Verbose Mafia 2 - Post or Perish (Game Over)

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

DrippingGoofball: 5 (Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, Fritzler, Seol, Thok)
Fritzler: 4 (mathcam, mikeburnfire, petroleumjelly, Tamuz)
Turbovolver: 3 (Fiasco, Kelly Chen, PookyTheMagicalBear)
Adele: 2 (Commodore Amazing, DrippingGoofball)
mathcam: 1 (VitaminR)

Players Nominated: Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, DrippingGoofball, Fritzler, Kelly Chen, mathcam, mikeburnfire, Tamuz, Turbovolver

[Turbovolver]

Pooky, I didn't originally go after Adele for such behaviour because I didn't pick up on it. That's why when Tamuz pointed it out I was willing to follow for the moment.

As for me "accusing you of not being solid with your suspicions of me", you'll see that the comments I made were based on the nomination phase, and not recent events. So, I wasn't talking about your suspicions of me.

As for the actual details behind my early vote on Adele, I took Tamuz's word for it when he made his case. I don't think scum would gain anything by outright lying about events, so taking his words at face value seemed fair enough. If there was a problem with the argument, go bark up Tamuz's tree. I don't care if that sounds scummy... I've already given my own suspicions and I'm not even voting for Adele anymore so it's not like I'm trying to lynch Adele but blame Tamuz.

And yes Pooky, I've done a bit of roleplaying. That does not make me a hypocrite when I call you out for being a nonentity, because I've also contributed heavily to the

real

discussions this group has had. As for what I want comments on... it doesn't matter anymore. The fact remains that, at least during the nomination phase, you were a cipher.

Pooky, if there are points of yours I've misrepresented or failed to address, please bring them up again. I'll do my best to answer your concerns. Vague references like this are very suspicious if you cant back them up.


As for the race card shenanigans... they were meaningless. I just wanted to see how The Silent Speaker would respond. Perhaps I've signed my death warrant with such admissions, but it's the truth. Sorry if I got a bit extreme there. The four of spades thing was an in-joke that nobody here would understand.

Vote: mathcam

[SpamWise]

"SpamWise chose a rather cozy time to nominate the early bandwagon leader (Kelly Chen), just because, in his words, he liked the feel. Don't like that. Later, he says he could "hazard a guess" to what I'm thinking, and follows up my nomination. Considering he later mentioned he thought I had extra information, this seems like an outright lie. His nomination of Mathcam would be a guilt-free way to send an innocent to the lynching block, though."

Well, if you do not like the way I followed you into nominating mathcam, I do not like the way you gave the impression there was something you knew that the rest of us did not. I was not the only person confused by your words. In my eyes, the tenuous way you nominated for Mathcam in the first place, followed up with your excuse that "it was only a hunch" does not bode well with me. In your own words, it would be a guilt-free way to send an innocent to the lynching block. I would vote for you right now, but I do not know what your ability entails, and there is a chance it can prove your innocence.

At the time when I joined the nomwagon on Kelly Chen, I did not have a very positive read on her. At the moment I have a more positive read on her, but nothing can be taken for granted here.

And to discuss your comments about my "parroting" of Pooky dear Commodore, it's not so much that I am convinced that he is not a killer, but I think you'll agree with me when I say his reasoning so far seems very good to me, much like that of Pythagoras himself.

What I find interesting is that of the nine people on the lynching block, only five have received any votes. Most interesting is that of the four who have not received any votes, is the two who were leading the tally of nominations early on Kelly Chen and mikeburnfire. I am not sure how much stock to place in this. I believe it is because they have defended themselves sufficiently to not warrant any votes. Curious, curious indeed.

[SpamWise]

Again I am undone by the lack of speed with which I speak. Well, as Turbovolver has admitted what he has done, it undoes my reason for not voting for him. But his most recent actions make me doubt the belief that he is a killer. To be honest, I find it rather eccentric. Although it is not a proof of his innoncence, I am not certain that it is an indication he is a killer. Again you target mathcam, this time with a vote. Can you be more specific about why you are voting for him this time Turbovolver? Or is it your hunch?

[Turbovolver]

I must say, I was rather heartened by your trust in my SpamWise. But given that you tried to defend your possible lie with an attack on me (instead of an explanation), I cant help thinking that you are merely trying to trick me into backing down. I suppose all I can say is that I have my eye on you, SpamWise.

The people I am most suspicious of aren't available to be voted. We probably have managed to nominate at least one killer, and in my eyes our best bet is Mathcam. I summarised my reasons for the vote back when I looked at all of the pre-nomination behaviour.

And yes, I probably have been a bit eccentric. Better than schizophrenic, no?

I will summarise my thoughts on the behaviour of us all post-nomination stage a bit later, and I'll decide where to go from there. It might no longer be Mathcam.

[DrippingGoofball]

I have made my claim, a few others have as well. My claim is consistent with the claims that followed. Skeptics might be convinced by the Great Agnostic's repeated use of some words, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Some people feel that on account on my historical record, I can be viewed as a "good guy." This view may change as the game evolves and the setup becomes clearer. But for now it would be difficult to fit Ingersoll as a bad sort of fellow.

Why are five people choosing to overlook my contribution to educating people and my striving for a better society? It might be a good idea to examine this line of argument today, or tomorrow if it becomes too late. But it is revealing that they would be willing to get rid of someone who did nothing but good. They may not like me personally, my debating style, my strategy, my flourish, my love of hyperbole, or my world view. That they wish me dead should raise some alarm among others that labor, and especially give long speeches, to improve the world.

I feel the same for people that vote for Fritzler. Fritzler's posts have been nothing but, er, Fritzler-ish. Yes, he is unconventional, no, he is not stuffy, but why condemn him? It is good to accept each other for what we are. We can debate it all we wish; but we should accept our inborn nature. I find the reasoning given for Fritzler's votes to be frivolous, vague, and subjective at best.

I also think that Turbovolver is arguing in earnest, I feel that he is motivated by the fire of Truth and a genuine desire to uncover Evil. I am not surprised that the maudlin, libidinous, slick Pooky is voting for him.

I see that Adele, CES, Pooky, and a host of others are very cautious in avoiding to put themselves forward for examination, but are rather swift and cunning with their votes.

[Fiasco]

Just in case anyone missed it, Turbovolver lied about his role abilities and made us wait for one third of the voting phase before revealing his lie. His reason? To see how the Silent Speaker would react. That didn't turn out to be useful. Meanwhile, votes have suddenly started piling up on DrippingGoofball, who might have been clumsy in not reading the rules and perhaps discussing the setup unnecessarily, but who should get some credit for having a plausible name claim and a fitting restriction. (Violating it pre-game didn't help, though.) Do those of you on her bandwagon think she's not Ingersoll, or do you think she's Ingersoll but evil anyway?

I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record, but we don't have much time left to coordinate our votes. As I see it, we have three options: One, push someone for a role claim and leave enough time to bandwagon someone else. Two, lynch someone regardless of their role claim. Three, don't lynch anyone. The third option is seen as a bad thing, the second risks lynching an important role, and it's starting to look doubtful whether we'll have the time for the first option.

I don't think the Mathcam wagon is based on anything.

I've changed my mind on Fritzler a bit and would probably join a lynch if given the direct choice. As far as I can tell he hasn't contributed anything meaningful yet; maybe he always behaves like this (I don't think so -- I've seen him be more useful and less annoying in the past), but if this is true, then part of the reason is that he can get away with it, because everyone says "oh, he always behaves like this". He should give us some logical reasoning on who is the best lynch, and why.

Vote stands, though.

[VitaminR]

I voted mathcam when I thought Turbo was scummier, because I was waiting to see what his ability would do. NOTHING, apparently.

I'm inclined to believe DrippingGoofball's claim at this point. I'm not sure why she is the vote leader. In my eyes, Turbo's actions earlier this phase stand out in scumminess. I don't see why lying about a possible ability gets him off the hook.

Unvote: mathcam, Vote: Turbovolver

[Adele]

I have no faith in DrippingGoofball. She has claimed and presented evidence that there might be a limited list of people we could possibly be - was this to make it appear that there were no safe claims, that it would be a foolish risk to lie? But if she were actually one of the wicked and knew, due to her real name or that of one of her compatriots, that this list was

not

complete, then her action would make better sense. I must watch her actions and ask, would one of my enemies benefit from this as a pretense?

Her failure to have followed her restriction when we first were taken here also reflects badly on her - she asks us to believe that her understanding of several of the rules of this place was very, very shaky. After the first error was discovered, I would have expected her to reacquaint herself with the rules with an eye to detail. When these "misunderstandings" permit her to actions that she would, presumably, not usually perform when a trustworthy character... I do not trust her.

Malcolm X had many flaws. However, in his later life he argued many, many times that violence is appropriate in self-defence, but otherwise inappropriate. If he is among us, I would expect him to have a darker eye for the aggressors apparently hidden in our midst. In other words, I am somewhat inclined to trust him, although I would request that people not deliberately mislead - it is too close to lying for my comfort, at least.

[the silent speaker]

Turbovolver has behaved bizarrely the entire voting phase, in my opinion. He has been hypocritical, irrational -- in marked contrast to his behavior in the nomination phase, during which he kept his cool throughout -- and extremely overagressive toward any who disagreed with him or he disagreed with. The whole four of spades race card issue didn't help matters, either. That said, I have a gut feeling he is who he claims to be: Malcolm X, protown. That's why I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt and not voted him.

DrippingGoofball has been at times just as questionable, but I have the same kind of gut feeling. I don't know whether her easy concession of my point regarding "mostly random" was out of innocence or as a calculated maneuver to disarm my suspicions. I'll let her be for now.

I don't think any more people should claim whether or not they are on DrippingGoofball's list. A couple of people have already denied it, so the principle is established that it isn't exhaustive and that should suffice.

Mikeburnfire, you said, "We're undoubtedly doomed to kill an innocent today." As we have nine potential lynches, I wonder how you know this. Surely the odds of the nine most suspicious people all being protown are astronomical... unless you know who the conspirators are, and they steered the nominations.

Hypothesis: Suppose we take it as assumed that mike's comment was indeed a slipup, and he, but none of the other eight, are in fact killers. Given this, for the scum to have steered the lynches, the ones to be destroyed are mikeburnfire, obviously; the people who nominated three on the block but are not themselves nominees, to wit SpamWise and Commodore Amazing (but not LoudmouthLee, as he nominated mike himself) -- no other way can their six nominees be accounted for; and in order to include the nominations of mathcam and Tamuz, VitaminR (not seol, as he nominated Commodore Amazing).

Even if the above analysis is incorrect, which it may well be, mikeburnfire's potential "tell" is vote-worthy anyway; and if he

is

scum, the other three will jump in scumminess to my eyes. I have found my vote, methinks.

Vote: mikeburnfire.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Turbovolver's behaviour is too blatant for me to ignore. Confusion and distraction are the evildoers' greatest allies right now. If this day ends without a decision, then I know what the main cause was. Yes, he claimed to be Malcolm X, but I have seen no indication that he is on the island with us. The claim upon itself is not sufficient.

unvote: DrippingGoofball, vote: Turbovolver

[Mr. Grey]

Mod Note:

LoudmouthLee and Seol have not posted in the fifth real-time day of the game Day, and have therefore failed the Posting Requirements.

[Fritzler]

Adele, I agree with you, however I could also see Malcom X as some sort of SK. Fact is, I really like X too. (Off topic again: on the PE CD there's a track about him.)

But anyways, so Mathcam, you think I'm scum because I offered to go with the towns plan of allowing the max on the lynching block? I wanted to shift around so we could have the maximum there, but I didnt know what exactly needed to be done.

TA ta.

[Werebear]

OK, I see by my now-reset-to-the-proper-time-zone watch that we have about 24 hours before our captor comes and puts us to bed. At the moment, I'm believing Mr. Goofball. So tomorrow, unless I hear something that changes my mind, I'm going to put my vote on the next candidate in line that's roused my suspicious, Turbovolver. Of course, knowing what his role does isn't a bad start. If I missed him giving his role description, I apologize, right now I don't really have time to go back and check.

[Turbovolver]

Yes, I suppose I did mislead. I expected a much stronger reaction from The Silent Speaker, and it appears I was wrong to do so. Of course, perhaps the fact that his reaction was

so

reserved tells us something.

Of course, many people said they only weren't voting me because of the ability, so I fully expect to receive some votes. It was never intended as a self-preservation move, though.

I don't feel much of the DrippingGoofball or Fritzler bandwagons, so I will not participate in those.

And I'm pretty sure I was hiting at my true character long before it looked like everyone had some sort of political role, so that should lend credence to my claim that I am Malcolm X. Of course some people think Malcolm X could be evil, which is another matter entirely.

[mikeburnfire]

I was unopposed to a Turbovolver lynch before this race card fiasco happened, and am not dettered at all by the recent interactions.

Silent Speaker, how do I know for a fact we will lynch an innocent today? Because it's the first day. In the 10~or~so games that I've played only one involved lynching a scum on the first day, and I think the odds are even worse in a group this large. So while I'm not 100% sure we're going to lynch an innocent today... that's what we're going to do. But, hey, there's still a slim chance I'm willing to fight for.

LML and Seol seem to be in hot water... which is a shame. Are they going to be killed now? If so, it'd be a shame. From experience, I know LML and Seol to have grand intuition when it comes to finding scum.

Fritzler ignored me, so I'll keep my vote where it is. Being ignored is aggitating.

Oh, wait.. I just noticed something. Silent Speaker, when you accused me of being scum, you said that after you killed me "the other three will jump in scumminess to my eyes". How do you know exactly how many scum are in the game? It's a shame you're not eligible for lynching, or else I'd have to switch my vote in your direction.

[Turbovolver]

I like the look of TSS a bit better now. He voted MikeBurnFire based on a "tell" which was pretty much rubbish, but it was the first vote and unlikely to turn into a bandwagon before deadline. So either TSS is extremely cunning, or he really is trying to find our killers as an individual.

But the possible slip about the number of killers is rather damning... I guess I'll wait for him to weigh in again on this before I make up my mind about him.

Pooky and Mathcam are still scum, though. Execute them!

[Fritzler]

Mike burnfire, yo udidn't ask me to respond to you. How then was I supposed to know that I should have? If you want to know, the reason I joined, was because I want to lynch someone. REally that is the only reason. I don't know if you know this but Ilike killing people.

Fritz goes back, confident he did a good job being "verbose". Fritz takes a couple shots. Have fun G's.

I'll be rihgt over hurrr.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm concerned that there's not a lot of time left to get a majority. I believe Turbovolver is the leader with just 5 votes, and Goofball and Fritzler have 4 each. Hell doth have a fiery place for those who will not move/place their vote! Not to be pushy. But be thou wary.

I find silent speaker's interest in voting mikeburnfire, at this point and for that reasoning, to be fishy. Particularly as his criticism of Turbovolver in the same speech seemed more persuasive to me, and a vote that direction would be more likely to be effective.

[Tamuz]

Indeed, There is little time. I would be happy for Turbo or Fritz, as I said earlier that I would wait for the raise card to play out before rejudging Turbo.
He totally failed to meet any belief of mine.
Thats reason 1
Time is reason 2
and his following of me happens to be reason 3.

I would still be happy with Adele as a lynch, but we can't really do that, now can we. However, the way Turbo jumped onto my points without much help, and then acted extremly sporadic with the race card and the claim. Yeah, all I have to say. Plus, Malcolm isn't exactly a very GOOD person.

unvote: Fritzler
vote: TurboVolver

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Is anyone else finding Turbovolver's arguments incredibly difficult to follow?

As for me "accusing you of not being solid with your suspicions of me", you'll see that the comments I made were based on the nomination phase, and not recent events. So, I wasn't talking about your suspicions of me.

So you expected me to begin the game with solid suspicions in the nominations phase before we've yet had a chance to converse much? Perhaps you expect me to be a psychic? Starting games with solid suspicions before a chance to really get information or see what people say, that's a

bias

As for the actual details behind my early vote on Adele, I took Tamuz's word for it when he made his case. I don't think scum would gain anything by outright lying about events, so taking his words at face value seemed fair enough. If there was a problem with the argument, go bark up Tamuz's tree. I don't care if that sounds scummy... I've already given my own suspicions and I'm not even voting for Adele anymore so it's not like I'm trying to lynch Adele but blame Tamuz.

Why would you take Tamuz's word for it instead of actually looking it up yourself? Voting doesn't even count for anything until Friday, so what do YOU have to gain by voting before you've had a chance to actually evaluate his argument? As soon as you made your vote you were preemptively passing the buck on to Tamuz.

And yes Pooky, I've done a bit of roleplaying. That does not make me a hypocrite when I call you out for being a nonentity, because I've also contributed heavily to the real discussions this group has had. As for what I want comments on... it doesn't matter anymore. The fact remains that, at least during the nomination phase, you were a cipher.

Well if you're going to accuse me of skipping out on these real discussions that you've participated in, please share with me what they are so that I can address your concerns. Making such general attacks upon me are incredibly pointless and quite suspicious.

Pooky, if there are points of yours I've misrepresented or failed to address, please bring them up again. I'll do my best to answer your concerns. Vague references like this are very suspicious if you cant back them up.

I did bring them up, I was very specific in post 273 about why I found you suspicious, your response to my specific allegations has been nonexistent and your retaliatory remark about me making vague references is part of a trend of attack based commentary from you that do little to address the points raised against you.

As for the race card shenanigans... they were meaningless. I just wanted to see how The Silent Speaker would respond. Perhaps I've signed my death warrant with such admissions, but it's the truth. Sorry if I got a bit extreme there. The four of spades thing was an in-joke that nobody here would understand.

.... We have three days to find a player to lynch, and you've decided to waste our time with meaningless shenaningans? TSS is voting based on a "tell" is "rubbish", what exactly are you calling me and mathcam scum based upon?

[LoudmouthLee]

I apologize, for I haven't been around. I would like to know why I'm in hot water. Perhaps it was my vote on Adele, and my rationale. Perhaps it was my lack of posting lately. Regardless, it seems rather scary that, ultimately, I've fallen under suspicion here. I'm not even nominated.

The truth of the matter remains... Turbovolver perpetuated a certain situation in which he played his "race card" that gambit, although foolish, seeming would bring way too much heat to someone who was scum. Yes, yes... WIFOM, but still... I will NOT be voting for Turbovolver at this point, or at all during this nomination day.

By vote, in my humble opinion, is safest with the person who IS indeed voting Turbovolver for his actions. I like CES the best, and that will be exactly where I levy my vote.

Vote: CES

[Commodore Amazing]

I do not support a lynch of people who claim early. I haven't seen much from Turbovolver that deserves a lynch.

I'd like to keep my vote on Adele, and I encourage people who are looking for a better option that Turbovolver to join me.

On the other hand, I'm thinking about joining the Turbovolver wagon just to look really shady so that the mafia can use me as a scapegoat tomorrow. This is kind of a new strategy; I know I'll be able to defend whatever to do as long as I'm not a killer, so I might as well try to avoid mafia kills as well as town lynches, right? And it's not like the town can lynch me once nominations are closed.

Anyway, no one's really listening to me anyway. I'll keep my vote on Adele for now, but if it looks like no one's getting lynched... well, I'd obviously prefer to take out Turbovolver than waste a day of killing potential scumbags.

[mathcam]

Turbovolver: Your style of speech is extremely maddening. You have now three times proclaimed with some sense of finality that I am scum. Each time you have previously been called out on it, you have retracted your statement via one mechanism or another. Yet you continue to speak in such a manner! Your race card
was yet another example of your propensity for attempting to get the town to
believe something that wasn't true, and further, violated the rules about shouting set down by our captors! And then on top of all of this, you have the audacity to complain that no one takes your posts seriously enough, when it's become perfectly clear that anything you say is likely not to be true.

You are obviously entitled to your suspicions, of me or of anyone else, but for the sake of communicating these ideas with your fellow captives, perhaps you could lean to speak in a language that more accurately reflects the truth.

This said, Turbovolver is fairly far down my list of potential killers. He's put himself in a rather silly situation for a scum to be in, and shows no sign of backing down.

Cam

[mathcam]

LML: I think the hot water reference was only in regards to your lack of participation in our discussions, as noted by Mr. Grey. In other news, do you really think your vote for CES is being productive?

I would prefer to lynch any of several candidates over lynching Turbovolver (though I certainly wouldn't be opposed to scum killing Turbovolver over night...*wink wink*). Among these, Fritzler is in the lead, followed by DrippingGoofball, and more recently, MBF. I think TSS had a good point on MBF.

Fritzler: My arguments against you is not that you're trying to help the town, as we're

all

trying to do that, or at least trying to look like we're trying to do that. My argument is that it looks like you were trying too hard with that post.

Cam