Mini 1195: The Beehive Mystery (GAME OVER)

[jilynne1991]

You guys...I am sooo sorry, but I really need to start cutting the crap out of my life, because I'm going to a math camp soon and then I'm trying to get into a boarding school, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to leave mafiascum, sorry.

[Tommy]

I welcome Scott Brosius's vote on Llamarble. That and jilynne pulling out give me new hope for a Llamarble wagon.

Vote: Llamarble

Vote Llamarble, people! He hammered Acronach even though he thought Acronach was town. He claims there wasn't time to hammer anyone else, but there was ages. He's been avoiding questions.

Mod, please replace jilynne.

Enjoy math camp, jilynne.

[Beck]

Are you suggesting we manufacture reads so that you can feel better about how townie we're being?

That's pretty much what I'm suggesting. I'm not seeing any authenticity in your reads. Either you're being lazy about scum hunting or you're scum. Since there are two of you, and you've maintained a pretty decent post rate, I'm thinking you've had plenty of time to come up with scum reads that make more sense and act upon them. You haven't, so I'm thinking you're scum.

@Beck
Your position on Ivan isn't really making sense right now. You said you were leaning town on Ivan as recently as post 740, but as soon as Scott called you on using the "too scummy to be scum" argument, you changed your stance to saying Ivan is actually scummy, but he just shouldn't be lynched today, which seems like more of a neutral read at best. I'm not quite sure what to make of the inconsistency, but the town read followed by a quick retreat seems strange to me. I don't quite understand how you can say someone looks town in one post and then say we can lynch them later an hour and half afterwards.

way to mis-rep me

I said I have a town read on him because he is too scummy to be scum

if later in the game he is still alive and we are scratching our heads, that too scummy to be scum will be thrown out of the window and the things he has said through the course of the game will be scrutinized.

I just don't think he is the best day 2 target.

thanks for being more scummy

[subgenius]

Whatever, call it a misrep, but it looks strange to me. Notice I never said scummy, I said strange. If I have a town read, I don't start laying groundwork for possibly lynching them later. My guess is that your read wasn't strong in the first place, since you didn't even remember making it, but felt compelled to back it up anyway for the sake of consistency. Then you took the opportunity to back off on your read when Scott commented about the dangers of accepting "too scummy to be scum", since you didn't really believe it that strongly to begin with.

I'm not sure it matters, but I thought the sequence of posts was strange.

[Beck]

ok reading marble's posts I learn absolutely nothing

The only smart thing he says is vote somebody on the list of not masons

So the choices for me are Ice, marble, or jilly

Need to re-read ice next but jilly's slot is already scummy so I'm okay with her, marble's lack of scum hunting is interesting too, plus that rush to hammer was bad.

Unless I see something absolutely horrible from ice, the top choices for today I think are jilly and marble

[subgenius]

Beck, I hate to keep harping on you, because I really do feel like you're town, but could you explain when Ice ended up on your lynchable list? Looking through your ISO, I don't see anything suggesting suspicion of him. At one point, you said you thought he was a mason, and now he's on your short list of lynch targets. To be clear, I feel good about your play so far, but I'd feel better if I knew what made you change your read on him.

[Beck]

Beck, I hate to keep harping on you, because I really do feel like you're town, but could you explain when Ice ended up on your lynchable list? Looking through your ISO, I don't see anything suggesting suspicion of him. At one point, you said you thought he was a mason, and now he's on your short list of lynch targets. To be clear, I feel good about your play so far, but I'd feel better if I knew what made you change your read on him.

I said earlier, I'm pretty sure, that we should be lynching somebody from the "not masons" list this is the pool of people we are choosing from.

I do not choose myself, I don't think Ivan is a good candidate either, that leaves Ice, marble, and jilly

I wants to re-read each person cause I had null reads on ice and marble (mostly due to not really paying close attention to their posts)

I have done my re-reads (except the one Ivan which I am going to after lunch)

Ice- has posted lots of content and he looks genuine in what he is posting(it's hard to interpret genuin behavior I realize but he doesn't come off as scummy to me)

Marble - really hasn't contributed anything stellar, had activity issues early with a fail hydra partner. I feel I don't really know where he stands

Jilly - the SK buddying makes this slot look bad, jilly coming in doing nothing but "poor me, I'm just a VT" could be an act.

That's where I stand, id be fine with either

I honestly feel if jilly is going to be replaced again, that's going to just fuck this game up more.

[subgenius]

Alright that makes sense, although I'm surprised that even while you're giving so much credence to the non-mason list, and Ivan is on it, and you admit he has acted scummy, you still don't consider him a legitimate lynch target today. Did you read the link to Archaebob's post about Day 1 play for townies?

[Beck]

Seems you are so concerned about him, have anything to do with the fact he is voting you?

The thing with Ivan is more of a gut read ATM , his play as scum doesn't make sense

Now if people make valid reasons why his play = scum, I'll listen. But Bering a scummy player as town many times before, I don't feel like he is scum.

That's why I made that comment about banging my head, I wanted him to be scum, I just don't beleive he is.

[Beck]

Another thing, I tend to Watch what people do and say to help my gut reads, if I feel he is being less helpful, I'll gladly call him out on it

Right now he is a sit back and watch what he does player.

Marble and jilly are just not helping v

[subgenius]

Seems you are so concerned about him, have anything to do with the fact he is voting you?

I make every attempt to be as object as I possibly can, but I'm sure I'm subconsciously paying more attention to him because he's voting for me, but I don't vote for everyone that votes for me. There needs to be something more. My problem with Ivan isn't that he's voting for me, it's that his case seems pretty weak, and it's pretty much all he's contributed the entire game.

The thing with Ivan is more of a gut read ATM , his play as scum doesn't make sense

Now if people make valid reasons why his play = scum, I'll listen. But Bering a scummy player as town many times before, I don't feel like he is scum.

I can't argue with a gut read. I made my case in post 718, and I don't have a lot to add to it. I feel like it's strong enough to at least consider seriously. At the core of the case is the simple point that I don't get the impression that Ivan has much interest in lynching scum. He's alluded to scum reads here and there but hasn't done much to pursue them or demonstrate that he sincerely believes his scum lists. I would also suggest reading Archaebob's thread in Mafia Discussion, because his idea of how a townie should act does not at all resemble how Ivan has acted.

Also, I don't see how you can think that Ivan has been helpful. He didn't actually provide anything substantive today until I had asked him several times (to which his first response was a veiled threat), and when he did post a case, it was a rehash of what he already had from yesterday. If I hadn't asked him to back up his scum list, I have little doubt that he would still be voting for Tommy with nothing but a one line explanation about how he agreed with Llama's case. Instead, he's now voting for me apparently partly as retaliation for actually demanding that he do something.

He's not doing anything without being provoked, and then when he does do something, he gives no evidence that he is still actively looking for scum. The guy is absolutely not helping. He's not even being the brash and aggressive scummy type player that I'm guessing you're frequently accused of being. He's lurking and only acting when someone shines the flashlight in his direction.

[subgenius]

post edit: Let me revise lurking in the last sentence to "not contributing". He's posting at a decent rate, but they're largely empty posts, which I consider more disturbing in many ways than not posting at all.

[Beck]

I'll read your case, I sort of skimmed it the first time.

[Llamarble]

Ivan is actually town, I think.
SB is probably right about a scum or two on the major D1 wagons (Hard to wagon a mason without scum since only 7 townies are available to place votes) I think there is scum in Rblinker/Subgenius/Ice and need to find it.

[Beck]

Sub I read your case, and this is why this hydra sucks ass

They started strong, questioning whoever it was day he was questioning day 1, than the other head came in and went psycho

I even pointed it out at one point.

This is a Dr. Jeckyk and Mr. Hyde hydra.

Ignore Jilly's play

Day 1 you voted SK after acro cause you felt his lynch was better by the way he was defending arco. Arco flipped town, making the defense seem like SK knew that.

Why would SK lynch not be desirable?

Also, what are your thoughts on marble's play thus far?

[subgenius]

Why would SK lynch not be desirable?

Remember, I'm not saying a Jilynne lynch isn't desirable. I'm saying it's not desirable a week before the deadline. I think Jilynne is quite scummy, and a good lynch, but I don't want to lynch her with a week left in the day without trying to get people to discuss opinions about other issues. I think if we allow people to lynch her without enough discussion as a simple default lynch, we'll be a little bit screwed if she turns out town. I think SK was scummy, but I'm not sure enough to want to see us start D3 with precious little more information than we had at the beginning of D2.

Also, what are your thoughts on marble's play thus far?

Not good. I'm strongly considering moving my vote to his wagon since I clearly can't get anything going on Ivan.

My lynch picks for today are Llama, Ivan, or Jilynne.

[ICEninja]

I wish Ice would post more btw.

I wish I was still a college student that had 6+ hours of free time every day.

I really like the burst of activity that happened with the recent replacements.

Your position on Ivan isn't really making sense right now. You said you were leaning town on Ivan as recently as post 740, but as soon as Scott called you on using the "too scummy to be scum" argument, you changed your stance to saying Ivan is actually scummy, but he just shouldn't be lynched today, which seems like more of a neutral read at best. I'm not quite sure what to make of the inconsistency, but the town read followed by a quick retreat seems strange to me. I don't quite understand how you can say someone looks town in one post and then say we can lynch them later an hour and half afterwards.

This. I've considered Beck fairly town this game, but he almost seemed spooked in to changing his read right here. I don't like it, and I'll do some reading this weekend on Beck to see if maybe I've been wrong to give him a town read.

I said I have a town read on him because he is too scummy to be scum

if later in the game he is still alive and we are scratching our heads, that too scummy to be scum will be thrown out of the window and the things he has said through the course of the game will be scrutinized.

That's not really how I interpreted what happened. Like I said, it almost seemed like a knee jerk reaction to shift your read to something that accommodates other people. It bothers me some.

Beck is not an acceptable day 2 lynch, however.

Still not against lynching jil's slot, and definitely not upset that she's replacing out.

Scott is making me feel marginally better about his slot, but hasn't really moved forward with anything groundbreaking. I still feel like this slot is leaning scum.

I feel like blinker and Ivan are acceptable lynch picks, Llama still isn't in the clear but that still doesn't feel great either.

This is frustrating, as I feel like half of the players are slightly scummy and require pressure, but not to the extent that they need to be lynched.

Really tired right now. Content will unfortunately have to wait for Saturday.

[Beck]

clearly you guys have gone an entire game without your reads never changing? I highly doubt it

all I basically said is based on his play, I don't feel ivan is mafia. Mostly because it is due to the fact he is too scummy, which I have been accused of in the past and sometimes even currently.

this never meant that I will never lynch him if I feel he slips later in the game or something.

you act like I said "I will never lynch him"

and than an hour later I say I will


basically

Day 2 - he deserves more time to get him and his hydra straight after a rocky start

Day 5 or 6 - he and everyone else alive, will need to be re-read and scrutinized.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

We want to lynch Subgenius. We have made that clear.

Let me draw your attention to each post where Subgenius has actually voted, where I will demonstrate the scum mindset.

1st.

Hello people.

vote: Beck

I agree with Beck's assessment that he must be scum.

Also, I know we have several hydras in here, but I'm not sure I'm aware of all of them. Ivan, Greymarble, and I think one or two more. Who are the others?

See this post doesn't have a whole lot that is actually wrong with it. It's just an RVS vote. The only issue I have with this vote his how

long

he held on to it. The RVS ended and numerous suspicions came and went, yet his RVS vote persisted. There is no reason to do that other than to avoid attention and upsetting people. That is a scum mind set.

2nd.

@Sungenius: Do you still like your Beck vote? I feel like pressure on him will get us no further and his joking was probably more town in hindsight. I can't see scum wanting to draw attention to themselves unless it's for a pro- town reason. What do you think of Acro?

No, my vote is still on Beck because I haven't decided on a better place to put it at the moment.

What do I think about Acro? Well, I had to pull up his ISO to even remember what he had posted, and that's because he's made four posts with no information except that he doesn't want to vote yet. His only questions to others have been about Beck's previous mafia experience and a request for clarification from confid about his vote, which seems like a defensive move rather than an attempt to put pressure on Confid. In short, he's posting, but has avoided voting or letting any opinions be known. I can excuse a refusal to vote if a player compensates by actively pressuring players through pointed questions and provides interesting analysis, but Acro is not doing this.

You thinking Yank was scum until post 49. Why the sudden change?

I thought I explained myself pretty fully in Post 53. Prior to Post 49, I read Yank as fence sitting and hesitant to state firm opinions, which I consider scummy. In post 49, he came out of his shell a bit and took a firm stand. I don't think it was necessarily a good one, but I don't think it was a scummy one either. It looked like a jumpy newbie defense, which lessened my suspicions of Yank.

@CS
RVS is OVER. Acro did the right thing not slapping on a vote.
+5

I find Sleepy's support of Acro's refusal to vote a bit strange. I wouldn't vote someone for refusing to vote, but neither would I argue that it is a good move, and I certainly wouldn't assign someone "vollkan points"© for calling someone out for refusing to vote.

A trait I've noticed in various mafia games throughout the interwebs is that scum, more specifically newer scum, tend to want to make sure that everyone knows why they are doing what they are doing, so that they won't get suspected for it. Your [Acro's] statement seems to fall in line with that.

I find this argument plausible.

In conclusion, my vote isn't doing much on Beck, and it looks like Acro might need a few votes on him before he decides to contribute. I'm less concerned by the fact that he's not voting than the fact that he's not voting OR contributing much in other ways. This is troubling to me.

Unvote

Vote: Acronach

You don't need to read all of this post as a lot of it is just responding to other people. However, there is a general tone that needs to be taken into account. This is really a gut thing, so it will be difficult for me to articulate, however I will try. He is much to reasonable. He answers everything asked of him carefully in a way that won't spark any controversy. He is quick to agree with other people's opinions, but has a few in mind that he won't agree with. It all reads like play acting.

More tangibly, read the sentence where he actually votes achro. There is very little actual reasoning in it despite all the logical discussion regarding other issues above. This is very basic scum mindset. He is logical to appear town, but his vote is more offhanded in a way that prevents him from being held to that opinion. Notice that he doesn't say "Achro is scum," he says achro needs some pressure. That allows him to very easily later say "yes achro is scum, that's why I'm voting him. Duh," or to say "No achro is town, I was just pressuring him but he seems ok now." There is no way anyone could hold him to this vote. Now his RVS vote follows the same patter. At any point he could say "Oh it was obviously a joke," or "No, I think that was a real slip, or he was acting nervous." Again, I'm less concerned about that one due to it being his first post.

3rd.

It is protown to not vote when you have no idea what to do. It's VI-ish having no idea what to do.

Acro is a VI. Of course he'll do anti-town things.

In the second quote, it looks like that you admit Acro was being anti-town, but dismiss it based on him being a VI. Now, you're saying that he was being pro-town despite being a VI.

Before that, you said that not voting was correct play based on RVS being over, but you didn't mention at all that this was correct only if you're a VI or that Acro is a VI.

Still, your only consistent position on Acro is that he shouldn't be exposed to pressure.

@sub, if somebody thinks somebody is VI, what is wrong with that person defending the VI from being lynched (going under the assumption that the VI = town read)

Nothing is wrong with defending a VI town read from being lynched, but that is in no way what Sleepy was doing.
First, Acro was not anywhere near a lynch, he was simply under a small amount of pressure.
Second, I haven't seen Sleepy argue anywhere that he actually has a town read on Acro. He was only pointing out Acro's meta as a VI, which is utterly irrelevant to his alignment in this game.

I'm changing my vote. There's something fishy going on with Sleepy and Acro, and Sleepy is the far fishier of the two.

unvote

vote: Sleepy

Look at his vote sentence again. They aren't scum, they're "fishy." That means at any time he can make the same claim. "I actually think they are scum," or "No I was pressuring them, but I think they're probably town." No one could possibly hold him to this vote either. It is truly amazing how slippery he is with his wording.

4th.

unvote

vote: Yank

Honestly, I expected him to disappear and be prodded out. I certainly didn't expect him to come back and vote Grey with a one line explanation. After his two day disappearance following a period of pressure, he really needed to come back strong to lessen my suspicions of him. This vote against Grey is the opposite of strong.

I'm not sure I'm ready for the day to end, because I feel like this is continuing to be an eventful and informative day, but I'm liking a Yank lynch a lot at this point.

Once again, read the last sentence. "at this point," means that he might not think the same think at the next point. Also he qualifies this with "I'm not sure I'm ready for the day to end," which means he can hop off the bandwagon whenever he feels like it.

5th

Alright, my opinion is that there are literally only scum motivations for lynching Yank right now. Even I were 90% sure Yank was scum today (which I consider a pretty high degree of certainty for a day 1 lynch) he'd still be a bad lynch today. If he's telling the truth, lynching him is a bad blow for a very powerful pro-town faction. If he's lying, he's already caught, and it's just a matter of time before he's lynched. There's no hurry. Therefor, Da Koolzy and Acro are both looking a bit scummier after their post claim support for Yank's wagon. Da Koolzy obviously supports it since he's voting for him, and although Acro switched his vote from the wagon, it's quite clear that he'd still prefer a Yank lynch.

Da Koolzy is on the radar. He came out of the woodwork seemingly hoping to hammer Yank after his claim. Also, he has yet deliver on any kind of comprehensive catch up post. The attack on Yank seemed a bit opportunistic (to use a popular buzz word) and out of the blue. He seems to have had computer trouble, and he should have time to more completely explain himself today, but I really don't like his Yank vote.

I also don't like:

Don't hammer yet. I reserve the right to do so after I check a few things, and respond to some pending questions directed at me.

Then he tries to hammer without answering the questions.

Acro was already on the radar, and since being there has dodged questions for an extraordinarily long time and expressed frustration that we aren't lynching a player that any thinking townie would realize is a bad lynch for today.

Town points to ICE. I'm extremely grateful that he unvoted, thus avoiding a hammer. His point about Sleepy is a good one. His unvote of Yank does not look like a scum move. It by no means clears him, but it does lessen my suspicions of him somewhat.

vote: Acro

Now this one is a little harder to read. He doesn't accompany the actual vote with anything, however, he also doesn't post anything like a case on achro, instead he relies on past "suspicions." His vote itself is not strongly placed. There is no conviction behind it, rather it is a "good lynch," not a "scum lynch," but a "good lynch." Again this is slippery. He could very easily decide that this is "not a good lynch."

His next vote is a mod correction, so I'm ignoring it.

6th

Ugh, fine.

unvote

vote: Greymarble

Really?

7th

I'm a little surprised that scum decided to kill Yank, but his alignment isn't much of a surprise. I don't think either of the flips change my reads very much. Grey and sleepy (jilynne) are still at the top of my list. I should re-read a bit to get my momentum back, but those are definitely the two players I'm most interested in hearing from at the moment.

vote: Greymarble

Once again he is pressuring. At any point he could stop pressuring and no one could say "boo."

8th

agreed

vote: Jily

Once again. Really?

'tis not a matter of lynching lurkers for being lurky, but rather of lynching them for being scummy.
Jil is scummy. Her being a confirmed nonmason and a lurker are bonuses, but definitely of secondary importance.

I fully agree that Jil is scummy, but I'd prefer that we not settle on lynching a player that seems unlikely to respond when we have nearly a week left before deadline and we still have the opportunity to pressure scummy players who are unlikely to respond. My primary concern is that if we lynch Jil or Dakoolzy, and they're not scum, we won't have an awful lot to show for this day. I think it's unwise to put all of our eggs in the scummy lurker hunting basket.

Also, since it looks like Da Koolzy is being replaced, I think it would be wise to wait to see what his replacement has to say.

In the meantime,

unvote

vote: Ivan

The case is that despite posting a fair amount, I don't feel that he has developed any authentic scum reads, and if he has, he doesn't seem terribly interested in making them stick. His most fully developed case is the one against me, which is all based on old info. He first presented it in D1, and never responded to my defense. Then today, when he was again asked to present a case, he more or less reposted his original case and claimed that my response was not satisfactory. If this was the case, and if he really thought I was scum, I would expect him to both continue pressuring me and point out my failures in an attempt to get others to lynch me. He did neither, which leads me to believe he neither believes in his case nor wishes to lynch scum. Other than this, I find his sarcastic attitude quite anti-town, though not necessarily scummy.

Last point is that after reading this thread he posted in Mafia Discussion, which I mostly agree with, I don't see how he implemented his town mindset into day 1 play. Particularly:

What I mean by "town must look town" is that you must reveal what your role is simply by being truthful. You aren't trying to "look town" as much as you are trying to share your true feelings with the town in a way that is helpful and productive. This means you want to play honestly, openly, and amicably

Granted, Ivan is a hydra, and not all of the play has been archaebob's, but I find that a lot of Ivan's play has been the opposite of honest, open, amicable, helpful, and productive. The sarcasm, the reluctance to post cases, the inability to form a coherent opinion with his other head, none of these are consistent with what he, himself, has said a town player should be doing, which leads me to think that he is, in fact, scum.

If we get to the deadline, and no other cases are solidifying, I'll be happy to hammer Jily, but as it stands, I feel like the town is settling for the default lynch, which is ok as long as we do it while also simultaneously using our limited time trying to uncover and develop more reads, but I do not want to lynch a lurker with a week left before the deadline without digging around a bit more

Here, finally after all this time, he votes us. Now he does actually post some serious suspicions, however notice that the part dealing with us starts with "In the meantime," so I suppose we're expected to think that there is something else he plans to get to that will take precedence over voting us.

And that's it. Not once has he wholly committed to a vote. Not once has he not left himself with an out. Every single time he actually votes anyone he drowns it in qualifiers. His entire attitude is to be pro-town, not to find scum. That is a scum mind set.

[subgenius]

First I'll address a few specific points:

He is much to reasonable. He answers everything asked of him carefully in a way that won't spark any controversy. He is quick to agree with other people's opinions, but has a few in mind that he won't agree with. It all reads like play acting.

*shrug* I don't have a problem with being called too reasonable. I've agreed with what I agreed with and disagreed with what I disagree with. If you can show how any of my opinions are insincere or scum motivated, maybe this would be more persuasive.

More tangibly, read the sentence where he actually votes achro. There is very little actual reasoning in it despite all the logical discussion regarding other issues above.

Perhaps if you weren't skimming to drum up a case, you would have noticed that most of the reasoning for voting Acro is in the first paragraph of the post. I just didn't actually vote until the end.

They aren't scum, they're "fishy."

One thing you'll find about me is that I very rarely call anyone scummy unless I'm convinced that there is no way to justify a town person doing what they're doing. Suspicious or fish or strange simply means something that doesn't quite make sense from my understanding of the game but might have a town explanation. Scummy is something that has no possible town excuse. I don't run in to things like that very often.

rather it is a "good lynch," not a "scum lynch,"

Similar to above. I'd need to be 95% sure that someone was scum before I declared that we were going to have a scum lynch. Unfortunately, I'm almost never that sure, and anyone who claims to be that sure is generally delusional, lying, or a cop.

however notice that the part dealing with us starts with "In the meantime," so I suppose we're expected to think that there is something else he plans to get to that will take precedence over voting us.

You're acting as if I'm trying to be sneaky here. I straight out said that I would be happy to hammer Jillyne later, but I thought we were moving too fast and with too little discussion. Therefor, I decided to do something else. I'm still in the same frame of mind. I'll happily lynch Jilynne, but I'm quite glad that we haven't done it yet since we're seeing a surge in activity right now that might have been skipped over if we had simply settled on Jilynne.

Anyhow, you've thoroughly explained why you think I'm scum. It seems to rely primarily on word choice, which I've never found especially compelling, but at least you made a full case that didn't rely entirely on material from D1.

However, you still have three other suspects that you have said almost nothing about. What did you think of Magic's plan to wagon Jily and Dakoolzy? That plan had a chance of putting two of your suspects, Rblinker and Tommy, on the spot, but you never commented on it at all.

[Tommy]

I still feel that Beck is town. He's been earnestly scum-hunting and giving a great impression of frustration at not knowing who to vote. I think that his post 756 is a reasonable explanation of the apparent flip-flop on Ivan.

I think Subgenius ably revealed the thinness of Ivan's case on him. It seems like every time Ivan opens his mouth he shows how little he's concentrating on looking for scum. No wonder he's reticent to expand on his other reads. I'm becoming increasingly happy with the idea of lynching him.

[Beck]

I actually like ivan's case, I'll read sub's response to it soon

[Beck]

Sometime this weekend I'll try and force myself to re-read day 1

I just can't get over the defense of SK. That is almost always scum defending town

[Beck]

Meh, sub's defense isn't special. Those 2 votes where he seemed to Compromise or sheep are quite telling

But since he isn't on the list of "non masons"

I don't support a lynch of him today

[Captain Spoon]

TS here

I like Ivan's last post after a quick skim of it. However I've had a gut town read of Sub the whole game and I don't want to lynch him. I find there are some small towntells in his ISO that I like. I'll come to these if a Sub lynch actually becomes serious. Otherwise i see no point in searching for them again

I forget who my vote is on, but I quite like Scott so I'll take my vote off of kool (if it was on him which i think it may have been) and vote likely scumspect #2
VOTE: Jily

I quite like Magic too, he's not been bad at all