Mini 1195: The Beehive Mystery (GAME OVER)

[Magic Trainer]

It's their sig "Hydra of The Kool and Dazzy"

[Beck]

lol, I have the sigs disabled.

Only reason I saw jilly's was cause it's visible when you click their name

[Tommy]

Gut is bothering me, so here's what I propose. We run up Koolzzy and Jil both to L-1.

Then at that point I'd like either BLINKER or Tommy to hammer. This way, we have to legitimate wagons to get SOMETHING out of regardless of what Jil flips.

If we follow your plan, what will we learn if jilynne flips town? And what will we learn if she flips scum?

[rblinker123]

Magic, Im willing to hammer, most likely on Jily. I'll go along with your plan, however, the way you put it is like you want me or Tommy to hammer then however, if however is hammered is town, your guna blame us and start a wagon. The hammer will most likely come in about 2 hours, i'll be back then.

[Magic Trainer]

I have no idea, considering I'd need both flips.

Day 2 has been pretty much. "Woo, Acro flipped town. Sleepy's kinda scummy. Let's kill him... Jill is also useless. Lets kill her."

Then some minor skirmishes. What I'm thinking is, if we two decent wagons we can compare and contrast them PLUS the whole process is more useful than "Yo Jil, stop complaining about being a VT, girlfriend, and post more."

Edit: WoahKay blinker. No, that's wrong.

[rblinker123]

Lol, yeah magic, i took what you said the wrong way lol, i thought you meant to wagons following the lynch on me and Tommy.

Also, im not going anywhere so the hammer can come down whenever, I think maybe we should we wait for people to respond she whats final or just go with it?

[Magic Trainer]

Wait for people to respond, it shouldn't take too long. Btw, what's your read on Koolzzy & Tommy, blinker?

Subgenius, what do you think? Am I crazy?

[Tommy]

What I'm thinking is, if we two decent wagons we can compare and contrast them

I dare say that's true, but if we have two artificial wagons orchestrated by you, we can't do a lot with them. I'd prefer a Koolzzy or jilynne lynch to no lynch, but I'd rather see Llamarble or Ivan swing.

[Magic Trainer]

Not artificial, Jil's already on the noose and Koolzzy's the second contender.

Besides Ivan and Llamarble are both probably town. Why do you suspect them again?

[Tommy]

I suspect Llamarble because of his eagerness to hammer someone he'd announced a town read on, and because he's been avoiding questions. I suspect Ivan because he's been accusing people and then refusing to justify his accusations.

[Llamarble]

Greymarble has one silly post. Lurker! Possibly trying to avoid attention, not hard in a game of 13. Likely 3rd party.

I didn't like this AT ALL, but he has towntells too.
I have definitely done bombardment of will-catch-up posts as town, so that doesn't bother me.
Ice might be scum.
Tommy is probably scum with sleepy, particularly considering the 'Acro + SK are probably the same alignment let's lynch Acro' stuff D1.
Actually I just looked at some Townmeta and some things that bothered me were apparently playstylish.
Rereading Rblinker assuming scum makes some sense too. I'll look more deeply at that tonight.

[Magic Trainer]

Llama, did you notice something neat about Tommy's interactions with me? Plus his reaction to my blinker case.

I gotta know if I'm on to something.

(Oh btw neither Koolzzy or Jil will actually attempt to post anything worth while unless they're at L-1. This is also an important reason why BOTH of them need to put at L-1)

[rblinker123]

Magic: My thoughs on Da Koolzy would be that, im leaning more scum. They were never really into Yanks mason claim, they didnt give much thought that it could of been true which seems more scum than town, if someone roleclaims then town need to think about it and be careful as you dont want to be mislynching a town power role it wont help us. They never really seem to give much thought that it could be true instead voted to still lynch Yank. Also, although i know i havent been the most active player in the game, Da Kools have been quite inactive, and given the fact that their a hydra you'd expect more content from them saying as its two people playing. I think there more avoiding content and questions and staying under the radar than generally being away from the game. However, although i have them leaning scum, now looking back Da Koolz wasnt in Yanks list of definatly not mason, i know it doesnt clear them as being scum or means there mason, but i think we should be careful incase they are mason, and so instead this round go with Jilys lynch.

As from Tommy, i dont really have anything on him, I wouldnt really say he has raised any suspicion for me and so Im leaning more town/null.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

I wouldn't cry over either of those lynches.

[subgenius]

Subgenius, what do you think? Am I crazy?

I have to admit, I'm not a huge fan of this plan. As I said in an earlier post, I'd prefer to avoid lynching a lurker simply because we can't come up with another suspect. I'm all for putting serious pressure on Jilynne and Dakoolzy, but primarily in the hopes that they'll contribute. If they don't, I'm fine with lynching either one. My problem with the plan is that you seem to be making the lynch of a lurker a forgone conclusion for today, and I'm not sure that's the best plan. You seem to be confident that the wagons that form will be informative, but I'm not so sure. I can think of scenarios where such information would be useful, but I'm not sure any of them are consistent with our actual situation. Therefor, I'm reluctant to blindly follow along without there being more traditional scum hunting methods going on as well. I'm afraid we'll enter Day 3 (which will likely be LYLO if we mislynch) with a serious lack of information if we follow your plan and it doesn't pan out like you expect. I don't think either Jilynne or Dakoolzy are bad lynches necessarily (I'm quite suspicious of both of them), but I'd rather not head straight for a lurker lynch when there's still a lot of time before the deadline.

Also, I still would like to hear how Ivan ended up on your town list. In my opinion he has contributed very little, especially during the current day. He hasn't exhibited much interest in making cases, and when he finally did make a case, it was largely a rehash of one of his cases from yesterday which he never followed up on despite claiming the response to the case was inadequate, and now he still isn't following up on his case. The whole thing seems phony to me. I'm all for pressuring lurkers, but I think Ivan is one of the scummiest people that has actually been posting anything.

[Klazam]

Day Two: Vote Count Five

Da Koolzzy (2)- ICEninja, Magic Trainer,
Subgenius (1)- Ivan the Pleasant,
Jilynne1991 (4)- Beck, Subgenius, Llamarble, Captain Spoon,
Ivan the Pleasant (1)- Tommy,

Not voting: (4) – Da Koolzzy, rblinker123, jilynne1991,

With 11 alive, it’s 6 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2011-07-19 17:00:00). (5 PM EST on July 19.)

Da Koolzzy has not picked up his prod. Seeking a replacement.

[Llamarble]

'tis not a matter of lynching lurkers for being lurky, but rather of lynching them for being scummy.
Jil is scummy. Her being a confirmed nonmason and a lurker are bonuses, but definitely of secondary importance.

[rblinker123]

Well since, i had already said my vote was going on Jily out of her and Koolzzy, and now that Koolzzy being replaced, im going forward with my vote on Jily. This pushes her to L-1

VOTE:Jilynne1991

[subgenius]

'tis not a matter of lynching lurkers for being lurky, but rather of lynching them for being scummy.
Jil is scummy. Her being a confirmed nonmason and a lurker are bonuses, but definitely of secondary importance.

I fully agree that Jil is scummy, but I'd prefer that we not settle on lynching a player that seems unlikely to respond when we have nearly a week left before deadline and we still have the opportunity to pressure scummy players who are unlikely to respond. My primary concern is that if we lynch Jil or Dakoolzy, and they're not scum, we won't have an awful lot to show for this day. I think it's unwise to put all of our eggs in the scummy lurker hunting basket.

Also, since it looks like Da Koolzy is being replaced, I think it would be wise to wait to see what his replacement has to say.

In the meantime,

unvote

vote: Ivan

The case is that despite posting a fair amount, I don't feel that he has developed any authentic scum reads, and if he has, he doesn't seem terribly interested in making them stick. His most fully developed case is the one against me, which is all based on old info. He first presented it in D1, and never responded to my defense. Then today, when he was again asked to present a case, he more or less reposted his original case and claimed that my response was not satisfactory. If this was the case, and if he really thought I was scum, I would expect him to both continue pressuring me and point out my failures in an attempt to get others to lynch me. He did neither, which leads me to believe he neither believes in his case nor wishes to lynch scum. Other than this, I find his sarcastic attitude quite anti-town, though not necessarily scummy.

Last point is that after reading this thread he posted in Mafia Discussion, which I mostly agree with, I don't see how he implemented his town mindset into day 1 play. Particularly:

What I mean by "town must look town" is that you must reveal what your role is simply by being truthful. You aren't trying to "look town" as much as you are trying to share your true feelings with the town in a way that is helpful and productive. This means you want to play honestly, openly, and amicably

Granted, Ivan is a hydra, and not all of the play has been archaebob's, but I find that a lot of Ivan's play has been the opposite of honest, open, amicable, helpful, and productive. The sarcasm, the reluctance to post cases, the inability to form a coherent opinion with his other head, none of these are consistent with what he, himself, has said a town player should be doing, which leads me to think that he is, in fact, scum.

If we get to the deadline, and no other cases are solidifying, I'll be happy to hammer Jily, but as it stands, I feel like the town is settling for the default lynch, which is ok as long as we do it while also simultaneously using our limited time trying to uncover and develop more reads, but I do not want to lynch a lurker with a week left before the deadline without digging around a bit more

[subgenius]

Well since, i had already said my vote was going on Jily out of her and Koolzzy, and now that Koolzzy being replaced, im going forward with my vote on Jily. This pushes her to L-1

VOTE:Jilynne1991

How does Koolzzy being replaced affect your decision to finally vote Jily?

[Beck]

Blinker's vote totally makes me take my mason vibe from him away

[Beck]

2ndly, i am now leaning scum on subsy

[rblinker123]

Sub: It didnt really change much as, i had previously said it would likely be Jily I vote out of her and Koolzzy, But, it was out of Jily or Koolzzy, with Koolzzy being replaced then i voted Jily, were not really guna get a lynch on someone being replaced anyway.

[subgenius]

2ndly, i am now leaning scum on subsy

Now is the part where you make a case. I realize that hopping off the Jily wagon will raise some eyebrows, but even though I think she's scummy, I'm nowhere near sure enough to lynch her without trying to stir up more leads for D3. The problem is that I think most of the evidence against her is from Sleepy's D1 actions. She has done nothing to redeem her player slot, and she's hardcore lurking, but I feel like we're skipping the information gathering stage of D2 if we go ahead and lynch someone based on D1 info without first trying to generate more information. Jily is fully deserving of a lynch, but we're cheating ourselves if we do it right this minute. I know this looks like I'm defending her, but I'm just trying to suggest the course of action I think is most beneficial for town.

were not really guna get a lynch on someone being replaced anyway.

I don't agree with this, we've practically settled on Jily within a week of her replacing in, why couldn't we do it with Koolzzy? Also, why wouldn't you want to at least hear what the replacement has to say before the end of the day, especially if you really thought the slot is scum? That kind of information could be quite valuable, even if it doesn't lead to a lynch today.

[rblinker123]

Subs, yeah i agree with you lol, thats what i meant, i would want to hear from the replacement before lynching them. For some reason, the fact thats there still 6 days left and there would be time to hear from the replacement just didnt register lol. I just assumed that the hammer would probably be down by the time a replacements in.