Mini 1195: The Beehive Mystery (GAME OVER)

[Captain Spoon]

ever heard the saying '2 heads are better than one?'

thought not

[SleepyKrew]

That doesn't answer the question.

[Captain Spoon]

it explains why it's just been me so far

and it's also a warning that reads may be subject to change should my parter disagree with my reads

[SleepyKrew]

I read it more as "I'm being pressured where's CC to save my ass?"

[Captain Spoon]

I've explained everything and concealed nothing (unlike some *cough*)

I need no saving

[SleepyKrew]

Then what is this secret you will only post after Acro posts?

[Captain Spoon]

well I can't tell you, obv, or else Acro will change his post to appear more town which I will not want if Acro is scum

If i explain what the towntell is I'm looking for, then it would be useless as Acro will just purposefully include it

If I'm keeping something secret, it's for a reason. Trying to get me to spill it does town no favours

Incidentally, was there any reason why you joined this game late?

[SleepyKrew]

I've concealed nothing

Enough is enough.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Spoon
If by late, you mean why wait until page 3? I posted on my first opportunity.

[Captain Spoon]

what are you talking about?

you don't even have a case on me?

[Captain Spoon]

give me some reasons why I'm scummy that I haven't already explained

[archaebob]

unvote vote Acronach

Your posts so far have been devoid of content.

Not putting a vote out is almost always antitown, especially in early D1.

And if you're the type of self-righteous/thickheaded/airheaded prick who

refuses

to vote without "good evidence" out of some misplaced notion of caution or integrity, you have to make up for the lost content by pressuring people in other ways, such as with questions.

It's really not brain surgery, unless you're scum.

And even then, it's a fairly standard procedure.

Do something.

[Captain Spoon]

so which hydra are you from arachaebob?

[SleepyKrew]

Who are you?

[Captain Spoon]

I'm guessing Ivan

[Captain Spoon]

VOTE: SK
reasons

1) comes up with this "oh, I didn't suspect Acro because... uh.. He's A VI?" theory to save himself from a contradiction
2) sheepy sheeps onto my wagon
3) Sleepykrew tried to loudly justifiy his lack of voting and continued doing it for a long time, until he could safely sheep onto a wagon. Town players told they are playing poorly (and not voting is exceedingly poor town play) will quickly re-engage with the game. Good scum will do the same. But bad or simply absent-minded scum are overly concerned with saving face - they'd rather JUSTIFY their inaction instead of RESOLVING it.

[SleepyKrew]

OMGUS
I had lack of voting?

[Captain Spoon]

yeah, until just now, and I've said i don't like your vote 9or lack of rasoning)

like you say, we're out of RVS, so you should be prepared to make a case as I did

[Captain Spoon]

and I don't think you understand omgus, SK

omgus, is OMG, you suck

I am, OMG, you're scum

there's a difference

[SleepyKrew]

In case you didn't notice, I was voting Ivan until you put on your scummy mc flaily pants. Or is that just the avi?

[Ivan the Pleasant]

Bah. Well, there goes that idea.

unvote vote Acronach

Your posts so far have been devoid of content.

Not putting a vote out is almost always antitown, especially in early D1.

And if you're the type of self-righteous/thickheaded/airheaded prick who refuses to vote without "good evidence" out of some misplaced notion of caution or integrity, you have to make up for the lost content by pressuring people in other ways, such as with questions.

It's really not brain surgery, unless you're scum.

And even then, it's a fairly standard procedure.

Do something.

[Tommy]

My timezone is BST (which is GMT+1).

My scumread on YankCane isn't as strong as ICEninja's, though it's there. I wouldn't vote for him yet. Like subgenius, I see post 49 as overly defensive stuff that could come from scum or town. 55 is pretty scummy, though: 'So if I'm Beck's scum-buddy, why not vote for him?' Yuck.

I like to put... conviction into my RVS votes to add that extra bit of pressure.

This sounds like an admission of dishonesty, but I've had to get used to people playing weirdly in the early game, so on its own this doesn't damn you. Claiming RVS still applied by post 24, though, is a bit much. Criticising Ivan for putting… conviction into early posts is rank hypocrisy. Voting Acro for not posting a random vote is just as wrong of you as it was in ConfidAnon, though maybe less suspicious - you're doing a good job of convincing me that you really do hold the (mistaken) belief that everyone should always have their vote on someone.

voting is the town's greatest weapon

Not voting is nearly always anti-town. You should always be applying pressure. How else are you suspposed to make the scum slip?

It's precisely because my vote is the my greatest weapon that I seek to preserve its value. I don't vote for someone unless I want to see them dead. Pressure can be applied through analysis, interrogation, discussion, argument.

ConfidAnon's position on Acronach seems to be subtly shifting (as SleepyKrew has noticed). Compare these two:

Vote: Acronach

Why hold your vote because we're out of the RVS? That would seem like more of a reason to vote to me, since there is at least something substantial (albeit not much) to discuss.

I doubt anyone would suspect you for not voting (again, not what I've ever suspected you for).

Come on ConfidAnon: what was your case on Acronach? Was it holding his vote, or what he said about it? If it was what he said about it, why didn't you say that in the first place?

I like subgenius's point that Acronach has been posting a lot but not providing much content, though I'm also interested in the speed of the resulting wagon.

SleepyKrew, could you summarise your case against Captain Spoon?

[rblinker123]

Beck: to your question about you don't understand what my post was about, I was referring to the suspicion on Yank and how I wasn't into it, it think the suspicion was over-exaggerated, he wasn't alone in his suspicion yet people were jumping on him. Also I was referring to a comment from Ivan about yanks defence on you, and ivan wasn't into it coz it was in rvs, and I felt that Yanks defence was valid and justifiable as although it was in rvs there were serious vote on you, Beck. However, you do think that your first post was more of a joke so atm I'm not leaning to scum for you, Beck.

Also about Captains statement about no-voting is anti-town, I disagree as I don't necessarily agree that not voting is anti-town, you can still help the town by pushing and pressuring other players without votes. Other people have votes on other players and then someone else can develop on that without a vote. Also unnecessary votes can easily start and bandwagon over something little and therefore could go against town.

SleepyKrew: the reason for my unvote on Ivan was simply because the vote was done in rvs and the vote had nothing behind it, we had moved on and vote had no effect so I just thought there was no need for it so I took it off.

Also, I'll be more involved from now on, I've been at work all day so didn't have much time but I tried to reply throughout the day on my phone twice but it wouldn't post for some reason.

[ICEninja]

I'm wondering if you have any particular examples in mind when you say you do these things subconsciously as scum. It's certainly plausible that these are subconscious scum tics, but I'd feel more comfortable accepting your arguments if you could provide some examples.

It's kind of a lot of effort to back up a page 3 vote. Should I continue to use such tells in a vote closer to lynch, I'll go through the effort of linking to posts from my past games.

Sleepy, posting 10 times in a row is a bit irritating. I agree with going for the wall post with spoiler tags. Also, I'd like to point out that your entire premise of scum hunting seems to be "I don't like this, + scum points". A lot of the things you gave someone scum points for didn't really merit the scum points.

the act of ending RVS usually causes you to have developed reads from RVS and thus don't need to make a random vote but can vote a scumread

in other words, RVS isn't when random votes are, but Random votes are in RVS
we only RVS at the start of a game because we have no reads at the start and when there are no developed reads then RVS is the only way to go

I'm a bit confused about this argument between yourself and Sleepy. There really is no black and white line where you can say "post 56 is RVS and post 57 is out of RVS" unless some very significant post caused the change. It is generally a gradual thing that happens over the course of the first 2-5 pages. We happened to be a 2 page game. I can say with confidence that page 3 contains a lot of non-RVS content.

Acro is a VI. Of course he'll do anti-town things.
But I want to see him post before this convo continues.

Whoa whoa whoa. You're already calling someone VI? What justification do you have to believe he is bad town as opposed to bad scum? Right now I read the slot as alignment neutral bad play. How does that give you any indication that he is town?

And Spoon, how does that give you any indication that he is scum?

I definitely find the willingness to write someone off as VI much much more suspicious though.

The fact that it was pretty obvious RVS ended as soon as people reacted to my comment, [/u]he later claims it hadn't ended.[/u]

No, he didn't. He pointed out that someone was refusing to vote on page 2 (which can easily be argued as still being in RVS). I did, however, also get confused by one of his statements to jump to the same conclusion that you did.

scum need pressure to slip

this is basic mafia

While I think pressure is a great way to induce scum slips, I disagree that they need pressure to slip. Scum makes bad votes, bad cases, lousy bus attempts, and get themselves outed in VCA all the time. I don't think town NEEDS to be voting at all times in order to catch scum. That being said, if someone isn't trying to find scum, then they probably aren't playing with a town motivation, which probably means they aren't town.

This sounds like an admission of dishonesty, but I've had to get used to people playing weirdly in the early game, so on its own this doesn't damn you.

I do the exact same thing in virtually every game I play in, town OR scum. I simply dislike screwing around on the first few pages. It is a complete null tell.

I feel like this whole Sleepy vs Spoon thing is town on town. They're both trying to find scum, and both getting really irritated at each other, and translating their irritation in to scum reads. I feel like Spoon was more justified in his vote than Sleepy was, but I'm seeing town motivation behind some of Sleepy's posting as well.

I do not like at all how Yank seems to have disappeared off the radar as soon as pressure on him let up. All you've done lately is complain that Ivan is charging a bandwagon on you, which by the way never got anywhere near lynching, and tried to redirect attention off of you. It just feels like scum play to me.

[Captain Spoon]

I'll give an updated list of reads shortly. I'm discussing them in the hydra QT but in brief, Beck and ICE have become more town to me. I think I found a towntell from beck

I feel like this whole Sleepy vs Spoon thing is town on town. They're both trying to find scum,

sleepy is faux scumhunting

you even said

A lot of the things you gave someone scum points for didn't really merit the scum points.

So yeah. I see no reason to think SK is truly scumhunting. Tunneling and giving no reasons for the player he's voting might count for something...

And Spoon, how does that give you any indication that he is scum?

The VI loophole was very bizzare and very convenient for him to get out of a tight corner

I don't remember or think that Acro is a VI

While I think pressure is a great way to induce scum slips, I disagree that they need pressure to slip. Scum makes bad votes, bad cases, lousy bus attempts, and get themselves outed in VCA all the time.

I see what you're saying here

Scum make bad votes

like sleepykrew

Scum make bad cases

like sleepykrew

etc.

[SleepyKrew]

@Spoon
Why are you ignoring Tommy?

@Tommy
Flails and contradictions.

@ICE
That's why I'm dropping that style. I used it for a whole 5 minutes
Also, I have prior-game experience with Acro, as I've said before. He's terrible under pressure.