Mini 1166: Town Hall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Rhinox]

OK, here are all of emp's posts about me:

Hm. Okay.

Unvote: th3kuzinator. Vote: Rhinox

vote placed with no justification. OK, so placing votes without explaination early in the game can be an acceptable tactic, but emp didn't address me directly for a week after this.

in the meantime...

C-W:
Sorry, not ready to compromise, not while Rhinox is being this slimy. (Most recently: voting for ThA because ThA *agreed* with the case Rhinox was making.)

thats the first misrep. I did not vote ThAd for agreeing with any case I was making. In between my posts, kuz's posting made me not suspect him as strongly, and ThAd looked like he could be opportunistically pushing an easy mislynch, so I unvoted kuz and voted ThAd. Emp's argument basically boils down to that because I voted kuz at one point, that I should be locked into thinking kuz was scum, and that I shouldn't suspect anyone else who votes kuz. That's completely rediculous.

We went back and forth a little bit, and then emp unvoted me for no explained reason. Until later in the day...

C-Worl and Rhinox are proposing that I'm mafia because I voted MK (who they are saying is mafia) instead of voting Archaist (who would have to be town).
How about Occam's razor- the guy pushing a lynch on Archaist despite saying the above is the guilty one?
And with him, Rhinox who meanwhile is arguing that mafia would be doing the exact thing he himself is doing.
Especially after C-Worl declares Rhinox town for voting MK right after declaring I'm obvscum for voting MK.

I made a mistake letting up on Rhinox. It won't happen tomorrow. If there weren't less than 36 hours left and 0 current voters, it wouldn't have happened today. As it is:
Vote: C-Worl

There are 2 misreps here. Firstly, I didn't propost that emp was mafia. I commented on what C-worl said about emp being mafia with MK, and actually at the end of that commentary that implied that I didn't think emp/MK very likely due to emp unvoting after I made MK the leading wagon. The second misrep is emp saying "rhinox is arguing that mafia would be doing the same thing he is doing" - which wasn't the case at all, and I've tried to explain it, but to briefly go through it again:

-cworl says emp/MK are scum
-emp is voting mk
-MK reacts poorly as if Cworl struck a nerve, so I vote MK
-emp unovtes
-I comment that emp's unvote doesn't make sense if he's really scum with MK because if MK would flip scum, emp would look suspicious for unvoting immediately after MK became the leading wagon.
-Emp misreps me by (1) saying I'm arguing that he's scum, and (2) saying that I said scum would be voting MK and I'm voting MK so I'm the one who's scum.

By the way, emp has been accusing me of omgus, but as of this post, emp think cworl and I are attacking him, and he ends up voting cworl (rather than kuz, the guy he was pushing as scum all day while he was voting elsewhere), and spouting out some rhetoric about how he won't let up on me tomorrow. So, he suspects the 2 people he thinks were attacking him (even though I wasn't even attacking him at that point). I don't even think thats OMGUS by the way - emp was clearly trying to argue that me and cworl were scum because in his opinion we were making bad arguments, which by the way is exactly the reason I suspect emp today.

Moving on to day 2:

In his first post of the day, he immediately votes me, and reaffirms a couple of the misreps he already used in D1 (namely, that I only unvoted kuz because he was getting votes, and that I'm scum because I was still voting MK after saying if emp was scum with MK I wouldn't have expected him to unvote after MK became the leading wagon [and I still don't understand how emp is making any sense with that last one, and no matter how many times I had asked for clarification, all he ever did was reiterate that I was scum because my vote was on MK - my vote had nothing to do with me speculating that if emp was scum with MK, removing his vote after MK became the leading wagon would look suspicious if MK ever flipped scum. After MK flipped town, it would have been the end of it, except MK kept insisting that I was being hypicritical scum basically])

This is not a misrep, but its a bad argument:

Whereas with Rhinox, as just pointed out: he hopped onto both the ThAd and the MK counterwagons. He only voted Archaist hours before deadline, only after your catch all but nailed Archaist's coffin.

Given as a reason for why I am scum, but emp was on the Rhinox, and MK, AND cworl counterwagons, and never getting back on the kuz/arch wagon at the end of the day despite calling kuz/arch scum all day from off the wagon.

This is another bad argument:

Rhinox:
You found a 3rd choice: Make it seem like you wanted Archaist to die while actually effecting a no-lynch. Best case C-Worl's attacks against me and MK carry. Worst case Archaist dies anyhow the next day buy there's one less lynch for the town.

this is a bad argument because I as scum don't gain anything from this course of action. Suppose I was scum trying to cause a no-lynch, if the no-lynch fails and arch gets lynched, then I would know I would be suspected for trying to cause a no-lynch when scum was about to be lynched, and if somehow my alleged plan to cause a no-lynch succeeded, then arch would probably be lynched the next day anyways (if not me), and then I would definitely be under high suspicion for causing a no-lynch rather than a scum lynch once arch flipped. 3 better things for me to do if I'm scum: 1) do nothing and hope a no-lynch just happens, 2) vote ThAd and cause a mislynch instead, or 3) just outright bus without the games that don't help me if I'm scum.

This is getting long so I'll just skip to the last misrep, where emp said I'm scum for allegedly expanding my suspect list to include everyone. I think we've said enough about that recently.

Basically, emp hasn't made a single valid point against me, but I'll repeat that its not the bad points that are the problem - sometimes townies make bad points - its that he isn't trying to unbiasly determine whether his points are valid, he's just declaring them to be valid and hasn't had to back them up because everyone else either thinks he's town or I'm scum, so he's been getting a pass. Up until now, I'd have probably been willing to except if emp admitted he had confirmation bias and attempted to legitimately reexamine his reads - aside from emp's bad cases and misreps against me, I've been more suspicious of ThAd.

[EmpTyger]

iama:
I'm not being rhetorical.  I really want to know whether I need to keep repeating myself if every time Rhinox says a new variation of "lalalala didn't happen misrepmisrepmisrep".  Rhinox's play today- and his account of his play- make no sense for a townsperson.  Where do you stand?


Rhinox:
I've already quoted it.  I've even highlit in blue.  Again:

I don't think anyone is clear-cut obvtown

You haven't said how you think that iama isn't clear-cut obvtown.  Despite being asked directly.

On the contrary.  You've denied it happened, in the face of my quoting how it did.  You've claimed you were baiting me.  You've tried some non sequitors about no-lynching.  You've dove headfirst into OMGUS with these "misrep" accusations against me.

But not a word about why you think iama isn't "clear-cut obvtown".
And that's why you're a weasel. 

[EmpTyger]

(Sorry, didn't see the post on the new page.  But that's not something I can fully reply to on iPhone anyhow.  For now, briefly-)  

Rhinox:
Nice try at a last-ditch defense of counterattacking your accuser.

But that doesn't provide an explanation for why you would start out today saying that no one was "clear-cut obvtown".

Or for your play. You've lain low; if you're not being attacked, you've played passively (except where kuz/Archaist was concerned, interestingly).  Unlike every other player in this game (except kuz and Archaist, again interestingly), who all put more energy into narrowing down their list and attacking their suspects.   

[iamausername]

I could spout out a few guesses at specific reasons but that wouldn't really help very much. Its all pretty moot at this point anyways since bringing attention to the ramifications of a hypothetical nk choice after a no lynch pretty much means that we won't get any useful info out of the nk anyways. So I'm with ThAd we might as well just lynch today.

It would help me. I'm not asking to aid me in deciding whether to vote no lynch today, I'm asking to aid me in deciding whether to vote for you today. Because from where I stand, it seems like if you are town, it should be extremely clear that I am the obvious nightkill. Unless you think I'm scum, of course, but apparently you don't, so... I need to see some justification for how you can think anyone else would die if we no lynched.

btw, I don't see myself voting EmpTyger today under any circumstances.

[Rhinox]

@iam: I think you could be scum, but you are 3rd on the list of 3 suspects. I never in the game said I thought you were town / weren't scum. All game, emp has been trying to paint everything into little black and white boxes. I voted kuz, so I'm not allowed to changing my mind if I think the wagon is growing too quickly / opportunistically. I said yesterday I thought the last scum was either emp or ThAd, so that means I must think you're the obv nk? no, my opinion alone doesn't mean shit and wouldn't influence who the scum kills. And just because I still say you might be scum doesn't mean "ZOMG RHINO IS TRYING TO GET ANYONE LYNCHED TODAY SCUMMMMMM!" - no, it means exactly what I said, you're third on the list, you might be scum, but I'm not arguing to get you lynched and there's no way as of right now I can see voting you before emp or ThAd - you'd have to do something pretty scummy, or both emp and ThAd would have to start looking pretty town. Actually, I'd have a hard time even voting ThAd at this point.

You asked for examples, I don't think these very helpful, but here are a couple off the top of my head. The list is literally endless though because scum could kill anyone for any reason or no reason or randomly or whatever.
-scum-thad kills emp to frame me because emp suspected me.
-scum thad kills me to make emp look bad for being wrong about me and to make you look bad for still being alive.
-scum-emp sees you just say you'd under no circumstances votes him so kills me because ThAd is your top choice.
-scum-emp kills thad for the same reason, predicting I'd still be lynched or alternative you're suspected for still being alive
-scum-you (if I'm wrong and your scum) will still be alive tomorrow no matter who you kill.
-scum-thad kills emp just to try to wifom us both into thinking there's no way he would leave both of us alive
etc. etc. etc.

btw, I don't see myself voting EmpTyger today under any circumstances.

Well then the game's pretty much over anyways at this point and I'm wasting my time typing. Given everyones implied voting preference (you will only vote ThAd or me, emp will only vote me, and ThAd is probably voting me with an open mind of hearing me out about voting emp), its clear that today will only end in my lynch or no lynch, and if we no-lynch today, I'm almost certainly going to be lynched tomorrow anyways. I'm not just giving up and throwing in the towel, but there's not a lot I can do when you're telling me you're not going to vote my top suspect under any circumstances.

Why, exactly, are you unwilling to vote emp today, anyways?

[iamausername]

While he's doing that you should summarize everything you've said about emp being scum, including all his alleged misreps.

You must know I also want to lynch you today, but I promise to keep an open mind and read your case.

Have you read his case now? What did you think?

[Beefster]

ThAdmiral has been prodded.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm still here, but have been smashed by work and assignments recently. I'll read up and post.

Sorry about the absence.

[EmpTyger]

[Posting for Beefster's sake.]

[ThAdmiral]

@ rhinox: There is definitely misrepresentation there, fairly bad stuff that looks even worse since emp has chosen not to readdress it, however as you allude to some of emptyger's attacks could be explained by his being overzealous. But I think your best point against him is his hypocritical attack on you for your voting behaviour at the end of day 1 when his was arguably even more suspicious. His response at the time was:

Yes, I messed up by backing off of Archaist in [213]. I concede that this was suspicious and I deserve some scrutiny for it. But *not* for the reason you listed. Certainly not when I spent most of yesterday being accused of pushing the kuz/Archaist bandwagon. Now you're accusing me of being kuz/Archaist's partner for trying to push his mislynch, yet in a way that wouldn't earn me towncred...?

which, while reasonable, doesn't let him off the hook as in a game with only 9 players he may have been trying to avoid wagoning his partner as much as possible while there were other viable targets available (and I said as much at the time).
However as bad as his behavior was, it doesn't mean your behavior

wasn't

suspicious and therefore his attack isn't completely invalidated.

Bottom line: the thing I can't get passed when theorizing about emp as scum is his defense of sab day 2. I can't really see the angle as scum unless he knew sab was going to end up as a mislynch and he could get towncred for it, but a) there was no way he could have known that and b) I don't believe that anyway.

And emp does bring up a good point about you not writing off certain players as town and focusing on the people you thought were scum. While emp has claimed certain players were def-town who he had no interest in lynching a bunch of times you seem to have kept your options more... open.

[Beefster]

Now seeking replacements for iamausername and Rhinox.

They have until a replacement volunteers to post something.

[iamausername]

I would like to not be replaced.

I'll try to put more effort into this game soon, it's somewhat overdue, I guess.

[Beefster]

jilynne1991 has replaced Rhinox. Welcome her!

[EmpTyger]

iama/Rhinox:
Aside from criticizing the mod's judgment, I'm not really sure what to add.

[Rhinox]

Wow this is fucking bullshit by the way.

[jilynne1991]

Sorry, um, if you'd like to stay, go ahead...I'll pretend I never offered/recieved role pm.

[jilynne1991]

OMG...there are 4 players left! Doesn't that put us...at MYLO?

[ThAdmiral]

We should stick with who we have. I realize "rules is rules" and all that but this is just a tad ridiculous.

It's also unfair for jilynne to be caught in the crossfire like this.

[Rhinox]

No the games pretty much fucking over and no ones posting more than once every 2 days but if hitler mod wants to force replace me over a fucking holiday weekend then screw it. Why don't you go count posts all 4 of us are right around the ssame count its not like I was holding up the game.

[ThAdmiral]

Ok no need to get nasty. Beefster is much more likely to be reasonable if you are reasonable.

[jilynne1991]

Um...sorry. I'm perfectly fine, if you want to stay...I don't really care either way.

[ThAdmiral]

No need to apologize, you've done nothing wrong jilynne. We just have to wait for beefster to sort this out.

[Rhinox]

I'll make this easy. I don't want my spot back, lynne can stay. enjoy the rest of the game, this is my last post. I apologize for my language use but not for being pissed about the situation.

[EmpTyger]

I may as well post what's sitting in my outbox, sent before I realized the mod had already carried out the replacement:

I understand your activity policy, but I urge you to not adhere to it so blindly. At this stage of the game players are often waiting on individuals to comment. For example: if I'm waiting for iama to evaluate ThAd's response to Rhinox, then until all 3 people have posted, which could theoretically take 6 days, I myself may not have anything to contribute (other than a null post solely to appease you, which I preemptively did). Moreover, again, it's a holiday weekend.

Before just robotically replacing players, please be actively assessing what affect your actions as mod are going to have on the game. Because replacing 2 players who are not really inactive, at lynch-or-lose a week before deadline- that's not going to cause the game to be more active, or the players to post more actively. On the contrary- it's going to stall the game out further, because those remaining are going to nothing have to say until 2 totally new players get caught up.

Rhinox [if you're still even reading]:
I would have you rejoin the game. It's clearly not personal: the mod tried this same stunt on me over Memorial Day, and on iama the same time as you. I can't imagine iama objecting to your rejoining based on his own near miss, and ThAd and jilynne have both expressed willingness to let you play it out. And if all 5 of us being in agreement isn't enough, I'm sure the listmod would step in to correct this.
(Mind you, I also understand your not wanting to rejoin, given the context within-game plus some very legitimate bitterness. But it'd be good to have you finish the game out, plus it'd be fairer to jilynne who should not have been subjected into this.)


iama/ThAd:
Strictly speaking, we should wait until this gets sorted out before decide how we're going to procede within-game. However, if we were ready to lynch Rhinox, I'm not sure it's fair to drag jilynne into the game. Though if you're not ready, I'm not sure what to do about that even if jilynne does step in. So... how do we want to procede?

[jilynne1991]

Ok, I'm not going to post anything on the subject of this game, until one the following happens:

I hear something out of the mod

or

Rhinox agrees to stay.

If Rhinox can say that he'll stay, you won't here another peep out of me.