Mini 1180: Game Over

[mastin2]

I just had a realization:

The Ald lynch is the WormyKrew lynch, all over again.

The WormyKrew lynch was building up slowly throughout the day. It was a natural wagon, because it was on scum.

Then, it fell apart. TWIE was quickwagoned, up to L-1, I believe. I pushed. Hard. Against TWIE being lynched. Others did, too.

But WormyKrew wasn't lynched because we were convincing. WormyKrew was lynched because of deadline, and enough people refused to go onto TWIE that a TWIE wagon couldn't happen.

This right now?

Same exact thing.

An Ald wagon has been slowly building throughout the day. Completely naturally, as it's on scum. But then, it fell apart. And Captain got Speed-Wagoned up to L-1 in less than twelve hours. I'm pushing. Hard. Against that lynch.

And deadline is supposed to be close.

There shouldn't be enough support on Captain for a lynch. It just shouldn't happen, at all. And to ensure Day Two doesn't end with a No Lynch, guess who should be lynched?

Ald.

I'd prefer, of course, that Ald die before deadline, but still.

The resemblance is scarily close.

(Oh, and in both instances, the counter-wagon is on obv-town. TWIE and Captain.)

[Soben]

Scumhunter, don't get me wrong. I think you're a great player. You're playing amazingly regardless of your alignment.

Apparently not, if you think so strongly we are scum, we would be playing a terrible scum game. -___-

Also, I'm going to refrain from posting more til I get home in about an hour and a half and have a chance to discuss things in more depth with R. We have a bit of a disagreement with our vote atm.

[Captain Corporal]

Hey everyone, was asleep.
And I was put at L-1.
That was a fast wagon. If I do get lynched in the future, I advise everyone to take a good look at my wagon and who was on it.

@Soben
I think I posted some conflicting statements about WK. The fact is, I thought he was town. In all honesty.

Still think Elsa is scum, the way she hopped on the bandwagon only fortifies it.

[DarthYoshi]

^ The above post from CC is not a townish post. Note how he casts vague suspicions on his wagon without actually saying who he suspects or why, and feels the need to emphasize the HONESTY of his thinking that WK was town. Town are much more likely to offer specifics and particulars when their back is against the wall, knowing they have nothing to lose by telling the truth. CC basically just says "lookit my wagon" with no real suspect analysis.

I'm amazed that this wagon fell apart so quickly on the basis mostly of Mastin's reaction to it.

[Captain Corporal]

>_>
Whatever.

Just to stop confusion later, I claim VT.

[Substrike22]

As stated earlier I will not end this day via deadline until I have a replacement for TWIE since he's literally missed all of day 2. Deadline will be 72 hours after that. If you lynch before then, I will either allow twilight to occur until a replacement is found, or push you into night and then have that last indefinitely until a replacement is found. I'll cross that bridge if we come to it. That's all.

Oh, and a votecount will happen tomorrow when I wake up.

[mastin2]

^ The above post from CC is not a townish post. Note how he casts vague suspicions on his wagon without actually saying who he suspects or why, and feels the need to emphasize the HONESTY of his thinking that WK was town. Town are much more likely to offer specifics and particulars when their back is against the wall, knowing they have nothing to lose by telling the truth. CC basically just says "lookit my wagon" with no real suspect analysis.

I'm amazed that this wagon fell apart so quickly on the basis mostly of Mastin's reaction to it.

Yoshi, you're town.

I get that now.

I see it in my mind, how this post comes from town.

But dang, is it wrong-town.

The wagon fell apart quickly not because of what I said--but because it was a wagon which formed quickly in the first place. A quickwagon will fall apart equally as quickly with so much as a single voice of reason objecting to it.

Quite frankly, it would've been suspicious for Captain to single out a single player on his wagon, in my opinion, because--quite frankly--that's not what town does when they're close to being lynched. I'm dead-tired right now, so I'm having trouble explaining it in rational terms, but...well, it's true.

I know, it's another thing which doesn't look like it makes sense. But it is the case, here.

Captain's town. I'll Protect him until the scum have the guts to kill me.

[wierdalexv]

Dang, I wanted an actual reaction from Captain Corporal, I thought that would be obvious enough that nooone would unvote until he got a chance to post. Yes, I Alduskkel is a better lynch. CC is still a good candidate for tomorrow, though.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Alduskkel

Anyways, as I never brought this up, Mastin is town. And it's pretty obvious when you think about it.

Here are the wagons we've had:
SleepyKrew
Elsa von Spielburg
TheWayItEnds
Alduskkel
jilynne1991
Captain Corporal

Probably some more that I forgot about.
Here are the ones he supported:
SleepyKrew

Elsa von Spielburg

TheWayItEnds

Alduskkel

jilynne1991

Captain Corporal

He's defending a bunch of easy wagons that scum wouldn't pass up. Four, actually.

Mastin=Town

Plus, the way he's playing, insisting the scumteam after getting called out for it, etc. etc. etc.

[DarthYoshi]

^This is a fair point from Alex. Yes, Mastin is probtown.

@Mastin: If I have the time today, I'll try to go re-read Gerhard's material before CC replaced in. I I don't know what any of the wagons are currently at, so pending a fresh VC from our mod, I will

unvote

for the moment, with the intention of re-allocating it as soon as the VC is posted and when I can re-read Gerhard. I still think either Ald or CC needs to die today, and tbh, I'm not convinced either of them is town yet. I'm at a friend's wedding this afternoon, but I should have some time around that to re-read.

[Soben]

alex, both of our heads agree that Mastin is likely town. That doesn't mean we have to agree with his logic or follow his reads whatsoever.

The logic of "WK lynch was hard to get support for and he flipped scum, so Ald lynch is good too" is lol bad fail logic. It is in the same thought process as "counterwagons are usually town when scum is lynched, so whoever the counterwagon is confirmed town". It's the worst type of results-oriented thinking and is in fact

sheeping

past results instead of using your brain to judge the circumstances uniquely.

I absolutely agree with Yoshi saying that CC's replies are not all that town, but Regfan disagrees and thinks CC is town and does not support that lynch. I'm not really feeling the Ald lynch, but Regfan still strongly supports that lynch so we are at a bit of a standstill here...

[Twistedspoon]

^do you support a Jily lynch?

[Soben]

R and I are both leaning town on Jily. We wouldn't be devastated if she were lynched really due to her lack of content, but we won't be voting her today. One thing that I thought it would make sense to bring up is that Jily town-necessitates a mafia roleblocker. That does make it slightly less likely that she is town in a vacuum as there is not a mafia roleblocker in every setup. If Jily is town we ought to look at who she was supposed to be targeting becuase if I were scum and I figured the vig would be shooting a town, I might just say screw it and let the shot go through...

R and I both like to scumhunt due to PoE as such are town reads are usually the ones we are most confident in...

Strong town reads: Alex, mastin, ironhead, yoshi (need to revisit yoshi townread, i've personally written him off as town ages ago and haven't iso'd him in a while)
Weaker town reads: TS, jillyn, Elsa
conflicted opinions, (one scumread/one town read each): Ald, CC
Still scum in both our opinions: TWIE

[Substrike22]

Current Votecount: Post 1287
7/15/11 12:14 pm PST
D 2.6

wierdalexv 3 jilynne1991, Ironhead, Alduskkel,
Soben 0
Elsa von Spielburg 0
Captain Corporal 2 Darth Yoshi, Elsa Von Spielburg,
jilynne1991 0
TheWayItEnds 0
DarthYoshi 0
Twistedspoon 0
Ironhead 0

Alduskkel 4 (L-2) Mastin2, Captain Corporal, Twistedspoon, Wiredalexv,

Mastin2 0

V/LA's: Yoshi (Limited Access) through July 14th

Not Voting: TheWayItEnds, Soben,

Deadline is

7/16/11 @ 9am.

postponed indefinitely until TWIE can be replaced. Will also work on finding a replacement for Jily.

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

TheWayitEnds and Jily (fucking really?) are in the process of being replaced.

[bvoigt]

alex, both of our heads agree that Mastin is likely town.

That doesn't mean we have to agree with his logic or follow his reads whatsoever

.

Why do you feel the need to mention the bolded? I never asked if/implied you did.
/Nitpicking

[wierdalexv]

/Faraday

Sorry, bvoigt and I shouldn't both use sepia. I do that way too often.

[wierdalexv]

Oh, and for ISO purposes and such:

alex, both of our heads agree that Mastin is likely town.

That doesn't mean we have to agree with his logic or follow his reads whatsoever

.

Why do you feel the need to mention the bolded? I never asked if/implied you did.
/Nitpicking

[mastin2]

...Huh?
Are you BV, or do you know BV? :/

(Also,

V/LA 7/16-7/22

. Won't stop me from playing; got plenty of access. It's just it'll be a minor inconvenience with a few hiccups here and there. )

[wierdalexv]

...Huh?
Are you BV, or do you know BV? :/

(Also,

V/LA 7/16-7/22

. Won't stop me from playing; got plenty of access. It's just it'll be a minor inconvenience with a few hiccups here and there. )

He's my brother, we post from the same computer.

[Twistedspoon]

...Huh?
Are you BV, or do you know BV? :/

(Also,

V/LA 7/16-7/22

. Won't stop me from playing; got plenty of access. It's just it'll be a minor inconvenience with a few hiccups here and there. )

He's my brother, we post from the same computer.

that must be cool

tell Bv I said Hi :3

[Captain Corporal]

Well...
UNVOTE:
I'm still not convinced with the Ald case, and my vote was only there for pressure. Which is proving ineffective.
Although I'd still like a claim.
But that's ok.

[Alduskkel]

Ald's case on me is lolfail. Townpoints should NOT be given for that.

On the other hand, wierdalex also gives random, unexplained town points to Elsa in 1011. He just says he finds things about her genuine, without saying why they are genuine.

I think it's pretty obvious that I meant the way she came to the conclusion of no competing scum wagons. Not that I agree, but she seemed to mean it.

Yeah, but

why

did she seem to mean it? That's what I'm getting at here.

Oh, and strictly speaking this is not part of my "case" on you UNLESS in the future Elsa flips scum.

So probably scum in
{DarthYoshi; jilynne1991; Alduskkel}
Hm...changes a bit. With the jilynne-townslip, that means one of DarthYoshi and Alduskkel is probably scum, most likely Alduskkel; have you noticed the way that WK called him town and then [literally, I looked through ISO] never brought him up again?

What the hell is this? "Let's steal something from TS [which was flawed in the first place], imply that I came up with it*, and vote Ald over it."? This is really awful and is simply bandwagoning.

Lol. Just lol. Read the rest of the post, I made it pretty obvious why I thought so and I don't see where TS came to this.

What's even worse:

*The "have you noticed" part implies that no one has noticed it but wierdalex.

...

...

...

....
hehehehehe
....
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
...
That's actually hilarious.

No. Try again.

@DarthYoshi: My point on Alduskkel being hypocritical depends on the reasoning for why WK was being avoided. I personally didn't get the WK case and was too busy defending myself (which is kind of embarrasing, I'm not too happy with my play this game).

Since when am I hypocritical? And waitaminuteweren'tyoucallingmetownearlier.

You're calling people out for people avoiding the WK wagon when you avoided the wagon yourself. Oh, and I think I explained my read-change.

I avoided the wagon for legitimate reasons. Funnily enough, plenty of people are willing to notice that I did at first defend WK but what isn't getting noticed is that I defended him for very good reasons; namely, the wagon on him was, at the time, almost without any reasons to back it up.

I don't even know how to respond to that. I don't see how it's scummy to imply you came up with something when you really DID come up with something.

I don't know if you're faking this or not. Are you just not reading the thread closely?

Ald's not going to claim until he's kept at L-1 and someone threatens to hammer. Make it happen, now. LOCK HIM INTO A CLAIM HE CAN'T BACK OUT OF. Put the pressure on him. DON'T GIVE HIM THE TIME TO THINK OF A FAKECLAIM. If he's scum, MAKE HIM CLAIM BEFORE HE HAS THE DETAILS WORKED OUT--the flaws in his claim will nail him as scum.

Pfft. Trying to get me to claim for the sake of getting me to claim.

The Scumteam for Mini 1180 is WormyKrew, Alduskkel, and Soben.

When I die, or when Soben dies (presuming Soben is town), I am going to laugh. You get so dead sure of things Mastin -- and then bam, you're wrong. The irony is that it's happened before but you don't see it happening now. And you should remember, too. That's why you're mastin2 now and not Mastin.

You know what's going to happen? One of us is going to flip town. Then you'll be left with nothing because you are looking into nothing else right now. In a manner that perfectly describes the act of boring through the earth to create an elongated hole to some already decided destination. Or, more succinctly, tunneling.

This seems like a case of "the more I say it, the more true it is."

I share these thoughts, claiming earlier is much more optimal than later as it allows time to look elsewhere whereas a last minute claim could potentially lead to a blitz vote occuring due to deadline issues and is something that needs to be avoided.

Alduskkel, I don't care if you prefer to refrain from claiming until intent to hammer is put forward, you need to claim in your next post. Refusal to do so will be treated as a scum-claim.

OTOH this actually does convince me I should claim.

I am a vanilla townie.

I'd also love to see them keep me alive, too. Because the longer I'm kept alive, the more dangerous I am. The more likely I am to screw them over.

Except you're wrong. If I were scum and not Alduskkel or Soben, then you'd be around for a long time because you're pushing a mislynch now and will probably be pushing one tomorrow.

I just think the one on Ald is much stronger, especially in light of him chainsaw-defending WK on D1 by casting suspicion on, like, the entire WK wagon.

Alright, this is the worst crap I have ever seen.

We've been over this.

I did NOT cast suspicion on the people on the WK wagon!! You said I did, I corrected you. This should be over.

BTW, CC went in a few days from saying he didn't see the case on Ald to putting Ald at L-1 and demanding a claim.

This is a good catch though.

1254-1258: Mostly good stuff.

You guys.

JUST LET ALD GET AWAY WITHOUT A SCRATCH. He's surviving, HE'S ESCAPED ATTENTION, exactly what I had warned you he would do.
The attention has been shifted from Ald (scum) onto Captain. (TOWN TOWN TOWN TOWN, OH SO VERY TOWN!)

And do you know who the primary driving force of this switch is?

Soben.

Geez this is an exaggeration. Yes, I am going to fade into the background Mastin even though I have been getting focus for a bunch of the day. Really, suspicions of me aren't so much dwindling a whole lot as people are considering other suspects.

If I survive today then I won't be surprised if I get lynched Day 3 or 4 anyway.

Gerhard. Let's start with him.
He begins his game voting WormyKrew. As an RVS, but still. Does that look like a bus in the RVS to you?

Weak. People bus in the RVS practically just as much as they don't.

He then immediately engages in legitimate scumhunting. He goes after Alex and locks onto Alex as scum immediately. This is not scum taking advantage of a weaker player. This is town, legitimately seeing something which looked scummy and pursuing it.

He doesn't lock into it. He votes jily the very next post.

Gerhard also commits a town-tell, by voting Jily after her claim. He thought she was scum, and didn't notice her claim. It's a minor tell, which you'd think would be null, but scum tend to read the thread closer and would instantly have noticed the claim, compared to town, who frequently miss details like that. It's also something you can't fake that well.

No. Scum don't read as closely because they don't care as much about scumhunting. Town examine details and look for every possibly scumtell. Well, the good ones at least.

There's also the fact that despite replacing out, he still put the work into the game and wanted to leave with the best he could give.

That's just called being nice.

I had defended Gerhard as town at the time, and he had a scumread on me. WHAT KIND OF SCUM CALLS THEIR DEFENDER SCUM? That's a signature (paranoid) town-move, extremely hard to fake.

Look, Mastin. I don't know if you know this, but as scum I try to be very genuine. I usually don't make stuff up just so I can hop onto a wagon or whatever. I try to see what I would find scummy as town and follow through with that. My point is that Gerhard can easily be someone like me. Someone who says what they think they'd think.

So it's not hard to fake.

And he uses my own tells (Tone, Motive, a little bit of Interaction) against me. I realize this doesn't seem significant and it probably was not intentional--but the fact that he used those three tells, against me, means that he was really scumhunting. Since (quite frankly) I can't fake seeing those tells in another. That scumhunting method is completely honest, truthful, and unbiased. Scum can't fake it, scum have trouble using it effectively. It's a signature town move.

Really? You can't fake that as scum? Link me the most recent finished scum game of yours, Mastin.

NINJAS: UNVOTE:

VOTE: ald

if ald flips scum we'll look at soben tommorow, K?

Err... Mastin convinces you just like that? What's wrong with what you said in your previous post? What's wrong with what alex said? What's wrong with what DY said? What's wrong with what Soben said?

Still, looks town enough. It'd be very easy to stay on CC at that point.

Enters with scumhunting,

CC did not enter with scumhunting. Or, at best, it was light and based on "feelings." (CC's words.)

He trusts in his predecessor's reads. This is a personal town-tell of mine. A signature scum move is to go completely against your (scummy) predecessor's views and take up an entirely new stance to (hopefully) become more favorable.

??? He does go against his predecessor's reads -- he feels Ironhead is town.

A TOWN signature is to trust entirely in your predecessor and acknowledge their wisdom.

I'm glad you're not replacing jilynne.

A TOWN signature is to trust entirely in your predecessor and acknowledge their wisdom. This is especially important if the predecessor was extremely scummy. By embracing the reads of the scummy player, the person is essentially saying, "my predecessor wasn't scummy by thinking this". In other words, they're not trying to get a Fresh Start which many towns freely give to replacements.

You can be scummy and have your reads be correct. I don't think anyone thought Gerhard was scummy because of his reads.

I've observed it in others as well. I see pro-town players frequently employ the logic of their predecessors, and sum players just ignore their predecessor and ask the town to do the same. It might not be something we actively decide to do, but it happens.

Links, please.

There's also favorable interactions with WormyKrew. And the fact that he was legitimately scumhunting on Secret. Look at Captain's early posts, and you'll realize he was pushing Secret as scum--something which could only have come from a pro-town player reading Secret as scum.

But, as other people said, he was calling WK scum without calling for his lynch. Grade-A bussing.

WHY WOULD THE SCUM NK SOMEONE ONE OF THEIR MEMBERS HEAVILY WAS PUSHING AS SCUM?!??

Because Secret Project was not a suspect that could be maintained. He was just too pro-Town looking when WK flipped scum.

There was no point in saying this as scum. Contrary to popular belief, scum do not say obvious stuff like that, anymore. This was a town-reaction.

Why?

Dang, I wanted an actual reaction from Captain Corporal, I thought that would be obvious enough that nooone would unvote until he got a chance to post. Yes, I Alduskkel is a better lynch. CC is still a good candidate for tomorrow, though.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Alduskkel

How convenient. Wagon dies, go back to the convenient Alduskkel lynch.

If Jily is town we ought to look at who she was supposed to be targeting becuase if I were scum and I figured the vig would be shooting a town, I might just say screw it and let the shot go through...

In case you forgot, I believe jily was going to target alex.
---
Still have to get to read summaries. Argh. But I think explaining scum reads will prove more productive.

[Captain Corporal]

Ald.
If I get lynched today, and flip town, what then? Where will you go? You've been tunneling since I replaced in. Time to expand your views. Who would be my scumpartner?

[Alduskkel]

If you flip town I'll look at alex, obviously.

I don't really care to connect you to anyone who I think might be your scumpartner. If/When you flip scum there will be plenty of time to look at interactions. If you don't then whoops!! Huge waste of time looking at all those connections. So why bother? Interactions with WK are the most important... interactions right now.

[wierdalexv]

I don't fell like breaking apart quotes, so my answers are in

bolded italics

.

Ald's case on me is lolfail. Townpoints should NOT be given for that.

On the other hand, wierdalex also gives random, unexplained town points to Elsa in 1011. He just says he finds things about her genuine, without saying why they are genuine.

I think it's pretty obvious that I meant the way she came to the conclusion of no competing scum wagons. Not that I agree, but she seemed to mean it.

Yeah, but

why

did she seem to mean it? That's what I'm getting at here.

Look at the post. Everything she says in the post seemed genuine. I don't know how to explain it, that's just what I get from the tone.

Oh, and strictly speaking this is not part of my "case" on you UNLESS in the future Elsa flips scum.

OK, that makes more sense.

So probably scum in
{DarthYoshi; jilynne1991; Alduskkel}
Hm...changes a bit. With the jilynne-townslip, that means one of DarthYoshi and Alduskkel is probably scum, most likely Alduskkel; have you noticed the way that WK called him town and then [literally, I looked through ISO] never brought him up again?

What the hell is this? "Let's steal something from TS [which was flawed in the first place], imply that I came up with it*, and vote Ald over it."? This is really awful and is simply bandwagoning.

Lol. Just lol. Read the rest of the post, I made it pretty obvious why I thought so and I don't see where TS came to this.

What's even worse:

*The "have you noticed" part implies that no one has noticed it but wierdalex.

...

...

...

....
hehehehehe
....
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
...
That's actually hilarious.

No. Try again.

Yeah, I AtE'd here. I explained later, though.

@DarthYoshi: My point on Alduskkel being hypocritical depends on the reasoning for why WK was being avoided. I personally didn't get the WK case and was too busy defending myself (which is kind of embarrasing, I'm not too happy with my play this game).

Since when am I hypocritical? And waitaminuteweren'tyoucallingmetownearlier.

You're calling people out for people avoiding the WK wagon when you avoided the wagon yourself. Oh, and I think I explained my read-change.

I avoided the wagon for legitimate reasons. Funnily enough, plenty of people are willing to notice that I did at first defend WK but what isn't getting noticed is that I defended him for very good reasons; namely, the wagon on him was, at the time, almost without any reasons to back it up.

Well, it's completely useless to try to convince you that you had bad reasons. Everyone's reasons seem good to them.

/inB4 scumtell

I don't even know how to respond to that. I don't see how it's scummy to imply you came up with something when you really DID come up with something.

I don't know if you're faking this or not. Are you just not reading the thread closely?

I'm reading the thread closely, thank you very much. I don't see what you think I missed here.

Ald's not going to claim until he's kept at L-1 and someone threatens to hammer. Make it happen, now. LOCK HIM INTO A CLAIM HE CAN'T BACK OUT OF. Put the pressure on him. DON'T GIVE HIM THE TIME TO THINK OF A FAKECLAIM. If he's scum, MAKE HIM CLAIM BEFORE HE HAS THE DETAILS WORKED OUT--the flaws in his claim will nail him as scum.

Pfft. Trying to get me to claim for the sake of getting me to claim.

The Scumteam for Mini 1180 is WormyKrew, Alduskkel, and Soben.

When I die, or when Soben dies (presuming Soben is town), I am going to laugh. You get so dead sure of things Mastin -- and then bam, you're wrong. The irony is that it's happened before but you don't see it happening now. And you should remember, too. That's why you're mastin2 now and not Mastin.

You know what's going to happen? One of us is going to flip town. Then you'll be left with nothing because you are looking into nothing else right now. In a manner that perfectly describes the act of boring through the earth to create an elongated hole to some already decided destination. Or, more succinctly, tunneling.

This seems like a case of "the more I say it, the more true it is."

Completely true. One of you and Soben is going to flip town. (Hint: it's Soben.) Even both of you might.

I share these thoughts, claiming earlier is much more optimal than later as it allows time to look elsewhere whereas a last minute claim could potentially lead to a blitz vote occuring due to deadline issues and is something that needs to be avoided.

Alduskkel, I don't care if you prefer to refrain from claiming until intent to hammer is put forward, you need to claim in your next post. Refusal to do so will be treated as a scum-claim.

OTOH this actually does convince me I should claim.

I am a vanilla townie.

'K.

I'd also love to see them keep me alive, too. Because the longer I'm kept alive, the more dangerous I am. The more likely I am to screw them over.

Except you're wrong. If I were scum and not Alduskkel or Soben, then you'd be around for a long time because you're pushing a mislynch now and will probably be pushing one tomorrow.

I just think the one on Ald is much stronger, especially in light of him chainsaw-defending WK on D1 by casting suspicion on, like, the entire WK wagon.

Alright, this is the worst crap I have ever seen.

We've been over this.

I did NOT cast suspicion on the people on the WK wagon!! You said I did, I corrected you. This should be over.

BTW, CC went in a few days from saying he didn't see the case on Ald to putting Ald at L-1 and demanding a claim.

This is a good catch though.

1254-1258: Mostly good stuff.

You guys.

JUST LET ALD GET AWAY WITHOUT A SCRATCH. He's surviving, HE'S ESCAPED ATTENTION, exactly what I had warned you he would do.
The attention has been shifted from Ald (scum) onto Captain. (TOWN TOWN TOWN TOWN, OH SO VERY TOWN!)

And do you know who the primary driving force of this switch is?

Soben.

Geez this is an exaggeration. Yes, I am going to fade into the background Mastin even though I have been getting focus for a bunch of the day. Really, suspicions of me aren't so much dwindling a whole lot as people are considering other suspects.

If I survive today then I won't be surprised if I get lynched Day 3 or 4 anyway.

Gerhard. Let's start with him.
He begins his game voting WormyKrew. As an RVS, but still. Does that look like a bus in the RVS to you?

Weak. People bus in the RVS practically just as much as they don't.

He then immediately engages in legitimate scumhunting. He goes after Alex and locks onto Alex as scum immediately. This is not scum taking advantage of a weaker player. This is town, legitimately seeing something which looked scummy and pursuing it.

He doesn't lock into it. He votes jily the very next post.

Gerhard also commits a town-tell, by voting Jily after her claim. He thought she was scum, and didn't notice her claim. It's a minor tell, which you'd think would be null, but scum tend to read the thread closer and would instantly have noticed the claim, compared to town, who frequently miss details like that. It's also something you can't fake that well.

No. Scum don't read as closely because they don't care as much about scumhunting. Town examine details and look for every possibly scumtell. Well, the good ones at least.

There's also the fact that despite replacing out, he still put the work into the game and wanted to leave with the best he could give.

That's just called being nice.

I had defended Gerhard as town at the time, and he had a scumread on me. WHAT KIND OF SCUM CALLS THEIR DEFENDER SCUM? That's a signature (paranoid) town-move, extremely hard to fake.

Look, Mastin. I don't know if you know this, but as scum I try to be very genuine. I usually don't make stuff up just so I can hop onto a wagon or whatever. I try to see what I would find scummy as town and follow through with that. My point is that Gerhard can easily be someone like me. Someone who says what they think they'd think.

So it's not hard to fake.

And he uses my own tells (Tone, Motive, a little bit of Interaction) against me. I realize this doesn't seem significant and it probably was not intentional--but the fact that he used those three tells, against me, means that he was really scumhunting. Since (quite frankly) I can't fake seeing those tells in another. That scumhunting method is completely honest, truthful, and unbiased. Scum can't fake it, scum have trouble using it effectively. It's a signature town move.

Really? You can't fake that as scum? Link me the most recent finished scum game of yours, Mastin.

NINJAS: UNVOTE:

VOTE: ald

if ald flips scum we'll look at soben tommorow, K?

Err... Mastin convinces you just like that? What's wrong with what you said in your previous post? What's wrong with what alex said? What's wrong with what DY said? What's wrong with what Soben said?

Still, looks town enough. It'd be very easy to stay on CC at that point.

Enters with scumhunting,

CC did not enter with scumhunting. Or, at best, it was light and based on "feelings." (CC's words.)

He trusts in his predecessor's reads. This is a personal town-tell of mine. A signature scum move is to go completely against your (scummy) predecessor's views and take up an entirely new stance to (hopefully) become more favorable.

??? He does go against his predecessor's reads -- he feels Ironhead is town.

A TOWN signature is to trust entirely in your predecessor and acknowledge their wisdom.

I'm glad you're not replacing jilynne.

A TOWN signature is to trust entirely in your predecessor and acknowledge their wisdom. This is especially important if the predecessor was extremely scummy. By embracing the reads of the scummy player, the person is essentially saying, "my predecessor wasn't scummy by thinking this". In other words, they're not trying to get a Fresh Start which many towns freely give to replacements.

You can be scummy and have your reads be correct. I don't think anyone thought Gerhard was scummy because of his reads.

I've observed it in others as well. I see pro-town players frequently employ the logic of their predecessors, and sum players just ignore their predecessor and ask the town to do the same. It might not be something we actively decide to do, but it happens.

Links, please.

There's also favorable interactions with WormyKrew. And the fact that he was legitimately scumhunting on Secret. Look at Captain's early posts, and you'll realize he was pushing Secret as scum--something which could only have come from a pro-town player reading Secret as scum.

But, as other people said, he was calling WK scum without calling for his lynch. Grade-A bussing.

WHY WOULD THE SCUM NK SOMEONE ONE OF THEIR MEMBERS HEAVILY WAS PUSHING AS SCUM?!??

Because Secret Project was not a suspect that could be maintained. He was just too pro-Town looking when WK flipped scum.

There was no point in saying this as scum. Contrary to popular belief, scum do not say obvious stuff like that, anymore. This was a town-reaction.

Why?

Dang, I wanted an actual reaction from Captain Corporal, I thought that would be obvious enough that nooone would unvote until he got a chance to post. Yes, I Alduskkel is a better lynch. CC is still a good candidate for tomorrow, though.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Alduskkel

How convenient. Wagon dies, go back to the convenient Alduskkel lynch.

If Jily is town we ought to look at who she was supposed to be targeting becuase if I were scum and I figured the vig would be shooting a town, I might just say screw it and let the shot go through...

In case you forgot, I believe jily was going to target alex.
---
Still have to get to read summaries. Argh. But I think explaining scum reads will prove more productive.

I'm going to let others respond to their own argument first, so they can't just say what I say and get away with it.

[DarthYoshi]

Okay, I'm still plowing through Ald's latest wall, but I wanted to say two things here--

First, we have two VT claims out right now, and we need to lynch one of them. Having three claims in a day is bad for any town, and if on the off chance both Ald and CC are telling the truth, scum have just narrowed the potential pool of PRs considerably.

Second, I re-read Gerhard, and I actually don't agree with Mastin that Gerhard's play was that townish. Yes, I did call Gerhard's jily vote a towntell, but after that, GK concerned himself only with justifying his own play before replacing out. Seriously, after parking his vote on jily, he does no scumhunting at all and then replaces out. And besides, I think RVS can and is used by scum to pretend to distance from buddies, so I'm not inclined to read much of anything townish into GK's RVS vote of WK, especially when GK doesn't actually interact with any other players besides Jily (compartmentalized D1 interactions is another significant scumtell for me).

Vote goes back on CC.

People on the wierdalex wagon, please join either the CC or Ald wagons. We don't need a third claim today.

Vote: Captain Corporal.

Also--in case I didn't say so explicitly, I have returned from limited access.