TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[ThAdmiral]

@leonshade: can I haz links to some of your other games pls?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14413
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14959

The first one is my very first game from a year ago, the second one is a game I had to replace out of early on. Other than those two, I don't have normal completed games to link to. I do have a few finished marathon games, which I will link to if requested.

Thanks, will check them out. Obviously since it is only two games and you replaced out in one it is not a whole lot to go off, but it might help.

L-2 is not L-1, but that's nitpicking I guess.

In fact I would argue you shouldn't claim until -1 AND someone has expressed willingness to hammer.

But scum claim PRs just as often as town, if not more, right? Does it really mean anything?

Tracker is very hard to fake. He could be a scum tracker, but he would still be providing town with tracking information.
Right now he's got the benefit of the doubt though.

another vifam vote probably from his other head, but it shows that he is BWing for the sake of sticking with the crowd. This was right after the next wave of vifam votes. It also shows that the two heads aren't sharing their reads and scumtells, possibly because they don't need to scumhunt because they are in fact scum.

I like this angle.

Meransiel's lurking is null, it doesn't play towards town or scum's win-con (objectively speaking). It's anti-town, it's not 'scummy'.

Bingo.
That being said...

@ meransiel: when did decide not to participate day 1? Were you lynched a few times? If so the answer isn't to abstain, it's to get better at surviving. What you're doing is the cheap, easy, cowardly way out. You're basically throwing the towel in and saying: "I'm not good enough, so I'm not going to even bother".

[ZeL1nK]

Dear God. Do people want to give more input than, "KJ is being silly, he should just believe Leon is town like the rest of us."?

killer, I personally don't care whether you agree with my read, but your case on Leon is stretching.

- Scum fabricate excuses to claim that they find someone suspicious.
- Scum uses manipulation and deceit to achieve their nefarious ends.
- Scum try to look suspicious of someone that is in no danger of being lynched so they are uninvolved with the lynch of a townie.
- Scum need to look like they are trying to catch scum.

Like yeah, these are valid points in general, but trying to apply them to Leon is stretching.

The main reason I think he's probably town is mostly to do with nuances in his posts that give me town vibes. He's also done nothing that really stands out and makes me think he's scum, so bonus points there, considering how many people are begging to be lynched right now.

[Zinger2099]

No, Zinger, you're not doing anything.

You are wrong.

Now you could say I wasn't doing anything

helpful

(which would be an opinion), but I am still posting. That

IS

doing something.

I hope you feel like your bashing your head against a brick wall. That is totally what I am going for.

[silverdrummer]

I see your reasoning on Pine and that we need to place more pressure on him, but there is something that makes me more line ant on him, it has to do with an ongoing game so I can't really talk about it yet. I think the game will be over within a week, but I don't really know for sure. Of course this thing won't excuse his absence for that long anyways so it's not important for now.

In his first post he goes "oh whoops, /confirm, i'll catch up over lunch" ... this doesn't happen
In his second post he goes "Oh this has been "hell week" blah blah blah, I'm going to start catching up now"

He's lurking and telling lies as excuses because he had enough time to post in other games.

His ongoing game is no excuse to lie (or as I like to say, make a politician promise).

@Silver: you still haven't explained why Pine is scum. Your "case" on him seems to just basically be that he is a lurker

*stares at vollkan angrily*
*again expresses general disdain towards Pine*
*suggests you move your vote to Pine*

[ThAdmiral]

@ volkan: I know you've addressed this before in another game but how does your number system deal with lurkers? They wouldn't get points as they aren't saying anything.

[Junpei]

I apologize for not knowing about there being no Jester. You see, I actually replaced in and I never knew he said there was no Jester. Regardless I'm not going to waste my lynch on him. I still think vigilante should go after him and we should make a more lucrative lynch. So far lynching him just makes it easier for town, but I'd rather have a whole town decide on a different lynch that might take more thought and have the guy with the gun go apeshit on the lurker. Zinger is someone I will lynch as well. His posts have no content.

Zinger you are doing nothing to help town and you have done nothing to help town in the past. That is a fact, you are nothing more than an obstacle in our way, and you look like mafia.

[Junpei]

Oh yeah also ThAdmiral, just to respond to that one bit in your post, waiting for L-1 would have been dangerous. I knew that I was tracker and that there is no way this BW was going tot turn around just because I replaced in. People were going v/la and it was very close to a lynch.

[vezokpiraka]

unvote
vote zinger

I know both zinger and meransiel post on day 1 and make cases.

Right now neither of them does that and just says they are bored. Something is afoot. I believe meran because even if he posts he doesn't post that much on day 1 , but zinger does.

You just contradicted yourself.

First you said meransiel does "post on day 1 and make cases". Then you say "even if he posts he doesn't post that much on day 1"

I have no idea what I meant to say there.

[Nero Cain]

pvt is 213 tell us all to hold off on the Vifam wagon then states he's going to look for weak reasoning.

edit: Hasn't been on yet

I don't like Silverdrummers vote on vifam in 285. Nowhere did he mention Vifam being a scum read. So I don't understand the point of the vote.

unvote

Why would you claim unprovoked?

For the sake of the argument Vifam's slot is town. Knowing that the slot was town would mean Jun doesn't want the slot to get lynched and I don't see any reason why he had to wait until L-1 or until someone asked him to claim. I really don't like this.

@Izak why are you voting the Meran slot. I agree that his "I don't post on day 1" is anti-town and even worse when it contridicts his day 1 play in another game we played

I'm still hating Cherve's lurking. Ignoring a game while post in another threads is a big scumtell for me.

vote: Cherve

Other than Chevre, I get bad vibes from Lenon, Rodion, Silver drummer and goomba

[Zinger2099]

@Junpei, it's Day 1. Gimme a break. I see nothing that isn't just people jumping to conclusions or circumstantial.

Day 1 cases are almost always a flop. All that really matters is that we keep people talking so there is something to look back at during the following days.

[silverdrummer]

@nero

I'm still hating Cherve's lurking. Ignoring a game while post in another threads is a big scumtell for me.

vote: Cherve

Other than Chevre, I get bad vibes from Lenon, Rodion, Silver drummer and goomba

Why are you picking Cherve when Pine is doing the same exact thing? Why don't you get bad vibes from him?

[Junpei]

@Junpei, it's Day 1. Gimme a break. I see nothing that isn't just people jumping to conclusions or circumstantial.

Day 1 cases are almost always a flop. All that really matters is that we keep people talking so there is something to look back at during the following days.

Agreed.

So keep talking, but this time, post content. You know, the kind where you post reads and explain them and tell us your opinions on things we've done. Right now you aren't looking good and you are looking like Meran except that you are trying to hide your contentless expedition. I don't know which is worse but I do know one thing, and that is that you are going to be killed eventually if you don't put some more effort into the game.

When I said agreed I lied by the way, I actually think that we can catch scum day 1, and I don't see why you don't, perhaps you're overconfident? Statistically speaking most d1 cases will be flops but that doesn't mean all of them have to be. So start working and show that you're scumhunting.

@Nero that quote is all messed up, Leonshade said "Why would you claim unprovoked?" not me. I know that your post shows that you know that, but so others know, Leon said that.

[Nero Cain]

@nero

I'm still hating Cherve's lurking. Ignoring a game while post in another threads is a big scumtell for me.

vote: Cherve

Other than Chevre, I get bad vibes from Lenon, Rodion, Silver drummer and goomba

Why are you picking Cherve when Pine is doing the same exact thing? Why don't you get bad vibes from him?

You're totally right. He is. The only thing I can say is that I continue to see Chevre read the thread but not post. But thank you for pointing out Pine's lurking.

But this begs the guestion Why did you decide to point out the flaw in my post instead of adress my claim that your slot is scummy b/c you never had a scum read on Vifam but voted him anyway?

[silverdrummer]

But this begs the guestion Why did you decide to point out the flaw in my post instead of adress my claim that your slot is scummy b/c you never had a scum read on Vifam but voted him anyway?

Other head did that, I didn't see the Vifam wagon at all.

so... ask him?

[Junpei]

But this begs the guestion Why did you decide to point out the flaw in my post instead of adress my claim that your slot is scummy b/c you never had a scum read on Vifam but voted him anyway?

Other head did that, I didn't see the Vifam wagon at all.

so... ask him?

You two don't discuss your reads and opinions together?

[Chevre]

*vifams reads*

UNVOTE: VOTE: vifam Scum like to keep options open; you really think all those people are scum? plus the people you didnt mention are presumably null.

~hip

Yeah, maybe I went a little overboard with my reads there. I should mull over them so more :X

At first I thought 3IF was overreacting a bit, then I saw that Vifam was so easily swayed by 3IF's opinion. A town would stick to their guns and not change their mind due to a simple statement such as this.

...
We will unvote, vote Chevre. Enters, and makes a completely random vote, totally ignoring the somewhat more relevant vezok stuff that was already happening, then unvotes without coming up with a new one, and makes a comment about the nameclaim stuff that was already resolved. We're not seeing any pressing scumhunting motivation from that slot. Unvote, vote: Chevre.
...

I ignored because, really, what else was there to say? vezok's idea was a bad one, and plenty of people had already said that. As for the last part of this excerpt of your post, I'll be honest: I didn't have any motivation. When I read those first five pages and saw such a mess, I didn't want to come back and try to sift through it. This isn't a town or scum tell, it's a human being tell.

...
The point of the Vezok wagon wasn’t to pressure Vezok. You understand that, right?

It was to gauge the reaction of other players based on how they react to said wagon.
...

Rereading this, it doesn't make sense from an individual standpoint. A wagon must consist of multiple players in this game, so the point couldn't have totally collectively been to gauge the reaction of other players, unless you're all some sort of hive mind.

You know that guy you see going into the convenience store when you stop off at that little town on the way to grandma's house? A sort of shifty looking fella who buys a pack of smokes, a couple of lotto scratchers and a tall boy at ten in the morning? The kind of guy you wait for to come out before you and your family go in? Well, that guy is me. My name is Earl. And if you took the time to really get to know me, find out what kind of person I truly am instead of just stereotyping me because of the way I look, well, you'd be wasting your time, because I'm exactly who you think I am. Hell, I'll pretty much steal anything that isn't nailed down.

I'm really truly surprised more people aren't noticing this. I mean, yeah, he foolishly claimed, but the paragraph of claiming reads more like an anti-town role.

IRRELEVANT: All the talk of "blatant sheeping" made me think "bleatant sheeping," and I chuckled a little.

Not wanting to headclaim is about as anti-town as it gets.

Agreed. Personally, I think hydras are unfair and I really don't see the point in them anyway.

...
Townies have an incentive to read every single post in a game, as every post brings them close to their goal of lynching all anti-town. Mafia will often skim the posts and only look for subjects they can bring the town's attention to. The joke was fine. I found the fact that he didn't respond to the question more scummy than anything else, as I feel a townie wouldn't have missed a question directly pointed at them.
...

I cannot personally hold this as true. A true townie, whose life was somehow threatened, would definitely read all posts; however, as we are human beings on a site where our life is not threatened and our win/loss record doesn't even matter that much, tend to skim every once in a while out of sheer laziness.

1. I have never, ever, ever seen a townie label their vote as being in RVS. Have you ever done this before? Have you even seen other townies do this before?

(this is so not in the right spot in chronological order; It is originally from Post #106)

But yeah, I think tons of people have done it. Starting with something like

Random vote:

I think it's also a generalization to mentally label a vote as RVS if the reason is ludicrous, such as characters in the username or past experiences.

Pappums Leather Jacket in 216 (his spiel on the correct definition of policy lynch): That may have been the definition of ago, but it's perfectly reasonable for a society to morph and mold the definition as time passes. It now predominantly means what killerjester defined it as.
Oh, and while I'm speaking to you: Could you tag your posts with who is posting at the time? I can usually differentiate, but I want to be entirely sure.

...
I disagree with this. Yes I think it fairly obstinate to refuse a head claim but I've been in 2 games where the hydra was asked to claim and both refused. In one game the hydra flipped scum; in the other they flipped town. So I see ZeL's refusal null.
...

This isn't exactly why we want the heads to claim. You are saying that a hydra claiming or not claiming heads has no impact on it's role, this is true. However, we are wanting them to claim so that one can use meta to reference past games if they so wish.

I don't like Vifam trying to deflect the suspicion on him onto someone else, but I'm going to keep my vote on the Jilynne slot for now. Vifam has enough votes on him at the moment, and I want to keep a close eye on whoever will replace Jil.

Attempt to distance yourself from the bandwagon, noted.

VOTE: Leonshade

I agree with this a whole bunch, considering that Leonshade still wanted to stay on the other wagon even after Jilynne had announced her need to be replaced in the thread.

...

ZeL1nK claimed he would kill me Night 1 before I had said ANYTHING in this game what-so-ever.

Ah, nope.

You'd posted in this thread when I said that.

Also, unvote.

That's it?

Still, that's what fueled you to want to vig him? It doesn't really add up.

So I did a search on Vifam. This appears to be the only game he wanted to replace out of. Also, he did it by PMing the mod and made no public announcement in the thread.

Here is what I think about Meransiel. She states that she doesn't care about Day 1, yet she obviously checking the thread for reactions, otherwise she wouldn't be making replies so hastily. Therefore, some part of her mentality is invested in this game, more than she wants to believe.

Vote: Meransiel

, with my other suspects being Leonshade and Junpei/Vifam.

You're totally right. He is. The only thing I can say is that I continue to see Chevre read the thread but not post. But thank you for pointing out Pine's lurking.

You are lying. I've only looked in this thread once. I've already stated that I was demotivated by the first 5 pages. But now I'm glad I finally returned, this is a very enchanting game.

[Zinger2099]

You know that guy you see going into the convenience store when you stop off at that little town on the way to grandma's house? A sort of shifty looking fella who buys a pack of smokes, a couple of lotto scratchers and a tall boy at ten in the morning? The kind of guy you wait for to come out before you and your family go in? Well, that guy is me. My name is Earl. And if you took the time to really get to know me, find out what kind of person I truly am instead of just stereotyping me because of the way I look, well, you'd be wasting your time, because I'm exactly who you think I am. Hell, I'll pretty much steal anything that isn't nailed down.

I'm really truly surprised more people aren't noticing this. I mean, yeah, he foolishly claimed, but the paragraph of claiming reads more like an anti-town role.

A-hem.
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0017461/quotes

It's the first one on the page.

[Zinger2099]

Chevre's wall post strikes me as the kind of wall post a lurker scum would make after her scumbuddies prodded her and said "hey, you're lurking too much!"

vote: Chevre

[Junpei]

I think the reasons that we want the heads to claim is so that it is easier to read them. Sure meta is good but it is mainly used by me as a means to cross-reference what the player says is their meta. Otherwise I doubt that the player would fall into the same rutt of 'how i act as mafia'. In fact acting as either is a null tell for me. But if I don't understand which head had which thoughts and such, I can't understand their mind and that is very key in determining scum. I can't force you to claim, but you go on the scumlist for not marking your posts when head 1 and head 2 is speaking.

Hydras

ThreeisFrench
Pappums Leather Jacket
...Who else? I think there is at least one more.

Also, I apologize if you've already done this Zel1nK, but I couldn't find where you explained why you claimed vigilante? It seemed to serve no purpose. You say that you "never tell jokes" and that you are always serious. You even referenced your claim recently wondering if you could kill both of Zlinger and Meran. The fact that you never joke makes me find that suspicious as that is something that you would ask in a role PM. Even so it seems rather obvious whether or not your PM says you can kill two in a night. I want you to explain this as best you can.

pedit: Zlinger that may be true although every one of your posts seems like a scumbudy prodded you and told you you were lurking...

[Rodion]

L-2 is not L-1, but that's nitpicking I guess.

In fact I would argue you shouldn't claim until -1 AND someone has expressed willingness to hammer.

So, can we safely assume that lyncher roles are rare on this site?

(I'll appreciate if any of you can provide me with a list of roles that don't appear often)

I usually like L-2 as the claiming point because of (a) lynchers and (b) dumb/hammer-happy people, but I see things are done differently around here.

[Pinky and the Brain]

Merans, can you post examples of you sitting out Day 1? Cause you diddin't do it in Super Hero Revolution OR SEMG, both of which are Larges I've played with you in.

Rodion: Yeah, Lyncher seems fairly rare on this site.

-diddin

[jasonT1981]

Pvt Slate has been prodded (1)

[chkballin]

Silverdrummer and myself are also hydras. Unlike silverdrummer, however, glowball and I confer constantly to stay on the same page and avoid that terribad hydra-move of "well you should ask otherhead" as it's quite a cop-out. It's not hard to have a hydra QT if you can't see/talk to one another and be on top of yourselves.

Rodion, what site are you from? Also, how likely do you think it is that Zinger is scum? How strong is your read?

Zinger, who is Chevre's scum partner that is prodding them to post?

Moron (erm, Meran), you planned on lurking D1 since it started; glad you informed us of this SIXTEEN PAGES IN. I'm not on the boat of 'give reads or be lynched' but I don't see any town motivation in a move like this. You're prod dodging and floating through the day on purpose. Are you always this anti-town D1? Can you provide some meta for it?

vezok, since you didn't know what you were trying to say in that post... can you try to reiterate it for us one more time, please?

izak, do you have a top three scumreads? I'd like to see them if you do.

Peregrine, have we "bought" your vote? If not, can you explain why?

~

CHK

[ThreeIsFrench]

Hydras

ThreeisFrench
Pappums Leather Jacket
...Who else? I think there is at least one more.

chkballin
Pinky and the Brain
Ze1ink
silverdrummer

wow thats a lot of hydras...

~DJ

[Junpei]

@ThreeIsFrench could you go through your ISO when you get the chance and tag all your posts as either DJ or hip? Some are lacking a tag, if the post just before your last one is the first one by DJ then tell me that, otherwise please go through and tag them.

Same goes for chkballin as although some posts are tagged as either CHK or Ballin, many aren't.

Pinky and the Brain has been perfect

Ze1ink has no tagged posts other than his hydra announcement post

silverdrummer has a good system going I suppose. I won't whine over only one head signing, as long as he's consistent it's all good.

Pappums Leather Jacket never signs either, please do this.