Open 315 - Quack Mafia (Game Over)

[Sathoris]

Hmm, with only two kills out of a possible 4 I think the mafia's kill got blocked and a quack's 'kill' got protected. So claiming protects should out all quacks and give the mafia a list of real doctors to hit. Then again we can use the quack's 'protect' to target players we suspect of mafia and test if they live through the protect or not.

Not claiming could raise issues later on when someone claims quack that really is a mafia orchestrating those kills.

I'm in favor.

RVS: VOTE: PopsofCtown

Elfen didn't like the scum PM and replaced out!

[Sathoris]

I'll go next for funsies. I protected Izak because his name was above mine on the playerlist.

[Sathoris]

This thread is lurking.

FoS: Open 315

Waiting for everyone to post their protects. Get a move on guys!

[Sathoris]

I'd say that question is directed at the wrong people. Choosing a random target coincides with the "fear" of being a quack. The reason being it's random to be a quack to your protect target should be random. The people who chose a specific target with reason did so knowing they'd deliberatly picked someone who could've died. I would rather want to hear their motives.

[Sathoris]

EBWOP:

"The reason being it's random to be a quack

s

o your protect target should be random"

[Sathoris]

"Question to all who

randomly

chose who to protect"

I don't think people who chose with a reason would feel this question was directed at them. Aside from that the question is pretty pointless, what were you hoping to achieve from it?

[Sathoris]

Hmm, with only two kills out of a possible 4 I think the mafia's kill got

blocked

and a quack's 'kill' got protected.

Why do you think there is the possibility of "blocking" in this game?

By blocked I actually just meant protected by a doc. There isn't a possibility of blocking in the game because it's an open game and we know there are only doctors. But discussion on this is pointless untill we have everyone's protect target.

EBWOP:

"The reason being it's random to be a quack

s

o your protect target should be random"

*frowns deeply* Any reason your s was bolded? I can't think of a reason why, and I'm pretty sure you're not breadcrumbing. (Not to nitpick or anything, just wondering.)

Also, something I've heard is that if you make your vote too RVS-ish, it's scummy, and that a light scumtell could be that you say your vote is RVS, what do you guys think of that? (I'm sort of confused.)

My s was bolded because it was to indicate a spelling error in my above post. Saying your vote is RVS isn't a scumtell.

"Question to all who

randomly

chose who to protect"

I don't think people who chose with a reason would feel this question was directed at them. Aside from that the question is pretty pointless, what were you hoping to achieve from it?

It wasn't directed at people who chose with reason. If you have a reason and you stated why then I don't care right now.

I wanted to know why those who chose "randomly" chose, because there is no RVS for scum and they don't get protection power...so my form of questioning would be to deduce some sort of response that might allow them to slip up---however, taking the time to explain all of my questioning practices has made the question null and invalid.

however, I would still like you to answer why you chose who you chose instead of arguing the point down and around it-- it's a simple request and I hope you oblige.

I chose Izak because his name was above mine on the player list. Already mentioned this. Only your question was if the people who chose randomly were worried about being a quack. Not why they chose randomly. Also you said you protected jilynne after someone else already said he'd protected jilynne. Safe choice for scum to pick. And you completely changed your mind about the question after I bring it up.

The question is based on the fact that the picks were random-- so the question that I asked is

only

relevant to those who chose

random

protection...

Most of the people that picked for a reason explained their reasoning...and if they didn't the question was directed at them

also

...

And back again.

I wanted to know why those who chose "randomly" chose

Why do you flip flop between your intentiones?

VOTE: Glowball

[Sathoris]

We're clearly out of the RVS and Izak's vote was clearly inside the RVS.

Did you realyl just vote for Don because he randomly targeted someone to protect? Why not vote for Iceguy? Do I detect double standards?

[Sathoris]

I voted Don because scum are more likely to not put thought in who they'd like to protect.

If you'd said that the first time I'd be okay with it, but still. Why don over iceguy? Both seem to randomly chose someone to protect.

And keeping your RVS vote on someone doesn't automaticly make it a real vote if the person in question made no case or had any interaction with that guy.

Where do you see me presuming don is town? That sentence had the emphasis on your reasoning for a vote instead of Don's innocence in receiving a vote.

[Sathoris]

I am not intentionally misrepping. I very much hate people doing that and if you feel I'm misrepping you it's a mistake. But that being said I don't think I misrepped anything.

I asked, if those who chose to RANDOMLY protect were at all worried about being quacks and why they picked who they picked- 2 separate questions, why is that hard for you? I didn't change my mind after talking to you, I made an addition... NO flip-flop.

Your original question was this:

Question to all who randomly chose who to protect: Sathoris, IceGuy,DonJosh, were you at all worried about possibly being a "quack"?

Your only question was whether we were worried about being a quack. I see no mentioned of why we picked randomly. Not untill post #37 did you first bring up why we chose who we chose. This was already after you changed the question to people who picked with a reason but didn't yet give a reason in post [http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3160633]#34[/url] and after post [http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3160803]#37[/url] in which you change and say it wasn't directed at people who chose with a reason. So yes it was an addition, but after you flip flopped.

You still have yet to answer if you were at all worried about being a quack when choosing....As far as protection claims go- your "read" is null. If I had gotten to the thread first then I would have been the first person to say that I protected jilynne1991 and someone else would be second "scum". It is in no way a tell of my alignment because I protected the same person as someone else and the fact that you are grasping is a tad bit unsettling.

I didn't answer because I thought the question to be useless, of course I was worried about being a quack. I should still protect because that's the only way to find out.

But you didn't gotten to the thread first, so that's all pointless. And that 2nd person wouldn' be called scum by me unless he posted exactly like you did. The protection target alone doesn't make me put my vote on you. It's just something that I found that scum would do.

You could ask for clarification but attacking my protection choice? It's definitely not a "safe" choice to pick someone who's already been picked- it draws attention to yourself,and town may sacrifice you because you are still a possible quack. However thinking purely numbers wise it is stupid to relate my protection with scumtell because chances are...this happened with someone too because

only 2 people died out of a possible 4

meaning that either someone didn't use their protection and they are a quack or they used it as a quack but protected someone that a non-quack protected also...That being said the only thing I got from your issues with me was the fact that I wasn't clear and I realize how unnerving that can be and right now I honestly think your intentions are good. .

Town won't sacrifice you for being a quack. A quack is like a cop in this setup. I would claim to protect someone who's already been protected if I were scum for some detailled reasons that I won't all type here. I'm not saying your confirmed scum and the protection target is far from damning. I just noted it and posted it.

However I think this discussion should be dropped for now so it won't dominate discussion untill we have all the protect targets. And my suspicion eased off a bit.

[Sathoris]

EBWOP: disregard to overlapping 'glowball quote'. It's actually my text in there.

[Sathoris]

I targeted a specific slot yes, but the person occupying that slot was random. If you were above me I would've targeted you.

Pops is right, I should've targeted the person below me but I went for the player above me.

[Sathoris]

Yeah, so he's not as big a contributor as some of us. But if you're going to have a go at people for that, take a look at Uncle Pain. Or forest_air. Or popsofctown. Or jilynne. All of them have been less use than Don. So misrep or no misrep, you are again doing this horribly wrong.

Posting fluff > Posting nothing in the scumminess stakes.

Even if it wasn't its own post the randomness and irrelevance would still be scummy. Give me a town motive for posting it.

I posted it to see if you would nitpick about it and avoid my real points,

Anybody buying this? Anybody?

(Seriously the trap excuse, seriously?)

That is really bad indeed.

UNVOTE: Glowball
VOTE: DonJosh

[Sathoris]

One of your questions has already been answered before you asked it. And the other I explained.

Sathoris:
- Why this post? You didn't choose your target randomly.
- Why did you defend DonJosh against Empking's attacks?

I targeted a specific slot yes, but the person occupying that slot was random. If you were above me I would've targeted you..

That sentence had the emphasis on your reasoning for a vote instead of Don's innocence in receiving a vote.

Find better reasons to vote for me because your vote is only based on "gut feeling"

[Sathoris]

DonJ:

If it really was a trap why didn't you say so in your first post responding to Empking's quote of said 'trap'?

In post #78 you accuse Empking of ignoring your other posts and later in post #90 you proclaim it was a trap in which you would see if Empking avoided your other posts. Why not mention your 'trap' in your first post because Emking aparently did precisely as you'd hoped. Surely it would have been a better time to inform us about your trap then?

[Sathoris]

You're not answering my question DonJ. I ask again, why didn't you said it was a trap in your first post? Cause I think you just made that up.

[Sathoris]

Not buying it. If it really was a trap then why the need to point it out later?

[Sathoris]

Your 'trap' was really weak. Empking saying fluff was weak aswell, but you claiming it as some kind of trap is just awful. Your suspicion of me is laughable aswell? Just cause I'm voting for you?

DonJ needs to go.

[Sathoris]

Please tell me when I stated I found you suspicious.

Oh woops, that was Iceguy with the lame vote, sorry. Changes little though.

[Sathoris]

Changes more than little. Now your only reason for suspicion is because of my trap claim?

Random protect and the trap claim are more scummy than anyone else here has done. Jyl's coming in a good 2nd but that trap thing really pushed me over the edge.

[Sathoris]

It may seem like glowball's post looks very well thought of but it's mostly Uncle_Pain's post rehashed. Nice way to appear as if you're contributing with good ideas.

---
I've been running through a lot of simulations in notepad, I may post em if I get a chance to refine 'em but it comes down to a few things. I think scum is in Jyl, Iceguy, DonJ and Glowball. Empking + DonJ being scum isn't likely with Empkings attack on DonJ so quickly. DonJ being scum and Empking town would mean a scumteam of DonJ, Jyl and one of Iceguy/glowball. Other scenario's has Izak in there and even less with Empking. I have a town read on Uncle and Pops.

Forest needs to protect Jyl to test her alignement.
If DonJ flips quack we confirm Empking as a doc, anything else and it's still uncertain.
We need to protect most people closest to townie status and not protect Iceguy/glowball to force a kill somewhere on the suspects. I know I can't tell people who to protect but I think we do need to decide on who everyone should protect overnight.

^^I came to that conclusion a while back. The two people who single protected eachother, sathoris and whoever it was, should protect forest_air together, giving him a strong chance of survival.

One protect should be enough don't it? Didn't read anything of chance of protection failing.

[Sathoris]

Fair enough. I know I'm town and I'll protect Forest so he'll live anyway.

[Sathoris]

Nobody else protected Izak so I can't be a quack. The other two quacks are in the paired groups.

[Sathoris]

I mean, it's possible that we are both quacks or I'm quack and he's scum, if Muffin and LittleGrey protected each of us, right?

Oh yeah that's possible too. Forgot what I said. Too much speculation isn't helping us right now actually. We just need a lynch and see how the Jyl protect works out.

[Sathoris]

Because Jyli's been acting like scum. Forest protecting either you or Iceguy works too.

And If I "jumped up to protect forest without thinking that he has a possibility of dying" is only more of tell of a doc then scum, cause scum would know his protect doesn't do anything. Nice try.

[Sathoris]

Jylinne's isn't actually contributing, just rehashing what's already been said. just what Glowball did.

---

1. IceGuy - Likely scum
2. jilynne1991 - Likely scum
4. glowball - Likely scum
5. DonJosh - unsure, will have to see how the lynches flip to determine where scum's left.
6. izakthegoomba - unsure, will have to see how the lynches flip to determine where scum's left.
7. Sathoris - doctor
8. Uncle Pain - doctor/quack
9. PopsofCtown doctor/quack
10. Empking - doctor/quack depending on DonJ's flip.
11. forest_air - Quack.

If DonJ flips scum, Empking is a doctor and the two remaining quacks are in Iceguy/Glowball and Uncle_Pain/Pops. Which means the other two scum must be Jylinne and Izak.

If DonJ flips quack then Empking is a doctor and seeing as I have a townread on Uncle and Pops the remaining scum must be Jylinne/Iceguy/Glowball or Jylinne and a combination of Izak and glowball or iceguy.

If DonJ flips doctor it's a little bit more complicated. Empking could be a quack or he could be scum. I don't think he could be a doctor because that would mean both Uncle/Pops and Iceguy/Glowball consist of a quack and a doctor. And the remaining three scum must me Jylinne/Izak/Sathoris. I know I'm not scum so that doesn't work.

I have a town read on Empking so that means he's a quack and remaining scum are the same as if DonJ flips quack. But with less certainty.

DonJ's lynch tells us the most. We shouldn't lynch Jylinne because won't sort out the quack identity problem that way. We could lynch one of Iceguy and glowball and apply mostly the same logic as above but that always leaves doubt over DonJ's alignement. It's too early to determine pro's and cons right, might do it later.

---

Of course this goes of the assumption that Muffin and Little grey both didn't protect me or Izak.

[Sathoris]

Then you and Empking could both be quacks or Empking could be mafia, but it doesn't change my town read on Uncle and Pops which still leaves the before mentioned people as probable scum in that scenario. Only add Empking as a possibility in there.

[Sathoris]

@Mod: Can we get a replacement for Forest_Air? He hasn't made a single post yet.

Well nobody but Forest should protect Jylinne.
If DonJ flips quack then Empking can also protect Forest along with Sath and Izak (There's atleast one confirmed doc in there because we all can't be quacks.)
If DonJ flips scum then Empking can protect Forest without fear of being a quack. (Sath and Izak will also protect Forest in case Empking is scum. (Odds on me and izak being a quack and Empking being scum in one scenario are very low)
Uncle and Pops should both protect Empking (or someone,

as long as they both protect the same person

) because we don't know if or who's the quack in there.
I don't think Iceguy/Glowball have working protects but they should also both protect the same person for the same reason as Uncle and Pops.
Jyl can protect anyone she wants as she can't self protect anyway to screw up the quack 'investigation'.

This should ensure no accidental quack deaths and if it does we can learn a great deal from it and Forest's 'investigation' went through anyway.

Thoughts?

[Sathoris]

Only scenario where Forest dies are these:

DonJ flips quack and Empking is a quack. (Muffin or Little Grey protected Pops)
Izak is scum and I'm a quack. (Muffin or Little Grey protected me)
*Forest dies and we have two new quacks and a confirmed scum. (I know I'm town, but just looking at this scenario it's also possible I'm the scum and Izak got protected. Just to cover all bases.)

DonJ flips scum and Empking is scum.
Sath and Izak are quacks and empking is scum. (Muffin and Little Grey protected me and Izak.)
*Forest dies and we have two new quacks and a confirmed scum.

DonJ flips scum and Empking is scum.
Sath is a quack and Izak and empking are scum. (Muffin or Little Grey protected Izak.)
*Forest dies and we have a new quack and two confirmed scum.

DonJ flips scum and Empking is a quack. (Muffin or Little Grey protected Pops)
Izak is scum and Sath is a quack. (Muffin or Little Gret protected Sathoris) (Again, could be reversed, but typing this from my town viewpoint)
*Forest dies and we have two new quacks and a confirmed scum.

Either way a Forest death tells us quite a bit and Forest surviving forces a kill somewhere else and means we hold on to a quack.

[Sathoris]

Why don't we just have Sathoris and izak protect forest air? Forest air can't die unless both sathoris and izak are a combination of quackery and scumbaggery. That's a treasure trove of information, I don't see a need to consume a third night action.

Because if Forest dies there are too many variables. One of us could be a quack, both of us could. One of us could be scum or both of us could be scum. Forest could live with both of us being scum if mafia didn't opt to kill Forest.

I'm not sure the quack should kill people. The quack isn't a weak cop, the quack is a weak vig. Vigs are a role that kill slightly better than random lynching because they know that they themselves are not scum. Vigs are pretty much a double lynch.

Quacks know they are not scum. Quacks's kill will reveal alignement and role..

This vig fails if he hits scum. Stop looking at the newfound knowledge as a "plus", a successful vig would be able to tell you the alignment of the target by examining the corpse.

This vig hits the jackpot if he hits scum. None of the other doctors will target the 'vig's' target. No kill means confirmed scum. We don't need to examine the corpse to know the target is scum. We don't have a PR that kills scum so it's pointless to compare the quack to it. This is what we've got and we should use it.

Since the vig fails if he hits scum, that means that every time our vig's double-lynch function fails, we have to consume one of our actual lynches to finish his work.

The quack isn't a double lynch. In fact your analogy with a vig is completely off. The Quack is a weak cop that helps us find scum, we have to kill it.

Every time our flawed vig hits scum, he fails to actually accomplish anything. He hits the same person we were going to lynch.

You're saying confirmed scum accomplishes nothing? You'd rather lynch someone without a scum confirmation than someone with one?

The scenarios are:
Town, Town, +2 lynches.
Town, Scum, in some order, +1 lynches
Scum, Scum, he didn't actually really do anything.

We have a pretty strong chance of preventing scum nightkills, which would let us control most of the deaths in the town anyway, with no need for a crap-mode vig. And that chance of preventing scum nightkills is improved if we don't mark a certain player as off-limits to protects for the night because the quack is going to kill that player. I think we should have unplanned night actions, a non-acting quack, and try to accumulate more charts.

Except that none of us are confirmed docs. We can't systematicly protect as many people as we can to reduce the scum's NK because we could very well add to the number of NK's. And by not marking players off limit you effectivly destroy our hopes of finding scum overnight.

I'm sorry but your logic just doesn't make any sense. A vig isn't going to wait to kill someone untill someone during the day confirms someone as scum. The vig hits scummy people to hope and hit scum. A quack is bascily the cop variant that confirms someone as scum or town on which we then act to lynch the next day. Not gathering any information means we play this game by ignoring the setup completely.

[Sathoris]

as for how many people protect forest_air, this is why it should be two. Forest only dies if neither goomba nor sathoris are doctors. There is only two ways that can happen, one or both of them are scum, or both of them are quacks. But the chances of both of them being quacks is miniscule. The two dead doctors would have had to have protected each of them from the other's quackery. The probability of this, given no other information about how those two made their decision, is 1/121. So we can stomach a small chance of blowing the game on the spot and just assume one or both are scum. So forest's death would directly lead to a scum lynch in one or two tries. We'd get redhanded scum or a living forest, one of the two.

You got a point. We could be willing to risk Empking targeting someone else. (check*)

Thing is, scum won't target Forest because of our protects. It's likely one of the groups being paired are scum/scum and if not Izak has to be scum with one of the paired. So scum won't kill anyone paired to not give themselves away. Jyline's is already being targeted by a quack so if she's town they won't kill her. So their kill is either me or Izak. Depending on DonJ's flip Empking as doc could protect me or Izak. Whichever he has a stronger town read on and force the kill on the other one.

Might as well use the other protects for other purposes. If anything, the other protects would only minimize the possible info.

*You talk about other protects, but the only other protect is Empking which is still uncertain pending DonJ's lynch. There's likely a quack between you and Uncle. With all your protests of quacks it's kind of hypocritical to ask for more different protect targets.

*tricky to factor in whether Muffin and Little Grey protected either me or Izak.

Soo. By going of your input we could have:

Forest protects Jylinne
Sathoris and Izak protect Forest
Empking (only if DonJ flips quack or scum) protects Sath or Izak.
Uncle and Pops both protect Empking
Glowball and Iceguy both protect someone or both protect no one.

The kill will be forced on either me or Izak. If either one of the four paired people die it's safe to say the other are paired scum, right?

[Sathoris]

That post you quoted is your answer. Don't like it? Don't care.. And FYI I never dodged a question you asked. I'm giving my view on the setup we have and if people pointed out mistakes, which they did. I adjust and post a reviewed version. I include scenario's that include me as scum simply because doing not so would only draw attention as to why I chose to ignore all scenario's that have me as scum.

And I don't tunnel nor am I stuck in a bias (towards what?) I've constantly slightly changed my posts to account for everyone's input. And the fact is . Uncle_Pain and Pops have acted in a way that helps the town a lot more than you or Iceguy. Accordingly, my read is based on that. Whenever someone changes I take that into account.

You're more likely to be tunneling on me..

[Sathoris]

Those reads are all over the game. Just read me in iso to find those out. Don't be lazy.

[Sathoris]

To All:

How would you feel about forest_air protecting either Sathoris or Izakthegoomba?

Oh now you're just trying to save your buddy Jylinne. If you'd just suggest me it could still come from a townie tunneling on me, but adding Izak? Jylinne has contributed nothing. Made several references to not knowing the town PM. And in the unlikely case she's a townie. Isn't any loss to the town. Yet she gets a free pass now, why?

Besides you scramble my words. I said my reads are all over this thread. Which they are. I started by suspecting you, it eased off a bit once DonJ made his 'trap' post. I've had faith in Pops and Uncle through the thread. Empking is still a bit up in the air but DonJ's lynch should be revealing. I've had my thoughts on a Jyl/Iceguy/Glowball scumteam through the game. With only Izak as interchangable depending on flips.

Now my logic, has changed throughout the game. I'm a guy who likes to make up scenario's. Fair enough the ones I've posted so far where relativly quick drafts because any night action can change things so I'm not putting all my effort into trying to determine every outcome as the variables can change too much. Right now though I'm just fine tuning it with every page this thread comes up with.

Now I don't deflect either. I have answered your questions with an answer that mattered the most. I don't think Forest should protect anyone else simply because Jylinne is the best suspect to try it on.

I'm fairly sure it's a Jylinne, Glowball and Iceguy or Izak scumteam.

[Sathoris]

I've already given my reasons why jylinne should

not

be the lynch of the day. I've got nothing more to say because you're bringing up nothing new. Come back with a post containing proper argument structure.

[Sathoris]

I don't have time to get waist deep in the optimal night action analysis, but it has occured to me that assigning any townie to protect a particular person, alone, make that person unkillable. Not unkillable, but uninfluencable. If the physician is a doctor, nothing the scum can do can kill that person, if that acting player is a quack, nothing the scum can do can save that player. We could funnel the scum into shooting certain people we want them to shoot that way.

What do you think of this plan to funnel the NK?

[Sathoris]

That's about all the protects you can have while making the NK tell us more than the death helps mafia. How would you set it up then?

[Sathoris]

Let's not get to a lynch before we agree on everything. I haven't seen a VC in ages so I'll UNVOTE: DonJosh for now so we won't accidentaly go into night phase unprepared.

[Sathoris]

Mostly the same as what I drafted up. Although I went with the assumption of scum not protecting because they're scum. Which is a bit rash since no one's confirmed scum. And Empking's reassigned to take risk of both me and Izak being a quack.

[Sathoris]

Why do you consider me scummy? And why do you want to lynch somebody other than "likely scum"?

My vote is on DonJosh because I consider him the scummiest player, although you seem to be trying to overtake him.

Process of elimination puts you in the likely scum category. I want to lynch DonJ because his lynch will either give us a scum (his death) a likely quack or a doctor. Plus he's a liability for his scummy play. Rather deal with it now then to face this question later in lylo.

If DonJ flips quack or scum, Empking is a doctor or scum. Or a quack, but then Emp is scum.

If DonJ flips scum do you belive Empking-scum would buss his buddy so hard on D1?

Bad idea. One of us is likely to be a quack, and we want to know who. Okay with the rest.

How would you go about doing that? Protecting a likely town by killing him? No thank you. Lynching DonJ could give us another quack and frankly two is enough without sacrificing town to get your sanity.

[Sathoris]

See the thing about the plan is-- it's basically hinging on the hope that your reads are correct. I mean there are only 3 players not being protected and so you are allowing scum to kill them because you they are worth the sacrifice- if one of the less assumed players in scum your plan doesn't do much except for allow them to pick us off and fly under the radar.

2 out of those 3 are pretty much confirmed scum. Getting desperate cause your NK target is being chosen by us?

[Sathoris]

I know they aren't confirmed scum. Give me a break. It's just that we've basicly agreed on a lynch and are now just making plans for the flip and protects. Scumhunting is due to resume tomorrow. Besides, you seem to be getting anxious that you're being forced into the NK path. Town shouldn't.

And I'm getting tired waiting for your 'proposition' glowball..

Just cause I haven't presented a formal case doesn't mean I didn't post my suspicions about glowball. I still believe his question was horrible and the resulting flip flopping just as much. Iceguy just gets implicated as a buddy for peripheral reasons. One that can change at any time pending any night actions. As you see I'm not lynching any of you two because DonJ's lynch tells us more to go on tomorrow.

As far as I can tell we've already got one confirmed scum in Jylinne. Any town role would've spoken up but she's apparently given up. Tomorrow could really narrow down the other two.

[Sathoris]

No I've already given my view on who I think are scum. DonJ didn't feature spectacularly in there. Nonetheless his lynch is the best. We've been over this before. Why the sudden attempt to discredit me?

[Sathoris]

Uncle's #247 feels a bit like comfortable scum. All called scumteams have hereby been redacted untill D2 starts. I say we lynch the Don (pun intented) and follow the instructions and move on to day 2. We need more scumhunting and that can only really start again in day two.

VOTE: DonJosh

[Sathoris]

Updated reads:

Sathoris: Leaning scum, although I wouldn't read too much into the "scumslip".
DonJosh: Leaning scum, still top suspect.
glowball: Leaning town.
Uncle Pain: Town.
Apokalyptika: Neutral.
PopsofCtown: Leaning town.
jilynne1991: Leaning town due to meta (sorry, I can't be more specific because of the "ongoing games" rule).
Empking: Leaning town.
izakthegoomba: Neutral.

Aaand this post reinforces me with a iceguy/glowball/jylinne scum setup.

Jylinne leaning town. Give me a break! That's scum suicide you just commited there. And leaning scum on me and leaning town on Glowball.

I'm voting for one of those two no matter what come day two!

[Sathoris]

I've said you were scum for several pages. How on earth is this omgus?

Next thing your claiming that post was a 'trap' to get me to post something like that..

[Sathoris]

We're wasting time here. I've got nothing new to add. DonJ has nothing to add that will change anything. Hammer the poor guy please.

[Sathoris]

You can keep calling it anxiousness but that doesn't make it so. Shit I even unvoted to make sure we didn't lynch before night actions were in order. They are now, we know what to do. What are we waiting for?

[Sathoris]

glowball, if you have a plan that will give us more information than pops' one, I'm more than willing to hear it.

I don't have one as well though out, I've already said. I am not good with numbers- plus I'd rather not waste my breathe on people who've decided DonJosh is the best lynch. I mean if we are going to lynch I'd rather lynch jily and have forest protect DonJosh at least then we don't waste tomorrow lynching jily since she's obvscum(I did a re-read)

Sigh.. you needed a re-read to call jylinne obvscum? Waiting to hammer to hear DonJ's final thoughts on players I can understand, but all you're waiting on is for someone to change his mind and switch to jylinne. Lynching your partner now would be better for scum as we'd be no closer to figuring out the quacks. We got one scum, this lynch will tell us more about her partners.

You know it's these little things, you never gave a valid reason why you don't want to hammer. You implied that with the proper response from DonJ you won't even lynch. He can't give us any new information except his reads. Which you haven't mentioned once that you wanted to hear. You're stalling to postpone this lynch for reasons that benefit scum more than town.

[Sathoris]

Thoughts are meaningless. DonJ had as much reason to think he was a quack as Empking would have. Assuming they're both doctor's, of course.

[Sathoris]

Apok - Quack
Sath - Doc
Iceguy - Doc

Glowball - doc/quack
Pops - doc/quack

Uncle_Pain - scum/doc
Goomba - scum/doc

Jyl - scum

There are three quacks in this game which means there's only one unknown left. It has to be either Glowball or Pops as no one else was double protected where we don't already know the alignement of one of the protectors.
Couples with Iceguy countering Empking's quack on me and me not killing Pops means we have 5 out of 8 pegged as town. We know jyl is scum and she will be lynched today. That leaves only two as possible scum.

Before we lynch Jyl we need a new plan.

[Sathoris]

Forgot that quacks don't hurt scum. Regardless Ice is confirmed as doc as I didn't die from Empking's quack protect.

Goomba as quack means I was protected by Muffin or Grey on N1 and Uncle would have to be scum. Not believing those circumstances to be true. If the quack is between Glowball and Pops then the other is a doc as Apok isn't scum. Uncle can be a quack if Goomba is scum.

Uncle is the last quack, Pops is a doc.

Goomba, glowball and Jylinne as scumteam. Nothing has changed to make me divert from my original stance on things.

Not time to make up plan now. Will post my plan later.

[Sathoris]

Way to buss.

[Sathoris]

Mafia had a choice between quack and the doc. Empking was confirmed quack with the mafia's knowledge.

Doesn't make scum conf scum for not taking the NK, but adds a certain amount of suspicion yes.

[Sathoris]

Sath: Doc
Iceguy: Doc
Pops: Doc
Uncle: Quack
Apok: Quack

Jyl: Scum
Izak: Scum
Glow: Scum

100%

[Sathoris]

Your plan, Uncle, has either me, Pops or Uncle dying from the mafia NK and Apok from your quack ability. Which with Jyl's lynch today will put us on 3v2. We can't mislynch

If I die then that's okay because Izak and Pops must be scum.

If Uncle dies then Izak is lynched and we go into the night 3v1 with Icecuy as confirmed doc and no more quacks. Everyone must protect Iceguy and Iceguy protects his town read. I'm 99% sure the last scum is glowball, but there's an outside chance Pops as unconfirmed doc could still be the scum. It's in Iceguy's hands to make the call. Although if he doesn't lynch me and protects me and I protect him scum can't win and whoever's left with us is scum.

Now if Pops dies you only conclude that Glowball is a non-doctor and me a non-quack. Which also guarentees Glowball as scum. (Assuming Apok dies from Uncle's quack protect, with all the quacks dead or known Glowball can only be a scum as 'non-doctor') Last scum is Izak.

Which makes me near certain Uncle will get killed.

But, if we change Iceguy's protect to Uncle. We limit the kills to me: scum outed. Pops: scum outed. And glowball.

If Glowball dies then Izak is confirmed scum and pops must be the last scum. Of course you can say I could be the last scum, but I protected Apok and if I was scum it would be better to let Apok die and go with the assumption that I was a quack and cause all kinds of problems to the plan.

In short, I'm in favor of Uncle's plan and suggest we let Iceguy protect Uncle instead of glowball.

[Sathoris]

Well my PoV sort of coincides with Uncle's so that's two for.

And more neutral is also more likely to leave certain aspects unanswered. We're better off with people knowing more than others who are likely to be town.

[Sathoris]

That's not a very good plan. Looking at this from a neutral.

Pops dies -> Uncle or Glowball is quack/scum. No closer to finding the last quack or any scum.
The only quack we have is protecting someone who's also protected by another doc? Way to waste the asset that is the known quack.

Kill can be funnelled too: Sathoris or Izak. Izak won't die because he's scum so I'll die and what does that tell you? I'll flip doc but it doesn't implicate anyone. Pops will die but that doesn't tell us which of Uncle or Glowball is the quack/scum.

[Sathoris]

Jil, there can be no mod second guessing. We know the setup, we know Apok is a quack, we know you lived. You gave up on D1. Besises being caught scum by setup you're caught scum by gameplay. Izak's making the same mistake right now.

And if you do flip town, some town doc screwed up his protect or a town on D1 has been lying about his protect. In which case I give up.

Glowball could protect izak then. Neither sathoris nor izak seem super townie to me.
Uncle pain's dethy analyses have a genuine enthusiasm too them, Sathoris' thinner contributions seem more possibly contrived.

Sathoris your post started with "from a neutral perspective" and ended with "since we know im town and know goomba is scum". Nothing neutral about that. Aside from altering the protect on me to be a single line, you'll need a more substantial reason to veto the plan.

Okay, from a neutral's PoV as you intented your plan for gives even less info then. Glowball protecting Izak doesn't chang jackshit about the mafia kill. All it solves is the Uncle quack issue. Which Uncle's plan has in every outcome. Your plan is flawed and it's making me doubt your alignement. And what makes you think your plan needs to be veto'd or else it'll be the plan? Uncle's plan is better. Simple as that. A townie would't need to convince others to a more crappy plan with less info.

[Sathoris]

Let's stop with all these plans for a second. I want to hear scumteams from people.

I'm 100% sure it's Izak, Jilynne and Glowball.

[Sathoris]

Simple. When we were still slightly sumhunting I said Jilynne and Glowball+Iceguy are likely the mafia. Or Glowball/Iceguy with Izak. Since then Iceguy has been confirmed doc from my PoV so that leaves you with Glowball. Uncle is going to be confirmed Quack when he kills Apok tonight. Pops is still uncertain, but I've had a town read on him from the beginning. Though his new plan has me rethinking that. Either way Uncle's plan can shed light on that.

And why the sudden suprise? I've been saying this from D1.

I would vote for you if this setup wasn't so analysis-orientated.

You'd rather vote for me than confscum? slipslip

[Sathoris]

Yes he is. Empking flipped Quack and he and Iceguy protected me. I know I'm a doctor so that makes Iceguy a doctor.

[Sathoris]

Let's stop with all these plans

for a second

. I want to hear scumteams from people.

I'm 100% sure it's Izak, Jilynne and Glowball.

Not saying we should stop fashioning a plan. I just want people to list their suspects for the scumteam. And as far as I'm concerned we follow Uncle's plan and we roll up all the scum tomorrow.

[Sathoris]

Yeah.. That's what I said:

. Since then Iceguy has been confirmed doc from my PoV

Doesn't matter what I think of you right now. You protecting Apok will answer that for me.

this gives me all the info and I'm sticking to it.

[Sathoris]

Not doing that. Uncle's plan is best.

[Sathoris]

Err. Wrong.

I'll die from a quack.
Pops will die from a quack
Apok will be NK'ed by scum.

2v2 tomorrow and scum wins.

Worst plan so far.

[Sathoris]

*Assuming Pops dies from Uncle's quack*

Sath dies --> Glowball is scum.
Izak will live from Apok's quack and will be confirmed as the last scum with Glowball.
Izak can't die because with Pops dead and Uncle as confirmed quack it would mean I would be scum with Glowball**
Glowball can't die because with Pops dead and Uncle as confirmed quack it would mean I would be scum with Izak.**
Iceguy is safe.
Apok is safe.
Uncle is safe.
**If that happens you can just lynch me as the remaining scum and town wins either way, but it won't happen.

*Assuming Pops doesn't die from Uncle's doctor*

If Iceguy dies then Pops is either a quack or scum.
If Sathoris dies then Glowball is either a quack or scum.
If Iceguy dies with Sathoris then one of Pops or Glowball is quack and scum.**
If Glowball dies with Sathoris then Izak is scum with Pops.
**Assuming Izak will live from Apok's quack. If he dies then Uncle is scum with either Pops or Glowball and we lose.
**When we lynch Izak we set up another plan to force the kill on either Glowball or Pops and we win the game.
Apok lives.
Uncle lives.

---

But pops will die and we will win tomorrow. So I'm in favor of that plan.

[Sathoris]

Stop diluting and infecting Uncle's plans!!!

[Sathoris]

Everytime a good plan is posted people start changing things and they turn out crappier.

I mean look at this:

glowball → izakthegoomba
izakthegoomba → glowball

Scum protecting scum,

Apokalyptika → Sathoris
Uncle Pain → popsofctown

Two quacks killing town. Scum won't NK because two kills is already enough. No fucking info about anyone else but people dying.

Shiiiiiit

[Sathoris]

I imagine that your supposed certainty is a scum tactic to try to persuade us that your PoV is that of a doc.

Lol, 200% conf scum.

Think about it.

[Sathoris]

No... I would be probscum from

your

PoV, if you were a doctor. However, since I am not scum, you are confscum from

my

PoV. There's no point arguing about it; we both know that you are scum, you will do everything you can to frame me, but your quacking will reveal the truth.

Cracking under the pressure much? I haven't done anything to frame you.

I don't care that much about being quacked, as long as we're not quacking two townies so we lose the game.

Uncle --> Sath
Apok --> Izak
Iceguy --> Apok
Sath --> Iceguy
Pops --> Uncle
Izak --> Glowball
Glowball --> Pops

Everyone is protected.

Sathoris dies, Uncle is a quack
Izak lives, Izak is scum
Iceguy and Uncle are protected by docs and won't die under any circumstance.
If Uncle dies than Pops is a quack or scum, depending on whether I die.
If I live and Uncle lives then either me or Uncle is scum. A (lack of) scumkill would give us the last scum.
If Pops dies then Glowball is scum.
If Iceguy dies then I'm scum.
If Glowball dies then Izak is scum, which also means I will die and Uncle will live. Pops is the last scum.

Everybody wins, no?

[Sathoris]

That post is just plain stupid, Izak.

Uh... how?

By spewing nonsense that doesn't make any sense and creating the illusion that I'm framing you into something(?)

What, apart from calling me ConfScum?

Calling you confscum isn't framing. Your latest paragraph is the definition of framing.

You're actually suggesting that we quack you?

I have myself being quacked in my own plan, so yeah I think that's what I meant..

Looking further at that plan, you have me quacked by Apok, and yourself potentially quacked by Uncle. You know we will quack you tonight, and are trying to get me quacked as well, because you being ConfScum would make me ConfDoc.

Erm, most people agree with Uncle's plan which doesn't have my quacked. I suggest a plan which does have me quacked. You are getting quacked in any plan.

it won't happen because I won't protect Sathoris...

Afraid if I die you get outed? And what happened to this?

No...it's fine. I mean if everyone agrees I'll do what I am told

Suddenly you realise that using that plan will out all scum so you're backing off.

[Sathoris]

Haha that's not framing.

But what is your objection to Uncle's plan? Every scenario I laid out for it has scum revealed. Even if you're town. So why are you against it?

[Sathoris]

Glowball isn't a quack. How often have I mentioned that if I die from Glowball's protect she's scum. If she's a doctor she would've mentioned the possibility of me dieing because she's a quack. The fact that she didn't means she never thought of the possibility.

[Sathoris]

3 days left so better agree with it now.

[Sathoris]

Wiggle all you want Glowball but you're still scum.

VOTE: Jylinne

[Sathoris]

Scum: Izak, glowball, jilynne

No suprise there

Sorry the game had to end due to mod error. Enjoyed the setup and game nonetheless!

[Sathoris]

Pretty sure that's when Empking died so he mustve been a mafia target.

[Sathoris]

If this game is restarting I wont be avaliable until after the 18th of August.