Mini 1202 Smalltown Mafia (Game Over!)

[Beck]

Post 82, you call VP "your buddy"

That looks like blatant buddying given I don't know your outside history

[Beck]

You and I disagree with each other, nothing is going to change my mind or yours
So we just move on

[Juls]

Yes. VP is literally my "buddy", as in someone I consider a "friend" on this site.

Either lynch me or lynch Beck because both of us in this game is NOT going to work. He thinks I am scum, I think he is scum. If we end up being town-on-town it's going to be a huge escape route for scum.

Lynch me or lynch him today, please

[Beck]

I would be okay with your lynch, but I much prefer Hiplop's, his flying under the radar, lack of scum hunting, changing his reasons for his vote, and hypocrisy is more than enough reasons to say he is scum.

[VP Baltar]

VP, these posts since you posted to "be succinct" have hardly been walls. It looks like you just don't want to read what they say.

I know, I'm just being snotty because I really not enthralled with this back and forth you and beck are having at the moment. A lot of it seems kind of pointless from what I've read, but I feel obligated to look at it closely just as I would anything else in this game and that doesn't really excite me very much. I'll try to stop complaining.

[Panacea]

UNVOTE: Beck, because I'm not confident enough to think he's the best lynch anymore.

The Juls/Beck thing is... obnoxiously hard to put into a "scum" or "town" box. Beck's questions seem a lot more genuine to me now, I guess because he's knee-deep in Julstuff. To that end, Juls's argument seems town on the surface, but I can't decide if the ultimatum is scummy or just anti-town, and it feels like a flair for the dramatic.

Either way, I do agree that this debate, if town/town, is eclipsing scum. No, I'm not buddying you, Juls, you just said it first.

On the other hand, has anyone ever seen a bus to this degree of enthusiasm?

Anyway, general reflections. Will comb through the walls when I get off tonight, and am with a computer.

[jasonT1981]

9th Vote Count of Day 1:

Hiplop - 3 (Beck, charter, pappums rat)
Beck - 1 ( Juls)
Panacea - 1 (Phoebus)
pammums rat - 1 ( Budja)
Charter - 1 (Hiplop)
Budja 1 (VPBaltar)

Not voting (Panacea)

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch.

Day One will end no later than Monday July 25th at 6:30PM CST

[hiplop]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: beck

thought i already did this..

[charter]

Unvote, vote Panacea

Every post she makes screams scum even harder than the last. As much as I hate to admit it, it is possible Hiplop is just dead weight to the town. I went and reread some of his posts in a game he replaced into at the same time I died, and there's basically no content from him. While that doesn't excuse his poor reasoning and backtracking (which wasn't present in the other game), it lessens my ironclad scumread I had on him. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17498 that's the game if anyone cares.

The tipping point is her last post, where she flip flops on Beck, for pretty much no reason and after that gigantic IIOA "case" she posted. I do not see how she had this change of heart at all. Looks like she's trying to abandon ship after Balter switched to Budja. Then her playing every side possible of the Juls/Beck debate, but not taking a stance. And then her question about bussing really rubs me the wrong way. I don't see how any answer to that question has relevance to anything, but it looks like she's trying to simultaneously implant the ideas that they're both scum or town/scum and that we should lynch both of them. That goes along with like her first four posts which I didn't care for at all either. I feel as if she's pretending to scumhunt. Hiplop just isn't even making the effort.

[pappums rat]

charter and pappum, you have been defending Beck, what do you think of his lying?

Clearly (IMO at least) you were not defending hiplop by claiming that Beck had asked him a softball question (I had agreed that it was a fairly weak question). However, I think that both of you blew this question out of proportion a little and have argued too much over what I think is a small matter. That said, I think this is a town-on-town fight.

I think Beck is scum. A townie would be able to admit they are wrong. But Beck-scum is so deep in this argument he can't dig himself out. I think my pressure on him the past several pages have shown how scummy he is. His lying is just icing on the cake.

I think Beck's playstyle makes it hard for him to admit that he has not "proven" anything and that his opinion is not going to be that of everyone else's. He is combative and agressive, and I think that lends itself to him not backing down on his points that he trys to make. TBH I dont see scum motivation behind his actions, but I can see how someone would come to that conclusion if they were embroiled in a argument with him.

[Panacea]

Nope. I just had to come in for a 12 hour shift. If Juls's ultimatum had a profound impact, I didn't want my vote stuck on him for such a long time before I could sit and read more thoroughly.

[charter]

I am pretty sure no one but Juls is going to care about that ultimatum and will pay no attention to it, pretty sure. And the rest of what I mentioned holds true. And you did flipflop on Beck, that's what "Beck's questions seem a lot more genuine to me now" seems to me like.

[Juls]

My V/LA has just been extended from July 15-25 due to a death in the family. July 15-17 will be absolutely no access. Same for July 18-25. Bare with me please.

[Juls]

EBWOP: by "same" I mean limited access

[Beck]

hope all is well, sorry for your loss

[Budja]

@ Beck #249
TO answer the non-misunderstood questions? Your attack on Juls.
Your interest in her peaked as she focused on you.

Wait what? Isn't it SCUM who typically try too hard?

That's true, but so do unmotivated town and her attitude heavily indicates the latter to me.

@Beck, you say Juls was distracting attention from hiplop. What attention was there actually on hiplop? I reread and I see little.
I would say panacea was the focus if anyone.

I went and reread some of his posts in a game he replaced into at the same time I died, and there's basically no content from him.

Why meta him now and not pages ago?

[Beck]

Budja

She seemed to come at me when I started questioning hiplop, and votes me for asking a soft ball question, she doesn't wait and see the results or ask me why I asked it, just votes me. That just made me keep an eye on her

Once hip got to L-2, she comes harder at me, I just felt it was retaliatory for going after hip because in my mind I did nothing wrong and her reasons for voting me were weak.

Hip had the largest wagon when she came hard at me, And I'm on my phone but I think hip had 2 votes when she voted me, charter started looking at hip also so the attention on pan was fading at that time if I recall correctly.

[charter]

I went and reread some of his posts in a game he replaced into at the same time I died, and there's basically no content from him.

Why meta him now and not pages ago?

Because of Panacea's increased scumminess and the general lack of a good wagon on Hiplop.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, after spending a large chunck of my morning rereading this game, I have a few observations:

1) The Juls-Beck fight makes my eyes bleed still and I've lost any tail of reads from it just because it's such a spam fest. You guys need to cool it with the tit-for-tat because it's impossible to tell the difference between genuine frustration and thread spamming to kill town interest in the game at this point. This was a favorite scum technique from Adel back in the day and I'm always suspicious of it when I see it.

2) I actually like Panacea's play after she gets her head on straight. Charter's vote on her is bullshit and sets off huge alarm bells for me. I haven't liked your play for much of this game charter because your de facto argument is 'people not contributin,' which is a very easy thing for a veteran of MS to attack noobs for and still look legit. Yeah, she flips her read on Beck after her giant PBPA. I hated that PBPA post as much as anyone. However, her follow up posts are pretty decent scumhunting and it is obvious she is really trying at that point. I think it's pretty illogical for you first to attack her for not scumhunting and then to follow that up by attacking the scumhunting she does do when starts putting more effort in. It's damned if you do and damned if you don't.

unvote, vote: Budja

Care to elaborate?

Budja has been following me around all game without making any contribution of his own. he clearly got the message of that vote because his following post was original questions. Needless to say, that doesn't exactly quell my suspicions of him. I do think Budja gets kind of a slow start to games when he's town, so I'm certainly not saying I have a strong scum read on him. But my vote would have had very little impact if I had explained that at the time. Either way, I want to see some more out of Budja so I can get a better read of him, and following me around is only going to make me further want to lynch.

3) I think Beck is scum. A townie would be able to admit they are wrong. But Beck-scum is so deep in this argument he can't dig himself out. I think my pressure on him the past several pages have shown how scummy he is. His lying is just icing on the cake.

Wait, where was he lying? Also, failure to admit being wrong isn't really a scumtell so much as a stubborn-tell. I've lynched too many townies over this.

Also, sorry about the loss. Give Moratorium my condolences as well.

---

Phoebus - You're like the sideline king here. What do you think of Panacea's change of posting style?

---

You see how I threw in those hr's for you.

[Beck]

Yeah where did I lie?

And yeah the bitch fest is annoying even for me, so I'm not going to do the back to back stuff anymore.

Still not caring for the lack of participation by hip, you would think being L-2 would inspire him more.

This weekend I'll do a full read through again.

[Juls]

VP, regarding Panacea, what changed between this:

I need to read these walls closely at some point today, but my gut reaction to Panacea was the same as Juls unfortunately.

and this...

I actually like Panacea's play after she gets her head on straight.

Also, what happened between this:

Very happy with my vote

[on Beck

.

and this...

failure to admit being wrong isn't really a scumtell so much as a stubborn-tell. I've lynched too many townies over this.

In general, VP you have been the paragon of inconsistency and obscurity. Can you please define your current reads on each person?

Wait, where was he lying? Also, failure to admit being wrong isn't really a scumtell so much as a stubborn-tell. I've lynched too many townies over this.

He got caught lying when I called him on saying that I was "defending hiplop". It's ludicrous. And his whole case on me is I am "fake scumhunting" (I guess because he is the target of it) and that I "defended" hiplop. No one in their right mind would think I defended hiplop. No one in this game agrees with him, yet he still keeps pushing that me and hiplop are scumbuddies. He very well may be stubborn town but the fact that he is tunneling me on a weak case and he can't get out of his own argument makes me think he is scum. People keep saying he is scum hunting but all he has done is tunnel me and hiplop with a little VP Baltar on the side. All of which revolve around one completely wrong point that he thinks hiplop is scum and me and VP "defended" him. It's called latching on to a weak argument.

Yeah where did I lie?

Why did it take you so long to ask this question yourself? You had clearly read the post in question and have posted since. Why piggyback on VP's question?

---

To those who offered condolences, thank you.

[Beck]

Cause I honestly missed it on my phone.

[Beck]

Btw, the way I perceive and interpret your actions isn't a lie, it's how I honestly feel.

If you disagree say that, but you can't say I'm lying about it. Lying implies I made it up completely. Which I didn't.

[VP Baltar]

VP, regarding Panacea, what changed between this:

I need to read these walls closely at some point today, but my gut reaction to Panacea was the same as Juls unfortunately.

and this...

I actually like Panacea's play after she gets her head on straight.

She gets her head on straight after that crappy Beck PBPA. I went back and reread the entire game, and while I didn't like the PBPA I do feel that her posts after that have decent scumhunting in them. I explained this in my post and I don't see how those thoughts are in conflict with each other.

Also, what happened between this:

Very happy with my vote [on Beck.

and this...

failure to admit being wrong isn't really a scumtell so much as a stubborn-tell. I've lynched too many townies over this.

In general, VP you have been the paragon of inconsistency and obscurity. Can you please define your current reads on each person?

Well, your big fight with Beck is one huge clusterfuck for one. I don't think you come out as the clear winrar of that if that's what your assumption is. I think you're both kind of bickering over petty stuff and your ultimatum is useless. I still have my reservations about Beck, but that doesn't make you 100% right, particularly about a 'failure to admit you're wrong' tell. Again, I don't see a problem with my feelings in either of those posts.

Calling me the paragon of inconsistency is pretty much nothing but over the top rhetoric. My reads are always going to shift and change as I try to figure things out. I haven't flipped at all on my reads in terms of going from someone conf. town in my eyes to conf. scum or anything like that which could be taken as inconsistency.

In terms of my reads, I think I've been pretty clear actually. I've voted for people I find to be scummy. What reads do you think I haven't been clear on?

He got caught lying when I called him on saying that I was "defending hiplop". It's ludicrous. And his whole case on me is I am "fake scumhunting" (I guess because he is the target of it) and that I "defended" hiplop. No one in their right mind would think I defended hiplop. No one in this game agrees with him, yet he still keeps pushing that me and hiplop are scumbuddies. He very well may be stubborn town but the fact that he is tunneling me on a weak case and he can't get out of his own argument makes me think he is scum. People keep saying he is scum hunting but all he has done is tunnel me and hiplop with a little VP Baltar on the side. All of which revolve around one completely wrong point that he thinks hiplop is scum and me and VP "defended" him. It's called latching on to a weak argument.

As someone who has also been tunneled and wrongly accused of defending hiplop, I can't honestly say that it's a 'lie.' To me a lie is something that is unequivocally proven to be a fact. I think Beck's point is bullshit because the things aren't related, but if he's town he probably believes what he is saying. That's quite different than someone lying (ie claiming a night action that is later countered by another role or something along those lines)

tl;dr

I feel like you are way over stating things here Juls. Both you and Beck are. That's why all this bickering is going on. You started the game cooly and now you're charging around like a frenzied rhino. What's the deal? You really believe what you're saying when you call me the 'paragon of inconsistency'? Honestly?

[Juls]

I don't know who you think is scum and who you think is town and that is troublesome for me.
You went after pappum's rat for a bit, then backed off and haven't said anything else about it but I don't really know if you still find him suspicious or not.
You went after Beck for a bit, then backed off but I don't really know if you still find him suspicious or not.
You went after Budja for a bit, I think you still have mild suspicion of him but maybe not as much?
You didn't like what Panacea did with her PBPA but her scumhunting has been so stellar that it has been erased?
Charter may be scum to you, maybe not, I don't know?
I think you and I have the same views on hiplop?
I have no idea what your read on me is.
and Phoebus?

There is a lot of uncertainty there. Maybe "uncertainty" would be a better word than "inconsistency". I don't really have a problem with people being inconsistent as long as I understand where the inconsistency is coming from.

Regarding Beck's lie. To lie, is to imply intent. Beck-scum is doing this with purpose, thus intent is there. Beck-town is just wrong.