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Post Post #275 (ISO) » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:04 am

Post by mastin2 »

Nice, new page.
GreyICE wrote:
PranaDevil wrote:And here... GreyIce is quite obviously pointing out that meta is shit, and shouldn't be used. Because people who don't really pay attention to meta wont notice things anyway, and likely aren't even worrying about playing the same way every time. However, people who ARE thinking about meta would also be able to change up how they place to match a town meta every time anyway. Thus, following meta leads to mislynching town more often than it leads to lynching scum. Which is a fair point to make. Thus, meta is pointless to follow.

Plus, some people's meta changes based on role. You wouldn't expect someone with a VT role this game to play exactly the same if they have a cop role in the next one. Thus, while they're both town roles, they're different roles entirely. So if you've played with someone for 4 games with them as a VT, and suddenly they're playing differently, you lynch them based on meta, only to find you've just offed the town cop.


Also, it's the worst form of confirmation bias. People read a player, and think 'he's probably scum, lemme check meta.' Then they go read a random town game and a random scum game, and decide that he's doing X and Y, which he did in the scum game, and isn't doing Z which he did in the town game.

Basically, I'm just going to lynch anyone who tries to use meta as their entire argument, or who argues they're town because of meta.
^I want to see more from Pine on this.

GreyICE wrote::roll:

Vote: Pine


As I promised.
^And this.

More than, "wait, what?"

Hiraki wrote:I think you slippo.
Do you think Pine is scum, Hiraki?

Spoiler: Edmund
edmund.angles wrote:Damnit, you are joking, zMuffin. Otherwise it would be too damn scummy.
I'm wondering if anyone can explain how this is a Town-Motivated or Town-Toned post, because I see scum in both of those.

Edmund wrote:I'll join the mastin wagon:
UNVOTE: BowserVOTE: Mastin2
Seventh voter of me, sixth on the wagon at the time. (Bandwagoning.)

Blatant OMGUS.

Abandoning a previous scumread with no foreshadowing.

List goes on.

Mastin is scummy because he doesn't commit to anything concrete.
Pretty much the polar opposite of what I have been doing, sticking hard to my reads.

all he does is to slap up a post and say, "See how scummy it is!".
Strawmanning.

And if he's town, it is no great loss to lose a player that pulls a list out of his ass and then convinces himself it's true.
Policy lynching,
Lack of true scumhunting.

Pappum's 205 adds some more points, as well as elaborating on some of the above. Specifically,
P. Rat wrote:You try to exonerate yourself from responsibility by making it out as though it would not matter if he flips town because supposedly he is a hinderance to town either way. That is a classic scum move, and you are now my top scumread.
^That.

Edmund wrote:I don't see what that has to do with me.
You joined the (leading by one vote) weak wagon which had weak-to-no reasons for the votes. It has
everything
to do with you.

Edmund wrote:I didn't mind the list, since I expected it to be a discussion starter. But Mastin has later claimed to be dead serious.
And you ignore the fact that I've said it's both. Explain to me how they're mutually exclusive, please. Explain to me how I can't do all three of (1:) starting discussion, (2:) getting reactions, and (3:) still be dead-serious.

You can't, because I was (and said as much in-thread) multitasking. ;)

Edmund wrote:That is bull-shit, he hasn't given any reasons. Nor has he questioned anyone.
Doubly false statement, as I have hinted at reasons for anyone paying close attention and reading between the lines. (I'm a master of the subtle. :) ) And I have asked plenty of questions to others--and had done so before that post.

What he does is to get everyone to reconsider a post from a scum position.
1: Not really. I ask people to legitimately give me an answer as to how it could be town. This has multiple purposes, most of which should be obvious.

2: Even if I was, that would be scummy...
...How?

Asking people to see from my viewpoint is very frequently employed in one of the most fundamental tools of a scumhunter:

Building Cases.

It casts suspicion but makes sure he doesn't say anything he has to defend later.
Oh? Then why am I being attacked for it now instead of, oh, say, Day Two or Three? If it truly was something I'd never need to defend later by your logic, it shouldn't have gotten as much suspicion as it has, now, should it have? The read is out there for all to see. There's nothing hidden about the suspicion, nothing which would be invisible.

Mastin is scummy, but I don't pretend like I'm sure Mastin is scum, so in voting I must also consider the mastin-town possibility. Even if he is not scum, he is a hazard.
Yup. Not scumhunting. Policy voting.

Maybe two years ago, I'd accept policy votes like this to be from town. (I WAS worse back then--blatantly a VI.) Nowadays, I've gotten better, and really, there's no excuse for trying.

@Bowser: Damnit, reasons! tell us why you think I'm scummy and the mastin wagon is shit.
This is not the Town Tone way to ask for reasons. This is blatantly the scum way of going through things.

Edmund wrote:@mastin: How could I think it would be easy to get you lynched when I've seen the massive beating Tomie and Hiplop have taken for suggesting the same?
Tomie didn't receive flak for suggesting I was a liability to the town. Hiplop didn't receive flak for suggesting I was a liability to the town. Tomie received flak because of Tomie's effective scumclaim reactions to me. Hiplop recieved flak for the apparent contradiction on his stance.

They're not scum(my) for being on my lynch. They're not under pressure because they thought I was an easy mislynch. They're under pressure for doing scum(my) things which aren't really that related to them being on me.

You, however, are scum, for the multiple reasons I've outlined above.
Tomie wrote:Guess you've got a lot of voting to do, don't you agree?. Anyway, I disagree that using meta is bad.
Though some players *Hi, Pine* need to learn how to use it correctly~
Oh, totally forgot about this.

GreyICE:
What do you think of Tomie's stance on this?
NOW is Tomie more scum than before?

GreyICE wrote:Vote Toonfighter
Who do you feel is more likely to be scum between Toon and Hiraki, Grey?

And, heck. While we're in the process of asking so. many. reads. from. you. Let's go all-out.

Give a full suspect list. Include nulls who have a scum lean or go in-between. (Flip-flops.)


And this is just my warm-up.
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Post Post #276 (ISO) » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:49 am

Post by pappums rat »

Hiraki wrote:
chkflip wrote:
Hiraki wrote:
Vote: Hiplop


Grey, I still have no meta so you're wrong.

Btw. he's scum.

If I'm incorrect and my vote is on town, I'd love to hear your full case on Hiplop then.

Do note that I've only completely taken in up to page five and given the whole thread a quick skim.
ISO Hiplop.

Easy scum there.

I really don't want to explain more.


Why exactly dont you want to explain more? That is usually what people do when they are trying to get someone lynched.

Also, I think chkflip made some good points about Tomie, and I didnt realize he had backed up edmund the way he did. I still think edmund is a better lynch though.

Tomie wrote:There wasn't any sign of reaction-gauging. The only player he has asked to comment on his reads in some way, was me. All the other players were mentioning how stupid it was as it has players on it as town whom had only confirmed. If he were reaction-gauging he could have asked players what they think of his other reads. But no, he's doing zit when it comes to convincing others, he just 'leads' them.


You dont need to ask questions when looking for reactions. In fact, when people look for reactions I think asking questions could actually be detrimental to their objectives when they are using these kinds of methods. I dont think asking people what they thought about his reads would have had any benefit whatsoever. Also, how exactly was mastin "leading" people?
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Post Post #277 (ISO) » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:43 am

Post by chkflip »

Max wrote:
1
Why did you ask this before you read the entire thread? (he explained already)
2
Also why did you vote before you were finsihed reading?

1] Lightweight reaction fishing question.
2] Because that's my top scumread after those five pages; lo an behold, it's still my top scumread after reading the whole game. I know I told you guys I wouldn't lay a vote until I read the whole thread, so I understand your plight, but after I started to read into it the reactions et cetera were enough to give me a strong enough read to vote on it.

What are the two biggest reasons you have a town read on Tomie?

Pappum wrote:Why exactly dont you want to explain more?

Because he's already given what looks like his full case in a couple posts I hadn't quite gotten to yet; otherwise, I'd agree with you here.

And to reverse back a page:

Tomie wrote:His reason being? If it's other than gut, then I don't know what it is. If it's gut, I don't know what to say about it.
My 'I am disappointed~' comments had a reason. Mastin failed to pick it up, so I dropped them.

I'm fairly certain I know his reason behind his vote and strong scum read on you, but my name isn't mastin2 so I don't get the point in you asking me this question.

Having reason for 'derping~' doesn't mean it was a good and non-fluffery thing to do. For shits and giggles though, what was that reason?

Tomie wrote:Your thought on Mastin?
Other than this question (Yes, it's serious as he was first with a suspicion and players are claiming he was trying to lead us out of the RVS), this logic is full of fail. It starts with taking this vote seriously and it ends with the conclusion of it. Wanting to end the RVS is not scummy. Hello? How else can we scumhunt if we stay in the RVS?

I've already given my thought on mastin2, are you not paying attention?

You should pay attention to my use of words, it'll get you pretty far. Note the word 'seems' I'm not stating that the vote is 100% one way or the other. Wanting to end RVS isn't scummy, correct, but wanting to end it page 2? When not everyone has had time to get a proper vote or post in edge wise?
Seems
like a hasty move in my opinion.

Hello. :)

Tomie wrote:There was a reason Mastin got the title 'unabridged'. He would quote lots of posts to take every sentence out of context and comment on it. It's actually a shock he has lots of 'admirers'. Also, have you never seen a policy vote?

If it's a Policy Lynch he's looking for? Then that vote is even worse than I expected. PLs should be saved for posters like andrew94 or Diety Kabuto, not mastin2.

Also, do you always talk down to people or is it just in this game? Add points to your scumminess for garbage rhetorical questioning.

Tomie wrote:Also, what else do you think Hiplop could have responded to?

Derp question is derp. For the sake of answering it, though, I'll ask you to look at the other posts made in the same time frame as hiplop's posting. Duh?

Tomie wrote:When an opinion is posted, it's not fluff. Learn your definition.

This is fluff. And still talking down to somebody like you know them. Cracka, please.

Tomie wrote:Seems
Muffin
first got competition from Toon and now also from
Chk
. Perhaps, he even went to fourth spot...

ITT anyone against Tomie is scum. Toon is Tomie's buss to look town.

I've got another ten or eleven links from previous pages I'd like to discuss, but didn't want to make this post any longer. So that'll come later.
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Post Post #278 (ISO) » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:24 am

Post by Hiraki »

Paupaumsrat wrote:Why exactly dont you want to explain more? That is usually what people do when they are trying to get someone lynched.
Because he's as obvious as shit. I'll get up a wall tonight since I just drained my wall making abilities on another player in an another ongoing game.
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Post Post #279 (ISO) » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:51 am

Post by mastin2 »

Let's make page twelve "Page Wall". Hiraki and chk, both hurry and get it onto this page, so that we won't have to have three pages in a row of walls!
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Post Post #280 (ISO) » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:39 pm

Post by chkflip »

Mastin, do me a favor and shut them up? Give your
actual
case on Tomie.
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Post Post #281 (ISO) » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:32 pm

Post by Hiraki »

mastin2 wrote:Let's make page twelve "Page Wall". Hiraki and chk, both hurry and get it onto this page, so that we won't have to have three pages in a row of walls!
Image


hiplop wrote:lmao at mastin for making lists for no reason; i'm looking town despite never posting? lol
HERE'S THE PITCH.

hiplop wrote:Dont see town motivation for what hes doing, not at all. Trying to look helpful despite doing shit.
SWIIINNNNGGGGG.

Hiplop then goes onto to say how it's not helpful. Assuming makes an ass out of u and m(e)ing. We'll get there in a second, there's something better we have to look at here.

Neruz wrote:mastin2 ( 6 ) - Toon Fighter, Tomie Uzumaki, Maxous, malpascp, Phoebus,
hiplop
Numero Seis?

Numero scumo. To be fair, the devil's number is 6 and therefore scum are on the wagons as the sixth person, obv.

hiplop wrote:I'm thinking in late game. When you ISO someone, and you see things like that; it will look better, and i think he knows that.

Its really just a RV with some reasoning/weight to it.
But since you've noted it, then he can't use it. So, now there's no scum reasoning behind it unless everyone ignores this post, and doesn't look into mastin as hard as they should.

So um.

What's the point of this vote now? Not sure. Oh wait! There is none.

ouch


hiplop wrote:key word - looks.
Again, Hiplop is assuming here. He doesn't know what anyone will do at the end of the game. While it may look scummy, it doesn't mean that it is scummy in retrospective. Furthermore, by the end of the game, there should be some loose holes that will give Mastin the leeway to be targeted as scum. I doubt that anyone would bring up this as a point in that time. So why should it be a standpoint for a D1 lynch? psst. It shouldn't.

hiplop wrote:Town shouldn't have to try to look good. Thats what he is doing, hes not actually doing anything helpful. Its simply an illusion
I still consider this a slip because of grammar. However, you could make more of it by saying that hiplop has only associated Mastin's first game comments to this point.

For example, hiplop is directly incorrect in the point that Mastin has done anything helpful. This is post #75. Mastin has 18 posts by post 76. If you're saying that each and every single post that Mastin has made is useless then sure, your argument would be correct. However, this is not the case. While Mastin doesn't explain all of his reads, he does explain some. You could make the case that he's with-holding information, but have fun trying to get that lynch done. Because that's all you have at the moment.

hiplop wrote:muffin i dont see what you dont get... I explained it fine earlier, stop distracting town.
Asking questions is in no way, shape, or form distracting town. In fact, you should want to explain a bandwagon as town or scum in order to advocate your lynch. Considering that muffin did not, and still doesn't as shown in #148 which you blatantly ignore, understand it, you're either aware that your BW sucks, or unsure about Mastin. Either way, you must die for it since you haven't retracted the plausibility of Mastinscum.

ISO 9 and 10 are skippies.

Hiplop wrote:lmao what? I've never done that as scum. I type more the angrier/more interested i am, scum or town.

Are you sure you're not just making shit up?
This is a horrible reaction. Even if Paupaums rat is wrong, a simple yes or no should do. I believe that the scumtell of over-explanation works here quite well. In addition, what if he was making it up? Wouldn't that make him suitable to die?

Posts 180-182 show easily fallacies in hiplop's case due to Muffin's questioning. I advise everyone to read that, but I know that if you have even gotten this far in my wall, you must read it because you like to read and stuff. This is because .01% of mafiascum read walls in full context. Hell, I'm not even expecting hiplop to read this much. I want him to, and respond back, but the chances of that are slim to none. I digress.

Here's the new advances in the hiplop case.

Hiplop wrote:and now GI seem a slight bit scummy to me really.

Hiplop wrote:GM has me convinced
You went with someone who you just stated you had a scumread on?

hmmzorz.

Not only that, but Maxous' points have some meaning as well. To note, I don't have a definite stance on TF at the moment. From my initial skims, he looks outrageously scummy, but that in itself looks a bit odd. Tomie is still town btw. guys.

Moving on now.

Mastin wrote:Do you think Pine is scum, Hiraki?
I haven't read much on him yet, but at the moment he's one of my scummies for his little slip thing. I didn't like his explanation of it either. Hiplop is numero uno though, so don't worry.
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Post Post #282 (ISO) » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:53 pm

Post by Neruz »

Notation Votation


Tomie Uzumaki ( 5 ) -
mastin2, Empking, Bowser, Pine, chkflip
mastin2 ( 4 ) -
Tomie Uzumaki, malpascp, Phoebus, edmund.angles
hiplop ( 4 ) -
Maxous, Torqez, Hirarky, Toon Fighter
Toon Fighter ( 3 )-
GreyICE, vezokpiraka, hiplop
paupam's rat ( 1 ) -
warriormode
zMuffinMan ( 1 ) -
somerandomguy
Phoebus ( 1 ) -
zMuffinMan
edmund.angles ( 1 ) -
paupam's rat
Bowser ( 1 ) -
MintKitten

11 Votes to Lynch

Day 1 will end at approximately 10:00AM GMT+0 on the 26th of July.
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Post Post #283 (ISO) » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:38 pm

Post by vezokpiraka »

Oh god. Hiraki is so annoying and scum.

He's pushing hiplop hoping he will kill a scum buddy.

unvote
vote hiraki

We'll kill hiplop tomorrow.
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Post Post #284 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:21 am

Post by GreyICE »

HEY MASTIN

I'M VOTING FOR TOONFIGHTER

WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT OF ASKING ME WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM, HIKARI OR TOONFIGHTER? CAN YOU ADD, MASTIN? 2+2, WHICH DO YOU THINK IS MORE LIKELY?

THESE QUESTIONS MASTIN, THEY'RE USELESS MASTIN. WHAT IS THIS?
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Post Post #285 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:23 am

Post by SomeRandomGuy »

I'll be V/LA for a short while, hope to get it sorted soon, should be able to post once in a while still but i'm having a few issues due to having to leech a very unstable connection for a few days.

Hope to catch up with the game some time tonight though!
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Post Post #286 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:32 am

Post by Maxous »

Heh, vezokpiraka both chainsaw defended Hiplop and gave himself an out to suspect Hiplop later in the same post.
I think I know who is flipping red if Hiplop does.

I will elaborate on Hiplop later and answer one or two questions Chkflip gave me during that.
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Post Post #287 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:27 am

Post by edmund.angles »

@mastin: Saying you are 'subtle' is just the positive spin of 'not commiting to anything concrete'. I see it as a scum trait of dodging responsability.
That said, you do seem to have abandoned that tactic, first with Pine, now me, and that takes the sting out of my grief with you.

about the zMuffinMan thing: I questioned zMuffinMan about a remark that would have been scummy as hell if he had been serious: Him offering hiplop a townread in exchange for a town-read on zMuffin. Then I realized he was not being serious. Since neither Mastin no Hiraki got that I guess it was not obvious.

I think I can find a better place for my vote: UNVOTE: Mastin2
Bowser is still a good lynch-candidate VOTE: Bowser
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Post Post #288 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:44 am

Post by hiplop »

Hiraki, i want to know what papums was thinking, before i vote him. He hasnt explained yet, ill ask again

PAPPUMS RAT; EXPLAIN THAT META NOW
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Post Post #289 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:00 am

Post by mastin2 »

Alright, Grey. You answered the question of Toon/Hiraki well enough. ("They're both so obv-scum it's painful to watch them not get more votes." Is that a fair interpretation?)

That still leaves these unanswered.
mastin2 wrote:
Tomie wrote:Guess you've got a lot of voting to do, don't you agree?. Anyway, I disagree that using meta is bad.
Though some players *Hi, Pine* need to learn how to use it correctly~
GreyICE:
What do you think of Tomie's stance on this?
NOW is Tomie more scum than before?

And, heck. While we're in the process of asking so. many. reads. from. you. Let's go all-out.

Give a full suspect list. Include nulls who have a scum lean or go in-between. (Flip-flops.)
You've given me two names you think are scum. (Hiraki and Toon.) There's likely five scum in this game.

Who else besides those two, do you suspect?

Edmund wrote:I think I can find a better place for my vote: UNVOTE: Mastin2
Bowser is still a good lynch-candidate VOTE: Bowser
"Oh, I guess voting Mastin was a bad idea, and he was right about me abandoning my Bowser read with no foreshadowing at all. Maybe if I go back to Bowser, he won't notice?" (Nope. It's quite blatant.)
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Post Post #290 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:50 am

Post by Bowser »

Nice try, edmundscum. Not working.
It's
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Post Post #291 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:16 am

Post by malpascp »

I will just unvote for now. I'm doing a carefull read on EVERYONE, and I will possiblily only post it on 24 hours or so, unless something happens.
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Post Post #292 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:23 am

Post by Hiraki »

mastin2 wrote:"They're both so obv-scum it's painful to watch them not get more votes." Is that a fair interpretation?
no. It's more like I'm trying to piss the fuck out of Hiraki, knowing he isn't scum.

Edmund needs a check-up.

I'll do that later.
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Post Post #293 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:24 am

Post by GreyICE »

mastin2 wrote:Alright, Grey. You answered the question of Toon/Hiraki well enough. ("They're both so obv-scum it's painful to watch them not get more votes." Is that a fair interpretation?)

NO DUDE

I'M VOTING FOR THE PERSON I THINK IS MOST LIKELY TO BE SCUM.

Want some Meta? Mastin has like, at least five brain cells. HOW THE FUCK DID YOU NOT SEE THIS ANSWER COMING?

mastin2 wrote:You've given me two names you think are scum. (Hiraki and Toon.) There's likely five scum in this game.

Who else besides those two, do you suspect?


No one. I have inside info this is a two man scumteam.

Seriously Mastin, how is this question productive either? When I get more solid scumreads, I'll say them.

This is reeking of asking questions for the sake of asking questions. Mastin, this is worrying me. What are you learning from this exercise, Mastin?
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Post Post #294 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:31 am

Post by Hiraki »

He's asking for information.

He wants to know if you're town or not, FFS.
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Post Post #295 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:58 am

Post by GreyICE »

Hiraki wrote:He's asking for information.

He wants to know if you're town or not, FFS.

Oh.

I'm town.

Where's the staples easy button?

If he's asking me to make up some reads for him so I look townier, nope. Just don't care.
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Post Post #296 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:01 pm

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Hiraki wrote:He wants to know if you're town or not.
^That. There's more to it than just that, though. I'll elaborate when I get the answers I want out of everyone I've asked questions for.
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Post Post #297 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:02 pm

Post by GreyICE »

mastin2 wrote:
Hiraki wrote:He wants to know if you're town or not.
^That. There's more to it than just that, though. I'll elaborate when I get the answers I want out of everyone I've asked questions for.

'kay, well, don't really have time to jump through your hoops.

I'll be not doing that, thx.
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Post Post #298 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:04 pm

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Grey. Don't make me employ the "reversal of my initial reads" on you.
Guess what my initial read on you was?

(Hint: it wasn't a scumread. And you can't reverse null-reads.)
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Post Post #299 (ISO) » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:42 pm

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hiplop wrote:Hiraki, i want to know what papums was thinking, before i vote him. He hasnt explained yet, ill ask again

PAPPUMS RAT; EXPLAIN THAT META NOW


You never asked me to explain shit, you was all like "is you kidding?" and I didnt think that was worth replying to. The game I was thinking about was The original Neruzian Era Mafia, where you were scum and were clearly using much more quotes to bulk up your contributions to the game. Granted, this is a sample size of one game of you as scum, and in retrospect I can see that you did indeed still put out a lot of one-liners, but I thought I would put it out there because I had a town read on you based mainly on that. I still dont see much scum-motivation behind your posts tbh, you just look like oblivious town to me.
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