Mini 1193: Hacker's Panic mafia. (Game Over)

[bobsnox]

the theories are separate; I haven't decided which one is best yet. Obviously Zodiark is not scum if the second theory is accurate. I don't have evidence to clear anyone. I haven't even tried to clear anyone. All of my statements regarding my targets have been couched in terms of probability and likelihood. Zodiark could easily still be scum regardless that I saw no action last night. No scum team in its right mind would send him to do the kill last night as someone pointed out.

That's a horrible replacement post and I'm starting to lean toward leaving Zodiark alone for today and getting rid of the awol slots.

So correct me if I am wrong....

Theory 1- You have evidence that Zodiark is clear (as clear as Parama??? which I would like to hear your reasoning on). But despite this...you are voting him [Zodiark] anyway. BTW...does this mean you think Parama is scum as well since they are both equally clear?

No, I do not have evidence that anyone is clear. I said so plainly here:

Obviously Zodiark is not scum if the second theory is accurate.

I don't have evidence to clear anyone.

I haven't even tried to clear anyone. All of my statements regarding my targets have been couched in terms of probability and likelihood. Zodiark could easily still be scum regardless that I saw no action last night.

I received a "no action" result for both Zodiark and Parama. I am still voting Zodiark because his play has been scumtastic. They are not equally anything, and I would appreciate it if you would cut out the strawman tactic.

Theory 2- All the scum were unavailable/awol and therefore the mod felt it was his duty to execute a random kill on scum's behalf. So therefore anyone who was not present over the last night phase is probably scum. Is that correct? I assume this theory would rely on Zodiark not being scum because he was around. But since you are voting Zodiark and not trying to convince the other's who are voting him that he is "clear," you must really believe he

is

scum which would negate the basis of your 2nd theory.

As I said above,

Obviously Zodiark is not scum if the second theory is accurate.

This isn't a hard concept. I am going with Zodiark being scum for now, but I could abandon that theory in favor of voting you pretty easily.

Also, since you are prepared to base your D3 vote on a "hunch" and not on actual comments or actions that have taken place over the last two plus days (as evidenced by the fact you aren't giving any evidence and calling your suspicions a....."hunch"), why not just ask the mod how he would process the night phase if scum had not submitted a kill?

I'm VOTING someone else not based on that theory. I am voting based on evidence that has happened the last couple days. This is such a waste of time. Besides,

In the event that AFK players had night actions they will be performed randomly (unless they have teammates to choose their actions for them).

The biggest issue with my 2nd theory is that the Mod only listed two awol players (antihero and haschel), and I do think there are 3 scum. But if kondi is part of that group, then I can imagine all three scum being awol for an entire night phase.

I don't think his response matters one way or the other because you either think Zodiark is scum (and he was here) or you are saying all 3 scum (assuming 3) were absent. Which is almost more of a stretch than thinking you are town.

I have been in another game where we had more than 3 scum and no one submitted an action or kill in a 72 hour night. It's not unthinkable. Have you gone through the list of players to see who hasn't posted recently? That's very misleading.

As for my last post being horrible....that's funny. If I had come in and said bobsnox is town and put a vote down on Zodiark you probably would have been high fiving me.

I would probably approve of your being correct, yes what a waste of time this line of argument is.

Preview edit- bobsnox...can you link me to where a PR has claimed?

was my claim not obvious enough?

[bobsnox]

Nice try Zodiark, but that's not a contradiction. bobsnox is just bad at words or something.

Quick to defend scumbuddies. Noted.

You realize Parama is a really good player, right? You should expect his mistakes to occur in much less obvious ways. I doubt one of the best players on this site would do something that stupid if we were scumbuddies. The last game I played with him, he bussed one of his buddies from the get go and then another one later in the game (IIRC) with little provocation. He also thinks I'm a horrible player. If we were both scum, I'd be dead by now.

jumping all over a miswording is pretty bad play. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, not clear you 100%. This is consistent with what I said earlier about Parama:

There is a reason I seem like a buddy with Parama, btw. He is not today's lynch and neither am I. He may be at a later time but we need a lot more evidence to go off of.

you really need to read the whole game and stop tunneling a claimed town PR.

Perhaps I quoted the wrong posts or something. You claimed to have knowledge that would clear me, and yet you refused to provide such evidence, preferring to let my get lynched instead, despite said evidence. Now, you took heat for the claim, and are now saying that you don't even have any evidence. And what exactly is the relevence of the quote, other that your usual BS of trying to lead the town? It's all you've done all game.

You're beating a dead horse. I am the Tracker. I saw you took no action last night. That doesn't clear you. It makes it less likely you're scum since there was a NK, but it doesn't clear you. I still think you're scum because your play has been scummy from the get go. It's funny how people are forgetting the complete 180 you did on Celebloki, completely contradicting yourself. I wanted you dead yesterday but Hrezs was on the chopping block for everyone else. You are still scummy and have not improved. I just hoped I would have damning evidence when this day started.

[bobsnox]

Not sure about Zodiark anymore. His posts are obvscum but I have other evidence that puts him on the same playing field as Parama...

I really don't like the fact that you are clearing people so to speak because they didn't travel anywhere during the night phase, especially since there have been no scum flips.

I'm NOT clearing anyone. goodness people. My evidence SUGGESTS that Parama is not scum just as it SUGGESTS Zodiark is not scum, but that doesn't CLEAR either of them. I am LEANING town on Parama and LEANING scum on Zodiark.

I agree the celeb kill was unexpected. If it was a mod-random kill, what do you think it means re zodiark? I think it would be less likely zodiark is scum. Of course we can't actually know about the kill for sure, zod remains a good lynch, but we should certainly wait to hear a decent amount from the replacements before lynching tiday.

As long as we are throwing out conspiracy theories about the Celebloki kill, I'll just say maybe bobnox is a scum tracker and tracked him the previous night. Seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. The mere suggestion that the scum NK was randomized is absurd because that would require all the scum team to have flaked, and unless there is some reason to think we only have two scum in this game at the very least I won't even consider this all and at the very most consider it scum distractions.

seen it happen before, etc. not absurd in this game.

Zodiark could easily still be scum regardless that I saw no action last night. No scum team in its right mind would send him to do the kill last night as someone pointed out.

If no scum team in their right mind would send Zodiark to commit the kill then why did you track him?

I was hoping to seal the deal. It would've been the next best thing to a cop result if Zodiark targeted last night's kill. I also didn't think about the fact that they might not send Zodiark until someone (Parama?) brought it up today.

[don_johnson]

Parama cleared you, bob. Hows that work? And just to play da, why again did you target zod if you hold the belief that scum wouldnt send him to make the kill?

[bobsnox]

Parama is probably a VT.

And I literally just answered your second question in the line above your post.

[xvart]

The last game I played with him, he bussed one of his buddies from the get go and then another one later in the game (IIRC) with little provocation. He also thinks I'm a horrible player. If we were both scum, I'd be dead by now.

This isn't a valid point because if Parama hard core bussed someone D1 in every single game where he was scum he would be catching heat every single time he was vocal and sure of himself on a D1 scum lynch.

You're beating a dead horse. I am the Tracker. I saw you took no action last night. That doesn't clear you. It makes it less likely you're scum since there was a NK, but it doesn't clear you. I still think you're scum because your play has been scummy from the get go. It's funny how people are forgetting the complete 180 you did on Celebloki, completely contradicting yourself. I wanted you dead yesterday but Hrezs was on the chopping block for everyone else. You are still scummy and have not improved. I just hoped I would have damning evidence when this day started.

Being "the Tracker" doesn't clear you, either. The fact that you claimed when completely unwarranted and unnecessary and the fact that you tracked Zodiark for the explicit reason of solidifying a scum read on someone who more than likely was going to be today's lynch is highly suspicious. And Zodiark not traveling anywhere has absolutely no bearing on him being less likely/more likely scum because Zodiark committing a night action is not connected to his scummy behavior in game.

I'm NOT clearing anyone. goodness people. My evidence SUGGESTS that Parama is not scum just as it SUGGESTS Zodiark is not scum, but that doesn't CLEAR either of them. I am LEANING town on Parama and LEANING scum on Zodiark.

That's why I included the modifier "so to speak". And a failed track does not suggest anything other than Zodiark didn't submit a night action last night.

I was hoping to seal the deal. It would've been the next best thing to a cop result if Zodiark targeted last night's kill. I also didn't think about the fact that they might not send Zodiark until someone (Parama?) brought it up today.

Just so I have this straight: you tracked someone who you were confident was scum and was most likely to be the lynch straight out of the gate today. Were you planning to claim today if he visited the dead body last night? With no scum flipped yet?

[Parama]

The last game I played with him, he bussed one of his buddies from the get go and then another one later in the game (IIRC) with little provocation. He also thinks I'm a horrible player. If we were both scum, I'd be dead by now.

This isn't a valid point because if Parama hard core bussed someone D1 in every single game where he was scum he would be catching heat every single time he was vocal and sure of himself on a D1 scum lynch.

Actually this already happens. Mini 1063, Mini 1079, Mini 1151, probably tons of other places. Any time I dominate scum accuse me of bussing and try to get me lynched, also it never works.

[CooLskins]

You know, I could do a very elaborate catch-up post telling all of you why we should lynch zodiark over bob. But I won't.

Here is the deal guys.

1) Bob is town. End of story. If he is scum I will eat my friggin' pants.
2)Zodiark is scum. If he is town I will eat my pants.

I will get around to doing a full re-read. However, I'm quite tired tonight and don't feel up to it.

[don_johnson]

Skins/parama/bob would not surprise me.

gain: parama stated bob was clear very early in game. Why? According to bob, parama has no night action, so he could not have investigated him. So why was parama confirming bob?

[Parama]

Because I picked up on what bob was claiming and I believed him due to the way he was going about it.

[havingfitz]

UNVOTE:

While I do not care for bob's reasoning (for most of what he has said iirc) I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on his tracker claim atm as it would be quite the risk if another player was a tracker, or if Parama or Zodiak had actually visited someone.

My next suspect was...

VOTE: Parama

[Parama]

You have an hour to post a case. Because at this point in time you've said NOTHING about me.

[havingfitz]

You have an hour to post a case.

When I have time.

[bobsnox]

xvart - no I would not have claimed. But I had already made it obvious what I was by semi-clearing Parama. I was VERY against his lynching and I said there was a REASON I was "buddying up" to him. I thought I would be dead last night really. Actually, if Parama was scum I think he would've killed me last night too. So I'm even more sure he's town at this point.

[deselby]

I don't have evidence to clear anyone. I haven't even tried to clear anyone.

Ok screw it. You try to clear a guy and he rages on you.

This, indisputably, is a contradiction. Less scummy than zodiarks, as it is a rather throwaway line.

Firstly, Zodiark pounced on it. @Zod, do you really think this contradiction is scummier than yours?

Secondly, I did not like the way both parama and bobs state that the above is not a contradiction, just "bad wording".

Nice try Zodiark, but that's not a contradiction. bobsnox is just bad at words or something.

jumping all over a miswording is pretty bad play.

Also bobs,

xvart - no I would not have claimed. But I had already made it obvious what I was by semi-clearing Parama. I was VERY against his lynching and I said there was a REASON I was "buddying up" to him. I thought I would be dead last night really. Actually, if Parama was scum I think he would've killed me last night too. So I'm even more sure he's town at this point.

Not sure about this. If parama is scum, I think he would want you alive, as your posts suggested you thought he was probably town.


@havignfitz, why are you voting parama over zodiark? You have barely mentioned zodiark as yet.

[bobsnox]

Yes, out of context, those words are contradictory, but context makes it pretty darn clear what I meant. Look at how I started the day for crying out loud:

Not sure about Zodiark anymore. His posts are obvscum but I have other evidence that puts him on the same playing field as Parama...

this is annoying

I never SAID he was clear. I said I was simply not sure. I mispoke when I later said I was "trying to clear him." I meant I was trying to direct attention elsewhere for the time being and come back to him later if need be (just like with Parama).

context context context.

FURTHERMORE I find it extremely annoying that NOBODY who is jumping all over me has noted how I ended yesterday:

If hrezs flips town I'm still voting zodiark tomorrow.

good lynch. if you're town you should lern2play.

Zodiark is still scum either way.

What is the scum motivation behind my supposed fake Tracker claim with THAT in view? I would like an answer from everyone on my wagon plus havingfitz. What is the scum motivation for easing off of Zodiark when I was pre-pushing his wagon REGARDLESS of what Hrezs would flip?

There is no SCUM motivation for responding to the Zodiark situation the way I have. If you take it ALL in context I am clearly being protown and everything I have done, as Parama has noticed, has clearly fit my claim. But I would still like to see some attempts at constructing a scum-based perspective of my actions.

Every single vote on me has been bad. I'm not sure which ones of them are scummy, but they are all bad, and they all break down on this point.

[xvart]

FURTHERMORE I find it extremely annoying that NOBODY who is jumping all over me has noted how I ended yesterday:

If hrezs flips town I'm still voting zodiark tomorrow.

good lynch. if you're town you should lern2play.

Zodiark is still scum either way.

What is the scum motivation behind my supposed fake Tracker claim with THAT in view? I would like an answer from everyone on my wagon plus havingfitz. What is the scum motivation for easing off of Zodiark when I was pre-pushing his wagon REGARDLESS of what Hrezs would flip?

I don't recall anyone saying it is a fake result; why do you think that we think that? You illustrate my point pretty well with your own quotes. You were gung hoe Zodiark regardless of the alignment flip yesterday and then you tracked your number one suspect. It almost seems like you were looking for a reason to not vote him today, especially with your weak "hold the phones I have evidence that says Zodiark didn't go anywhere last night," which is in no way a town tell. Everything you believed about Zodiark being scum yesterday is still valid today.

Speaking of your entry into D3:

Oh wait. Gotta check something

What did you need to go check and what did it tell you?

Do you know what result you would get if you happened to be roleblocked?

I was hoping to seal the deal. It would've been the next best thing to a cop result if Zodiark targeted last night's kill. I also didn't think about the fact that they might not send Zodiark until someone (Parama?) brought it up today.

It was CooLskins in

Post 455

; and he wasn't the first to mention it. You were in

Post 445

:

You are either terrible town or scum. Your play is beyond scummy regardless of my evidence that suggests you might not be scum. You are still the best suspect based on your atrocious treatment of this game from the very beginning. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what I am.

Knowing that you'd be my target, I wouldn't be surprised if you guys had someone else send in the NK.

[xvart]

Also, why were you not worried about being NKed if it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you are a tracker?

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote bobsnox

This isnt fitting together at all. I could see bob/parama bussing zodiark possibly, buy xvart makes good points. Bob has not been protown.

[Parama]

So right now we have all the smart people voting Zod, Zod trying to get bobsnox lynched, one of his scumbuddies in the neighbors assisting him, and the other neighbor being stupid. And havingfitz is making a fail and wasting his vote.
When Zodiark flips scum, I'm going to find out which of the neighbors is his buddy. Should be easy enough. Seeing the wagon now, no way in hell both neighbors are town.

[Parama]

deselby you need to vote
Haschel's replacement you need to join the game :<

[bobsnox]

Everything you believed about Zodiark being scum yesterday is still valid today.

True, but he took no action last night which is why I questioned it and said let's put him on hold for a bit. Why would I back down from my prior statements about how I would lynch him regardless of Hrezs's flip (especially since I wasn't the main proponent of Hrezs's lynch) for any other reason? I didn't back down to save my own skin. It doesn't make any sense that I would do that even if I were scum. It shows that I was actually thinking about what was going on. If I were scum, all I had to do was carry through with my promise and no attention would have been paid to me today.

What did you need to go check and what did it tell you?

Do you know what result you would get if you happened to be roleblocked?

I asked the mod if I would get a result on Zodiark even if he was awol and the mod had to pick a random target for him. Zodiark wasn't awol, though, so it was null basically. I don't think I read the part where the Mod named the awol dudes in his day scene or I wouldn't have asked.


You guys are really going the wrong way today. I'm surprised, although I admit I've goofed in how I've worded things. I kept trying to push this game along and now I'm getting screwed for how I went about it. Oh well. The smart thing to do is to keep me alive for a few days (mafia will surely kill me soon if they can't keep me from using my ability). But several people are being swayed by horrible rhetoric and the momentum of my wagon. It took a lot for me to take a step back and accept that Zodiark might not be scum at the beginning of the day. I would ask that those of you who are genuinely trying to win (I think xvart is one of them despite his incorrect stances) would do the same for me. It really doesn't make sense that I would be scum, nor does it make sense that I would be scum with Parama, nor does it make sense that I would try to steer the lynches away from both Parama and Zodiark (a strong town read and a strong scum read) if I'm scum. I have been making errors in wording and recall of events but there is zero scum motivation behind anything I've done. That is where people need to focus at this point.

Oh and I didn't say fake result. I said fake claim.

Also, why were you not worried about being NKed if it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you are a tracker?

xvart - no I would not have claimed. But I had already made it obvious what I was by semi-clearing Parama. I was VERY against his lynching and I said there was a REASON I was "buddying up" to him.

I thought I would be dead last night really.

[bobsnox]

Last things for tonight:

- I mispoke (again) earlier when I mentioned kondi being a possible buddy to the awol dudes. I didn't realize antihero/havingfitz was kondi's slot. I have a lot going on lately <_<. As such, I think my 2nd theory (all scum were awol) is null. We should consider why Celebloki was the intended scum kill at this point.

- I doubt there's a cop in this game so I'd really recommend thinking that over before I'm lynched. It seems to me there would've been something from the cop slot clearing or damning someone in this mess by now.

[havingfitz]

@havignfitz, why are you voting parama over zodiark? You have barely mentioned zodiark as yet.

Three people are still alive who were on both the Beck and Hrezs mislynches: bobsnox, Parama and xvart. I've changed my mind about bobsnox and am leaning town on him. That leaves me with parama and xvart out of the three common mislynchers. With three scum in this game (unless anyone thinks otherwise) I am banking on at least one scum in that group of three. After my skim through read I find Parama more suspect than xvart (subject to change) so he gets my vote. I haven't mentioned most of the players...Zodiark did not stand out in my read. I'm not confident that either of the L-2 wagons are scum.

What is the scum motivation behind my supposed fake Tracker claim with THAT in view? I would like an answer from everyone on my wagon plus havingfitz. What is the scum motivation for easing off of Zodiark when I was pre-pushing his wagon REGARDLESS of what Hrezs would flip?

I'm not interested in you atm.

So right now we have all the smart people voting Zod, Zod trying to get bobsnox lynched, one of his scumbuddies in the neighbors assisting him, and the other neighbor being stupid. And havingfitz is making a fail and wasting his vote.

Who is scum: you, bobsnox or xvart?

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote parama

this seems like a safer way to start. the bob parama connection is odd to say the least. imo, tracker is a role given to scum as often as it is a role given to town. the fact that parama seems to be going along with the claim is scummier than bob's play. parama claims to have picked up on the claim earlier. absolutely noone else did(except me, however, to me it read as though parama was claiming power and clearing bob. bob didn't mind, i even tossed this idea around in the neighbor qt and xvart was like "whatcu talkin bout?" it was very subtle. so if bob was clearing parama, why isn't parama the least bit suspicious now when bob is claiming watcher instead of cop? excuse me tracker. so we all know that tracker doesn't "clear" someone of scum alignment, yet bob is acting like his clear of parama is guaranteed. parama is going along with it without question. odd.

now bob claims to have trakced his biggest scumread last night whom he has also stated would not be the player on the scum team to be sent to perform the kill. of course, scum didn't know town had a tracker, right? this reads to me more like scum running fake claim than town being honest. details have not come out clean. thats the thing about fake claims, its hard to get everything to fit. the fact that this seems so jumbled it what makes me suspicious. bobs defense is, "well why would i protect parama?" well, if parama is your scum buddy and you are mafia tracker, then you have every incentive to. if parama is town, he should at least have been suspicious of you at some point. but he wasn't. in fact, he accepted your soft claim without question. maybe he even claims to have known which power role you were claiming, but common sense says, "you clear parama, parama has to assume you are cop, you claim tracker, parama should at least question you." but he doesn't. he just keeps going along with it. i don't know. something about this situation just stinks and bob is now saying "well keep me alive for a couple days, we probably don't have a cop." baiting out town power is not good form my friend.

anyhoo, i'm willing to start with parama to test the theory, in case bob is town. also, parama could be scum buddying town, so his lynch is a much better bet.