TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Junpei]

Well killerjester this vote makes no sense to me. You are choosing to lynch izak apparently because of a post that Pinky made regarding his cognitive dissonance on Jester jokes. Unfortunately I can't say it is a scumtell because if you'll notice (and Pinky noticed as well) that it was most likely caused by Pinky's response to the first instance. I'd like to see izak's response though before I go into anymore detail. Regardless your vote seems out of place given all the other options we have going for us.

[killerjester]

Should I elaborate? izak's second instance, the one where he talks down on you for suggesting a jester possibility seems like he's over-compensating for his earlier mistake. That's what really rang the scum-dar in my head.

[Junpei]

Should I elaborate? izak's second instance, the one where he talks down on you for suggesting a jester possibility seems like he's over-compensating for his earlier mistake. That's what really rang the scum-dar in my head.

I can see that, fair enough.

[ZeL1nK]

Also, I apologize if you've already done this Zel1nK, but I couldn't find where you explained why you claimed vigilante? It seemed to serve no purpose. You say that you "never tell jokes" and that you are always serious. You even referenced your claim recently wondering if you could kill both of Zlinger and Meran. The fact that you never joke makes me find that suspicious as that is something that you would ask in a role PM. Even so it seems rather obvious whether or not your PM says you can kill two in a night. I want you to explain this as best you can.

In what possible way could it benefit you for me to discuss my motives here?

Zinger townslipped. He's town.

If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, I don't consider that a town slip, but it's at least not worth pursuing today.

izak is a wagon I can get behind, though.

Unvote

VOTE: izak

[Zinger2099]

Simple: if you're town, you shouldn't be helping anyone. You don't hold your opinions to yourself. The town needs as much information as possible.

And if I'm not town?

[ZeL1nK]

The pro-town thing to do right now is ignore every post by Zinger. For the rest of this game. Just pretend he's not even there.

[Zinger2099]

Now you're just trying to tick me off.

[Junpei]

Also, I apologize if you've already done this Zel1nK, but I couldn't find where you explained why you claimed vigilante? It seemed to serve no purpose. You say that you "never tell jokes" and that you are always serious. You even referenced your claim recently wondering if you could kill both of Zlinger and Meran. The fact that you never joke makes me find that suspicious as that is something that you would ask in a role PM. Even so it seems rather obvious whether or not your PM says you can kill two in a night. I want you to explain this as best you can.

In what possible way could it benefit you for me to discuss my motives here?

Well I find hiding under hidden role mechanics suspicious and I wanted to see if there was any way that you could safely explain some of it to me. From what I know vigilante can only kill 1 person at night typically.

As for the people who are saying don't point out Zlinger's town slip, if out of the handful of people who seem to have seen it there is 1 scum, then scum will already know. No reason to not inform town. Besides, scum will find it out in 1 months' time anyways, but someone like me who is new to the site and (admittedly) not understanding of how someone could townslip, it'd be helpful.

[Zinger2099]

Honestly, I didn't even think a townslip was even possible. Scumslip, sure, but townslip?

I am mighty curious myself as to what they are talking about.

[Chevre]

Simple: if you're town, you shouldn't be helping anyone. You don't hold your opinions to yourself. The town needs as much information as possible.

And if I'm not town?

Are you saying you aren't town?

[silverdrummer]

Less bickering, more votes on Pine plox

[marco1610]

UNVOTE:

[ThAdmiral]

Oh yeah also ThAdmiral, just to respond to that one bit in your post, waiting for L-1 would have been dangerous. I knew that I was tracker and that there is no way this BW was going tot turn around just because I replaced in. People were going v/la and it was very close to a lynch.

I generally give replacements who are being heavily bandwagoned a bit of leeway. I'm not sure about everyone else though.

@Junpei, it's Day 1. Gimme a break. I see nothing that isn't just people jumping to conclusions or circumstantial.

Day 1 cases are almost always a flop. All that really matters is that we keep people talking so there is something to look back at during the following days.

I used to be like you and think day 1 was basically useless. I know think it is the most important day in a mafia game (apart from lylo).

Zlinger what you're doing is 100% anti-town. We are wasting energy/posts on you and that is bad. I won't take role-excuses for an answer as it seems like a really cheap way to get out of jail free. Could someone please confirm that there is a likely mechanic that implies that what Zlinger is doing is smart? If there is then Zlinger is an idiot or mafia for softclaiming it. If not than Zlinger is mafia or we have an unlikely scenario.

This.
And to answer your question: no, there is no role that would require him to be

somewhat

suspected. Him softclaiming is him being an idiot, and that applies if he's town or scum.

@ mod: can we get meransiel replaced for not playing to their win condition?

Zinger townslipped. He's town.

I think I see what you are talking about, but I don't necessarily agree. I don't think the mod confirmed one way or the other.

[vezokpiraka]

Oh yeah also ThAdmiral, just to respond to that one bit in your post, waiting for L-1 would have been dangerous. I knew that I was tracker and that there is no way this BW was going tot turn around just because I replaced in. People were going v/la and it was very close to a lynch.

I generally give replacements who are being heavily bandwagoned a bit of leeway. I'm not sure about everyone else though.

@Junpei, it's Day 1. Gimme a break. I see nothing that isn't just people jumping to conclusions or circumstantial.

Day 1 cases are almost always a flop. All that really matters is that we keep people talking so there is something to look back at during the following days.

I used to be like you and think day 1 was basically useless. I know think it is the most important day in a mafia game (apart from lylo).

Zlinger what you're doing is 100% anti-town. We are wasting energy/posts on you and that is bad. I won't take role-excuses for an answer as it seems like a really cheap way to get out of jail free. Could someone please confirm that there is a likely mechanic that implies that what Zlinger is doing is smart? If there is then Zlinger is an idiot or mafia for softclaiming it. If not than Zlinger is mafia or we have an unlikely scenario.

This.
And to answer your question: no, there is no role that would require him to be

somewhat

suspected. Him softclaiming is him being an idiot, and that applies if he's town or scum.

@ mod: can we get meransiel replaced for not playing to their win condition?

Zinger townslipped. He's town.

I think I see what you are talking about, but I don't necessarily agree. I don't think the mod confirmed one way or the other.

Why meran? Zinger is doing the same thing.

I would gladly have him replaced.

On the other hand MoI come back here and solve this clusterfuck.

[ThAdmiral]

@ vezok: yeah zinger too.

[vollkan]

Dear God. Do people want to give more input than, "KJ is being silly, he should just believe Leon is town like the rest of us."?

killer, I personally don't care whether you agree with my read, but your case on Leon is stretching.

- Scum fabricate excuses to claim that they find someone suspicious.
- Scum uses manipulation and deceit to achieve their nefarious ends.
- Scum try to look suspicious of someone that is in no danger of being lynched so they are uninvolved with the lynch of a townie.
- Scum need to look like they are trying to catch scum.

Like yeah, these are valid points in general, but trying to apply them to Leon is stretching.

The main reason I think he's probably town is mostly to do with nuances in his posts that give me town vibes. He's also done nothing that really stands out and makes me think he's scum, so bonus points there, considering how many people are begging to be lynched right now.

I made my reasons for suspecting Leon fairly clear -I don't see how you could seriously think that town "vibes" (a word which really discredits you right there) can overcome that

@ volkan: I know you've addressed this before in another game but how does your number system deal with lurkers? They wouldn't get points as they aren't saying anything.

Short answer: It doesn't.

Longer answer: I don't think lurking is a scumtell, so it isn't really a problem. In practice, of course, in an endgame or near-endgame scenario when the uncertainty around lurkers had become a serious and immediately pressing issue, I'd weigh up that uncertainty against scumminess. For example: somebody who had lurked all game probably would not get voted over somebody at 70+, but might well be voted over somebody at 55-60. I admit that I have no clear rules on this point, because, despite being an obvious theoretical problem, it rarely arises in practice, and it isn't the sort of thing that really can be dealt with mechanistically.

@Silver: you still haven't explained why Pine is scum. Your "case" on him seems to just basically be that he is a lurker

*stares at vollkan angrily*
*again expresses general disdain towards Pine*
*suggests you move your vote to Pine*

*farts in your general direction*

unvote
vote zinger

I know both zinger and meransiel post on day 1 and make cases.

Right now neither of them does that and just says they are bored. Something is afoot. I believe meran because even if he posts he doesn't post that much on day 1 , but zinger does.

You just contradicted yourself.

First you said meransiel does "post on day 1 and make cases". Then you say "even if he posts he doesn't post that much on day 1"

I have no idea what I meant to say there.

In the case of somebody as "special" (but for mod rule 2, I would have used

a different adjective

several different adjectives ) as you, I'd normally buy this.

However, if you didn't mean that, then your post simply doesn't make sense. You anchor yourself to choosing either zinger or meran (problematic in and of itself) because, you say, they both post cases on D1. But then, you choose zinger over meran precisely because, you say, meran

doesn't

post much on D1.

Chevre's wall post strikes me as the kind of wall post a lurker scum would make after her scumbuddies prodded her and said "hey, you're lurking too much!"

Obvious question - How do you think it differs from the kind of post a lurker-town would make?

I considered his stalling scummy enough to raise the bar.

Do you have any meta evidence for you taking into account wagon size as being somehow proportionate to your suspicion? It's an unusual way to play

Cognitive dissonance from joking about jesters and then calling people stupid for talking about jesters. Probably caused by me (correctly) calling out his intent behind his first post (see I).

What's "I"?

[vezokpiraka]

Dear God. Do people want to give more input than, "KJ is being silly, he should just believe Leon is town like the rest of us."?

killer, I personally don't care whether you agree with my read, but your case on Leon is stretching.

- Scum fabricate excuses to claim that they find someone suspicious.
- Scum uses manipulation and deceit to achieve their nefarious ends.
- Scum try to look suspicious of someone that is in no danger of being lynched so they are uninvolved with the lynch of a townie.
- Scum need to look like they are trying to catch scum.

Like yeah, these are valid points in general, but trying to apply them to Leon is stretching.

The main reason I think he's probably town is mostly to do with nuances in his posts that give me town vibes. He's also done nothing that really stands out and makes me think he's scum, so bonus points there, considering how many people are begging to be lynched right now.

I made my reasons for suspecting Leon fairly clear -I don't see how you could seriously think that town "vibes" (a word which really discredits you right there) can overcome that

@ volkan: I know you've addressed this before in another game but how does your number system deal with lurkers? They wouldn't get points as they aren't saying anything.

Short answer: It doesn't.

Longer answer: I don't think lurking is a scumtell, so it isn't really a problem. In practice, of course, in an endgame or near-endgame scenario when the uncertainty around lurkers had become a serious and immediately pressing issue, I'd weigh up that uncertainty against scumminess. For example: somebody who had lurked all game probably would not get voted over somebody at 70+, but might well be voted over somebody at 55-60. I admit that I have no clear rules on this point, because, despite being an obvious theoretical problem, it rarely arises in practice, and it isn't the sort of thing that really can be dealt with mechanistically.

@Silver: you still haven't explained why Pine is scum. Your "case" on him seems to just basically be that he is a lurker

*stares at vollkan angrily*
*again expresses general disdain towards Pine*
*suggests you move your vote to Pine*

*farts in your general direction*

unvote
vote zinger

I know both zinger and meransiel post on day 1 and make cases.

Right now neither of them does that and just says they are bored. Something is afoot. I believe meran because even if he posts he doesn't post that much on day 1 , but zinger does.

You just contradicted yourself.

First you said meransiel does "post on day 1 and make cases". Then you say "even if he posts he doesn't post that much on day 1"

I have no idea what I meant to say there.

In the case of somebody as "special" (but for mod rule 2, I would have used

a different adjective

several different adjectives ) as you, I'd normally buy this.

However, if you didn't mean that, then your post simply doesn't make sense. You anchor yourself to choosing either zinger or meran (problematic in and of itself) because, you say, they both post cases on D1. But then, you choose zinger over meran precisely because, you say, meran

doesn't

post much on D1.

Chevre's wall post strikes me as the kind of wall post a lurker scum would make after her scumbuddies prodded her and said "hey, you're lurking too much!"

Obvious question - How do you think it differs from the kind of post a lurker-town would make?

I considered his stalling scummy enough to raise the bar.

Do you have any meta evidence for you taking into account wagon size as being somehow proportionate to your suspicion? It's an unusual way to play

Cognitive dissonance from joking about jesters and then calling people stupid for talking about jesters. Probably caused by me (correctly) calling out his intent behind his first post (see I).

What's "I"?

I think I remember what the fuck I wanted to say.

Well I think both meran and zinger aren't doing anything, but I saw meran do nothing before, but sometimes he does stuff. On the other hand this is the first time zinger doesn't do a thing.

[Pinky and the Brain]

Reconcile plz.

...okay? It had no effect on my read, it was just a comment I maee. You are null/leaning scum for other reasons, adding harping to a null/leaning read as one of them...

You expect me to believe that in a list of reads, the comment immediately preceeding the read

is of

no relevance

whatsoever to the read

?

Should I elaborate? izak's second instance, the one where he talks down on you for suggesting a jester possibility seems like he's over-compensating for his earlier mistake. That's what really rang the scum-dar in my head.

This is a good articulation of what I had in my head.

What's "I"?

I (as in 'myself') numbered (as in 'I, II, II...') the different parts of my case. I'm referring to Part I.

@ Mod: In your latest vote count there's a mistake here:

Chevre 1 - Pappum,Nero

~ Hoppster

[vollkan]

unvote
vote zinger

I know both zinger and meransiel post on day 1 and make cases.

Right now neither of them does that and just says they are bored. Something is afoot. I believe meran because even if he posts he doesn't post that much on day 1 , but zinger does.

You just contradicted yourself.

First you said meransiel does "post on day 1 and make cases". Then you say "even if he posts he doesn't post that much on day 1"

I have no idea what I meant to say there.

In the case of somebody as "special" (but for mod rule 2, I would have used

a different adjective

several different adjectives ) as you, I'd normally buy this.

However, if you didn't mean that, then your post simply doesn't make sense. You anchor yourself to choosing either zinger or meran (problematic in and of itself) because, you say, they both post cases on D1. But then, you choose zinger over meran precisely because, you say, meran

doesn't

post much on D1.

I think I remember what the fuck I wanted to say.

Well I think both meran and zinger aren't doing anything, but I saw meran do nothing before, but sometimes he does stuff. On the other hand this is the first time zinger doesn't do a thing.

So you were lying when you said that you "know" that Meransiel "posts on D1 and makes cases"?

I (as in 'myself') numbered (as in 'I, II, II...') the different parts of my case. I'm referring to Part I.

I can't find it...which post #?

[David Xanatos]

I think he means #289.. he called it A, B, C etc though..

[Meransiel]

Thanks vezok, I owe you one.

Vote: Zinger

[Meransiel]

Also you guys do know that I am more active than 40% the playerlist, right?

[Zinger2099]

Activity doesn't count for everything Meran.

@Chevre, I was speaking hypothetically.

@Vezok and ThAdmiral, rather presumptuous of both of you to think you know what my win condition is.

[Meransiel]

You could replace Pine if you wanted. Or Glowball. Or 4 other people. But nooo, I'm easy meat.

[vollkan]

I think he means #289.. he called it A, B, C etc though..

Since A was about Leon, I assume he meant:

I don't like this post. It feels like a "HEY LOOK AT ME I'M UNINFORMED MAJORITY LOOK AT ME ASK ABOUT JESTERS"-post.

The above argument is just weak. Jester speculation is ALWAYS dumb but rarely is it scummy - for it to be a scumtell, you have to do the sort of WIFOM acrobatics that Pinky is doing where you suppose that the person is scum deliberately acting dumb to appear town.

Thanks vezok, I owe you one.

Vote: Zinger

...somebody just sheeped vezok....

Words escape me

Also you guys do know that I am more active than 40% the playerlist, right?

You are also more of an obnoxious dick than 26/27 of the playlist.