Mini Normal 1187: Game Over

[hiplop]

I'm all for a massclaim.

[ace5993]

If bob is town, he knows who visited him last night, and they aren't a doctor. Just look at how adamant Bob was that BA absolutely

had

to be a tracker, followed by continued mentions that the person who targeted him was probably a doctor. I don't buy that. It's rather easy for BA as a mafia goon to fakeclaim tracker and a result this early, because no one is expecting a mass claim on day 2.

Now let's assuming BA is a tracker and isn't lying - we clearly don't have a jailkeeper since we already have a roleblocker, so what is the mystery role? Something less standard for sure, since nothing pops to the front of my mind. Bob is plainly against Barry revealing who this person is. BUT, Bob also supports a massclaim. This is a contradiction. If bob is telling the truth about his setup speculation he believes that the mass-claim will only out the person who visited him, and the second mason, essentially a VT. Everyone else will probably claim VT.

At this point I do believe either nintendo or BA is lying about their claim, however everyone is not considering that scum may have multiple PRs too. Claiming there's a "scum tracker" to balance everything out is near-sighted, there could easily be 2/3 scum with night actions, which also means that town could have another unclaimed PR. Note that mass-claim is a good way to out any remaining PRs if the scum-team is also highly powerful, but BA outing his tracker result wouldn't do that. I don't think it's likely that there are more PRs but I don't think it's completely out of the question.

I am against mass-claim at this point.

All this leads me to believe that bob is scum. The subtle contradictions are incredibly scummy for bob-town but they aren't contradictions for bob-scum. If bob is scum I don't believe BA is scum, scum wouldn't bus that hard D2 imo. Which makes nintendo scum. I'd personally rather a wagon on bob right now than nintendo since we've kind of had one already:

Unvote, Vote: archaebob

[pappums rat]

Vote Count 2.2

nintendoaddict1 - 2 (Heliman, foilist13)
Barry Allen - 2 (archaebob, hiplop)
foilist13 - 1 (nintendoaddict1)
hiplop - 1 (Barry Allen)
archaebob - 1 (ace5993)

Not Voting - LittleGrey, Valern, Scumhunter, Giitah


With 11 alive it takes 6 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is 7 P.M. EST on July 11, 2011.

[archaebob]

@ ace -

Lol. You got me. I'll admit that I don't actually think there's a doctor, but there's a simpler explanation for my stance than the one you are envisioning. Let's not get into this right now, ok? It really isn't going to help anything.

As far as your analysis of the massclaim, I guess it makes sense, I hadn't really thought of it that way. Frankly, I never know what to do about these theory-ish things, which is why I had no clue how to react to the mason claim. My scumhunting is based almost entirely on how people express themselves in their writing. That's my thing. I'll leave the "vote analysis" and the mass claiming and the whatever to you and all the MD people.

I really don't think that both BA and nintendo can be telling the truth though. Sensor, tracker, roleblocker, AND masons is outrageous. I really don't see what scum could have that would balance that.

In any case, this clearly isn't my forte, so I'm going to back off from all this crap right now and make that Heliman case.

[archaebob]

@ ace -

Also, I can't see BA-goon fakeclaiming a result like that on D2 without any prompting. How does that help him exactly? It's an incredibly risky move with no immediate gain.

In any case, if he

is

a fakeclaiming goon, I'm not much interested in his "report" anyways. Hiplop made a good point though about how scum would probably already know who he tracked, so I'm not sure what to think about any of this anymore.

So basically, I'm down with whatever. Still think Barry Allen is scum.

[Giitah]

Can someone explain to me the pros and cons of a mass roleclaim at this point?

[hiplop]

It depends if you're town or Scum, giitah.

[pappums rat]

xvart replaces LittleGrey effective immediately.

[xvart]

Hello everyone. I'll try and get this read through this afternoon and post tonight. I might do it in a couple different sittings. Happy hunting.

[Giitah]

Why thank you hiplop, that was extremely helpful. I'm looking at pros & cons for the town, thank you very much. =__="

Welcome aboard, xvart. ^^

[xvart]

I'm halfway through page nine right now but I see a archaebob/hiphop scum team as a possibility so far. I wish that archaebob wagon would have gone through when it was building momentum.

[Barry Allen]

@ bob - you are saying I'm not using logic, when frankly your arguments related to me have no logic. OF COURSE I realize that nintendo could be fake claiming. But, we've lost one PR and outed my role as tracker - why would I take this chance D2? Your idea that there "is no scenario" where I could be a town tracker is on its face illogical. You can believe whatever you wish. If you wish to judge by writing style, however, let me comment on yours: You are acting like a loose cannon, jumping on whatever you can grab at the moment and moving from zero to warp speed with accusations. Then, you later back away and go after someone else with equal fervor. Then, you come back to someone you suspected before with that same over-zealous energy. At some point this is no longer helpful. At first you can gauge reactions, but after a while it just becomes tiresome noise. I'm not ready to agree with Ace that you are scum, but your posts have moved into an area that is no longer pro-town.

@ everyone else - Bottom line is that I took my vote off nintendo, even though I worry about him, because I don't want to take the risk on another PR claim on D2. We certainly have the opportunity to go after him later on if we don't believe his claim, but I don't think D2 is the right day for it. While it does seem exceptionally role heavy, keep in mind that we didn't trust Pine's claim yesterday and lost our blocker. Right now I'd rather go after someone else for today. In addition, I don't want to out who I tracked, again because I do not believe it wise to out someone who may be a doc. My vote is on hiplop, who has literally hopped back and forth throughout this round, particularly today. I don't trust him, and I do believe he is scum. If a better case is presented I'll listen, but for now my vote stays.

I'm on the road right now, pulled over at a gas station in Virginia while a thunderstorm passes by. The weather is clearing so I'll get back on the road, and hopefully will be able to rejoin the thread sometime later tonight.

[foilist13]

I would not support a mass claim. Any scum who haven't fakeclaimed already will just claim VT, and everyone who has claimed already will just reaffirm their claim. The only thing that will happen is our PR who targeted archaebob will be outed and the remaining mason(s) will be outed. What are you hoping to accomplish with this? The issue is that we have too many claims already. Adding to it will just give mafia more targets than any protection roles could possibly keep up with.

[archaebob]

@ bob - you are saying I'm not using logic, when frankly your arguments related to me have no logic. OF COURSE I realize that nintendo could be fake claiming. But, we've lost one PR and outed my role as tracker - why would I take this chance D2? Your idea that there "is no scenario" where I could be a town tracker is on its face illogical. You can believe whatever you wish. If you wish to judge by writing style, however, let me comment on yours: You are acting like a loose cannon, jumping on whatever you can grab at the moment and moving from zero to warp speed with accusations. Then, you later back away and go after someone else with equal fervor. Then, you come back to someone you suspected before with that same over-zealous energy. At some point this is no longer helpful. At first you can gauge reactions, but after a while it just becomes tiresome noise.

I'm not ready to agree with Ace that you are scum, but your posts have moved into an area that is no longer pro-town.

Nowhere in this did you respond to my arguments, and the italicized is a textbook scum (I use that phrase too much) way of giving your opinion of my play. You are trying to deflect attention on to me, but you're going to make sure to do it

very

gradually, over the course of the next five posts, so that you look like a townie who is changing his mind over time.

There is nothing remotely anti-town about my posts. You are treating it as a given that you are town, and then piling a lot of AtE on top of itself to try and dissuade me. It won't work. I have made a specific argument about why I think you are lying, and frankly, your posts have bothered me for the entire game. The last few pages have been a charade of you hitting me over the head with as much fabricated outrage as you can, because you think it looks like a townish reaction. It doesn't. Give up.

I mean seriously, Hiplop is so town it's not even funny. His play hasn't been very good, but there's no way in hell it's coming from scum, and you know it. You're picking him now for the same reason you picked him yesterday: it's easy, and it's defensible.

You are scum, Barry. You are also panicking, which I can understand. But there is nothing you can do to win this game. Even if you manage to deflect the lynch onto someone else today, you will be dead long before this game reaches lylo. Do you think I'm wrong about that? Think again.

By all means though, please continue pretending to be town. I look forwards to how much fake anger you can pack into your next post while dodging my arguments again.

On the other hand, if you want to switch gears now and take a more conciliatory approach to being full of shit, I would love to hear your opinion of the following players:

Scumhunter
Valern
foilist13
ace
Heliman

Write a full paragraph on each, if you can. If you are truly town, you have no reason not to do this, as your reads will be very useful after you become confirmed.

Your response to this is also your very last chance to persuade me that I'm wrong. Be completely honest, and do NOT try to filter your gut inclinations. Scum has no gut inclinations to filter, which is why your mind is already racing about how to respond to this.

[archaebob]

My vote is on hiplop, who has literally hopped back and forth throughout this round, particularly today. I don't trust him, and I do believe he is scum. If a better case is presented I'll listen, but for now my vote stays.

I mean c'mon people, how do you not see how full of shit this guy is?

"If a better case is presented I'll listen, but for

now

my vote stays."

Only scum feels a need to cover their asses that thoroughly. His hiplop vote is fake, he knows it, and he's building a reinforced, geometrically constructed suit of armor around everything he does to satisfy his own insecurities about it.

[archaebob]

@ Heliman -

Before I post my rebuttal to all your nonsense from yesterday, I have to know: at this moment, do you still think I'm scum?

If not, give me your top three.

[Barry Allen]

@ bob - okay, let's look at your "arguments" that you claim I'm not responding to:

Post 730

– Bob doubts the possibility that nintendo’s claim could be real. Then states flatly that Barry is scum, stating that the set up is unbalanced towards town even without the tracker claim being real. Bob states, “I bet my house that you’re a scum tracker.”

Let me restate what I have already said on this topic: I don’t know if nintendo’s claim is real or not, but I don’t like the idea of lynching a claimed role on D2 after we lynched a real role on D1 and lost another role N1. We do have time to come back to Nintendo if we wish at any time. As for the claim that I’m a scum tracker – that’s a claim you are pulling out of thin air with nothing other than your opinion to back it up.

Post 740

– You tell hiplop that Barry should not reveal who he (I) tracked. You state flatly that I’m not lying about the fact that someone targeted Bob, but that whoever targeted you is not scum because Barry is a “scum tracker”. You go on to state that there is no way I faked the result and that it proves I cannot be town, because of the number of roles we have in the setup. You note that it is obvious someone tried to protect you and that there is “no way that Barry Allen is a town tracker”. You tell me not to reveal who tracked you if I “want to keep pretending to be town.”

Let’s talk about contradictions here. You don’t believe I’m telling the truth about what I am, but you are CERTAIN you were visited because I said you were? You told hiplop that I should NOT reveal who I tracked, then you try to bait me into revealing who I tracked in the SAME POST? Frankly, the contradictions here are amazing.

Post 756

– You start with saying we are NOT lynching Nintendo today “no matter what”. You state your belief that “every day he stays alive gives outrageous amounts of information to the town.” You then state that you don’t like my stating you are town at the start of my posts. You state again your reason for not believing I could be a town tracker – that you believe the round would be unbalanced if I were a town tracker given the number of roles believed to be in the round so far on behalf of the town. You state that I should not buy “for a second” nintendo’s claim if I’m really town and wonder why I’m voting Heliman instead of of Nintendo (as I was doing at that time).

Again, I don’t know that I buy the claim from nintendo – I just don’t think D2 is the day to take that chance. You started this post basically saying that very same thing, then turn around and say that I must be scum if I believe the same thing that you do.

Post 758

– You reply to hiplop with the reasons Barry should not out the report, giving three potential scenarios. The first scenario is that I am the town tracker….

WAIT, I thought there was “no scenario” where I COULD be a town tracker? Guess there really is, even if you won’t accept it.

Post 767

– You state that I’m not responding to your arguments and that I’m not using logic to back up my assertions. You ask that if I am a tracker, why am I not voting for Nintendo. Again, you bring up the number of roles.

Once again, I don’t know that I believe nintendoaddict’s claim, for the very reason you state. I just don’t believe D2 is the day to test that claim. Bob, you have repeatedly made that same argument, that we should not lynch Nintendo today. It does not make sense for you to repeatedly argue against lynching a player and then to turn around and vote for me because I agree we should not lynch Nintendo today.

Post 770

– you call out hiplop for continuing to ask PRs to out themselves.

I’ve seen hiplop’s actions as scummy, and you are calling him out here for what could reasonably be called anti-town behavior, yet my vote means that I’m scum? Again, you are not making sense.

Post 774

– You state, “That's fair. I guess scum probably does know the report, so it doesn't help us to keep it from the town. @ everybody - A mass claim might not be a bad idea about now. What do you think?”

I think it is still a VERY bad idea, Bob, and I’m surprised you didn’t at this point.

Post 778

– You’ve changed your mind about massclaims after ace votes for you, basically kissing up to ace and agreeing with him about, well, everything. You also state, “My scumhunting is based almost entirely on how people express themselves in their writing. That's my thing. I'll leave the "vote analysis" and the mass claiming and the whatever to you and all the MD people.” You then state that you don’t believe both Barry and Nintendo can be truthful, and then go back to work on your Heliman case.

You know, I knew you were going all over the place in some of your posts, but when I came back to analyze just the posts after you voted me I was amazed at how much you’ve contradicted yourself.

Post 788

– You once again claim I haven’t responded to your arguments and state that I’m trying to gradually move to a vote on you. You say that I’m treating it as a given that I’m town and am using AtE on you. You also claim I am using “fabricated outrage” on you. You also flatly defend hiplop as town. You add some pejorative content directed at me, then ask my opinion on some specific players with an AtE, stating that “If you are truly town, you have no reason not to do this.” You end with one last AtE claiming that “your mind is already racing about how to respond to this”.

OK, Bob, now you’re getting paranoid. If I wanted to vote you I would already have done so. You turned around 180 degrees on massclaiming when Ace voted you, and then you start acting paranoid because I called you out for not helping the town with your loose cannon approach. That’s your problem, not mine. As for your question at the end of your post, I’ve already stated that I think 2/3 scum can be found in: Giitah, Scumhunter and Heliman. Frankly, that’s more than the idea of 2 scum being claimed by Nintendo as being on the Pine vote. I’ve had bad vibes on each during D1 and haven’t seen much since to take my worries off them. Ace appears town to me, Foil leans town, and I don’t have a read on Valern (although Valern did lead that D1 wagon on me).
Let’s be real here – I’m not outraged, just highly irritated at your posting style. I’m amazed that you consider yourself logical, given that you really only have one argument (OK, two). Your arguments are one, that you don’t believe a balanced round would have so many PRs, and two “Barry is a poopy face”. Witness your next post:

Post 789

– “I mean c'mon people, how do you not see how full of shit this guy is?”

Again, pejorative posting, without logic, just an AtE.

TLDR: Bob is repeating one argument over and over, that he doesn’t believe that a fair and balanced round would include this number of PRs. OK, fair enough, I’m not sure I believe Nintendo either. But, Bob and I seem to agree on one point, that we should NOT lynch Nintendo today. The difference is that Bob wants us to agree that he is town when HE says it, and that I must be scum when I say it. Frankly, THAT is not logical

[hiplop]

gah that blue text hurts my eyes. Going to read that wall now

[hiplop]

k, i read it. Barry, would you be willing to start a Bob wagon with me? I've pointed out why i think hes scum: and you/ace are just re-affirming that for me.

[archaebob]

Alrighty, NOW it get's interesting.

Post 730

– Bob doubts the possibility that nintendo’s claim could be real. Then states flatly that Barry is scum, stating that the set up is unbalanced towards town even without the tracker claim being real. Bob states, “I bet my house that you’re a scum tracker.”

Let me restate what I have already said on this topic: I don’t know if nintendo’s claim is real or not, but I don’t like the idea of lynching a claimed role on D2 after we lynched a real role on D1 and lost another role N1. We do have time to come back to Nintendo if we wish at any time. As for the claim that I’m a scum tracker – that’s a claim you are pulling out of thin air with nothing other than your opinion to back it up.

Actually, at this point, I was expressing my belief that nintendo's claim is probably real. But meh.

Post 740

– You tell hiplop that Barry should not reveal who he (I) tracked. You state flatly that I’m not lying about the fact that someone targeted Bob, but that whoever targeted you is not scum because Barry is a “scum tracker”. You go on to state that there is no way I faked the result and that it proves I cannot be town, because of the number of roles we have in the setup. You note that it is obvious someone tried to protect you and that there is “no way that Barry Allen is a town tracker”. You tell me not to reveal who tracked you if I “want to keep pretending to be town.”

Let’s talk about contradictions here. You don’t believe I’m telling the truth about what I am, but you are CERTAIN you were visited because I said you were? You told hiplop that I should NOT reveal who I tracked, then you try to bait me into revealing who I tracked in the SAME POST? Frankly, the contradictions here are amazing.

Your characterization of this entire post is inaccurate.

1) I think you are lying about being town, but not about being tracker, and I think I've made that pretty clear. I can't imagine that you would fake that result as a goon. Therefore, I believe that I was targeted by someone, despite not believing your claim.

2) I didn't bait you into revealing anything. In fact, that whole part was trying to cut out your excuses ahead of time as an inb4youpretendtochangeyourmind.

Post 756

– You start with saying we are NOT lynching Nintendo today “no matter what”. You state your belief that “every day he stays alive gives outrageous amounts of information to the town.” You then state that you don’t like my stating you are town at the start of my posts. You state again your reason for not believing I could be a town tracker – that you believe the round would be unbalanced if I were a town tracker given the number of roles believed to be in the round so far on behalf of the town. You state that I should not buy “for a second” nintendo’s claim if I’m really town and wonder why I’m voting Heliman instead of of Nintendo (as I was doing at that time).

Again, I don’t know that I buy the claim from nintendo – I just don’t think D2 is the day to take that chance. You started this post basically saying that very same thing, then turn around and say that I must be scum if I believe the same thing that you do.

1) Do you disagree with my "opinion" about sensors, and how powerful they are?

2) Stop beating around the bush and answer this point blank: do you think it is

possible

that town has a roleblocker, a tracker, some other PR, a sensor, AND a mason team? By not voting for nintendo, you are saying that this is a possibility. I'm saying it isn't.

3) There's no contradiction. If you are town, you

know

you are town. You are not in a position to agree with my reasons for rejecting a nintendo lynch, because my reasons include the possibility of you being scum.

Post 758

– You reply to hiplop with the reasons Barry should not out the report, giving three potential scenarios. The first scenario is that I am the town tracker….

WAIT, I thought there was “no scenario” where I COULD be a town tracker? Guess there really is, even if you won’t accept it.

The post in question.

Your response to this is superficial and willfully blind to the main point. I was showing the logic of why you should not out your report period, regardless of your actual role. For the purposes of this demonstration, I had no reason not to include the unlikely scenario of you being a town tracker. This was a separate, self-contained argument that had nothing to do with my opinion of you.

I'm not sure why you responded to this post, as it didn't contain any attacks on you. I assume you included it for that "contradiction" theme you're trying to get going here?

Post 767

– You state that I’m not responding to your arguments and that I’m not using logic to back up my assertions. You ask that if I am a tracker, why am I not voting for Nintendo. Again, you bring up the number of roles.

Once again, I don’t know that I believe nintendoaddict’s claim, for the very reason you state. I just don’t believe D2 is the day to test that claim. Bob, you have repeatedly made that same argument, that we should not lynch Nintendo today. It does not make sense for you to repeatedly argue against lynching a player and then to turn around and vote for me because I agree we should not lynch Nintendo today.

I've already addressed why this is a false contradiction. It doesn't make sense that you wouldn't vote nintendo if you

knew for a fact that you were town.

Am I to believe that you aren't thorough enough a reader to understand this? That would certainly fly in the face of my overall impression of you.

Also, you are trying to act like I kept bringing up the same point over and over again for no reason.

You never responded to it.

The pathos

you

keep repeating about how bad it would be to mislynch

another

PR today isn't a response.

Post 770

– you call out hiplop for continuing to ask PRs to out themselves.

I’ve seen hiplop’s actions as scummy, and you are calling him out here for what could reasonably be called anti-town behavior, yet my vote means that I’m scum? Again, you are not making sense.

Anti-town=/=scum

Hiplop is obvtown.

And in any case, I don't

believe

your vote, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not hiplop has acted scummy.

Post 774

– You state, “That's fair. I guess scum probably does know the report, so it doesn't help us to keep it from the town. @ everybody - A mass claim might not be a bad idea about now. What do you think?”

I think it is still a VERY bad idea, Bob, and I’m surprised you didn’t at this point.

Why are you talking about this post? I thought this wall was about responding to

my

arguments against

you

.

Post 778

– You’ve changed your mind about massclaims after ace votes for you, basically kissing up to ace and agreeing with him about, well, everything. You also state, “My scumhunting is based almost entirely on how people express themselves in their writing. That's my thing. I'll leave the "vote analysis" and the mass claiming and the whatever to you and all the MD people.” You then state that you don’t believe both Barry and Nintendo can be truthful, and then go back to work on your Heliman case.

You know, I knew you were going all over the place in some of your posts, but when I came back to analyze just the posts after you voted me I was amazed at how much you’ve contradicted yourself.

You're doing it

again

.

If I look scummy to you, grow a pair and call me scummy. This is just reinforcing my earlier point about you foreshadowing future votes without doing anything.

You've spent a lot of time making sure everyone knows how town you think I am. Well, do you, or don't you? I'm even less interested in your BS than I was in Heliman's.

This wall was supposed to be your response to my arguments. Instead, you have spent half your time quoting unrelated posts and trying to subliminally paint me as scum. Why would you be doing this as town?

Post 788

– You once again claim I haven’t responded to your arguments and state that I’m trying to gradually move to a vote on you. You say that I’m treating it as a given that I’m town and am using AtE on you. You also claim I am using “fabricated outrage” on you. You also flatly defend hiplop as town. You add some pejorative content directed at me, then ask my opinion on some specific players with an AtE, stating that “If you are truly town, you have no reason not to do this.” You end with one last AtE claiming that “your mind is already racing about how to respond to this”.

OK, Bob, now you’re getting paranoid. If I wanted to vote you I would already have done so. You turned around 180 degrees on massclaiming when Ace voted you, and then you start acting paranoid because I called you out for not helping the town with your loose cannon approach. That’s your problem, not mine. As for your question at the end of your post, I’ve already stated that I think 2/3 scum can be found in: Giitah, Scumhunter and Heliman. Frankly, that’s more than the idea of 2 scum being claimed by Nintendo as being on the Pine vote. I’ve had bad vibes on each during D1 and haven’t seen much since to take my worries off them. Ace appears town to me, Foil leans town, and I don’t have a read on Valern (although Valern did lead that D1 wagon on me).
Let’s be real here – I’m not outraged, just highly irritated at your posting style. I’m amazed that you consider yourself logical, given that you really only have one argument (OK, two). Your arguments are one, that you don’t believe a balanced round would have so many PRs, and two “Barry is a poopy face”. Witness your next post:

I wasn't calling you a poopy face, and nothing in that post was "pejorative". Assertive, cocky, uninterested in being polite, yes. But I didn't insult you.

You can try and characterize my arguments as mindless yelling all you want, but at the moment they are all still standing.

Post 789

– “I mean c'mon people, how do you not see how full of shit this guy is?”

Again, pejorative posting, without logic, just an AtE.

On the contrary, I DID make an argument.

Maybe you should take a second look.

TLDR: Barry Allen has mischaracterized my exchanges with him throughout this entire wall, and continued to ignore the real arguments against him. In the meantime, he's found plenty of opportunities to insert random posts of mine that have nothing to do with his defense of himself and try and paint them as scummy contradictions. It is unclear right now whether he thinks I'm town or not.

Do you guys think this was a townish defense? I definitely don't.

[hiplop]

ok this is getting difficult..

[archaebob]

@ Hiplop -

Just read my iso next to Barry Allen's wall.

1) Does your interpretation of my posts line up with his?
2) Do his interpretations make sense coming from someone who seemed pretty fucking convinced that I was town not too long ago?
3) Would town-BA be quoting all this random stuff from my iso that has nothing to do with my arguments against him?

If you answer no to all of these, then leave your vote where it is. I don't give a shit if you want to wagon me later, but right now the pressure needs to stick.

[archaebob]

@ ace -

Why are you still voting me.

Something is not right here.

[xvart]

Up to page 18 now. Not sure if I'll get this done tonight but I'm going to try and power through. In the meantime...

VOTE: archaebob

[archaebob]

fuck I can't WAIT to hear this one...

xvart, I can't prevent you from pursuing this ill-advised course of action, but if you do so, it is imperative that you post other reads as well. I don't know a damn thing about your player slot right now.