Open 318: By Nomination Only (Game Over)

[Twistedspoon]

Muffin, you had better not actually be scum, or I look real bad from that reads list

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not scum and I never play like this as scum. Whimsically aggressive muffin is town muffin.

I'll make you a promise though, Twisted.

If I'm scum, I won't NK you.

Does that make you feel a bit better?

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.16

Amrun (4) - Hoopla, Cogito Ergo Sum, zMuffinMan, Twistedspoon
VitaminR (2) - Copper, Rory the Roman
Copper (2) - Amrun, VitaminR
malpascp (2) - Papa Zito, Fenchurch

Not Voting (1) - malpascp

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

The deadline is Wednesday, July 8, 2011, at 10:28 AM EDT (UTC-4).

Mod Notes

Amrun is V/LA for an indefinite period.
Equinox has limited access July 1 through 3.

For the July 4 holiday weekend, I will count July 1-4 as a 24-hour period.

[Amrun]

There is no nk this game, muffin - and I think you know that.

Am I still being lynched? Someone keep me updated so I can post some reads before I go.

[Amrun]

Zito, why did you say Hoopla doesn't know your town meta?

[zMuffinMan]

There is no nk this game, muffin - and I think you know that.

I am so tired right now I can't even be bothered to point out how perceptive you are. It's like I'm an open book. Sleep time

[VitaminR]

I don't do meta.

You just would always lynch a player whose natural playstyle looks scummy?

But anyway, I don't want to get into a discussion about meta. You still haven't really told me why you think NS/malp is scummy.

[Twistedspoon]

I'm not scum and I never play like this as scum. Whimsically aggressive muffin is town muffin.

I'll make you a promise though, Twisted.

If I'm scum, I won't NK you.

Does that make you feel a bit better?

Muffin promises always make me feel better :3

[Papa Zito]

Zito, why did you say Hoopla doesn't know your town meta?

I'm not sure a game from a year ago, in which she was lynched D1 and I replaced out D2, counts. But I'm no expert on this subject.

Vitamin we have this cool iso feature, give it a whirl.


Still need to reread but I got distracted by that linked game. Dat playerlist wowza.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla,

So, like, what was your point here?

I think my point was made clearly. I don't want to get in a semantics debate, and I'm sure you've got better ways to spend your time this game, as it seems like we're the only ones interested in this dialogue anyway. I laid out my beliefs in post 450 and my response is basically going to be rehashing the same logic. I'd love it if a neutral party would analyse or weigh in on our debate, because I think I have a case (and I'm sure you think likewise).

PS: loling at this bravado.

You'll never push a lynch on me, Hoopla, because you know it'll mean your death some time shortly afterward.

You're worried that you won't be able to talk your way out of it after it goes down, which is why you're not even going to try.

I absolutely would. I'm certainly not at the point where I'd gamble on sacrificing myself in a "lynch me/then him" or "lynch him and if I'm wrong lynch me" deal, because, well it's Day 1. However, for a Day 1 read, I'm pretty confident with it, which is empowering because I don't normally have strong feelings on Day 1.

[Hoopla]

I wouldn't put it past Hooplascum personally, but let's ask her.

Hoopla, do you think you're overly worried about looking townie as scum to the extent that you wouldn't make a scummy play such as pushing Muffin here, accepting for a moment that that would be scummy, even though it may be the right play long-term? (I'm sure you know what I'm describing; it's not an uncommon failing amongst scum.)

Erm. How much I worry about looking town in the present varies game by game - typically I try and balance how much I need to look town with how much I can get away with furthering my win-con. There's no point bussing your entire team to look obv-town in a game with a lot of PR's who could still luck out and catch you, but in a game where there are none (no external way of being caught), it might be a viable strategy. There's also no point trying to look like the most obv-town player early in a game with normal nightkills, as it sets you up later for the paranoid "why are you still alive?" questions, which is the part of the game where you really want to start looking town.

I honestly don't know how I would play as scum this game. I think the game being psuedo-nightless places a higher priority on trying to appear closer to the obv-town end of the scale. There are absolutely times where a play can be defined as a bad shortterm, but a good longterm move and vice versa. Bussing is the most common example of that - you're taking a shortterm hit (putting yourself closer to a loss by losing a teammate) in order to strengthen your longterm position. I'm not sure how willing or how much of a hit I'd be prepared to take now for the benefit of later, though. Sorry if that's a cop-out answer, but I really don't know how worried I'd be about my standing in the game. My guess is I'd be open to taking a short-term risk if it could net a decent return of town credit if it comes off, because these sort of games really require a scum or two to look obv-town deep in the game to compete with other obv-townies who will probably surface at some point and live until endgame.

Hope that helps!

[zMuffinMan]

I think my point was made clearly.

No, not really. I want you to answer this clearly:

Are you trying to say that when I said, "It's not solely that you didn't post content" that this was somehow incongruent with something I previously said? If so, what? And how does this make me scum?

Don't dodge the question.

I absolutely would. I'm certainly not at the point where I'd gamble on sacrificing myself in a "lynch me/then him" or "lynch him and if I'm wrong lynch me" deal, because, well it's Day 1. However, for a Day 1 read, I'm pretty confident with it, which is empowering because I don't normally have strong feelings on Day 1.

So why are you voting for Amrun? Are you just that much more confident that Amrun is scum?

I went back and looked at your case on Amrun, because I figured you must have struck gold or something based on where your vote currently is and what you're saying about me. I was disappointed.

So your case on Amrun is that she sheeped your vote on PZ (and you think this looked bad) and... and... that's it. Oh, you mentioned some crap about her finding scum tell for Vitamin (which is completely false) and then you insinuate that she pre-planned getting off the Vitamin wagon with that exchange (which looked to me like you were insinuating that Amrun is scum with Vitamin, which would sort of contradict your town read on Vitamin). Essentially, your case is terrible, and you have no real reason to think Amrun is scum, but you're voting her over me when you

think

you have a case on me and you're confident about it.

And you don't think there's anything wrong with this, I presume. Like you absolutely would try to get me lynched... BUT Amrun needs to die first. Right?

PS: Answer the question -

Why did you feel the need to ask the people on the Amrun wagon whether they'd abandon it for a muffin wagon?

I honestly don't know how I would play as scum this game.

Oh, right, you hadn't thought about how you'd play this game as scum up until now. Durrr, I believe that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Muffin-Hoopla is boring.

[zMuffinMan]

ur face is boring

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Your*

[Rory the Roman]

My reads were a little shook up by the fact that most of what I thought was scummy about Rory can be attributed to myko being one of the heads and strong town reads on Hoopla and CES.

I think I'll allow this... But as soon as you start calling me Shotty2 I'm going to lynch you.

buddy much?

anyways, Like muffin says; Amrun wagon isn't legit anymore

Time to go back and join Copper

VOTE: Vitamin

Yes, very buddy much indeed.

I need to do a hefty re-read with note-taking.

I'm following, but I'm conflicted on a lot of my reads, and it's hard to keep sight of the big picture.

UNVOTE:

I like the points raised by both Amrun and CES in their last two posts.

CES, between #306 and #315 you flip your read on Rory. What prompted this?

this post makes me worry about you. You are the kind of person who would kill people at night. I really expected less lurking from you. The bolded is odd and scummy.

Why so? I've observed enough towns get carried away tunnelling on other townies, whilst giving scum a free ride that I try to avoid doing that myself. Without stepping back every now and then, it can be easy to get taken in by the players who draw attention to themselves and ignore those who don't.

No Fenchurch. You need to step

forward

and do something. Which is not posting a vague list of reads. The bolded sentence shows how you are playing this game. Sitting back, providing nothing, and not trying to change that. This post was scummy. You never got into the game well and now you try to see how far you can get without taking a single risk.

[VitaminR]

Vitamin we have this cool iso feature, give it a whirl.

Oh, really?

I can evaluate NS for myself. I want to know why you think he's scum to get an insight into your thinking. Don't see why you're being so stubborn about it. Just a few lines will do.

[VitaminR]

My reads were a little shook up by the fact that most of what I thought was scummy about Rory can be attributed to myko being one of the heads and strong town reads on Hoopla and CES.

I think I'll allow this... But as soon as you start calling me Shotty2 I'm going to lynch you.

Good, I didn't mean it in a negative way. myko's style has its advantages. And anyway, us Dutchies have to stick together (seem to remember that myko is Dutch?). \buddying

[Copper]

Three things we made note of that deserve discussion:

1) malpascp is thus far the opposite of NS. Whereas NS exercised his vote with impunity, malpascp seems content with telling us how he feels about this game rather than showing us with his vote. We can understand wanting a full re-read, but at some point you just need to vote. Preferably in your next post.

2) Reading over Rory in isolation reveals something peculiar. We don't see much mention of Amrun anywhere. This seems extremely odd given that Amrun has arguably been the most controversial player in the game so far. He answers a couple of forgettable questions here and here, but these are almost entirely about Hoopla, not Amrun. The only other things I can see him addressing or discussing Amrun consist of negligible little fluffy things that never amount to much. Examples of this are here and here. We want to put this out there for input, because, prior to reading Rory in isolation, we were surprised at how much he has managed to avoid the now two-time highest vote-getter in this game.

3) PZ is still seemingly invisible here. He's been giving everyone a hard time over how he shouldn't be called a lurker, but there's just something

not there

about his posts. Let us be more specific:

Papa NoShow

Ummmmmmm I'm not getting the VitaminR wagon shift. Somebody help me.

I'm really scratching my head at these last two wagon shifts.

Posting so I don't get replaced. Apparently weekends aren't allowed round these parts.

I'll do realposting tonight.

Not seeing any reason to move my vote atm. All the apologists are just lulz.

Don't think I missed anything significant.

Also also I'm not quite sure what Hoopla is doing or if I like it.

All that said I think I'm at a point where I need to reread the game a bit.

Also, PZ, why are you so sure NS is scum?

Why are you so sure he's not? Also you realize there's a replacement in that slot right?

I'm rereading the game btw.

Vitamin we have this cool iso feature, give it a whirl.

Still need to reread but I got distracted by that linked game. Dat playerlist wowza.

Notice the amount of uncertainty, the needing to reread over, the headscratching, and the just general confusion. To be fair, these quotes are put together in such a way to paint a specific picture, but that doesn't change the fact that PZ has gone from him having a significant presence in the game to seemingly kicking his feet up and letting the game happen to him.

[malpascp]

I am still reading the whole thread.

This vote is only to reflect the impression I have so far; usually I don't like to be told what to do, but I guess you are right Cooper.

Vote:CES

[Twistedspoon]

usually I don't like to be told what to do, but I guess you are right Cooper.

about what?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Non-Amrun votes are pointless.

[zMuffinMan]

Rory's #490 is saddening. Rory, since your vote is still on Vitamin, I assume you still think he's scum, right? Do you think Twisted was buddying? Do you think Fenchurch is scummy or lazy town?

We want to put this out there for input, because, prior to reading Rory in isolation, we were surprised at how much he has managed to avoid the now two-time highest vote-getter in this game.

meh, that in itself is not particularly telling, there are probably quite a few people he hasn't really commented on. He spent most of the game tunneling me and now his vote is on Vitamin and he's just sort of... coasting by. Rory did say they think Amrun is town who cracked under pressure or something to that effect in one of his recent posts, though, but no elaboration and it was 'subject to change' after his other head re-read the thread (I assume that other head is still VLA, iirc).

[Hoopla]

Are you trying to say that when I said, "It's not solely that you didn't post content" that this was somehow incongruent with something I previously said? If so, what? And how does this make me scum?

You claimed your read on me was purely gut. After I questioned you, you claimed lack of content wasn't telling;

You're using (lack of) content as a scumtell for me (or at least a selling point)

No, I'm not. I commented that you didn't have any real content up until that point, but that's not why I think you're scum.

If I didn't have any content to go off and that wasn't suspicious, what was? What were you basing your gut-scum read of me on if not lack of content?

~~

Why did you feel the need to ask the people on the Amrun wagon whether they'd abandon it for a muffin wagon?

Because this is/was likely going to be the winning wagon if it isn't/wasn't derailed. If I'm honest, I didn't look over each player on the wagon and their individual reads when calling for support for a zMuffin wagon. I would have gladly accepted help from non-Amrun voters, and probably should have phrased it as such.

[zMuffinMan]

derp, ignoring that because you're clearly not reading.