TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Please... ftlog... stop with the setup speculation. This is not helping the game AT ALL and is a HUGE distraction.

We havent said much about Chevre recently because Zinger has been such a distraction, but we would like to bring up a few points that we think stand out.

...
We will unvote, vote Chevre. Enters, and makes a completely random vote, totally ignoring the somewhat more relevant vezok stuff that was already happening, then unvotes without coming up with a new one, and makes a comment about the nameclaim stuff that was already resolved. We're not seeing any pressing scumhunting motivation from that slot. Unvote, vote: Chevre.
...

I ignored because, really, what else was there to say? vezok's idea was a bad one, and plenty of people had already said that. As for the last part of this excerpt of your post, I'll be honest: I didn't have any motivation. When I read those first five pages and saw such a mess, I didn't want to come back and try to sift through it. This isn't a town or scum tell, it's a human being tell.

This is BS. I am a human being, and quess what? I read them because I want to find scum. That is the way you find scum, you read and you look for the poster's motivation behind the post.

Also, this post right here is pretty much a microcosm of Chevre's play thus far:

Pinky and the Brain: I've read Post #417 thrice now, and I have to ask, why did you put the case for izak in spoiler? It seems like something a skimmer would just brush right over.

Zinger townslipped. He's town.

You need to explain this.

Meransiel - activity is not measured in post counts. I have provided more information in one post than you have have in all your posts.

Zinger2009, are you town? It's a simple yes/no question.

Also, Meransiel, after your apparent revelation with marco, are you going to contribute now?

How is any of this useful for town? From bitching about a player's formatting to telling us we "need to explain" to asking "are you scum" (not going to produce anything useful) to asking Meransiel to contribute, what is any of this going to accomplish? What is this going to do for town? Nothing. This has been Chevre so far, no scumhunting and making asinine comments that dont move the game along. Chevre is among our top scumreads, and we thought we would let everyone know our opinions on him.

We still prefer a Zinger lynch at this point though. His retraction of his third party claim makes it more likely that he is scum. Retracting such a claim is a survival -minded move. He should never have claimed third party as town, whilst it makes some sense for a third party player who is survival oriented to say WHATEVER THE HELL IT TAKES to stay alive, and we *might* see him doing a third party claim as scum, hoping to buy time. We don't think the 'permanently roleblocked' thing is the sort of thing a town gambiter would come up with off the top of his head. The most likely thing is he is actually third party, with an outside chance of being scum. Also, if the town is NOT going to lynch him, then it needs to commit to NEVER lynching him (barring investigation) and hoping for a vigging. This is important - any later day, we will have more info than today, so lynching Zinger will have a higher opportunity cost.

Also, we have one more comment, for Junpei. Junpei, your extreme arrogance is unsupported by your experience on this site. Learning humility will help you play better.

[Junpei]

I think it's too early to determine his partners if he has any, I really can't tell you that, I need to analyze the situation more and it isn't something I can do before Zinger dies d1.

This. I don't like this post, it smells funny.

I agree (and not just because it implicates me). I have thought all along that Junpei's focus on me has always been a vote of convenience.

As time passed and I gave him more to work with, he gained more credibility, but his initial vote had very little momentum.

And the fact that he is willing to kill someone before analyzing the situation surrounding that person in detail is certainly suspect.

Well it isn't a vote of convenience, it is a vote that I believe is correct. Seriously sometimes I think it is silly how you people believe that the easier lynch is always bad, and that those spearheading it are usually scum. There are correct lynches on lurkers and easy lynches, in a few days I'll have a perfect example of that for you.

I have analyzed the situation surrounding you in detail, I am far more engaged in what is going on than your post gives me credit for. I have a detailed list of reasons of why I want you dead and I've articulated them very clearly several times.

Anyways, I'm gone for the rest of today and most of tomorrow, will catch up.

[David Xanatos]

This may be slightly redundant, but any chance of another vote count?

[Chevre]

Lynch all Liars is a bad thing to think.
...

Can you explain this? It always seems in my experience that the majority of people believe this is a good idea.

I think the major problem in this game right now is that people are not taking my advice from #430

We cannot simply ignore one player slot. That's why such a big ordeal ensued when Meransiel asked to be left alone until Day 2.

@Chevre – Who is scum? By this point you should realistically have at least 3 to 4 possible candidates. Looking through your ISO I see many questions but little in the way of developed reads coming from those questions.

Zinger2009 has claimed a third-party, and then tried to backtrack on that claim. He engulfed this in emotional and foolish play. He is my top suspect; therefore, my vote is on him.
Meransiel waiting until Day 2 to do anything big is suspicious. I've tried to think if it could be some sort of role, but I've decided we'll just see what happens on Day 2.
ZeL1nK tell the populace to ignore Zinger is crazy talk. As I've stated above, I feel no one should be ignored.
Pine is lurking suspiciously.
We all really shouldn't forget how suspicious Junpei's predecessor Vifam was, even though she's claimed tracker.
and silverdrummer's fascination with Pine is very odd and anti-town.

...
This is BS. I am a human being, and quess what? I read them because I want to find scum. That is the way you find scum, you read and you look for the poster's motivation behind the post.
...

I guess your motivation is significantly larger than mine. This game is only one of many things that fill up my life. I still have full faith in the point I made.

From bitching about a player's formatting to telling us we "need to explain" to asking "are you scum" (not going to produce anything useful) to asking Meransiel to contribute, what is any of this going to accomplish? What is this going to do for town? Nothing. This has been Chevre so far, no scumhunting and making asinine comments that dont move the game along.

PitB's spoilering of things in his posts and not petty nitpicking. It seems pointless; you are just asking for players to skim over a spoiler. It doesn't seem as important as the other things in the post. And you do need to explain; have you explained the apparent "townslip" yet? Especially now that you're voting Zinger? I did not ask "are you scum," I asked "are you town;" there is a difference. Zinger was being horrendously cryptic and I wanted a straight yes/no answer from him. And meransiel did need to contribute.

And a vote count would be heavenly.

[andrew94]

you see, at L1 people claim.
if we are not lynching people who claim a pr, then who are we gonna lynch
scum can claim pr as well you know

[silverdrummer]

Alright catching up again...

p29. nothing of note really

p30. Pine is getting replaced... but that still doesn't excuse the slot. My other head makes a.... "substantial post".... and I'm not sure what his problem is. Has any hydra ever had a head die? Maybe my first hydra will. (I saw this message before when skimming and messaged him about it but again he's gone mia for me once more. I like the hydras I have seen that had independent thoughts and squabbled amongst eachother in thread and in qt... that'd be nice.)
nothing much else to comment on.

p31 zeilink screams town... we keep talking about the "gambit theory.." Meran's actually giving a shit... what motivates that when he wasn't near a lynch?

Question though

@MERAN
For page 15 you state I win scumpoints cause I put my vote on Pine instead of marcus, ignoring that I state my reasons and all that good jolly such... there are only 2 votes on Pine (including mine) at that time. Thus I can only assume Marcus has no votes at this point... I'm checking this... yes this is the case... do you truly believe that one more vote on one suspect would motivate a scum to vote one over the other?

As I continue to read meran's post... I'm seeing a pattern with all posts that he comments on regarding mine.

Simply the most interesting thing about that whole post is that you discuss Pine and the "Pine wagon" ... yet don't even give a hint as to how you feel about him... except that he's a simple lurker.

p32 Why are people still asking for Zinger's claim... really not much else I get from this...

p33 first post about me! yay. I also like that my head states... he drew a bunch of heat.. and then I drew a bunch of heat.

MOI....

If I did want to do that I’d again bring up Umbrage’s Jungle Republic where your other head did there what it is doing exactly here …. disappearing under suspicion while actively posting around site. Oh look, there is CJ now.

That was in relation to the vifam slot... why make the switch all of a sudden.

mmm I really wish we had more votecounts... I wonder who of the four stated in meran's list has more votes... (If it is me at this point there's hypocrisy and meran gets added to my list of please die... )

@Leon

@Silverdrummer: Is there a reason you've been tunneling and advocating the lynch of a lurker all day? I don't think lurkers make for good D1 lynches, do you disagree? (Note that active lurkers are different from lurkers)

I've explained the initial reasons countless times now... I agree with your second sentence depending on the circumstance. As a few people have risen to try to sway the pine lynch... I think it would be more than helpful. (There was still that one person who suggested that he had a post restriction.. i think it was fry but I don't remember.)

and p34... I agree with dave's post asking for another votecount... really one per page... or so would be... excellent... to say the least (yes I realize this is a large game and I understand that's rough and i'm not badtalking or anything but yes... please more votecounts)

and that's it.

[Rodion]

Also notice how Zinger is derailing the thread with you, this topic of game theory this early is worthless.

I am not derailing the thread. The theory we are discussing is pertinent to the current situation and has merit to be discussed.

Whether or not there is a mafia jail keeper shouldn't be relevant to you as you believe yourself to be a town jail keeper correct?

Although I have to admit, this comment here is pretty intelligent.

Mind blown.

Quick recap of events.

Basically Zel1nk, his play makes zero sense as town as well. The only real explanation is that he was a gambitting scum or third party whose wifom went horribly wrong. These things happen.

Fastposted by Junpei: Zinger's play does not make zero sense. I can understand the idea of claiming third-party to not go up in mafia's NK list of priorities while using his powers to aid town. While I don't recommend that playing style, saying it makes "zero sense" is stretching it.

3) Rodion, does claiming JK, a ROLEBLOCKER, make any sense as town?

Are you trying to imply that roleblockers are necessarily/usually anti-town? My off-site experience says the opposite, particularly when he is a jailkeeper (doctor + roleblocker).

A roleblocker that has no motivation to help town is anti-town. He is going to target whoever the fuck he wants, and that includes possible town PRs.

So is any other role that has no motivation to help town.. You basically said that he is bad for town simply because he is a roleblocker. When argued that roleblockers are not inherently anti-town, you claimed that an anti-town roleblocker is anti-town. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Even if I had claimed full on Roleblocker, what difference would it make? Just because it might be more commonly a scum role, doesn't mean it is in this game.

That's a terrible argument.

And for the record, the Jailkeeper role was originally created as a fix to the Doctor (to prevent the powerful Doc-Cop combo), so while it does Roleblock people, it spawned from the Doctor, not the Roleblocker. I don't see how being a Jailkeeper makes you more likely to be scum in any way.

Jailkeeper CAN'T be a scum role. So claiming jailkeeper is opportunistically scummy. Not saying that you are, just giving my general opinion.

Wrong. Later on someone (Pinky, I guess) shows a game you played that had a mafia jailkeeper and you "rested your case" by saying there was more than 1 mafia faction. You don't yet know whether this game has 1 or more mafia faction (unless your scum role PM hints you at that), so rushing to conclude that there cannot be mafia jailkeepers just seem wrong.

I was talking about third party JKs. We were already on the topic of you being third party, and I said that you weren't just claiming survivor, you were claiming a roleblocking third party, which is bad.

*facepalms*

I have been in games where scum had protective roles. Scum can need protection, from becoming Vig targets.

Mafia doctor =/= Mafia jailkeeper.

You do realize that if a scum team is reduced to 2 players, one of them a jailer, and decides to use his protect, they basically lose their night kill?


PEDIT: Ok, thanks, I'm cool with that, PV.

So? there are plenty of roles that generally become harder to use/useless for scum once they are reduced to 2 or 1 player. At that point, the jailkeeper basically just becomes a roleblocker. There's nothing weird or wrong about that.

Also notice how Zinger is derailing the thread with you, this topic of game theory this early is worthless.

I am not derailing the thread. The theory we are discussing is pertinent to the current situation and has merit to be discussed.

Whether or not there is a mafia jail keeper shouldn't be relevant to you as you believe yourself to be a town jail keeper correct?

It became relevant after #783 (by Meran) was used to possibly discredit Zinger's claim.

Although I have to admit, this comment here is pretty intelligent.

I could elaborate more, but

every

Zinger post in this interaction is correct, while every Junpei/Meran post is either wrong ("scum can't have jailkeepers") or unnecessary ("a RB that does not wish to help town is anti-town"). Do note that this conversation was not started by Zinger, he was merely reacting when Junpei claimed that roleblockers were inherently bad (while his claimed role isn't even roleblocker) and when Meran falsely argued that his chosen claim was "so town that it could look scummy" (without actually stating it, perhaps for distancing purposes?). In the end, Junpei claims Zinger is derailing the thread when he is merely correcting poor assumptions by Junpei/Meran. Junpei ends it saying he shouldn't defend the possibility of a mafia jailkeeper if he believes he is a town one (which is a way of preventing Zinger to defend himself from Meran's #783) and Meransiel praises the intelligence of the said comment.

For now, UNVOTE: Zinger.

I'm reading Junpei and Meran going out of their respective ways to make Zinger look bad, which can be an attempt to push for a mislynch (or a 3rd-party lynch that is also good for scum).

VOTE: David Xanatos. Vote stays until I get an answer to #750.

[Rodion]

One more thing!

3. Rodion providing the games. Didn't take much effort so I'm not any more forgiving of him for doing that. The relevant part of his post (last 2 rows) is still pure tunneling on the leading wagon. Scumpoints.

Please explain why I get scumpoints for answering chkballin's question.

[vollkan]

Raising the 'possibility' of a gambit is an enormous stretch. Zinger hasn't claimed it was a gambit, and the way he has dealt with it (repeated backflips, anger and now contrition) are completely at odds with gambiting behaviour. Also, you ignore the prospect that this is actually a gambit from zinger-scum

Actually I did claim it was a gambit. Just saying.

I've already addressed this. Zel raised the previously unstated possibility of it being a reaction-test, which you never suggested. You raised the (frankly ridiculous) notion of a gambit where scum wouldn't kill you because you are third-party.

Spoiler: Zinger v Vollkan

In your given example, yes the team-mates would be furious. But this is hardly the World Cup of Mafia games. This is backyard soccer at best. I hope you can appreciate how your example is hardly consistent with the circumstances. I say again: sure the teammates might be miffed that one of their team kicked the ball into the wrong goal, but they aren't going to throw that teammate to the ground and kick him and say "I don't ever want to play soccer with you again," nor will they go to the referee and say "can you kick him off the team because he kicked the ball into the wrong goal?" You won't see that behaviour in any kind of soccer game, not even professional ones. I have seen that kind of behaviour here.

This is what you don't seem to get: mafia on this site is treated like the World Cup. It's a time-intensive, lengthy commitment that people put a lot of effort into. You openly admitted that you were effectively playing "for lulz" - which might be fine if you have an agreement from everybody else that the game is purely for a laugh (eg. Marathon Games on this site are typically not very serious), but is quite simply selfish and sabotaging behaviour in any other context.

Multiscum game. I rest my case.

How does that prove your case? Mafia JKs are by no means an unusual or weird role; the fact that a game is multiscum doesn't alter that.

Please provide my any circumstances (Town / Scum / 3rd Party) where it is plausible for someone to make claims as Zinger has? You immediately ruling out Town when I can’t see a single scenario that is net gain for Zinger’s alignment to act as he has troubles me. It's a stupid move regardless of what alignment he is.

I've actually said myself that it's irrational no matter what his alignment.

My point is that the role he claimed first up was an anti-town role. He gets pressured and, after a number of contortions, claims town JK, under the pretext of a gambit. If he'd claimed mafia or SK and then backflipped with a "lol, sorry - gambit", he'd have been lynched five pages ago. Every action he is taken since his initial claim is referable to a survival motive. Thus, we have an anti-town motivation and the absence of any town motivation.

So I'm leaving silverbullet to reap what he's sown. I'm sorry if that doesn't sit with you, or whatever, but I think that I shouldn't have to be part of silverbullet's argument if he didn't originally check with me on the vote, or anything.

I don't think this is scummy so much as something that you guys are going to have to stop right now. Hydras are normally not a violation of out-of-game-communicatoin rules, but once you start saying "I'll defer to my other head on this one", you are ceasing to play this game as a single player.

[Meransiel]

@silver - the size of a wagon is less important than whether you're the first one voting on him or not. And you said in your post what my opinion of Pine is: just a simple lurker.

@volkan - It does. Only multiscum have a reason to have Mafia JK. We will know that this is multiscum after the night passes. We can PRETEND this is not multiscum until a night passes. Comprendre?

@Rodion - Quick question. Are. You. Stupid? How the fuck can I advocate the lynch of someone I think is town?

[vollkan]

@volkan - It does. Only multiscum have a reason to have Mafia JK. We will know that this is multiscum after the night passes. We can PRETEND this is not multiscum until a night passes. Comprendre?

That's not true at all.

A JK has two functions: 1) Roleblock, and 2) Protect. Roleblock is ALWAYS useful for scum. Protect is useful if there is multiscum OR a town vig.

Moreover, the fact that a JK power is redundant in a no-vig, single-scumgroup game doesn't militate against the presence of JK; it must means that a JK has less utility in a setup (as in, it's a balance consideration)

[Meransiel]

No, it's not a balance consideration. 99% of the time it is just as strong as a mafia roleblocker, so there's nothing really different balance wise.

[vollkan]

No, it's not a balance consideration. 99% of the time it is just as strong as a mafia roleblocker, so there's nothing really different balance wise.

You misunderstand me. The fact that a role is redundant is no reason not to include it; it just means that the role has less utility than it otherwise would.

Eg. in a setup without cops, an inv-imm GF is useless for scum, but plenty of mods, if only out of slight bastardry, will include one

Less bastardly, including a JK in a setup where the protection power is of little to no use does not make the role itself inherently untenable

[ZeL1nK]

Actually, JK isnt even redundant in a game with a single scum faction. It could be used, for example, to both roleblock and stop people targeting a scummy claimed-PR. But this discussion is pretty much irrelevant and should be dropped.

@vollkan,

My point is that the role he claimed first up was an anti-town role.

Is the fact that he didn't know it was 'anti-town' a moot point for you?

Consider this for a moment, as crazy as it may be... He is town, and claimed a third party role that he thought was neutral (not anti-town), as a gambit of sorts (to avoid NKs).

IMO, ^ that description of what happened makes the most sense. Do you really think it's more likely he actually is third party or scum? Like, I suppose it's possible he's scum and he did it to look like town gambiting, but that's an overly complex explanation with pretty severe repercussions if he didn't pull it off (and, IMO, it's not something Zinger would think to do as scum, anyway).

[Meransiel]

One more thing!

3. Rodion providing the games. Didn't take much effort so I'm not any more forgiving of him for doing that. The relevant part of his post (last 2 rows) is still pure tunneling on the leading wagon. Scumpoints.

Please explain why I get scumpoints for answering chkballin's question.

You get no points, neither scum nor town for answering. That is why I said the only part of your post that is relevant is the end, and the end is scummy.

[Meransiel]

Actually, JK isnt even redundant in a game with a single scum faction. It could be used, for example, to both roleblock and stop people targeting a scummy claimed-PR. .

I don't understand this statements. And we can have multi-layered discussions just fine. As long as the top layer is relevant.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Actually, JK isnt even redundant in a game with a single scum faction. It could be used, for example, to both roleblock and stop people targeting a scummy claimed-PR. .

I don't understand this statements. And we can have multi-layered discussions just fine. As long as the top layer is relevant.

Zel1ink is assuming the 'strong' version of JK, called an Alien on Xylbot, where the JK effectively removes the player from the game for a night, rendering him untargetable as well as roleblocking, rather than merely

protecting,

which is the standard on MS.

The thing about scum JK is twofold:

1) It counters the 'JK must be town' meta
2) It can be used as a mafia doctor on a player not performing the kill (as it was in Simpsons)
3) It doesn't permit of the bet-hedging 'kill AND roleblock' strategy, which scum occasionally use.

Also, whoever claimed it was conceived as a doc alternative, not an RB alternative is laughable, since Yos2 invented it, and he uses it primarily as a roleblocking action. Also note that there's no reason that him claiming JK means he actually is one: JK is a common claim for a scum RB since people tend to distrust town RB claims.

@Meri: Why is tunnelling scummy?

[chkballin]

Currently working to spruce the David case with some new points, rebut his rebut, and respond to some posts.

I truly enjoy andrew's posts and how fantastically tunnely they are; especially considering the multitude of things he ignores when he posts. Same with Chevre.

I'd super appreciate it if we stopped the theory talk and just move the fuck on already.

Can anyone who thinks David is town give me some reasons why?

~

CHK

[Meransiel]

@Meri: Why is tunnelling

the biggest and easiest wagon without providing other suspects

scummy?

Dunno.

[Meransiel]

Same with Chevre.

I like you.

[ThAdmiral]

@ everyone voting zinger: Do you people really believe he is scum? If not you are going for a

cop-out, sub-optimal lynch

.

Nice way to twist everything to make it seem like Zinger is a bad lynch and that those voting him are going for a 'cop out'. I stand by this lynch as I do think he is either scum or third party, this is not a cop-out and this is not a sub-optimal lynch. He has fullclaimed and I am still ready to lynch him.

Also we can stop talking about game setup theory as we aren't going to outguess the mod this early on.

I said those who are voting him even if they don't believe he is scum.
If you believe he is scum you have a right to stand by your vote, but I also think you are wrong.

I'm not going to unvote Zinger yet because as a player, he's openly lied to town, and in doing so, assuming he is telling the truth (which I still have doubts on)has revealed a Town power role with little to no reason.

So the best solution you can come up with as punishment for early revealing a Town Powerrole (if he is Town) is to lynch that player?

That’s scumtastic reasoning David.

Good pickup from MoI. That is hilariously bad from david. Back up my scumlist you go!

@Thad Pine's slot is getting replaced. So why are you voting it?

Didn't see that...

unvote

I think it's too early to determine his partners if he has any, I really can't tell you that, I need to analyze the situation more and it isn't something I can do before Zinger dies d1.

This. I don't like this post, it smells funny.

I know. He's claimed tracker and all, but he's really scummy right?

Zinger, don't think too hard about it. You know how hard it is to fake a tracker registry for two nights or more?

Mafia-tracker is a rare but possible role.

Tossing up between silver and davidX. Will vote for whoever has more votes but am probably leaning towards david at this stage.

vote: davidX

@ mod: votecount pls!

[David Xanatos]

Rodion > Bit of idiocy on my part there I'm afraid. I was JK in a two-scum player game in which the first died night one.. so any unblocked kill ended up confirming someone. Didn't quite think about the mechanics of it when not applied to that.. I feel a bit prattish now. >_<

And I note that MoI still hasn't responded to my reply, and now ThAdmiral is using his post to justify a vote on me.. once again, skimming or an actual attempt at misrepresentation?

Zinger 10 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, 3isFrench, Izak, Pappum,Cherve, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan
Silverdrummer 5 - Slate, Oversoul, Nero, Meran, MoI
DavidX 4 - CHKBallin,PeregrineV, Rodion, ThAdmiral
Izak 3 - ZeL1nk, Pinky
Pine 1 - Silver
Chkballin 1 - Andrew

[David Xanatos]

Suppliment towards Rodion > And also, in my defense, it was 4:30am. Mental faculties not exactly firing on all pistons at that point.

[David Xanatos]

@Leon (Post #820) - Don't you find it a little.. ironic that you're calling a Hydra out on being semi-inactive?

Meran - "Anyway, since you guys are not interested in killing off non-posters" - Might sound a little nitpicky, but why use that phrase? Are you serious advocating the lynch of essentially a random for being less active?

[Meransiel]

@Leon (Post #820) - Don't you find it a little.. ironic that you're calling a Hydra out on being semi-inactive?

Meran - "Anyway, since you guys are not interested in killing off non-posters" - Might sound a little nitpicky, but why use that phrase? Are you serious advocating the lynch of essentially a random for being less active?

No, I have suspects that are lurking right now, but I'm NOT suspecting them for the lurking in particular. Nothing random there. But since people don't seem to care about those, I will let Zel1nk handle the issue. Oh, about that, almost forgot:

@Zel1nk: If you vig Zinger, I will replace out.