As in scum like to say they find their buddies scummy while actually getting somebody else lynched.
Lack of explanations was mostly due to not having enough gametime.
I hammered at 4:15 AM so it's not like I was going to be doing deep casemaking that evening.
I've stopped lurking all my games since then due to having more time.
Ivan wrote:
You seem rather eager to die subgenius.
You seem rather eager to try and skate by without posting content Ivan.
Tommy wrote:
Beck, subgenius and ICEninja seem to be agreed that the way forward is to pick a lurker and pressure them with votes until they contribute. I see the attraction, though I'm worried that that kind of vote can turn into a full-blooded killer vote without the voter really stopping to consider whether they're targeting the scummiest player.
If you read just before my vote post, I happen to simultaneously be voting for a lurker and the scummiest player in the game. It's quite convenient that one of our biggest lurkers happens to also be incredibly scummy!
A lot of the recent posts are swaying me to consider a jily vote instead, however. I'm taking it under consideration, particularly after i check for myself that jily declared V/LA in this game but is actively posting in others. That is something that town simply does not do.
Subgenius wrote:You were accepting that not voting was anti-town, since not voting was the only thing anyone else had specifically described as anti-town.
Now you're trying to claim that you meant not pressuring or questioning was what was anti-town about Acro's behavior, but I see absolutely nothing that would make me believe that this was actually what you had in mind when you agreed that Acro was being anti-town.
Now, these contradictions on their own aren't important, but these inconsistencies lead me to think that you were going out of your way to defend Acro for an unknown reason rather than following a rational train of thought that lead to the conclusion that Acro should not be subjected to pressure. I'm having trouble thinking of a town motivation for defending another so early in the game without a clear reason, so I'm forced to conclude that you're scum.
This post doesn't make any sense. Your premise is fine, but your conclusion is strange. Essentially you're saying that SleepyKrew has scum motivation to defend Achro, so either scum Sleepykrew is buddying town achro, or scum SleepyKrew is defending his partner. Achro seems like an unlikely townie to be buddied, especially if SleepyKrew thinks he's a VI. On top of that, calling him a VI defeats the buddying as no one particularly likes being called stupid. And if he's right and achro really is a VI, then he won't be a very useful pawn anyway.
Therefore we should assume that SleepyKrew is not scum buddying a townie. That means that you assume he is scum defending his scumbuddy. If that is the case, then Achro must be scum for this to hold true. Therefore, if you actually place store in this you should be trying to lynch achro first.
Subgenius wrote:Nothing is wrong with defending a VI town read from being lynched, but that is in no way what Sleepy was doing.
First, Acro was not anywhere near a lynch, he was simply under a small amount of pressure.
Second, I haven't seen Sleepy argue anywhere that he actually has a town read on Acro. He was only pointing out Acro's meta as a VI, which is utterly irrelevant to his alignment in this game.
I'm changing my vote. There's something fishy going on with Sleepy and Acro, and Sleepy is the far fishier of the two.
unvote
vote: Sleepy
This is where you vote Sleepykrew, and it implies the same thing. Your argument requires achro to be scum therefore you should be voting achro if you actually believe what you're saying. You aren't, therefore you don't.
unvote, vote: Subgenius.
First of all, this was never answered satisfactorily. We were simply told that it was too far in the past to be of much use. On Day 1 that seems like pretty thin reasoning.
Subgenius wrote:I agree with ICEninja that post 49 is telling, but I get a different read from it.
There's no debating that Yank is being overly defensive here, which I've seen cited more than once as a scum tell, but I find myself reading it as a newbie tell. He reminds me of myself in my first game after a long hiatus, in which I was subjected to some early pressure. GreyICE (of GreyMarble) was in that game, and might recall it. Like Yank, I became a bit hysterical and assumed my accusers were scum. As it turned out, they weren't scum, and neither was I.
At the moment, I'm sensing that Yank is an inexperienced and frazzled townie rather than a flailing scum.
This post is very interesting to me. This looks very strongly like scum trying to simulate a townie slowly changing their mind. Obviously, Subgenius already knew that Yank was going to flip town, so he couldn't be "YARG THIS BOY IS SCUMZ!!" "Looks like a newbie tell," is very convenient and very ridiculous. YankCane is NOT a newbie and a genuine townie would be suspicious that he isn't playing like a veteran townie as expected, rather than taking the irregularity as a town tell. The fact that YankCane was playing like a newbie should have been a scum tell unless he was trying to manufacture town tells.
Subgenius wrote:No, my vote is still on Beck because I haven't decided on a better place to put it at the moment.
This doesn't make any sense either. Beck was his random vote and two seconds ago he said Yank was flailing. Even with the supposed town tell, flailing seems like a much better basis for a vote than his RVS vote.
Thank you for attempting to back up at least one of your suspicions.
Ivan wrote:First of all, this was never answered satisfactorily. We were simply told that it was too far in the past to be of much use. On Day 1 that seems like pretty thin reasoning.
I did respond to this accusation in post 224. If you didn't think my answer was satisfactory, maybe you should have mentioned it before now. Also, nowhere in my response did I attempt to dismiss your accusation by simply saying it was too far in the past. What are you even referring to with this 'in the past' business? What exactly was unsatisfactory about my answer? Why is this the first we're hearing about it, and why haven't you been maintaining your pressure on me if this issue is still unresolved as far as you're concerned?
Ivan wrote:This post is very interesting to me. This looks very strongly like scum trying to simulate a townie slowly changing their mind. Obviously, Subgenius already knew that Yank was going to flip town, so he couldn't be "YARG THIS BOY IS SCUMZ!!" "Looks like a newbie tell," is very convenient and very ridiculous. YankCane is NOT a newbie and a genuine townie would be suspicious that he isn't playing like a veteran townie as expected, rather than taking the irregularity as a town tell. The fact that YankCane was playing like a newbie should have been a scum tell unless he was trying to manufacture town tells.
First of all, I'm not sure when scum stopped drumming up phony cases on town, so I don't really understand why you're trying to claim that dropping a case on a now confirmed town is scum. Secondly, I already pushed hard on Acro, which turned out to be a bad lynch, so if my reluctance on the Yank case is a scum tell, then it seems my enthusiasm for the Acro case would be a town tell if I'm understanding you correctly. Thirdly, I have no idea how much experience Yank had. I did no meta research on him, and his behavior truly did look like a jumpy newbie to me.
Ivan wrote:This doesn't make any sense either. Beck was his random vote and two seconds ago he said Yank was flailing. Even with the supposed town tell, flailing seems like a much better basis for a vote than his RVS vote.
So, I should have voted for the guy I had said I had a town read for?
Alright Ivan, good job making it past page 3. What you've posted is decent, I guess, so I won't smack your case here, but you're really going to need to add some fresher stuff than that to really get my attention, especially considering we have so many scummy lurkers who seem intent to let the game slide by.
In looking at jily's current play, this is the only game she declared V/LA in. She hasn't posted very much in her other games, but if she does engage in other games before Monday I'm going to essentially assume she lied, and accept that as a scum admission (meaning she's purposefully avoiding this game when being suspected).
Beck wrote:
It better be a doozy
This. Freaking lurkers, man. I'm going to end up replacing out of this game because it's just going to die if people don't start posting.
Sup. I'm Lat, nice to meet you. Anyway. I'm finished with my first hyper read through (Will be reading through again), and I'll have arguments and all that jazz sorted out this afternoon. (Debating whether or not to post my raw notes, I probably will)
Noted for reference. May come back this later, but regardless it helps ME see.
***
Here are my raw notes, in all of its naked glory. Apologies for the horrible organization. You're better off just reading the stuff in the boxes. I'll get something more coherent later today.
#9 (Captain Spoon): +Scum
#13 (subgenus): subgenus is probably obvious town.
#14 (Beck): Huh. Incog theory. Neat.
#15 (Beck): +Town Response. I have no idea why however.
#16 (blinker): +Scum/ I haz serious suspicion BUT IT TOO DANGERIOUSY FOR SERIOUS VOTES.
#18 (Ivan): +Town. At first I was pissed that he ignored blinker. But then I realized Yank was ridiculous. Pretty Neat post.
#20 (Yank): Scum reaction. He's too passive aggressive. Why isn't he lynched? (<----- This is the part where I looked at the 1st post then face palm'ed myself. DISREGARD IVAN PRAISE.) >.>
…
#21 (Captain Spoon): Yeah. I kinda want to know who Ivan's hydra heads are too.
#24 (Captain Spoon): +Town.
#50: (IceNinja) Mhm. Time to start skimming. Screw it. Gonna go to the last post and work backwards. "Town also rarely needs to state that they're town, particularly this early. Another thing I do subconsciously as scum."
+Scum right here. You do that as town as well.
<Btw Pg3 made my eyes bleed. Please dear god let's find a nice medium between wall-o-texts and sentence fragments>
#53: (subgenus) Over defensiveness is not a scum tell. Come on. / WoahKay, misread this post nvm
#84 (Sleepy): Please stop experimenting. <Reads Post #92. Horray!>
<Pg6 is kinda demotivating. Trying to hard core skim. Anyway. From a rough outline I can tell nothing's going to happen within 3 pages. Lets see if I'm right.>
<But first. >.> Time to spice up the time line.> <Skips to end.>
#646 (blinker): Yeah. He's still scum.
#638 (blinker): I wish I was a day vig. Seriously.
#635: (Tommy): Oh Gods. It's bad when a game becomes lurker hunting. Very Bad. Me thinks I can help change this. Hopefully.
#625: (Llamarble): This seems reasonable.
<Meh. Not in a note taking mode. I'm just going to cheat and hyper skim.>
<Back to hyper skimming>
Random note. Ice seems town to me. This has never happened to me before. Neat. (Pg 18/19)
<Woah-Kay. Read Day 1 backwards. Nothing new. blinker's still scum. Feels like the same people kept getting picked on. Hope I find something more coherent when I sleep on this. I'm disappointed in the lack of town reads I have.>
<Pg 556> <I wish Grey didn't replace out. I like him. He's cool. I WANT to believe that grey vs Ice is town on town, but both make okay arguments. Anyway tbh that isn't too important right now, would rather they stop and focus and blinker.>
<557> <I have no idea why I think Beck is town, but I'm pretty okay with that>
<563> <Conversations like this make me sad. Lets stop.>
#564 (Captain Spoon): +Town. This is good posting. Although his theories aren't necessarily the best reasoning, dispute agreeing with his conclusion, this feels like pro-town motivation. Neat.
#587 (Tommy): Pretty much this whole time I'd had a weak town read on Tommy but I have no idea WHY. I wish he'd post more. Really, please do.
<Kay. Finished my Hyper Skim. blinker's obv scum. Jil's also probs scum.
To Do
-Explain why blinker is scum (Concisely)
-Reread Ice/Llama/Ivan
-Try to get those limbo reads out of limbo
***Attempted Reread. (lulz)
#105 (sub): wut. Keeping your vote on someone you don't think is town but a frazzled newbie?
<Pg 5 is piss poor arguments about proper game play>
#129 & #131: >.>? Am I supposed to take these two posts seriously? (CC) Noted for reference.
<Pg 9: Bleh. Too many semantic arguments. Getting bored with the he said she said business. In general I agree with Ivan's argument regarding the Sleepy business.>
<Pg 15. Alright. Same Arguments over and over. The Mason stuff is pretty neat however. PS, I have no idea why anyone past this point would even think about lynching Yank>
I'm starting to feel like Ivan's being ignored. EVERYONE ignores his suspicion of Tommy, sub is mentioned a bit, but it turns into an irritating debate, and blinker was ignored as well.
<#518: This is a pretty good list.>
<#536: Yeah. Tommy's obi scum. Sheeping the latter part of this. Disagree with his Ice sentiments though>
<#543: The blinker town read is wrong>
<WoahKay. Read in full. Didn't really gain much regardless.>
Not a bad first post, looking forward to more fleshed out arguments. I am curious where you're getting town reads out of Ivan's play.
PS. If CS and Da Koolzy get replaced out, can we start over with a new RVS stage? It looks like we might end up with nearly half our players replaced today. I've never played in a game like this. It's ridiculous.
Yay Lateralus!
Also reacted the same as I did to some early game stuff, so +town to what was already a townread.
I'll reread Blinker tonight but so far he's seemed town to me.
I'm dissapointed CC hasn't posted. I told him I was V/La
K, I still think Kool and Jily are scum
Blinker and Ivan are mislynch fodder
and I liked magic's last post
I haven't continued with my PofE case mainly because I think I've overcommitted in my games and haven't had much time. that and It's so easy to put off logging in as a hydra. :/
I expect my other head will finish the PofE. I'm just glad I got beck and Ivan out of the way
with Jily and kool likely scum I think Tommy could only be the last one since I have town reads on everyone else
since Jilly's wagon looks most feasible right now and kool is being replaced(?)
So Magic, post 16 of the game, that post is how you came to the conclusion Im scum. Your blowing that post out of proportion. What i was referring to in that post i did find odd, i had some suspicion, your acting like it was huge suspicion, it was my first post, it was rvs thats why i didnt want to vote yet, there wasnt enough suspicion to warrent a vote. He could of been just joking so i didnt want to blow it out of proportion I just found it a bit odd. Whats scummy about that, half of the players hadnt even posted yet. It was so early, if i had of kept banging on that point and stuck a serious vote then, that would of been scummy.
Also like Spoons said, is Da Kool being replaced? as, if he is then i'll move ahead with the Jily vote since i was up for both.
Well Well Well. No. Don't act like it was just one post.
A slightly more coherent post. My Sincerest apologies for block quoting this however.
Vote: Ivan the Pleasant his photo looks scummy
I agree that Beck's joke did seem odd, as if you were town you wouldn’t want to joke about being scum as it directs suspicious straight to you and things like that can have people straight onto you? However, whilst I have some suspicion over Beck's joke, I think we should be precautious with voting as it’s a little earlier.
Serious suspicion is clearly less important than RVS voting for blinker. He's worried about voting but he does it anyway just for the sake of participating? <--- Scum blending in.
Also about Captains statement about no-voting is anti-town, I disagree as I don't necessarily agree that not voting is anti-town, you can still help the town by pushing and pressuring other players without votes. Other people have votes on other players and then someone else can develop on that without a vote. Also unnecessary votes can easily start and bandwagon over something little and therefore could go against town.
Translation. Hello. I don't like voting, because it makes me accountable for my actions. I like to silently echo others sentiments. Sure, I've listed PLENTY of reasonable things you can do in absence of voting, but I don't really do them. No, what I want to do is wait for when it's SAFE to vote.
PS. Being over cautious is also a scum tell.
Ivan: Although, it is useful to vote and pressure it is not essential to vote to pressure players there’s other ways. Acronach’s analogy of the gun fight and voting doesn’t fall apart, there’s other ways to pressure players and scumhunt without placing a vote on someone, and about the difference between this game and a gun fight, even though the sides haven’t been declared then being careful with your vote is valid as it represents taking random shots, your unaware who town or scum is so then your randomly taking shots and it could go against the town, so it can be better to carefully vote and pressure players another way.
Useless (Incorrect) game theory. More over caution. Seriously, his alternative is the mysterious "other ways"
-Fuck. We're getting to the 200 page mark and the only thing I know about him as that he's not leaning scum on Beck, and that he made a useless vote.
Post Four gives me a head ache to read so here's a link. Essentialy, the most concrete thing he says is "I'm leaning scum on Sleepy." coupled with a bit of passive aggression. And some more game theory about not voting.
--My problem is nothing here is concrete. He says it's weird that they'd be defending each other and putting themselves out so much if they're scum. Tiss an excuse to piss about.
Post (Iso) 5 surprises me. This actually seem like a legitimate attempt to scum hunt Sleepy.
ICE: I can still help find scum without putting down a vote. It's not waiting for someone else to find it, it’s simply I felt i wasnt ready to put down a vote on sleepy, there wasn’t enough suspicion and if Sleepy continues to do suspicious stuff then I’ll stick a vote down.
Woah Kay. Translation, I'm waiting for more people to hop on so it's ok for me to bandwagon.
Iso #7: Some Mason stuff.
Iso #8: Wee let lurkers live, doing nothing is fun! Then some stuff about whether Spoon wants to lynch him or not.
Iso #9: Kay. He finally gets the balls to vote. Took him nearly 500 posts however. Anyway, this is a horribly opportunistic vote. Refer back to the bit I mentioned "I want to vote when it's safe to bandwagon".
Iso #12: More passive aggression towards being called scum by Ivan.
Iso #13: Suspicion of Grey. This is just going after an easy target. iirc all his suspects at this point consist of Sleepy/Acron/Llamarble. The former two were prime time suspects and the latter is suspected for his hammer.
Iso #16: More passive aggression. Come on.
Iso #18: Oh gods more over caution. Fun Fact. In this post he claims that everyone should pressure Kool because they've done little. But he doesn't do so in this post. Or his next posts. Weee. Btw. Interaction with Ivan is weird as hell.
Lets put this into perspective. Ivan wants to KILL blinker. Then blinker says,
Well monsieur, if you shall allow, I have, erm, a word of advice, I shall like to deliver to you.
"Proceeds to lecture Ivan about being organized"
The fuck? blinker's desperate to avoid conflict with Ivan.
Iso #19: Wee lurker lynch. Easy lynch. Yay!
----So, let me try to sum this up.
We've got the horrible obsession with not voting, because he's scum who doesn't know WHEN to vote. He's blatantly just here to blend in (See 1st post/later suspicions), and his choice of scum suspects is opportunistic. (See voting/timing of when he voices his opinions) Then we've got the passive aggression, (early interactions with sleepy and Ivan) trying not be accountable ect (lack of voting till the time is right).
So. To anyone who disagrees, I would like concrete reasons as to why blinker isn't the villain I say he is.
