Llamarble wrote:Tommy is on my wagon pretty much entirely because "LOLOL U HAMMAH"
SB & Ice are "LOLOL U HAMMAH AND NOT MASON"
Sub is "LOLOL I VOTE U BY ASSOCIATOIN TO PROBTOWNBECK"
NONE OF THESE CONCERN MY ACTUAL POSTING ASIDE FROM VOTES.
These are NOT town reading deeply and thinking about things.
ALL ARE PICKING OUT THE EASIEST SHALLOWEST AND LEAST MESSY THINGS TO TALK ABOUT.
I don't care that you hammered. Honestly scum tend to be more tentative with hammers bc they feel it looks suspicious. I don't buy your reasoning for it. You have proven to be a reasonable player in the past and not an idiot. Therefore, I don't buy that you hammered because no other lynch was possible six days out from deadline. That doesn't read as genuine to me.
Beck is pinging my scumdar with continued reliance on too scummy to be scum arguments, but it also reads as new player thinking. You do realize that some people aren't good at this game? Not everyscum member is some master manipulator immune to making mistakes.
Llamarble wrote:Tommy is on my wagon pretty much entirely because "LOLOL U HAMMAH"
SB & Ice are "LOLOL U HAMMAH AND NOT MASON"
Sub is "LOLOL I VOTE U BY ASSOCIATOIN TO PROBTOWNBECK"
NONE OF THESE CONCERN MY ACTUAL POSTING ASIDE FROM VOTES.
These are NOT town reading deeply and thinking about things.
ALL ARE PICKING OUT THE EASIEST SHALLOWEST AND LEAST MESSY THINGS TO TALK ABOUT.
This is a straw man. I've been extremely concerned with your posting aside from votes. Every time you avoided a question, I took note and drew the town's attention. And my case is more subtle than you give it credit for. It's actually LOLOL U HAMMAH PLAYER YOU THINK TOWN WITH 6 DAYS LEFT. I can't believe you tried to misrepresent it by simplification so soon after I called Beck out for doing exactly the same thing. You guys are in melt-down.
Beck wrote:Sub, clearly I don't care if you think I'm pro town, you have proven you are scum by trying to twist everything to make it seen scummy
Maybe you ought to start caring, because apparently you're starting to register on other players' scumdars as well.
Beck wrote:You are trying to twist the jilly thing around too cause I don't use her meta as a reason to keep her around
You're flat out lying when you say you intended to vote Jilynne when you unvoted me. There's absolutely nothing you can say to change my mind on that. I called you on why you weren't following through with your reads, and you immediately caved and cast a vote while making up a story about how you just forgot earlier. It's utter bullshit, and there's no reason for town to do it.
Beck wrote: Acro town flip confirms SK is most likely scum yet you are distancing from her lynch now.
Please explain how an Acro town flip in any way confirms SK as scum. At best, it means SK was possibly scum buddying townie, but Acro's flip in no way confirms that. If we lynch Jilynne today, it's because she was lurking and his zealous defense of Acro was highly questionable, but Acro's alignment is irrelevant. If Acro had flipped scum, SK's defense would have been just as scummy and probably scummier. You're just saying things without making sense.
1. I wasn't lying, I meant to re-vote jilly. If your opinion was you think I'm lying, fine.
2. Acro town flip Makes a good case for SK being scum, you even agreed with that cause thats why you voted Sk day one, you even said this
Now, these contradictions on their own aren't important, but these inconsistencies lead me to think that you were going out of your way to defend Acro for an unknown reason rather than following a rational train of thought that lead to the conclusion that Acro should not be subjected to pressure. I'm having trouble thinking of a town motivation for defending another so early in the game without a clear reason, so I'm forced to conclude that you're scum.
So day 1, it was good enough to vote him, but now day 2 you attack me for doing it?
Beck wrote:1. I wasn't lying, I meant to re-vote jilly. If your opinion was you think I'm lying, fine.
I know we'll never agree on this, so we'll just have to leave it to the judgement of others. My opinion is that your sentence summarizing your stance of Jily as unsure and weakening was in no way a lead in for a vote on her. If you were planning on voting her, you would have added something else that would justify your vote despite losing confidence in your own read. You didn't.
Beck wrote:Acro town flip Makes a good case for SK being scum, you even agreed with that cause thats why you voted Sk day one, you even said this
None of that has anything to do with how Acro might flip. Anyhow, I developed new reads, and they've affected my perspective on Jilynne. If not for the fact that you and Llama being scum pretty much eliminates the possibility of Jilynne being scum, I'd still say there's a good chance of her flipping mafia, but I think you two are scummier, so I'm forced to re-evaluate my thoughts on Jilynne. It would be nice if I could include Jilynne in a scum list with you and Llama, but I don't see it making any sense (unless you're both bussing her, which I suppose is a possibility).
Beck wrote:What marble did doesn't make sense as marble scum
Hammering another player for the sake of self-preservation is the definition of making sense as scum. Add in this business between you two, and I'm pretty confident.
I'm not mocking. I'm pointing out that the reasoning behind the votes on my wagon is scumlogic.
When I've been scum I've caught myself constantly just voting for whichever townies lynched other townies because it's easy.
Also voting somebody 'cause you think there's an association between them and somebody else is HORRIBLE and a main reason I think Tommy is scum.
Llamarble wrote:Tommy is on my wagon pretty much entirely because "LOLOL U HAMMAH"
SB & Ice are "LOLOL U HAMMAH AND NOT MASON"
Sub is "LOLOL I VOTE U BY ASSOCIATOIN TO PROBTOWNBECK"
NONE OF THESE CONCERN MY ACTUAL POSTING ASIDE FROM VOTES.
These are NOT town reading deeply and thinking about things.
ALL ARE PICKING OUT THE EASIEST SHALLOWEST AND LEAST MESSY THINGS TO TALK ABOUT.
I don't care that you hammered. Honestly scum tend to be more tentative with hammers bc they feel it looks suspicious. I don't buy your reasoning for it. You have proven to be a reasonable player in the past and not an idiot. Therefore, I don't buy that you hammered because no other lynch was possible six days out from deadline. That doesn't read as genuine to me.
Beck is pinging my scumdar with continued reliance on too scummy to be scum arguments, but it also reads as new player thinking. You do realize that some people aren't good at this game? Not everyscum member is some master manipulator immune to making mistakes.
My reason was pragmatism.
I pointed out why I thought Acro was town, met with STRONG resistance, and decided better him than me.
I had lurked a lot of D1 so I didn't think I could force what I wanted down people's throats in only a few days.
Hammering someone for self preservation is something town wouldn't do?
You are full of shit.
Also you are distancing from a jilly lynch now that it was getting closer to happening, that's why you started grasping at straws and mis-repped my statement about Ivan.
You dont support a jilly lynch now because what?
What has she done to make you think she is not scum anymore?
Please explain this.
You think I'm trying to prevent a llama lynch, tbh I don't give a shit if he gets lynched or not, but NOBODY has made a valid case for his lynch. That hammer, while very bad, isn't grounds enough to lynch over SK
Llama wrote:I'm pointing out that the reasoning behind the votes on my wagon is scumlogic.
No, that's not what you were pointing out. You said the votes were lazy and shallow. You didn't say they were motivated by scum logic.
Llama wrote:Also voting somebody 'cause you think there's an association between them and somebody else is HORRIBLE
I thought you thought Tommy was scum because he doesn't want to lynch Jilynne after voting for Acro, which made you think that he's scum with Jilynne. If there's a difference between this and "an association" between players, I'll admit that I can't really see it.
Beck wrote:Hammering someone for self preservation is something town wouldn't do?
You are full of shit.
Jesus Christ, when did I say it wasn't something town would do? I said it was something that made perfect sense as scum. That doesn't mean that town would never do it, but they sure as hell shouldn't, especially with so much time left in the day.
Beck wrote:You dont support a jilly lynch now because what?
I already explained why in an earlier post. If you'd kindly explain what you can't understand, I'll clarify it.
Beck wrote:What has she done to make you think she is not scum anymore?
Nothing, but now I think you're scum, and Jilynne being scum doesn't really fit into that theory of events.
Beck wrote:That hammer, while very bad, isn't grounds enough to lynch over SK
I thought we can't learn anything from hammers. Maybe I'd believe you had no interest in Llama's survival if you didn't try to justify his behavior and then revise your opinions when people don't buy your excuses.
1. that hammer made NO SENSE as scum, none because it was draw attention to themselves.
2. I never saw a real reason why she isn't a good lynch so please point that post out to me
3. you go from me being a town read to a scum read based on the mis-reps you keep making about me. so you are just proving yourself to be scum now
4. we can't learn anything from hammers alone, the reason why the hammer was bad is due to the fact that WE HAD MORE TIME TO DISCUSS THINGS. why do you keep mis-repping me?
town makes bad decisions too, if he is town, his hammer was bad and hopefully in the future he will learn from it. If he is scum than he suprised the shit out of me cause that would be a horrible place and time for a scum hammer.
but keep straw manning me, the truth will come out that you are scum, you don't even support your own case that you made on day 1, the one you spend a good portion of the day pushing, and now you abandon it because Jilly's play has somehow convinced you she isn't scum
I already pointed out how you essentially followed everyone on your votes day 1 except to oportunistically hop on Yank's wagon to put him to L-2 so you have proven you aren't mason and your following spoon around, is just sketchy.
The fact that now you have put marble at L-2 again and say in the post where you do it, that you won't make a case for him, is just more proof you are scum.
WHY WON'T YOU MAKE YOUR OWN CASE ON MARBLE?
WHY ISN'T ANYONE MAKING A CASE ON MARBLE?
Here are the votes on Marble
Scott picks Marble because he is on the non-mason list and he has a leaning town read on me and ICE - no case
Tommy's reason is solely based off the hammer and because jilly has become disinterested in the game
Ice posts 3 statements and makes a list of people on each person, because llama is on all 3, he votes him. Ice also admits he has been waffling on it but he feels good about it
Subs - says he isn't going to make a case on marble and he feels there is a marble/beck combo in the works
I don't see a single reason why llmarble shoudl be lynched over Jilly
SK did the mose scum tell thing in the game, he defended a townie. In every other game, that person would be lynched ASAP but somehow this game the replacement flakes and gets a free pass?
Is there a different thread somewhere that has another person named Subgenius that you're responding to?
1. It's completely WIFOM, and if Llama really did feel like he was on the way to being lynched, scum Llama would have every reason to hammer.
2. Because if you and Llama are scum, then Jilynne has every appearance of being a counter wagon, since you two are pushing it, and pushing it doubly hard now that attention is shifted in your direction.
3. I really don't think I'm mis-repping anything, but I think we both realize that other players will have to make that decision.
4. So are you saying it was bad, but not scummy? If so, I misinterpreted what you've been trying to say recently. Also, I don't believe that was you meant in Post 754 when you wrote:
Beck wrote:Need to re-read ice next but jilly's slot is already scummy so I'm okay with her, marble's lack of scum hunting is interesting too, plus that rush to hammer was bad.
Unless I see something absolutely horrible from ice, the top choices for today I think are jilly and marble
You definitely said that his hammer was bad in the context of supporting a scum read.
Beck wrote: In every other game, that person would be lynched ASAP but somehow this game the replacement flakes and gets a free pass?
1. but so would town llama, which is why you can't use that as a reason to lynch anyone
2. you realize jily's wagon was largest first, she was at L-1 I believe and now marble's wagon is growing to L-2. Marble's wagon is the epitome of a counter wagon. where do you come up with this stuff for real?
3. you have mis-repped me and I called you on it.
4. I said that hammer makes him look bad, yes I did because the hammer WAS bad, but that doesn't mean that makes him scum and it doesn't mean that he isn't a viable lynch, but Jilly was at L-1 and she has done nothing to make her slot look less scummy. This wagon on marble formed out of nothing, this is a perfect example of A COUNTER WAGON because the people on it haven't provided a good enough reason why he is better than Jilly.
I have provided a perfect reason why Jilly is better
Jilly/SK - agressively defended Acro day one, acro flipped town
marble - is on the list of non-mason and he made a bad hammer in self preservation
out of the 2, Jilly's wagon is better and it going back up can't be a COUNTER WAGON BECAUSE HER WAGON WAS COUNTERED BY MARBLES.
get it scum? yes marble's wagon IS THE COUNTER WAGON YOU SPEAK OF.
Beck wrote:1. but so would town llama, which is why you can't use that as a reason to lynch anyone
1. Ok, talk to Tommy about it. I'm not voting for Llama based on the hammer.
Beck wrote:2. you realize jily's wagon was largest first, she was at L-1 I believe and now marble's wagon is growing to L-2. Marble's wagon is the epitome of a counter wagon. where do you come up with this stuff for real?
2. Actually, if you look at the vote counts, Jilynne's wagon didn't pick up until later in the day, after Grey already had some attention and votes. And the wagon was at your suggestion, as a matter of fact.
Beck wrote:3. you have mis-repped me and I called you on it.
3. *shrug* Keep repeating it. We'll have to wait until some other people to show up to find out who's actually misrepping who.
4. You're abusing the vaguenss of the word 'bad'. When you first used it, you meant scummy, now you mean poor play. I'd simply direct everyone to read Post 754, and consider whether Beck's use of looking 'bad' in that post means "poor player" or "scum".
I'm going to wait for some more players to chime in before I add any more. I'm growing concerned that there will be too much bickering between the two of us to actually read through, and they'll skim it, which would be a shame.
Llama wrote:I'm pointing out that the reasoning behind the votes on my wagon is scumlogic.
No, that's not what you were pointing out. You said the votes were lazy and shallow. You didn't say they were motivated by scum logic.
Llama wrote:Also voting somebody 'cause you think there's an association between them and somebody else is HORRIBLE
I thought you thought Tommy was scum because he doesn't want to lynch Jilynne after voting for Acro, which made you think that he's scum with Jilynne. If there's a difference between this and "an association" between players, I'll admit that I can't really see it.
Associations are relevant but not a basis. They can help figure out what is going on, but because each player has a relatively low ~1/3 probability of being scum, trying to lynch player A because you assume player B is scum is NOT reasonable.
Also associations are VERY easy to fabricate, and a player whose posting is easily fakeable is more likely to be faking.
And LAZY SHALLOW VOTES :ARE: scumlogic.
Town deeply read posting and try to get an idea of who is scum and who isn't.
Scum look for the things that they think will be considered solid footing to stand on so they can lynch town and others won't see them as insufficiently scumhunting.
This leads scum to wield simpler and less original reasoning than town.
A novel, by the devilishly handsome narrator, yours truly
Playing as scum is like being a soccer referee; you have to run back and forth just like everyone else, but you don't actually get to play. Tommy on Day 1 is a PERFECT example of that. He enters the game with PLENTY of opinions regarding players alignments, but there is no vote.
Without voting, he lets other people take full responsibility for the wagons, meaning people get lynched without him getting his hands dirty. He leads on others suspicions, without putting himself out there. This is ideal scum play. Look like you're doing shit without actually doing it.
So, when I entered this game and stated Tommy one as of my scum reads, he ignored it. Completely. Hell, in my case against blinker I criticized blinker for voting Llamarble based on his hammer, this is the same reason Tommy was voting Llamarble. Yet he ignores THAT as well. This isn't how town responds. In the very LEAST town would question these specific points. But Tommy doesn't because he's scum. Why should he bother to ask me why I think he's scum when I was busy attacking someone else?
He just parrotted the rest of the people who went "herp derp" MT's town, I like MT's case. Completely ignores my suspicions of him, EVEN when he was responding to my idea, he doesn't even bother to ask WHY I would ever suspect little ol him. Instead he questions the results of my idea, not my suspicions, what?
Chapter Two:
THE LIFE AND TIMES OF JEKYLL AND HYDE (Ivan)
Sub, you were wondering why I previously had a town read on Ivan, no? Consider this, if blinker is a timid character of generic suspicions and passive aggressive tendencies, then Ivan is his antithesis. He's clear, direct, and most notably of all, I agree with his reads. I can easily relate to WHY he suspects certain people and understand his reasoning. Honestly, the only thing I don't like his reluctance to explain himself, and walk in a straight line. If Tommy turns up scum I can easily see Ivan's play as blatant bussing. It works even better with both heads shooting in opposite directions. Consistently attack your buddies, but don't drive them over the edge. In the mean time, just piss around. Both hydra heads are competent players to realize their schizophrenic play is bad, which supports my bussing theory BECAUSE their schizophrenic play severely lowers their chance of actually driving a lynch through.
But I'd rather wait for a Tommy flip before considering Ivan for a lynch. Sure, Sub could be scum as well but I'm less sure of that. Either way it's notable.
Chapter Three:
DON'T KILL JILL GUYS
Actually I don't really care. But she's not scum, nor is Llamarble.
Chapter Four:
THE THREE STOOGES
Ice, Beck, and CC are all most definitely town. I don't feel like explaining.
EPILOGUE:
WE NEED TO KILL TOMMY. HE NEEDS TO DIE.
Authors Note:
blinker, sub, and Scott can all rot in purgatory. The filthy scoundrels keep bobbing back and forth from null to scum and back again. Bastards.
subgenius wrote:I'm a little surprised that scum decided to kill Yank, but his alignment isn't much of a surprise. I don't think either of the flips change my reads very much. Grey and sleepy (jilynne) are still at the top of my list. I should re-read a bit to get my momentum back, but those are definitely the two players I'm most interested in hearing from at the moment.
vote: Greymarble
Before you make your case, explain why day starts and you go after gray and not jilly. Starting day 2, the person who looked the worst out of everyone was gray for his hammer, but you just said you aren't voting gray for his hammer.
So what was the reason for this?
Your after the hammer vote on gray day 1 was clearly you following somebody elses reasons.
I can't find any viable reasons of yours to push a gray wagon over jilly giving your SK hatred.
To me, it looks like you are too easily swayed which is more of a scum tell imo
Beck wrote:Before you make your case, explain why day starts and you go after gray and not jilly. Starting day 2, the person who looked the worst out of everyone was gray for his hammer, but you just said you aren't voting gray for his hammer.
Trying to vote for Llama during day 1 might have been following someone else's strategy, but I did it for my own reasons. Bear in mind, I didn't realize Llama had hammered at that point. I was voting for him because I felt that he was lurking, dodging questions, and suggesting fake scum reads. I didn't think he was scummier than Acro at that point, but I was persuaded by Ivan's suggestion that we still had time to pressure Llama, then get back to Acro. When Day 2 rolled around, I was pretty fired up about the hammer and still hadn't had a resolution to my original reasons for voting Grey, so I voted him. Grey explained himself, which I half accepted and appreciated that he was beginning to post a bit more and explain himself, so I moved onto Jlynnne.
Magic wrote:Oh hey, Sub's reading. Watcha thinking about bro?
Honestly? I'm thinking of how tired I am of arguing with Beck.
why when Jilly was close to a lynch today did you try and start one on ivan and when that failed joined the marble wagon?
and before you say jilly was the orginal counter wagon, marble only had 2 votes before and a wagon is not 2 votes so jilly wasn't a counter wagon
p.edit
can you please enlighten us to what your day 1 reasons were because that is basically have you have failed to do all game, is provide YOUR REASONS for wanting people lynched.
