TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

/confirm

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

How does that make name claiming non-optimal play? If it's not the standard Good vs Bad Guy scenario, what is the problem?

The thing is, no-one's actually given a reason why it would help the town in any way. Going 'Well it can't hurt' if it won't help either isn't a great idea, since there's always the possibility of it helping scum in a way you haven't thought of. Make a positive case for it other than 'Derp why not' and people might think about it.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

We'd be most afraid of obviously paired characters flagging up the possibility of masons, to be honest. I mean, for example if you were in a Simpsons game and two people claimed Carl and Lenny, what would you think if you were scum?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

VOTE: vezok

RVS Wagon go.

Also you have dared to challenge the ultimate coolness of my character. You must die.

(My bold)- Why do you feel the need to label your vote as being on an RVS wagon? I think it is quite clear, considering this was the second vote of the game, that we were still in RVS. There is no reason why a townie would have to make it so clear that their vote is a RVS vote. This looks to me like you are trying to distance yourself from the wagon if it were to result in a lynch on vezok.

On vezok: I agree that a mass nameclaim is neutral at best for town and it consequently should not be done. I don't think his request warrants a speedlynch, though (I don't know whether people are serious about it or it is just part of the jokevote stage),

but a pressure for him to fullclaim seems good.

In regards to the bolded … um whut????

UNVOTE: Vezok
VOTE: Rodion

Why, if you think pressuing him to fullclaim (which is a scumtastic idea in RVS) is a good plan did you vote DX?

You may want to look at Rodion's join date, he is clearly new to MS.net and is obviously new to the way we do things here. I expect better than this from townMoI. It appears to me that you are grasping at straws in an attempt to get a real wagon going since a vezok policy lynch is not going to happen (which I think is what you were hoping for).

Vote: MoI

How does that make name claiming non-optimal play? If it's not the standard Good vs Bad Guy scenario, what is the problem?

Trying to guess out the PR's in the town. For instance, House M.D. (if used) would more likely than not be a doctor or some saving role. To fit the character.

That is complete bulshit.

Last game every single role was randomized.

Spider man was a neighbourizer.

I suggest a mass name claim because it starts discussion because I like to be in character.

(My bold)- Friendly

neighborhood

Spiderman. I dont think that all roles were entirely random, and I think that a mass nameclaim is a bad idea for reasons that have already been given. That said, everyone lets stop with the discussion of one. Town gains nothing from it, and scum could pick something up from it.

Earl Hickey present.

U_U

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Ok, so your assertions are that –

1. Town players never label votes RVS votes?
2. I’m trying to distance from a theoretical lynch that never got more than 4 votes off the ground?

1. I have never, ever, ever seen a townie label their vote as being in RVS. Have you ever done this before? Have you even seen other townies do this before?
2. Yes, that is the way I saw it.

Oh, so pressuring players to determine their alignment and level of competency isn’t allowed?

No, that is fine of course, I just saw it as going after an easy target.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

@ Pappums Leather Jacket: please confirm that:

• You are a hydra/alt including/of pappums rat
  
• This post was written by pappums rat (specifically pertaining to the MoI attack)

Yes on both counts. The other head (currently posting) is The Fonz, fwiw. We're trying to play as an unified voice as much as possible- the intention is to have PapRat be the posting head most of the time.

Our problem with labelling the vote RVS (and fwiw, I don't think I've seen a townie go to the point of labelling their RVS vote RVS) is unnecessary. It actually undermines the pressure value of the vote, and does leave open the possibility for later of 'My vote was just RVS, I didn't expect all these other players to make the wagon get out of hand like they have done.' Help build a wagon before distancing from it later. That said, we wish to note that

We also have something of a problem with MoI's pushing of Rodion. Specifically, MOI should be familiar with the newbie escalator. That is, a newbie comes in, says something that's poorly phrased or normal on another site but considered scummy here, they're attacked for it, and they start flailing, causing people to pile on with 'Well, it wasn't that big a deal, but her reaction was scummy...' type logic. They make a defence that mentions their newness and unfamiliarity with how mafia is played here, they're accused of playing the newbie card, they say that scum are pushing their lynch, people cry omgus, they describe themselves as mislynches (possibly easy mislynches) they get accused of AtE, they don't scumhunt as much because they're defending themselves, they're accused of not wanting to find scum. I tend to think that it's more useful to turn down the pressure for a bit, and see if the newbie starts scumhunting.

All that said, we are aware of the trap of finding something small someone does early slightly scummy, then they argue with you and you get into a pattern of being each other's interlocutors. Whatever we might think of MoI's tactics, he is at least trying.

We will

unvote, vote Chevre.

Enters, and makes a completely random vote, totally ignoring the somewhat more relevant vezok stuff that was already happening, then unvotes without coming up with a new one, and makes a comment about the nameclaim stuff that was already resolved. We're not seeing any pressing scumhunting motivation from that slot.

Unvote, vote: Chevre

.

Incidentally, we think Vezok's likely town. Scum tend to try to avoid becoming one of the first few wagons. Any plan you can propose, you can pretty much guarantee

someone's

going to find it antitown and call you scum for suggesting it. And if it isn't antitown, then, well, it's helping town and why would scum want to do that?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

The point of the Vezok wagon wasn’t to pressure Vezok. You understand that, right?

Strikes me that in that case, labelling it as RVS still is counterproductive to the stated aim. More to the point, I've seen Vezok quicklynched within a couple of pages and 48 RL hours before simply for being him.

Yeah, we are certainly going to have to disagree about the “Newbie Elevator” theory. If you are playing outside the “Road to Rome”, especially in themed games, you are assumed (by me at least) to have enough of a passing understanding of how things are done here.

He's never played on this site before. Incidentally, the 'Newbie elevator' basically describes a significant proportion of day one mislynches on this site, so it's something to be aware of. If a newbie does something scummy early, then starts flipping his shit, raising the temperature is only going to cause him to flip his shit more.

Please clarify what you are saying here because, to quote the Simpsons, “I know all those words, but that makes no sense to me”.

1) Scum don't want to help town, or get wagoned.
2) If you propose a plan, if it is good you will help town, if it is bad you will get wagoned (and sometimes if it's good you'll get wagoned anyway by people who see things differently).
3) Therefore, scum will steer clear of suggesting any kind of claim or action plan early on.

Same works for policy lynching. You know there's going to be a significant minority of the town calling for the head of anyone who dares suggest anything that looks like a policy lynch, therefore people proposing D1 policy lynches are usually town.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

:sigh: for iso purposes:

Strikes me that in that case, labelling it as RVS still is counterproductive to the stated aim. More to the point, I've seen Vezok quicklynched within a couple of pages and 48 RL hours before simply for being him.

Please show me an example other than Vi’s “Mafia of the Complicated Seraph Mechanics” or whatever it was called because that quichlynch was completely policy in response to “Objection” Mafia and IMO was frankly deserved.

Because I haven’t seen any others.

I'll let Fonz get back to you on that, but while there are still questions on the table, would you mind answering mine that you haven't yet? They were:

I have never, ever, ever seen a townie label their vote as being in RVS. Have you ever done this before? Have you even seen other townies do this before?

Please provide links to both. I have only ever seen this happen once, from lynched scum, but it's an ongoing game so I cant fully disclose it until the game is over.



Also, ThAdmiral:

1. I have never, ever, ever seen a townie label their vote as being in RVS. Have you ever done this before? Have you even seen other townies do this before?

What? Yes, of course.

I would like links to this as well, if you wouldnt mind.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Also, so that we all will know whose hydra's are whose, who are you comprised of Zelink?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Regardless of whether or not I had seen it once from scum, I would still find labeling a vote as RVS strange on a site that practically never does this. I see it as distancing from the wagon, and as such see scum motivation behind it.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

1. & 4. A "PL" is a Policy Lynch, where you propose to lynch someone regardless of alignment because their actions will only hurt the town later on.

God, people seem to be totally misunderstanding the whole concept of policy lynching. Policy lynching, for years, has meant the following:

There are certain actions which make absolutely no sense for town (that is, they either inevitably hurt the town, risk catastrophic harm to town, or at the very least don't have any benefit) or are so valuable to scum if they can get away with it, that people will lynch on sight anyone who does them. Examples include the most well-known, lynch all liars (the majority of people caught out lying about their roles are scum) lynch all claimed millers (if you don't lynch for it, it's an excellent move for scum because they've neutered the threat of cop investigation) and lynch anyone who claims Vanilla Townie when not facing impending lynch (because that really helps the scum narrow down who the ). Other examples include lynch all claimed third parties, lynch all lurkers, lynch all selfvoters... one player in the past had a lynch all claimed doctors policy, because he believed that scum were claiming doc so often, and actual town docs were killed pretty much immediately most of the time, that it made more sense just to lynch anyone who claimed doctor.

Policy lynching ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT mean you don't think the player is scum. You think he is. You think that one action he has taken is SO scummy that he's very likely to be scum just based on that. Policy lynching has the additional effects of removing derps from the game (because people who do massively antitown stuff as town are pretty much inevitably either derps or trying some weird gambit, or both) and deterring that behaviour in other players, which are positive developments, but they're not the reason you do it.

To quote JEEP, the father of lynch all liars 'Dumb or scum used to be a commonly-used phrase on site. I decided that I didn't want to assume the people I was playing with were idiots. If they did something that couldn't be rationally justified from a town perspective, I wouldn't think 'moron' I'd think 'scum.''

Lynching someone

because they're an horrifically bad player

before they've even done anything scummy is an entirely new development, has only happened once to my knowledge (to Vezok) and probably needs a new name. A blacklist lynch or something. I support policy lynching, but I've never done that, though ABR sorely tempted me back in the day.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

David: the mod has made a policy of allowing them to remain anon. If you wish to use your vote in-game to pressure them into reveal, then feel free. Some longstanding hydras will allow themselves to be lynched rather than reveal heads, but these normally have enough hydra meta that it can be lived with.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

After re-reading the game, I have to admit that despite the RVS thing, MoI does look town to me, he is asking good questions and I can see him scumhunting. I also have townreads on Pinky and the Brain, vezok, Zelink, and killerjester. On the other hand, I have scumreads on Zinger, PeregrineV, and Leonshade. Zinger is not putting forth any sort of content whatsoever, despite doing some pretty decent scumhunting in Super Hero Mafia. PeregrineV and Leonshade both look like they are active lurking, not putting much content out, and not really committing to any reads.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

@Mod: Please prod chevre and oversoul

Also, this mass flake is exactly why everyone told jilynne she wasn't going to be allowed to be in 8 games at once. 'No, I can handle it, I've got tons of free time' she said.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Zinger townslipped. He's town.

Further reads and possible votehop pending consultation with partner.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

First off, since both heads of this hydra are trying to post as one, we will not be signing posts.

We think it would be in the town's best interests for Zinger to fullclaim. You have claimed that you are not town-aligned, and therefore the town has reason to investigate your motives. Just taking your word for it is not good enough.

I do not like the way that Junpei has been pushing the zinger wagon. Someone claiming that they are not town is obviously going to get people's attention, and I feel like zinger would be an easy lynch for scum. I especially dont like the way Junpei has claimed that Zinger "doesnt deserve to win". This has no rational reasoning behind it, and is more of an AtE than a decent argument why Zinger should be lynched.

More later.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Vote: Zinger

We believe Zinger should be the lynch for today for several reasons.

1. He has claimed third party, which is clearly anti-town and therefore he has no reason to help town.
2. His claimed ability of jailkeeping is bad for town. He is anti-town, and therefore his JK's will not be with the intention of helping the town. Our PRs may get blocked, and he has no reason to try to avoid blocking them because his only intention will be to fulfill his wincon.
3. His roleclaim does not make sense. He claims that the person he JK's that is his target will be

roleblocked

for the rest of the game, when he is supposedly a jailkeeper. Also, as has been mentioned, the chances of him completing his wincon are very slim if he is what he says he is.

In any case, we know that Zinger is not town. At the worst, we would be killing someone with an anti-town role. At best we would be killing scum who tried an awful scum-gambit and failed. Either way, we would be getting rid of someone who we know is not town and has an ability that can hurt the town.

I am a jailkeeper. Which means I also protect my targets, but I guess that's not something worth considering for you guys.

I've noticed the majority of players on this website are overconfident and arrogant and rude. I much prefer the other website I play on. The playerbase here sucks.

But alas, you do have a higher activity rate here. It's a shame really.

By the way, I've been lying to you all. I'm actually the town doctor.

Except I'm not, that was a lie. Or was it?

Your mom said hi.

ROFLMAO. This is the best mafia site on the internet with the best playerbase. If you prefer the other website you play on, then why do you continue to play here? MS.net is like the big leagues of mafia, and you should expect people here to be confident. We take our game seriously. How do you expect people to react when someone is a failvig and then does not take anyone's advice and then comes in here and plays the way you do in this game? No one in this game has been overly rude to you, you just cant handle any sort of criticism at all.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

I have not really liked silverdrummer's defense of himself in his back-and-forth with MoI, but this next sentence really pushed me over the edge to a scumread on him:

3. You are either an arrogant idiot or you know exactly why he requested replacement which you wouldn't know unless you have inside knowledge.

Everyone please note this as evidence of bussing or cheating or more than likely arrogance

That is a huuuuuge stretch, and accusing MoI of cheating is quite a nasty thing to do without any sort of evidence. I thought the replace out was suspect as well. He claimed he was going to post later and then left the game without any kind of acknowledgement of this in the game thread. And I dont like silverdrummer's hardcore tunnelling on Pine either, it looks like bussing to me (though by himself Pine doesnt look scummy to me, just a serious lurker).

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Zinger, supposing you are a town Jailkeeper, why did you think it was a good idea to play the way you have so far?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

We believe Zinger should be the lynch for today for several reasons.

Let’s rewind a bit Pappums.

What happened to “Zinger Townslipped”? Please point to the exact post where he did such slip that justified your original statement.

This is the post where we thought Zinger had townslipped:

Chevre's wall post strikes me as the kind of wall post a lurker scum would make after her scumbuddies prodded her and said "hey, you're lurking too much!"

vote: Chevre

In this post he suggested this post might have been the result of prodding from a scumbuddy, implying that the scum have daytalk. We believe that this is a mistake commonly made by newbie TOWN who haven't been scum, but not by newbie scum who would know that scum don't have daytalk. Jason's previous games have not had daytalk. This was before his claims and before his meltdown.

Oh god, just when I thought it couldn't get any worse. Why, Zinger? WHY? You are playing the worst game I have ever seen, by a LONG way. The third-party claim. The lies. The attempt to make us all uncertain.

We lynch you today. Worst-case scenario, we lynch a Townie who was playing a really awful strategy and who would have been a serious hinderance if left alive. Best-case scenario, we lynch a scum who went on the stupidest gambit ever.

But whatever happens, I'm blacklisting you, and I hope others will do the same.

Hey izak dont you have some comments/questions to respond to from someone? (I think it was Zelink) Your avoidance of him is really shady.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Please... ftlog... stop with the setup speculation. This is not helping the game AT ALL and is a HUGE distraction.

We havent said much about Chevre recently because Zinger has been such a distraction, but we would like to bring up a few points that we think stand out.

...
We will unvote, vote Chevre. Enters, and makes a completely random vote, totally ignoring the somewhat more relevant vezok stuff that was already happening, then unvotes without coming up with a new one, and makes a comment about the nameclaim stuff that was already resolved. We're not seeing any pressing scumhunting motivation from that slot. Unvote, vote: Chevre.
...

I ignored because, really, what else was there to say? vezok's idea was a bad one, and plenty of people had already said that. As for the last part of this excerpt of your post, I'll be honest: I didn't have any motivation. When I read those first five pages and saw such a mess, I didn't want to come back and try to sift through it. This isn't a town or scum tell, it's a human being tell.

This is BS. I am a human being, and quess what? I read them because I want to find scum. That is the way you find scum, you read and you look for the poster's motivation behind the post.

Also, this post right here is pretty much a microcosm of Chevre's play thus far:

Pinky and the Brain: I've read Post #417 thrice now, and I have to ask, why did you put the case for izak in spoiler? It seems like something a skimmer would just brush right over.

Zinger townslipped. He's town.

You need to explain this.

Meransiel - activity is not measured in post counts. I have provided more information in one post than you have have in all your posts.

Zinger2009, are you town? It's a simple yes/no question.

Also, Meransiel, after your apparent revelation with marco, are you going to contribute now?

How is any of this useful for town? From bitching about a player's formatting to telling us we "need to explain" to asking "are you scum" (not going to produce anything useful) to asking Meransiel to contribute, what is any of this going to accomplish? What is this going to do for town? Nothing. This has been Chevre so far, no scumhunting and making asinine comments that dont move the game along. Chevre is among our top scumreads, and we thought we would let everyone know our opinions on him.

We still prefer a Zinger lynch at this point though. His retraction of his third party claim makes it more likely that he is scum. Retracting such a claim is a survival -minded move. He should never have claimed third party as town, whilst it makes some sense for a third party player who is survival oriented to say WHATEVER THE HELL IT TAKES to stay alive, and we *might* see him doing a third party claim as scum, hoping to buy time. We don't think the 'permanently roleblocked' thing is the sort of thing a town gambiter would come up with off the top of his head. The most likely thing is he is actually third party, with an outside chance of being scum. Also, if the town is NOT going to lynch him, then it needs to commit to NEVER lynching him (barring investigation) and hoping for a vigging. This is important - any later day, we will have more info than today, so lynching Zinger will have a higher opportunity cost.

Also, we have one more comment, for Junpei. Junpei, your extreme arrogance is unsupported by your experience on this site. Learning humility will help you play better.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Actually, JK isnt even redundant in a game with a single scum faction. It could be used, for example, to both roleblock and stop people targeting a scummy claimed-PR. .

I don't understand this statements. And we can have multi-layered discussions just fine. As long as the top layer is relevant.

Zel1ink is assuming the 'strong' version of JK, called an Alien on Xylbot, where the JK effectively removes the player from the game for a night, rendering him untargetable as well as roleblocking, rather than merely

protecting,

which is the standard on MS.

The thing about scum JK is twofold:

1) It counters the 'JK must be town' meta
2) It can be used as a mafia doctor on a player not performing the kill (as it was in Simpsons)
3) It doesn't permit of the bet-hedging 'kill AND roleblock' strategy, which scum occasionally use.

Also, whoever claimed it was conceived as a doc alternative, not an RB alternative is laughable, since Yos2 invented it, and he uses it primarily as a roleblocking action. Also note that there's no reason that him claiming JK means he actually is one: JK is a common claim for a scum RB since people tend to distrust town RB claims.

@Meri: Why is tunnelling scummy?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

We still prefer a Zinger lynch at this point though. His retraction of his third party claim makes it more likely that he is scum. Retracting such a claim is a survival -minded move. He should never have claimed third party as town, whilst it makes some sense for a third party player who is survival oriented to say WHATEVER THE HELL IT TAKES to stay alive, and we *might* see him doing a third party claim as scum, hoping to buy time. We don't think the 'permanently roleblocked' thing is the sort of thing a town gambiter would come up with off the top of his head. The most likely thing is he is actually third party, with an outside chance of being scum. Also, if the town is NOT going to lynch him, then it needs to commit to NEVER lynching him (barring investigation) and hoping for a vigging. This is important - any later day, we will have more info than today, so lynching Zinger will have a higher opportunity cost.

Hey, weren’t you the slot banging on me for pressuring Vifam as it was violating your “Newbie escalator” theory earlier? Yeah, you totally were.

Yet you are hammering Zinger (who should obv qualify for said Newb status IMO) for flailing around just like your theory explicitily states Newb Town would do. If you were being consistent about your ‘theory’ you should recognize that. But nope … you don’t and instead push using nice flowery language like “opportunity cost”

Hey look, Cognitive Dissonance from Pappums. Have this bright, shiny

FOS – Pappums

I don’t give those out usually. You should be honored to receive one. It’s a mark of my respect for the Leather Jacket half of your Hydra.

These two examples are very different, so comparing them is stretching it a bit. I dont think we have ever played a game with Vifam before, but the pappums head of this hydra did play a game with Zinger (Super Hero Mafia) where Zinger did some pretty decent scumhunting and basically kept his head on straight until people criticised him for being such a terrible vig. We dont see any reason why town-Zinger (who is clearly less of a newbie) would go off the deep end like he has here when vig-Zinger from SHM didnt claim at all in the game and kept his head on.

Here's a little thought for you sparky,

everyone put under pressure D1 is going to claim a PR

.

Ummm... no. The pro-town thing to do as a townie is to claim VT if you are VT. Most experienced people would do this. It is absurd to say that everyone is going to claim a PR.

I think that we have to lynch someone who claims PR, because, like David says everyone will most likely claim a PR.

Then I guess your Tracker claim should be discounted then if people are deciding who to lynch?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Not my fault that Hoppster likes spoiler tags:U.

I feel like this day is stagnating. Let's lynch Zinger and get it over with.

-diddin

I agree, 40 pages is more than what is optimal for day 1. We have gotten pretty much all we can out of Day 1, and now I think we need some flips.

I prefer izak, but he's V/LA, and eh.

Worst. Vote. Ever.

Seriously, voting someone for being V/LA? What the fuck.

RTFT.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

I prefer izak, but he's V/LA, and eh.

Worst. Vote. Ever.

Seriously, voting someone for being V/LA? What the fuck.

Seriously, if you can't see that Pinky was saying he wanted to vote Izak but wouldn't because Izak is V/LA, you are literally a fucking moron. I'd actually wonder if you'd suffered a serious head injury, because it is so fucking obvious.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

These two examples are very different, so comparing them is stretching it a bit. I dont think we have ever played a game with Vifam before, but the pappums head of this hydra did play a game with Zinger (Super Hero Mafia) where Zinger did some pretty decent scumhunting and basically kept his head on straight until people criticised him for being such a terrible vig.

Zinger is a relative newcomer to MS and your attempts to downplay that are noted.

Anyone who has read SuperHero Mafia that wanted to realistically argue that Zinger did a ‘Good Job’ scum hunting when he never shot Scum and constantly butted heads with / ignored me (who did catch scum aplenty) is either likely scum or stupid.

And I know pappums isn’t stupid.

Relative newcomer, yes, but he has at the very least finished a large theme game here. IDK WTF Vifam's level of play has been here.

I never said Zinger did a "good job" of scumhunting, I said "he did some pretty decent scumhunting". By this I meant he was actively scumhunting and contributing to the game, not that he was "raping da scumz".

Butting heads with you and ignoring you does not mean he wasnt scumhunting in that game.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Could everyone please tell me in what order they rank the following possibilities:

1) Zinger is town
2) Zinger is scum
3) Zinger is actually third party?

I'd go 3-2-1. I just don't see town coming up with that kind of detailed third party claim, at all. I do think third party would likely retract if they thought it would help avoid lynch, and I still maintain the business with assuming daytalk suggests not-scum.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Because he IS third party, duh.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

We don't believe that Junpei's habitual extreme and disproportionate self-assurance is in any way a scumtell. We think he genuinely believes he's smarter than everyone else.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

So that's you and Leonshade not reading the game then... interesting.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Right, and that's a good argument. I've never seen town claim third party before. I cannot envisage any scenario in which it is a good idea for town to claim third party. I HAVE seen scum claim third party. If some people who do X are scum and none are town, then it's a good lynch.

Also, you're forgetting the whole timeline. Zinger was being wagoned for refusing to contribute. So he claims 3p, with the explanation that his lack of scumhunting was because, as a third party, he didn't want to upset the scum and get nightkilled. Well, if he's retracted his third party claim, then we have to accept that he has not presented any kind of justification for the kind of behavior that got him wagoned in the first place, because he's retracted the explanation he did offer.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

^
|

The above directed at zelink, ninjad by MoI.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

The Fonz replaces Crappy/Pvt Slate... Sorry, thought I posted that last night.

Uh, what the fuck Jason?

Have you sent the role PM to my main? If so, you need to delete it before I log in again (I can give ~24 hours but no longer since that will impact negatively on the newbie game I'm modding). If you haven't, then please say so.

(For the record, what happened is that I offered to crossreplace into another game on Jason's behalf if necessary to help him find a replacement here, and he must have gotten confused).

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

silver, if you are still a part of a hydra in this game could you please post under your hydra account?

Zelink seems to be coming up with every defense and excuse possible for Zinger while not taking into consideration the solid points that are raised against him.

This day needs to end FFS.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Banshee, which particular game do you mean in terms of your Fonz meta?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

LOL 4 year old meta. I wondered how anyone could think it was 'usual' for me to defend newbies, since relentless persecution of antitown players (who tend to be newbies) is more what I'm known for. Incidentally, I stand by the assertion that voting no-lynch day one is not scummy, and attacking it IS. Here, it's more that MoI appeared to be trying to instigate a newbie meltdown (get emotional, omgus etc) which I didn't think was a particularly good way to read Rodion, but a very good way to get him lynched or forced to claim early on. FWIW, I don't think Rodion has covered himself in glory since the pressure died down.

So that's the little mystery of your identity solved, anyway. All I can say is thank God you're not Starbuck.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Regardless, I know that the flavour is a summary of the character, but as I said, by luck or planning, there could be a role like "Chief Wiggum - Town Cop", or "Groundskeeper Wullie - Town Gravedigger". It wouldn't be wise to blinker ourselves to it, 'lest we go after someone who would have been incredibly useful.

Go read Superhero Mafia. Power-roles were purposefully randomly selected. The same is likely here based on the nature of the game and other information at my disposal.

Then stop outguessing the Mod if you somehow are Town.

My reading of David's post is that he's not outguessing the mod, he's warning the town AGAINST outguessing the mod: that is, just because roles are random, doesn't mean that the flavour might not

accidentally

fit.

Should be on record that I strongly dislike this way of doing things: seems to me that if the rolenames are completely irrelevant to the roles, then there's no actual point having them.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Should be on record that I strongly dislike this way of doing things: seems to me that if the rolenames are completely irrelevant to the roles, then there's no actual point having them.

Ok, I'll be on record with two things.

1. That this post really is a good guide when Pappums / Fonz is the Mod but is meaningless to the discussion here. Buiilding a Theme game that isn't "Outguessable" based on linking PowerRoles to flavor is just as valid as strongly linking flavor.
2. That this post is another example of Non-scumhunting that pervades your ISO and further strenghtens my "PLJ" is scum read.

Holy Strawman, Batman. Ignoring the game-relevant body of the post, commenting only on the concluding aside, then coming to the conclusion that there's no scumhunting going on? THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU CUT THE RELEVANT PART (that you were misstating David's position) out of the quote.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Right, massive MoI response time.

1. Why it is possible that Zinger's claim is a scum gambit.

Firstly, your assertion that he was not under pressure is false. He had four votes, was tied for the lead, and two of those votes had accrued pretty quickly when he first hinted he might not be town.

Secondly, the benefits to scum of pulling such a gambit are fairly obvious. If his third party claim is believed and he is not lynched, he gets away with going through the game not saying anything relevant. That is an obvious boon to scum. In addition, he probably protects himself from any potential rival scumgroups or SKs that might be floating around.

Thirdly, we believe it is not necessarily the case that he knew his third party claim would bring him heat. On Xylbot, survivors tend to claim first post and are usually ignored from there. Without greater familiarity with EpicMafia, it's hard to say if it's the same, but it certainly

could

be. Either way, if he knew that third party claimants usually get lynched, he likely doesn't claim third party as any alignment, that would just be ridiculously stupid.

Fourthly, the 'Claim Doc' part of his string of claims doesn't make sense from the 'avoiding NK' perspective, and is dangerous for town (possibility of counterclaim outing real doc) whilst useful for scum (same reason) and is not much more likely to keep you alive than merely a town JK claim.

Fifthly, the Pappums head of this hydra has played with Zinger as a town power role before, and in that game, as we said previously, appeared to put a good amount of effort into his scumhunting. That he isn't doing that here could speak to a difference in motive. Pappums head strongly feels you twisted his words by interpreting 'decent scumhunting' as being excellent or incisive as opposed to sincere or noticeable. Fonz head thinks your interpretation was a reasonable misunderstanding, but the fact remains that is not what we meant. Believe us or not, really. Still, we don't think you've really engaged with the point that we wouldn't expect a player who's shown himself to be sober and competent as a town PR in another game to act like a massive derp as town PR in this game.

Seventhly, as a result of Khan's game of mafia, where Iamausername as scum

deliberately lied in such a way to make it look like a town gambit

in order to gain towncred, Fonzhead is incredibly reluctant to suffer any known liar to live.

We think the most likely scenario is that he actually is third party. Then, the motive makes sense at pretty much every point. That said, as this kind of third party, at the very least he has an incentive to rolefish in order to find out who his target is. And his behaviour is simply SO derpy for town that we can't believe anyone would legitimately be that stupid.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Yes. We're also going to respond to his criticisms of our play, but we figured that our case on Zinger was the important bit, and long enough that we didn't want to then add another three or four points onto the end of it.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

2. On the 'Newbie Escalator'

Firstly, as noted in the previous post, we don't think Zinger should be given a n00b pass. He has demonstrated himself to be somewhat competent in a different game on-site.

Secondly, it was Rodion, not Vifam. We have been trying to analyze the Vifam wagon, and have really struggled to get our collective heads around it.

Thirdly, there's an obvious difference between the two cases. You jumped on something Rodion said that seemed to us either the result of poor phrasing or simple noobishness (and for the record, we believe that it was reasonable to interpret the threat of a Vezok quicklynch as real since it's happened before). You then went through, calling his defenses and explanations scummy, and such that you'd put him in the position of being under a large amount of pressure and giving the appearance of cracking before he'd even had the chance to scumhunt. We felt a better way to discern his alignment would be to turn down the heat, and see if he made a real effort to help the town when NOT in the spotlight, then come back to him later if he started behaving in a scummy manner when people weren't looking.

By contrast, Zinger came under attack in the first place precisely because he didn't say anything useful or relevant when other people were the focus of attention (and as such, there was the possibility of saying something useful or interesting about them). Our particular focus in this game has been on people who haven't done anything to make us think they have town motives. You could call that 'weak' if you want, but in our eyes not scumhunting is the number one scumtell.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

--

1. Why it is possible that Zinger's claim is a scum gambit.

Firstly, your assertion that he was not under pressure is false. He had four votes, was tied for the lead, and two of those votes had accrued pretty quickly when

he first hinted he might not be town.

No, that’s absurd. 4 votes when 14 are required to lynch is hardly significant pressure. In a game this size you can fall into 4 votes via RVS quick as a blink. Being tied means that at least one other person was under the same ‘level’ ( I use the term loosely) pressure so that hardly causes a rational player to panic.

Sorry, is your argument that Zinger is a rational player? Also seriously, what part of 'Leading wagon' did you not understand?

In context 4 votes is less than 1/3 of the votes required to vote today. Put into context of a 13 player game …. it would be the equivalent of making his claim with 2 votes Day 1. Hardly pressure at all.

The bolded actually further undermines your argument. You state he got half of those 4 mighty votes for hinting he wasn’ Town. Thus outright claiming 3rd Party isn’t a good survival tactic for scum to use if hinting you were not Town earns you votes.

No, that isn't what we said. We said he already had four of those votes when he first hinted he might not be town. That's clearly what 'He had four votes... when he first hinted he might not be town' means.

Question

– why would scum even hint they were not Town, as you report, in the first place?

I'm confused. Why would town even hint they were not town? It's at least as stupid for town as it is for scum.

You are arguing that it’s beneficial to scum to pull a gambit Day 1 that resulted in a massive wagon because on the off-chance it works they may be able to slide by through the game. That’s absurd logic. The risks in that scenario outweight the rewards greatly when

JUST NOT CLAIMING 3RD PARTY

in a Large game means he was much more likely to skate by for days even if he active lurks.

1) You're assuming he knew it would result in a massive wagon. If he knew it was going to result in a massive wagon, I don't think he does it as any alignment. Clearly, he must have thought that claiming third party would defuse some of the pressure on him.

2) He was getting directly pressured for active lurking. He'd just gained two votes in quick succession. Someone had threatened to vig him in a manner that, at least, wasn't entirely clear it

wasn't

serious. The idea that he would definitely get away with it sounds like a huuuuuuuge stretch.

3) If you're town in that position (trying to active lurk to look a little scummy) and you start feeling the heat, would it not be better just to start doing a little scumhunting to relieve the pressure?

4) The result of the gambit, if it 'worked' IE didn't result in him getting pushed to death's door, would be allowing him to go on active lurking like a mofo. There is a scum motive for that. There is a third party motive. There is no town motive.

Not putting yourself on the radar as any sort of Target so trumps actively making yourself a Lynch and possible SK / Other Mafia target (since the SK or Other Mafia, if they exist, can’t know that they aren’t the subject of Claimed 3rd party JK’s search).

Again, in what way is this not true for a town power role? If your motive is to preserve your role so you can help the town at night, doesn't 'Not making yourself a target' seem like the best move there, too? You've not presented ONE reason why it would be UNIQUELY bad for scum to do that gambit that doesn't also apply to town.

So you are using conjecture about Xylbot and EpicMafia (neither of which Zinger has indicated he has ANY exposure to) as support for your argument. No, that doesn’t fly.

We know, because Zinger has said as such, that he plays elsewhere. The majority of sites where mafia is played seem to have more in common with EM than here. You are assuming that he is thinking in a 'Mafiascum style' and would be aware that claiming third party would be most likely to result in his swift demise. I am arguing for the possibility that he thought claiming 3p would boost his survival chances. Because, again: SUICIDE IS NOT A GOOD MOVE FOR TOWN EITHER!

Fourthly, the 'Claim Doc' part of his string of claims doesn't make sense from the 'avoiding NK' perspective, and is dangerous for town (possibility of counterclaim outing real doc) whilst useful for scum (same reason) and is not much more likely to keep you alive than merely a town JK claim.

First off my reading of the ‘Doc’ claim was a frustrated joke by Zinger. When it was made his ‘gambit’ had blown up in his face and he was being sarcastic, IMO.

Didn't read that way to us, but whatever. Not an important issue.

Second that you didn’t bother to worry about a counterclaim from a Town blocking role (RB / JK) but only worried about a Doc counterclaim rings false.

So now you're actually making up arguments and putting them into our mouth? Holy shit. The point we're making is that for someone who has a genuine town PR claim to fall back on, wouldn't your first instinct if your gambit is busted be to claim

that

role?

I went to Superhero Mafia (and I find it frightening that the entire game was only 57 pages long) and the Neighborhood QT we were in together to pull quotes from Pappums about Zinger that game. Here is everything I found –

Second, Zinger is entirely wrong about not being told you are roleblocked, no one ever gets told they are roleblocked on this site (AFAIK). He has said nothing about what action he may have taken that, in it's absence, would let him know if he was roleblocked, and until he does it says nothing about diddin.

..

I agree with Reck that the diddin wagon is bad, Zinger, Meransiel, and dana all have bad reasons for being on this wagon.

Hmmm. Bad reasons for being on a wagon is decent scum-hunting?

Either you're being intentionally dense here or you're scum. How good someone's reasons are is irrelevant to whether or not they're scumhunting. Smart people have decent sounding reasoning as any alignment (you in this game being an obvious exception) dumb people have bad reasoning. As we have now explained twice, when Pappums said 'Decent scumhunting' he was talking about the fact that Zinger was making cases, taking stances etc. We have made it clear that he was not saying that Zinger's

arguments

in that game were

good

.

So yes, presenting cases and taking positions is 'decent scumhunting' even if the arguments themselves we disagree with.

Seventhly, as a result of Khan's game of mafia, where Iamausername as scum deliberately lied in such a way to make it look like a town gambit in order to gain towncred, Fonzhead is incredibly reluctant to suffer any known liar to live.

Hmmm, what happened to Sixthly?

What the fuck? How is this kind of argument even relevant to anything, apart from mudslinging? I think what happened is I thought of another point i wanted to insert, so changed sixthly to seventhly and left a gap, then forgot what it was by the time i'd finished that point.

Give me specifics here? Did Iam claim in a similar manner?

Iam claimed in a massclaim to be a limited-shot cop. I called him on inconsistencies in his claim, and he changed to 'even night cop.' He later admitted that he was planning to switch to 'even night' all along, in order to look like a town player who was gambiting.

Are you seriously suggesting that Zinger’s gambit was made in a way to appear like a Town gambit? If anything Silver’s “He’s a better lynch than me” screams “Get me Cred” posting much more than ANYTHING Zinger has done.

You Policy Stance (which is basically a modified version of Lynch All Liars / Gambiters) is noted.

Since the Fonz head of this hydra is known to be the single most consistent advocate of lynch all liars on the site, we're not sure why this is a revelation. LaL is a good policy. People who lie about their roles are overwhelmingly scum.

But yeah, of course. In the current meta, if you do something antitown in a derpy looking manner and anyone at all attacks you on it, there will always be a significant number of people leaping to your defence and accusing your attacker of being scum. Great way to start a townfight if you can pull it off. It doesn't make a ton of sense - but in our opinions, playing as Zinger has as town doesn't make ANY sense.

If Iam turns up scum, I am

never

letting another liar off the hook, though.

As for the 'I'm a better lynch' thing, that's scummy enough, for atE reasons and other reasons we don't wish to discuss. We don't get that feel off Silver in general though.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Sorry, is your argument that Zinger is a rational player? Also seriously, what part of 'Leading wagon' did you not understand?

No, my argument is that Zinger is a self-admitted DERP who made a stupid move (regardless of his alignment) and you seem to be attributing ONLY scum motivation to it. And that I don't lynch uncounter-claimed Town PRs in Large Games Day 1.

If he's a derp, he's a derp. That's not an argument for him being town. We're trying to point out that it requires at least as much derp to do it as scum as it does as town.

I laugh at the second line. You posted the following later in your response –

You can’t be ‘outraged’ about mudslinging when you actively do it yourself. Nice double standard you have going there guys.

We didn't say we were outraged. Also, the accusation that we are mudslinging ourself is simply not true.

No, that isn't what we said. We said he already had four of those votes when he first hinted he might not be town. That's clearly what 'He had four votes... when he first hinted he might not be town' means.

No, that’s not what you said. I’ve requoted your exact words and bolded the part where you directly say he acquired two of those votes AFTER hinting at anti-Town.[/quote]

No, that is exactly what we said. "He had four votes, was tied for the lead, and two of those votes had accrued pretty quickly when he first hinted he might not be town." When he first hinted he might not be town, he had four votes, was tied for the lead, and two of those votes had built up quickly.

You can’t double back on that. It is clear as day what you originally said.

Oh, it's incredibly clear, but it's clear that it's not what you are saying it is.

I'm confused. Why would town even hint they were not town? It's at least as stupid for town as it is for scum.

For a dumb-ass gambit. I see Fate derp it up directly claiming scum as Town all the time. It’s stupid as hell but it happens.

Right, so if a town player could derp it up, why couldn't a scum?

1) You're assuming he knew it would result in a massive wagon. If he knew it was going to result in a massive wagon, I don't think he does it as any alignment. Clearly, he must have thought that claiming third party would defuse some of the pressure on him.

And you are saying that active lurking would get him a massive wagon when this game is rife with lurkers and active lurkers. I’m sorry, but I’ll stand by my belief that it’s so vastly ludicrous a play to gambit as he did. And once again, he only really got momentum of votes once he hinted / claimed to be Not Town.

No, we didn't say that at all. Yet another MoI misrepresentation. We're saying that he was starting to feel the heat, and claimed third party in the hope that some of the heat would dissipate. The fact is, of the active lurkers, he was in the spotlight at that point.

Not nearly the HUUUUGGGGE stretch you are making by saying claiming 3rd party is a viable ‘defense technique’.

The question is not whether it

is

. The question is whether Zinger

thought it was

. If Zinger was not afraid the wagon on him legs, and did not think that claiming third party would take some of the heat out of it, then claiming third party does not have any benefit as

any

alignment. I refuse to believe his thought process was simply 'derp.'

And are you seriously suggesting that Zel1nk’s Vig claim should be taken seriously?

Didn't have any particular indication of being a joke.

3) If you're town in that position (trying to active lurk to look a little scummy) and you start feeling the heat, would it not be better just to start doing a little scumhunting to relieve the pressure?

Of course it would. Are you saying that by making a sub-optimal play he must be scum?

No. As we said, we think it is most likely he is third party. The claim seems too detailed to be entirely invented. That said, we cannot see his actions as the result of any town thought process. There are certain scum thought processes that might lead to it. Hence, most likely third party (and third party liable to be detrimental to town) but an outside chance of scum, pretty much no chance of town.

4) The result of the gambit, if it 'worked' IE didn't result in him getting pushed to death's door, would be allowing him to go on active lurking like a mofo. There is a scum motive for that. There is a third party motive. There is no town motive.

No, that’s stupid. The proper play for scum in that position is just the same as Town … do a little (faked) scum-hunting. The gambit is inordinately stupid and doomed to fail.

I don't think that anyone is disputing that Zinger is stupid. Yes or no: getting a free pass to active lurk is more beneficial to scum than town? Doing genuine scumhunting does not hurt town, but having to fake scumhunting can be detrimental to scum.

Again, in what way is this not true for a town power role? If your motive is to preserve your role so you can help the town at night, doesn't 'Not making yourself a target' seem like the best move there, too? You've not presented ONE reason why it would be UNIQUELY bad for scum to do that gambit that doesn't also apply to town.

Hey, speaking of making putting arguments in people’s mouths. I’ve claimed any of what you are saying above. It’s bad regardless of alignment.

Right, and that's what I said. You've not shown any particular reason to think him town. Liars do not get the benefit of the doubt.

You have not presented one UNIQUELY credible reason why it would be a good move for scum. Seriously your “If it works” argument ignores that it isn’t going to work in almost all situations.

But I am convinced that, if Zinger was SURE it wasn't going to work, then he wouldn't have done it. The only way in which it makes any sense for him to do it is if he thought it might work. Surely that's obvious?

As to suicide being not a good move for Town – why state the obvious?

Because it seemed to us you were trying to push 'If it's stupid, it must be town.' The point is that the gambit is unlikely to work as town or scum. However, if it did work, that would be scum-benefiting. Therefore, since it seems geared to a scummy end, it's not likely to come from town. The thought process that makes most sense is a third party - tried to lurk, got called on it, thought claiming his actual role would

In regards to the bold – Nice ‘insult the others intelligence to throw them off’ scum-tell. Thanks for that. It always makes my day when people have to go to that well.

Your arguments are objectively stupid. I don't expect saying that to 'throw you off' if rational argument won't.

You’ve ‘explained’ that twice. I’ve asked you to actually link / quote / reference posts in that game where you see evidence of scum-hunting. You’ve yet to do so.

Also I notice you dodge completely the rest of the quotes I posted where you DIRECTLY criticize Zinger’s play as bad post game. Nice.

Well, Pappums is V/LA at the moment, but I will go and look. I simply took his word for it, him being town and all. I have no doubt from what my partner has told me that Zinger did scumhunt in that game. Nice use of 'dodge' to smear 'removing the parts that weren't particularly relevant to anything, because the post was long enough.'

This reminds me of Kingdom of Loathing Mafia where someone ran with what was they claimed was Fonz’s “Town Promise” policy that included not gambitting. It was then pointed out that the game in which said player had seen said policy Scum were the number 1 supporters of said policy and used it to win the game.

That's simply untrue. For one, the major pusher of it was, oh, me, and I was nightkilled night one. Secondly, no-one was at any point lynched for failing to abide by the contract. Furc was wagoned because of it, but he townslipped, which made him town in my eyes (the same townslip I thought Zinger dropped). Multiple roles were outed D1 (there were two dead town power roles on day two of a large normal, and another townie had needlessly outed his role), and a townie self-hammered, both of which the contract was designed to prevent. Looking back at the game, pretty much everyone who engaged in the discussion surrounding the contract on either side at the beginning of the game was town.

I'm not going to get into the game theory argument. Suffice to say, no one believes LAL applies to confirmed town.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

On that note, a good mod makes it such that if all the scum claim vanilla in a d1 massclaim, the scum are at the very least not harmed.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Meh, we should have lynched 17 pages ago.

The silver wagon seems to be MOI, and a bunch of low-volume or low-content voters afraid of what an aggressive policy of stamping out antitown and scum-favoring behaviour might mean for them.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Isn't MOI voting you right now?

He is, but it's posturing. He wasn't going to get us lynched today, and moving actually weakened the counterwagon he was supposed to be pushing.

I've watched a fair amount of MLP

Joined : June 25, 2011
Gender:

Male

One of the above quotes is a lie.

^5

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Ah, just the fact you said you were waiting for mod confirmation made me think there was something new.

Banshee > As far as I can tell, a neighbouriser is basically a Mason Recruiter.

A neighborizer is someone who chooses one or more people to talk in a private QT. The alignment of persons in a neighborhood is not confirmed, as is the case with Masons.

Nero you're doing that thing where you ignore the bit at the end that proves that it is out of context, did you not see what I wrote? Go rereading the convo I was having with Zinger at the time.

How do I feel about a Silver lynch? Well my notes are messy, but I believe silver used Hydra dissonance and tunneled on Pine until after I said that he was afk all day during Setal's speed mafia. but that had been over quite some time before I posted that, and it suggests that Silver was using Pine's afk replace out as a scumtell and a pillar for the lynch without actually checking up on if he was doing anything of the sort in other games and to what nature it was.

So I think that Silver is most likely scum. However I don't like how quickly people jump to it, I assume that everyone's logic is the same as mine, but what about Andrew and ZeL1nK? Both have done some suspicious things and no one seems to be considering it much. Town, you can't have tunnel vision you must observe all possibilities and decide which makes the most sense. Once again, I think silver is scum but I want to explore other options so I won't be voting.

This looks like scum that doesnt want to defend their buddy too much while still trying to avoid their lynch, but who also wants to leave open the possibility of bussing.

Junpei, you need to disclose your tracking results. You are not really someone the town trusts, and the whole reason you claimed tracker is because the person you replaced got ran up to L-2. At this point you claiming your tracker results is more to test you than it is for the results themself.

VOTE: silver

Could you explain your reasoning on this vote?

@Zel1nk:

Who did you target for the vig N1?

I'll also second the tracker report request.

Vote: Silver

for now, he's the second on my scumlist.

I have no sense of time, so I didn't do the re-reads on goomba and David I promised, I'll try to do them at some point.

I agree that hiplop needs to explain. Also Leonshade, why are you voting for the second person on your scumlist and not the first?

Pending Junpei's results,

Vote: Chevre

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Why did you track Vezok?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Ok, just got back to this.

Given the state of things righ now, I'd be fine with a Silver lynch, though I want to look into it a bit more before I place my vote.

However, Junpei's reasoning for the track target is flimsy at best. Plus, from what I've heard, Vezok is a regular VI.

@Vezok I know this has been said already, but do you know if Junpei is lying?

Also, I'm waiting on this whole neiborizing thing MoI has going on.

This post says practically nothing at all while seeming to attempt to sound like he is contributing. I dont see the reason behind holding off on voting, its not like silver is in any danger of being lynched, and having your vote down is the pro-town thing to do. Then he regurgitates the thought that Junpei's reasoning for tracking Vezok is poor, adding the token "Vezok's a VI" line. Then he pointlessly asks Vezok for confirmation on whether Junpei is lying, WHICH NUMEROUS PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY DONE and which Vezok is going to do when he comes on anyway ffs. Then he parrots other's "MoI's neighborhood" idea. This is a vacuous garbage post, and izak further strengthens his scumread.

@MoI well, now that you've outed him, I can totally see what you mean. I am still leaning towards silver more, but is there anything in particular that makes Andrew very scummy?

So you "totally see what he means" and yet you still need him to explain what it was that made Andrew scummy?

Pinky and the Brain make good arguments against silver. silver's defense of those points are terrible.

ZELINK MUST POST FASTER. AND IF HE WASNT ROLEBLOCKED I WILL MAKE HIM EAT SHIT

This made me laugh. I can just see Meran forcefeeding Zelink shit.

In all seriousness though, I am really surprised so many people took Zelink's vig claim seriously. I thought it was pretty obvious that he was joking about vigging Zinger because of Zinger's utter faliure as vig in Super Hero Mafia.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

@MOI:

What is your read on Rodion right now?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

ISOing Andrew quickly, he also took shots at Easjo, Junpei and myself, and declared Izak town.. and not one of the declarations seemed to have a coherent reasoning behind it..

Andrew's a known massive VI. Check out the just-finished BBM's Large Werewolves, and marvel at how easy it was to get him lynched based pretty much solely on his playstyle. Bad reasoning would not necessarily make him scum. Though there is a perfectly rational basis for neighborizing scum reads. The question is, does it appear he was trying to scumhunt or not?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

This game... I hate having to wade through page after page of back and forth that is mostly pointless and has no scumhunting whatsoever. People, please try to stay task-oriented and cut out the bullshit if you would.

Rodion is reduced to sarcasm and smilies.

Just lynch him. Look at #1701, not the least little piece of reasoning in it, just a whole bunch of complex mumbo jumbo that means nothing. He's an obvious scumbags.

Town needs to continue to vote for Rodion. ThAd's tells are useless.

You're making yourself look pretty bad, Castle Bravo.

You've answered a "Shotty or Silver?" question with a "yes" (valid answers: "Shotty", "Silver", "both") and you are reducing everything I've done so far to "sarcasm and smilies".

I'll check your other games later to see if you usually behave like a VI. If you don't, scum read.

Would yes bear a close resemblance to "Shotty," "Silver," or "Both," Rodion? Maybe, if you think very, very, very hard you could answer this question.

It's amazing how you can waste paragraph after paragraph talking about what other people are saying, and yet cannot even waste six seconds

thinking

about what other people are saying.


This was Rodion's scumclaim. Town thinks about what other townies are saying.

Scum looks for reasons to discredit people attacking them.

Where is the wagon on Rodion? Why isn't he lynched yet?

Regarding what I bolded, you are the one looking for reasons to discredit Rodion with your "sarcasm and smilies" comment. Rodion is town, and your case against him is based mainly on WIFOM and unwarranted speculation.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Your way, we go into D3 with a lot less information. That's a bad thing. Your way, we're relying too much on the Night game. We have deadlines for a reason, and we're nowhere near ours.

The reason for having a deadline is so that people cant do exactly what you are asking for (keep on blathering up a shitstorm and not getting anything done). Once a town has decided on someone to lynch, they need to lynch that person and move on with the knowledge of the flip. Talking nonstop and for pages and pages is bad for town, as it is unfocused and counter-productive.

Since Chevre flaked out, I will

unvote
Vote: Izak

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

OH NOES IM NOT ON THE BIGGEST WAGON WTFFFFF.

I never said "we should end the day relatively soon" I said we should get a lynch done and keep the game moving, which means no clogging it up with extraneous bullshit. Basically a. pick target b. work to get target lynched c. get flip.

We have been getting some town vibes off of silver recently (mainly gut) and as long as andrew recruits at night he probably cant kill, plus MoI can continue to get information from him and other people can be brought into the discussion.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

In addition to what my partner just said, Izak is the third biggest wagon, and our vote puts him one behind Andrew. It's not like we're going off on a one-man wagon here.