Team Mafia Results!

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Team Mafia Results!

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:52 am

Post by zoraster »

It is time to announce the awards for Team Mafia. It was a long, hard-fought battle, but the results are in. The following awards are given for fun (except the overall winner. That’s for serious.), so if you feel someone needs a scummy nomination, please don't hesitate to do so in the correct thread.

Best town performance by an individual

XReckonerX
– an impressive performance, either directly or indirectly leading to the elimination of all scum in the minimum amount of time.

Best mafia performance by an individual

mith
– Played several days worth of sudden death mafia and came out on top.

Best in-game team performance
(i.e. scum team from WF, town from AMG)

Mafia of Pick Your Power
(Hoopla, Faraday, Papa Zito). – While the town of Psychic mafia was perhaps more dominant, the best that can be said for the team as a whole is that they were smart enough to get out of Reckoner’s way. It was an individual performance. The mafia of PYP displayed a unity of purpose that helped lead to a very convincing scum win.

Overall Team Mafia Winner!

Screaming Death Clan (XReckonerX, Sociopath, Fate, SpyreX)


They will have an opportunity to defend their title in Team Mafia 2012 and will be the only team pre-inned* so long as at least three of their members stay the same. (Note: if the method of picking teams changes, this will have to be altered).

The method of doing sign-ups is not determined, but given the interest in the game, pre-ins do not seem necessary. In the interest of fairness, only the defending champs will get pre-inned.


Spoiler: How sausage was made
We took the 8 teams that tied on 50 points. Then we used a variety of ways to try and identify the teams that excelled. First, we took each moderator’s view of their own game and the people who did well in those games. Second, we took the MVPs as selected by the players. This was mostly just to try and get a little bit of sorting done before we looked at the game more holistically.

When we took a look at these initial results, it became clear that we would be choosing between SDC and Team Youtube (Hoopla, mith, Yosarian2, Ythill) with Punny Pony Party People (Faraday, Equinox, hitogoroshi, Mina) as a distant third. This was due to the fact that those two teams had two of the consensus MVPs for their games (Reck and mith) along with two split vote MVPs/second (Hoopla and Fate). None of the other teams came close to that, though Faraday and hitogoroshi both got love. Other players that did noticeably well were more one-offs (Nachomamma8) and usually only the MVP of a losing team (LLD, Llamafluff), which I didn’t give quite as much credit, or were on teams that didn’t have 50 points.

Having narrowed it down to two teams, we took a closer look. In my mind at least, I viewed the overall performances from these teams as:
1. Reckoner
2. mith
3. Hoopla
4. Fate

With the rest not really standing out.

That being the case, it was SDC with #’s 1 and 4 and Youtube with #’s 2 and 3. Pretty much a toss-up in my eyes. Because this was a team game, we took a look at the team’s performance as a team. How cohesive they worked together. How much the team aspect seemed to improve their play. So forth.

SDC won on that measure. Certainly they had more posts, but they were also more involved in each other’s games. Still, I’m not sure how far to take that. SDC had 3 town players to Youtube’s 1, and town games necessarily benefit more from teamwork. Still, teamwork was one of the stated criteria, and as such I needed to consider it.

In the end, we came to the decision to award the win to SDC for a few reasons. (1) It “felt” more like they won; (2) they showed more teamwork; (3) their combination of a very dominant individual town performance and a good scum performance seemed to somewhat outweigh the double scum victory; (4) the bad vengekill.

Finally, this is not to say that the other 5 teams not mentioned but at 50 points did not do well. They obviously did. This was meant as a tie-breaker. By the most important metric – whether you won a game or not – you did just as well as anyone else.


StandingsEvolution
PranaDevil Chris B bristep swiftstrike
--
0
--
The Kliq
Debonair Danny DiPietro Sotty7 VP Baltar Zachrulez
--
25
--
Ragnarök
Kise Thor 665 Nachomamma8 Iecerint
--
50
--
Zilch
Amrun Klazam Twistedspoon Hoppster
--
25
--
Radioactive Sparkly Kittens
Lady LambdaDelta DrippingGoofball esuriospiritus UncertainKitten
--
50
--
Screaming Death Clan
SpyreX SocioPath Fate XReckonerX
--
50
--
Punny Pony Party People
Faraday Equinox hitogoroshi Mina
--
50
--
The Mauve Avengers
GreyICE InflatablePie Fugitive Katsuki
--
50
--
Team http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHpaX5af8xc
Hoopla mith Yosarian2 Ythill
--
50
--
The Wolf Pack
RegFan DemonHybrid Nicodemus Parama
--
25
--
The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse
Super Smash Bros. Fan Llamarable ConSpiracy animorpherv1
--
50
--
Failboat on a river of blood
Papa Zito LLamaFluff camn populartajo
--
50
--
Team Fra Fra
quadz08 Sevei Cyberbob singersigner
--
0


Moderator Comments

First, I want to think all of the players who participated. It was a lot of fun to watch you all play the game out.

Second, I want to thank all of the moderators: Fonz, TheButtonmen, and dramonic.

Third, I want to thank all of the people who helped design the concept: Vi, Faraday, and SpyreX particularly, but there are many others who helped by posting comments and suggestions.

Fourth, there are many small things I think need to change before running the next one, but most of the improvements I think should come from two overarching areas:

A.
Points and winners.
I tried to have it both ways, and it predictably failed. I wanted to have it so that there wasn’t a bunch of point strategizing by keeping it simple. And I wanted to have points so that there were people who ostensibly “won.” But as it turned out, and this was totally foreseeable, an eight way tie was kind of the worst of both worlds. There are a number of solutions I’m going to probably try next time (some suggested by player comments, some of my own design), but suffice it to say I think the correct way to go about this would be to sacrifice the simplicity of the points, sacrifice the balanced fairness of “you get this many if you win, this many if you lose” points, in order to institute more ways to differentiate players and thus teams.
B.
Create a more cohesive team environment
. This really captures many suggestions and complaints. It captures those who wanted to talk more about other games in their game (totally valid, I think it was a mistake to do it the way I did it). It captures the people who wanted teams just to be announced (yeah, should have done it that way). It captures the people who wanted to communicate by IM (I doubt I’ll let this one happen though). But it also captures the need to make the games more intertwined. At the very least, the timing needs to be made more similar so we don’t have one game ending in 1 week and another lasting three months. Beyond that, it may be possible that the correct approach is to make each individual game more part of a whole rather than one-offs. I’m not sold on that yet, but it’s something I’m considering. Still, a radical change is probably not in the works on this, but I will consider them as they are suggested.

There are other complaints and comments I think are valid. But I think the above two points address the biggest things I’m likely to look into changing in the future.
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Post Post #6 (isolation #1) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:06 am

Post by zoraster »

Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Can we see the results of all the surveys?


Well, many of the survey text responses were probably meant to be confidential, but I can probably compile the results to the more generic answers. I'll look into that now
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Post Post #14 (isolation #2) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:43 am

Post by zoraster »

"With 10 as the highest please select how much you agree with the following"
I enjoyed my individual game
I enjoyed the game overall
I would play in team mafia again
The games were fair
The moderation of the games was good
Winning was more challenging than normal
I liked playing with my teammates

Survey Results for WFMVP-Winner: 66% mith, 33% llamarble
MVP-Loser: 50% Sociopath, 16.7% Thor665, chris b, Amrun

Enjoyed individual game? 7.25
Enjoyed overall? 7.25
Play Again? 7.88
Fair? 8.63
Moderation Good? 7.75
Challenging? 6.50
Liked Teammates? 8.25


Survey Results for AMGMVP-Winner: 66.7 Nacho, 22.2% Fate, 11.1% Fugitive
MVP-Loser: 55.6% hitogoroshi, 33.3% esurio, 11.1% VP Baltar

Enjoyed individual game? 5.67
Enjoyed overall? 6.11
Play Again? 7.00
Fair? 7.67
Moderation Good? 8.22
Challenging? 6.22
Liked Teammates? 8.33


Survey Results for PYPMVP-Winner: 62.5% Hoopla, 37.5% Faraday, 12.5% Papa Zito
MVP-Loser: 50% LLD, 12.5% GreyICE, SpyreX, PranaDevil, DDD

Enjoyed individual game? 6.67
Enjoyed overall? 8.44
Play Again? 7.67
Fair? 8.33
Moderation Good? 7.56
Challenging? 8.00
Liked Teammates? 7.67


Survey Results for PsychicMVP-Winner: 72.7% Reck, 18.2% Zachrulez
MVP-Loser: 50% singersigner, 40% Ythill, 10% swiftstrike

Enjoyed individual game? 7.92
Enjoyed overall? 7.42
Play Again? 8.00
Fair? 7.50
Moderation Good? 8.25
Challenging? 4.58
Liked Teammates? 8.17


OverallEnjoyed individual game? 6.95
Enjoyed overall? 7.32
Play Again? 7.66
Fair? 7.97
Moderation Good? 7.97
Challenging? 6.18
Liked Teammates? 8.11
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Post Post #29 (isolation #3) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:17 pm

Post by zoraster »

oh! duh. I almost forgot to include the youtube video for Random Generation Assurance Method. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf-9jrVh3bk *

So... yes. it was random. I wouldn't be opposed to listening to ideas on how I can make it not random yet still assure people can't use the flips of teammates to figure out the alignment of other people. But I can't think of a good way to do that, so random it is.

*I accidentally posted this to my personal youtube account. So... you can look at the videos of my cats.
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Post Post #31 (isolation #4) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:23 pm

Post by zoraster »

Not to take anything away from you, esurio, but one of the reasons I didn't put a whole lot of weight on player votes (especially for the losing side MVP) was that reputation is a hard thing to combat. I know when making my decision on who won, I had to fight that urge a lot. It's one of the reasons I'm hoping to create a better points system. I'm not fond of the moderators picking the winner as trying to judge without biases is tough if not impossible. And as a moderator with the ultimate responsibility over who won, I was on guard for that. I don't expect players to do the same.
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Post Post #35 (isolation #5) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:07 pm

Post by zoraster »

gorilla wrote:
zoraster wrote:I wouldn't be opposed to listening to ideas on how I can make it not random yet still assure people can't use the flips of teammates to figure out the alignment of other people.


Technically doesn't clear people's teammates. It's just an assumption that's more often than not going to be true, but that's because any given player is more likely to be town than not. *shrug*


Pardon me?
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Post Post #52 (isolation #6) » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:10 am

Post by zoraster »

gorilla wrote:
zoraster wrote:
gorilla wrote:
zoraster wrote:I wouldn't be opposed to listening to ideas on how I can make it not random yet still assure people can't use the flips of teammates to figure out the alignment of other people.


Technically doesn't clear people's teammates. It's just an assumption that's more often than not going to be true, but that's because any given player is more likely to be town than not. *shrug*


Pardon me?

Getting a scum role PM in one game doesn't make a team less likely to receive one in another game - the probabilities are independent. It's the same thing as assuming that if one player signs up for 4 mini games and gets a scum role PM for one he must be town in the others.


I don't think you read my post very well. I am well aware of independent random assignments. That's why I used the system I did. That said, it does have the risk of having one team with 3 or 4 scum roles, many with none. That's not ideal from a fairness standpoint, so if there were a way to divy it up so that each team got 1 or 2 scum roles, etc. without creating a meta problem, then I'd listen to it. I don't think it exists though.
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Post Post #54 (isolation #7) » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:41 am

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That does solve the problem (insofar as it really is a "problem"), but it introduces some bigger ones.
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Post Post #59 (isolation #8) » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:03 am

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First, all of the games did technically have the same deadline though the bankable deadline led to some differences (not to mention the effect of goofbash)

I have a few ideas on how to try and keep games more in line with each other. The problem is that many of the easier solutions have drawbacks. For example, if I simply said "all day 1s will last 2 weeks exactly" then there's likely to be "dead time" as quick lynching player bases sit around for a long time. That's not ideal.

For what it's worth, I've been playing with some other ideas on the subject such as having a somewhat formula that uses deadline shortening, extending AND lynch requirement shifting based on the average game's day and where an individual game is. For example, if a game 1 was in D3, game 2 and 3 were in D2, and game 4 was in D1, then I might add days to the deadline of Game 1 and increase the number to lynch and do the opposite to Game 4 (decrease deadline, reduce the number needed to lynch).

But that was just something I was considering. I'll return to it more seriously in a few month's time. Part of the deadline system will depend on how the rest of game is designed.
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Post Post #61 (isolation #9) » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:31 am

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True, but it's not unavoidable, so long as the formula is simple and easy to understand and people keep an eye on the other games.
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Post Post #69 (isolation #10) » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:25 am

Post by zoraster »

Still, so long as it's up to judges to pick between 8 different teams, there is at least somewhat of an advantage to getting more scum games than town games. It's just easier to stick out as a good player that way. For one thing, scum have a higher survival rate, even with a vigilante in the mix. I tried to take into consideration that going out early COULD be the best thing for a team (i.e. VT dying N1), but that's hard to control for. For another thing, if I'm evaluating (as I did to a degree) by choosing the best player from each team, just by random chance a scum player has a better shot at being MVP for his side, and thus getting some kudos from the judges.

So even though points wise, you're absolutely right -- getting scum is equal risk and reward -- at least under the way we did it this time, it rewards teams with more scum roles even if the individual games are perfectly balanced.

Let me be clear in case I haven't been recently: random choice is the only way I see to assign roles unless the game was designed wildly differently. That's perfectly fine with me, and it's in keeping with mafiascum as a whole. But it does describe a reason (one of several) that I'm in favor of trying to get away from overall subjective judgments to decide the winner by instituting a point system that takes the end decision away from me.

That's not to say a future point system couldn't involve a measure of subjectivity, but it should be subjectivity that's narrow in focus. For example, +2 points for being the driving force on a successful lynch on a mafia member as town* involves subjectivity, but it's far easier for a judge to determine.

*Please note: this is not an actual suggestion for how points will be structured; it's only an example of the way it could use subjectivity in a narrower way.
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Post Post #80 (isolation #11) » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:46 pm

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Yeah. That sort of bothered me when I got the random list and saw that the vast majority of teams had exactly one scum player. I knew that someone would apply that faulty logic and be right for the wrong reasons because of it. But so it goes.
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