE: blue

I'll catch up later though.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.13

bluepokemon1234 - 3 - cymru96, VisceraEyes, bluepokemoon1234
Cobblerfone - 1 - Grimmjow
cymru96 - 1 - Tomie Uzumaki
Workdawg - 1 - The Fonz

Not Voting: Cobblerfone, bigAl, Workdawg

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: July 5 -- (expired on 2011-07-05 11:00:00)

V/LA: ...

[bigAl]

Anyway, continuing my list:

- Workdawg: When player A votes for player B, and I think that player B is town, my first instinct is to assume player A is scum. Bad habit, I think - I'm trying to look at the reasons they voted them and check if they are reasonable first. Workdawg's voted VE first (later cy and blue). The "too town to be town" argument might be legitimate if all they are doing is providing advice (don't put people at L-1, etc.), and not doing any real scum hunting. A kind of active lurking while appearing helpful. That being said, I don't see VE doing this - he gives a lot of advice but he's not afraid to vote and cast his suspicions as well. He doesn't like VE's "I'm quitting" post - I agree with Fonz here that I saw this as townish, not scummy as Workdawg did. Later, he says, "I find it A LOT easier to defend myself than to find scum." - if you do good scum-hunting, you shouldn't have to defend yourself much. Defending yourself too much always makes me suspicious.

- The Fonz

Miss JJ

: I tend to agree with a lot of what the Fonz is saying here. He's perhaps overly sure of himself, but makes decent points. "Seriously, Workdawg is noncommittal scum, guys." is aggressive but makes the point. Most of #712, I agree with - "OVERLY DEFENSIVE? Brilliant, scum sighting right here.", "See, the way he flipped his shit looked incredibly town to me.", "Directing power roles is scummy.", etc. I'm sticking with a tentative "not scum" on Fonz here.

UNVOTE: Grimmjow, VOTE: Cymru for not contributing any suspicions for pages and pages, and then finally contributing illogical ones.

This is scummy. Whether someone's suspicions are logical or illogical, especially in a newbie game, isn't often that relevant a consideration. Some people are just dumb. In this case, his suspicion on Miss JJ is a common form of newbie town paranoia- 'That player said I did Y because I was scum, but actually it was an honest mistake, so they're scum for trying to make me look scummy for an honest mistake.' Town newbies often assume the explanations for their actions are obvious. OMGUS, based around the complete inability to realize that just because you realize your actions were a result of one thing, that a player looking at it from the outside in good faith can't come to a different conclusion.

This was a "hey, try to contribute something useful to the town" vote, not a "let's lynch you cause you're scum for being illogical" vote. No different than VE's #66.

No, taking positions while giving reasons is a perfectly acceptable style of play. The converse of voting without laying out your reasoning is giving your reasoning without committing to a vote - IE, not putting your money where your mouth is, a form of active lurking.

I realize that I do this a lot but it's how I do it - I don't think it's active lurking if I'm still making it clear who my suspicions are even if I don't vote them.


- Cobblerfone

tucah

: (to do after I do some yardwork for a while)

[bigAl]

I know this is old news now but I happened to be looking through Miss JJ's old posts and realized something here. Despite cymru96's repeated claims that JJ thought that he was scum, that's hardly true at all. I've isolated everything JJ said on the subject:

#84: HUH?

#87: Cymru needs to come back and explain not one, but two posts now. Maybe this will help to get him talking.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Cymru

. Newbtown who can't articulate or newbscum who slipped - either way I can't just let this go.

#114: Okay, first some to say about the Cymru slip/typo. Yes, it could very well have been a typo but I found it interesting to note some of the responses to it. [talking about various

responses

, not about the typo itself] At this point I have read Cymru's explanation, which is plausible, but I think reactions to his slip/typo are far more interesting than the slip/typo itself.

How on earth do you get "I think he's scum" out of that? She says clearly it's plausible that it's a typo. I count 38 posts for cymru, of which 15 of them are (at least partly) about how JJ is scum. I wonder if there are ulterior motives here.

Reading through Cobblers posts now.

[VisceraEyes]

I can't stress enough how bad it is for your team to self-vote, blue. I know this has been said a lot, but as it's so important I feel okay saying it again.

Do not self-vote. Your team needs you alive. If you don't want to play, request a replacement.

UNVOTE: bluepokemon1234

I know changing my mind at this point is going to be viewed as scummy, but we need more information to divine bluepokemon's alignment and maybe his replacement will help us there. The thing is, I've seen scum self-vote before (as blue did earlier this game) when only one or two votes are on them, but I've literally NEVER seen scum put themselves 1 vote away from being lynched. I'm not saying it doesn't happen...only that I HAVE seen town put themselves on the edge.

My cymru vs blue lynch seems to have lost not only potency, but relevancy. Everyone seems to think that cymru is town and blue is new and impossible to judge, and I think I agree with both of these assessments. I'm going to go back and do an ISO of the following people: Workdawg, Tomie and bigAl. My reads before doing so are, in order of most likely to be scum to least:

Workdawg
Tomie
bigAl