[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

[Kid Know Nothing]

You seem to have quite the problem with ponies not doing anything in this town. Is that standard or did I fly in here during an "off" week?

I realize that we have some Derpy Hooves types like Yonzy here that are more of a threat to themselves than friendship, but a few others are getting by much more slyly.

Vote Kid Know Nothing

He has done nothing useful in this game but attempt to trap people with shadows of overaggression when its actually pro-town to ask questions about why votes exist. He also is passively attacking punching bag Derpy, which is far more mallicious than voting for them. It feels like egging a wagon on, when that would best be served by actually voting there. Now I know everyone is going to be all like "But Rainbow, he already is voting for somepony!". Well yeah he is, but he is doing nothing to further that case, just sitting on it.

*whew* see

10 seconds.

Asking questions is not the only way to play the game. Lies are easy to fake, reactions not so much. And I just changed my vote to Avas, who has yet to come on and respond to it. Or post since then. How am I supposed to further my case when there is literally nothing else to discuss until Avas posts?

[Rainbowdash]

Asking questions is not the only way to play the game. Lies are easy to fake, reactions not so much.

If anypony is remotely competent they are.

And I just changed my vote to Avas, who has yet to come on and respond to it. Or post since then. How am I supposed to further my case when there is literally nothing else to discuss until Avas posts?

You are sitting on a nonexistant case. What you are pushing them for is that they reacted like scum would react to somepony throwing out a vote without any reasoning by voting for them AND asking questions about a baseless vote. If that is the scum reaction, what the hay is the town reaction? Blindly bandwagoning you? Ignoring the vote? Asking questions but NOT voting you?

Somepony must have been kicked in the head as a filly. Or is a threat to the magic of friendship.

[avasthearties]

And I just changed my vote to Avas, who has yet to come on and respond to it. Or post since then. How am I supposed to further my case when there is literally nothing else to discuss until Avas posts?

Alright, response here then. Your vote is pretty clear OMGUSing. How would you expect someone to react to your explanation-less vote? Your argument is illogical as there is no way you can make that previous vote out to be a pro-town action. I voted you in an attempt to pressure some explanation out of you, and all of the action you have taken since then has made me decide to keep my vote on you. It seems to me that you made that previous vote so that you could think of a way to attack whoever mentioned it; since you did not provide an argument with it, you were free to make up your own explanation for it as the situation unfolded. This apparent attempt at trying to create an easy target to attack strikes me as perhaps the most scummy action in this game so far, so my vote will remain on you. Your vote on me simply fits in with my idea of what you were trying to do with that previous vote.

[Rainbowdash]

And I just changed my vote to Avas, who has yet to come on and respond to it. Or post since then. How am I supposed to further my case when there is literally nothing else to discuss until Avas posts?

Alright, response here then. Your vote is pretty clear OMGUSing. How would you expect someone to react to your explanation-less vote? Your argument is illogical as there is no way you can make that previous vote out to be a pro-town action. I voted you in an attempt to pressure some explanation out of you, and all of the action you have taken since then has made me decide to keep my vote on you. It seems to me that you made that previous vote so that you could think of a way to attack whoever mentioned it; since you did not provide an argument with it, you were free to make up your own explanation for it as the situation unfolded. This apparent attempt at trying to create an easy target to attack strikes me as perhaps the most scummy action in this game so far, so my vote will remain on you. Your vote on me simply fits in with my idea of what you were trying to do with that previous vote.

Everypony else needs to buck up though.

Like give me a paragraph on why someone in this game is mafia. In their next post. Or suffer wrath.

[Rainbowdash]

You ponies make Fluttershy look like Pinky Pie.

SOMEPONY SAY SOMETHING!!

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I'm going to have very limited access tomorrow (I don't know if I'll be able to make any posts) and I might have limited access the following day as well.

Sorry guys. This V/LA was unexpected.

[Horrifying Hero]

Sup? Skimmed through the thread a few days ago, I'll read it over again tomorrow and then post.

One of my mini normal games is finished, and another is in the night, so I'll be able to focus on this game.

~Lat

[Kid Know Nothing]

And I just changed my vote to Avas, who has yet to come on and respond to it. Or post since then. How am I supposed to further my case when there is literally nothing else to discuss until Avas posts?

Alright, response here then. Your vote is pretty clear OMGUSing. How would you expect someone to react to your explanation-less vote? Your argument is illogical as there is no way you can make that previous vote out to be a pro-town action. I voted you in an attempt to pressure some explanation out of you, and all of the action you have taken since then has made me decide to keep my vote on you. It seems to me that you made that previous vote so that you could think of a way to attack whoever mentioned it; since you did not provide an argument with it, you were free to make up your own explanation for it as the situation unfolded. This apparent attempt at trying to create an easy target to attack strikes me as perhaps the most scummy action in this game so far, so my vote will remain on you. Your vote on me simply fits in with my idea of what you were trying to do with that previous vote.

The point of an unexplained vote is to see how people react to it. You want to see pro-town reactions to it?

Kid Know Nothing wrote:
unvote, vote yonzy

Care to actually explain your reads?

Notice the lack of redundant "scummy vote is scummy". Straightfoward.

I've also already noted the fact that Yonzy's post was incredibly scummy. In obvious ways. Incredibly obvious ways, painfully obvious ways. I refuse to buy into a VI or "Derpy Pony" title simply because it's insulting.

What amount of pressure does one vote truly have? I've been sitting on L-2 for two pages and still haven't changed by playstyle or freaked out.

Explain how my vote attempted to create an easy target. If my argument is illogical, then the only easy target that's come of it should be me.

[HezLucky]

There is at least one scum in: Yonzy, avasthehearties, tarsonisocelot

Why? Go look at the activity overview. All three are lurking their butts off, preventing this game from progressing. Since it's stalling the game, it's not at all a pro-town move.

I'm not by any means suggesting to go on a lurker hunt. I want Yank lynched. I've already outlined why [his recent OMGUS tirade against me does him no favours either], but those three names are worth storing in the back of your head for later.

[HezLucky]

Even on second look, both Yonzy and LobsterCatapult are probably due for a prod.

[YankCane151]

There is at least one scum in: Yonzy, avasthehearties, tarsonisocelot

Why? Go look at the activity overview. All three are lurking their butts off, preventing this game from progressing. Since it's stalling the game, it's not at all a pro-town move.

I'm not by any means suggesting to go on a lurker hunt. I want Yank lynched. I've already outlined why

[his recent OMGUS tirade against me does him no favours either],

but those three names are worth storing in the back of your head for later.

Way to answer it. I'll chalk up another point in 'Trying to look protown' with this post and "Trying to appear omniscent" as well.

Not to mention you really haven't outlined why. You thought my first post was scummy (I pointed out the contradiction, which again, you didn't answer. ), unvoted me, then went back when someone else built a case, based on something different. Hmm. I wouldn't call it an "OMGUS tirade" without explaining why you feel it's such. You're not going to get people believing you by saying one thing but not expanding more. That goes back to that "trying to appear town" thing which, by the way, you're voting

me

for. avasthehearties just posted a case and isn't lurking anymore, so there's another fallacy. Tarson posted before the time between your latest two posts and the one before that, though she does need more info. Yonzy I will agree is lurking. There's no need so say "I'm not by any means suggesting to go on a lurker hunt", that's just covering your own backside. Here, let me go back through this one quote and strikethrough everything that is filler/trying to appear town.

There is at least one scum in: Yonzy, avasthehearties, tarsonisocelot

Why? Go look at the activity overview. All three are lurking

their butts off, preventing this game from progressing. Since it's stalling the game, it's not at all a pro-town move.

I'm not by any means suggesting to go on a lurker hunt.

I want Yank lynched.

I've already outlined why

[his recent OMGUS tirade against me does him no favours either],

but those three names are worth storing in the back of your head for later.

So basically you turned a post where all you had to say was I want these 4 people lynched and threw in a bunch of attempting to look town in there. Good Job.

Really not helping your case here.

[YankCane151]

Hez, You were after Anon until he finally agreed with you on something. I believe you're letting him direct your vote. Is it possible bussing during RVS then teaming later? Sure, but I can't say that for certain yet. #118 is trying to look town but really says nothing "I did an Iso, see! So what they have 3 posts?" (There's no need to brag about doing an ISO, it just screams of looking for towncred), when you were/are voting me for such. #90 Contradicts #50 about unfair scumtells. You wrap up that quote on #50 with "But it's all cool, no worries" (did the same in #67). This gives me a vibe of not trying to offend anyone. Do you see the contradictions with your case on me and your own play? (Keep in mind I think your whole argument is based one 1-2 posts while I can name multiple where you're doing the same thing as me)

Unvote, Vote:Hezlucky

Here's that post for you(and for Rainbowdash), by the way, in case you forgot it. No need to thank me. Now Address it.

[Rainbowdash]

Notice the lack of redundant "scummy vote is scummy". Straightfoward.

So you are supposed to call somepony out on it WITHOUT a vote to be town and WITH a vote to be scummy?

I've also already noted the fact that Yonzy's post was incredibly scummy. In obvious ways. Incredibly obvious ways, painfully obvious ways. I refuse to buy into a VI or "Derpy Pony" title simply because it's insulting.

He is. I have seen his type enough to know that regardless of everything he is going to come off as Derpy Hooves and get lynched or vig shot in most games. You just can't put much trust in them, much like that one time we sent that one pony that couldn't tell directions to go help the birds migrate, learned that one the hard way. Anyways, he should be replaced since he hasnt even posted for almost five days.

Explain how my vote attempted to create an easy target. If my argument is illogical, then the only easy target that's come of it should be me.

What?

Nevermind.

Here is why you are mafia though: You have done nothing but harp on null tells this game. Despite him simply needed to be replaced, your Yonzy case holds a whole lot more water than the Avas one that you are pushing because its based on what you think the proper reaction to your just vote post was. What if I think that him voting you was the correct thing to have done in that situation, and another pony thinks ignoring it was, and then you think simply commenting on it was and so on. My point is, everypony sees things like that differently, and that is your entire case, theory of YOURS. Yes what are tells are generally just applied theory, but its common concensus theory, this is not.

What this also does has allowed you to essentially ignore the rest of the game. I have no clue where you stand on the whole back and forth between HezLucky and YankCane. I have no clue what you think of HH and the fakeclaim (which was AMAZINGLY stupid, I would expect play like that from Mastin but not Lat). You have just used this whole "incorrect reaction" as a reason to ignore everything else that has occured in this game.

@Yank - Im not voting Hez. He is not obviously town, we can call him neutral, but there is no real point in that lynch happening.

Also not really loving the Yank wagon, but its better then quite a few, almost purely because CA is on it and he is quite strongly town. That vote on Hez from him really doesn't feel like scum either since its a long hard road to take as opposed to where he had been.

[YankCane151]

Can you elaborate/explain this please? Thanks.

Yes I can.

Most people in this game have had a little bit of fun and randomness to your answers, but

YankCane seems to think he'll get town cred

² by answering them completely seriously. There's no attempt to joke around by him,

meaning he likely sees it as a risk.

¹ Furthermore,

his sentence "Regarding the Miller claim" adds nothing substantial to this game,

³ while making it seem like he is doing some early analysis.


Early FOS's: Yank, ConfidAnon

Ok, I can only find 3 posts where you may possibly have "outlined my case" against me. (Oooh, and I get to strikethrough more filler.)

ISO # 5(Cropped): This is his main argument, basically wanting to lynch me (Not just a vote, as he just showed in ISO #16, he wants to

lynch

me.) for not being fun and random, assuming I'm being cautious.

Let's look first at the tinge of doubt/fallacies in this quote. In Superscript 1, we see him only saying it is "likely" that I see it as a risk, yet just two words before, says the word "meaning", implying that he already knows the answer. How can you only be slightly sure(implied by likely) while also telling us all the definition of my actions for me?(using the word meaning, again implying omniscent knowledge of me. AKA: Making something out of nothing.)

Sup 2 is more Omniscentness and again assuming my thoughts here.

Sup 3 is also off. He claims that my use of the phrase "regarding the miller claim" adds nothing substantial to the game, yet he is voting me for that reason. wat. So it's really not substantial, except were he to lynch me, that'd be pretty important to the game, no? It seems he's selective in claiming what's substantial. Also, while that's his opinion, he frames it in a way to sell to the others that he is right and I am DEFINITELY doing this to look town.

EBWOP:

Yes I can. Most people in this game have had a little bit of fun and randomness to your answers, but YankCane seems to think he'll get town cred by answering them completely seriously. There's no attempt to joke around by him, meaning he likely sees it as a risk. Furthermore, his sentence "Regarding the Miller claim" adds nothing substantial to this game, while making it seem like he is doing some early analysis.

Can this point be used against avasthearties who also answered my questions seriously?

No, avasthehearties answered my "WHO WANTS PIE?" question, which satisfies the quota of randomness I'm looking for. He's also not trying at all to be useful.

YankCane is just cautious,

period.

Ok, we've got another tidbit. (He really is laying this out all nice for us, isn't he!

Now you suspect avasthehearties for lurking, but you originally pushed avast into the safer category because he wasn't tyring to be useful. Which one is it?

ISO #14 is the last piece of evidence before #16 we see.

Real scumhunting plus you are going on my original gutread. This is MORE voteworthy.

Unvote, Vote: YankCane

Oh okay. I'm a gutread now. I'm also a lynch target for proof. Makes sense.

I'm going to go back to that #12 and eliminate the filler to show you the contradiction in the case, again.

Y'know what. I really like the HH bandwagon- even better than my tarsonisocelot vote.

Unvote. Vote: Horrifying Hero

My reasons:
-They've stated two suspicions but haven't explained either of them and haven't made any effort to convince others to follow their vote for me.
-They haven't posted a lot recently. This is especially strange considering they were pretty active the day the game started.
-They are a miller. That, itself, isn't suspicious, but a miller's allignment can't be determined via cop investigation. So we determine their allignment based solely on their play during the day. Horrifying Hero, however, is giving us hardly anything to work with. They're playing with their cards too close to their chest. That isn't the way that a miller should be playing this game.


I still suspect tarsonisocelot, but I'm not explaining why until 2-3 more players post in the thread.

So I read the third point and it really hit home.

I did my own ISO of Horrible Hero, who has given us very little in terms of, well, anything. However, the first thing I noticed was that the Mastin hydra is V/LA from July 16 to 22. It's not July 22 yet. How much of this is attributable to that fact? (I am unfamiliar with either hydra head)

¹

Doing a quick meta on lateralus' playstyle yields:
- A quick lookover Newbie 1245 shows that he is more than capable of giving us a decent analysis. Alignment: Town
- Hell, he does it as mafia too. Look at Newbie 970.
(lateralus seems to replace both in and out of a lot of games, so I tried to find some where he was playing throughout. Care to comment on this, lateralus? One somewhat recurring feature is that you give your analysis upon replacing in and then become useless the rest of the game. When, exactly, do you plan on being useful here?)

In conclusion, his meta is frustrating me. I've never seen someone as flaky as him, and I would like to hear what his other head says as well.

EBWOP: He just posted two things. Okay, whatever. I'm still posting the above anyway.

Oooh, Another! Sup 1 on this one, Now he's suddenly concerned about the Miller! What, while also including filler?

Hez doesn't have a legit case against me until he can defend himself for the same thing he's accusing me of.

[HezLucky]

Yank wants some answers, so I will give answers.

He claims that I haven't given my case (I have given my primary reason already), as well as accuses me of not answering questions.

Easiest solution? ISO Yank in his entirity.

--------------------ONE-------------------

1. I like town better because it's like solving a mystery, as scum you generally already know the answer.
2. Questioning, observing reactions, etc.

Regarding the Miller claim, I agree that it's null. It saves a cop investigation but past that it means nothing and we should judge HH accordingly.

Still why I'm voting Yank. Trying way too hard to be useful. (Hell, right now, he's trying to scrape together any case he can on me -- reaching would be an appropriate word here -- just to get me off his back. But I don't do that)

Basically, filler and fluff in a time where you're allowed to fool around (RVS) is a scumtell. Later on in the game, one might just be lazy. But at that junction, nobody expects you to be doing anything, so the only motivation is trying to look town.


----------------------TWO----------------------

Look at Yank's behaviour over the course of the game. He cannot actually respond to any of my points, and is freaking out about that, so he decides that the best defense is a good offense. He is trying to shift the focus from himself to me, simply
because I'm attacking him, in hopes that I will go away.

Furthermore, Yank makes it look like he is scumhunting -- but where has he actually committed to anyone? Besdies me, BECAUSE I'M VOTING FOR HIM. Yank's behaviour is highly self-preservationist. Make yourself look good. Pretend you are scumhunting.
But don't actually commit to anyone being scum unless they attack you. This is not scumhunting. Scumhunting means you have opinions on people OTHER than those who are voting for you.


---------------THREE-------------------

Okay, let's get to the posts he makes in response to me:

Hez, You were after Anon until he finally agreed with you on something. I believe you're letting him direct your vote. Is it possible bussing during RVS then teaming later? Sure, but I can't say that for certain yet. #118 is trying to look town but really says nothing "I did an Iso, see! So what they have 3 posts?" (There's no need to brag about doing an ISO, it just screams of looking for towncred), when you were/are voting me for such. #90 Contradicts #50 about unfair scumtells. You wrap up that quote on #50 with "But it's all cool, no worries" (did the same in #67). This gives me a vibe of not trying to offend anyone. Do you see the contradictions with your case on me and your own play? (Keep in mind I think your whole argument is based one 1-2 posts while I can name multiple where you're doing the same thing as me)

Unvote, Vote:Hezlucky

He's directing my vote? I had two suspects, I liked one's response and now I'm testing the other (that's you, by the way). I don't like your response at all.

#118 - Yes, I did an ISO. Yes, I found very little. Would you like me not to post? I was actually contemplating voting the mastin/lateralus hydra before the set of ISOs I did, and I stumbled upon a relevant point (one I was hoping I could have gotten a response to -- but I don't seem to have. lateralus: why do you replace in and out of so many games?)

But your number system is annoying, because now I actually have to look at my own ISO:

Okay, looked at it. Your points are pathetic. You've basically decided ahead of time that I'm scum, and tried to fit the evidence to match your case. I don't know how familiar you are with the game of Mafia, but you can make a reasonable case on ANYONE that isn't obvtown in any game at any time. Games aren't won by cases. They are won by looking for intentions. I believe when you were writing the above post, you were specifically looking for evidence and things you could accuse me of doing rather than objectively evaluating my posts. This makes you either vengeful town, or scum that needs to hang. Seeing as I've already got a scumread on you, I know which one I'll be going with.


BUT I do understand the gist of your argument: You claim that I am voting you for a few small points, that also apply to me. If you think my posts are filler, consider the following similarities between me and you:


HOW YANKCANE AND I ARE SIMILAR (aka. why yankcane thinks I'm voting for him because of things I have also done)

- we both ask questions to others to help us scumhunt and determine alignment
- YankCane thinks we both "are trying to appear pro-town and not offend anyone"

HOW YANKCANE AND I ARE DIFFERENT (aka. the truth about the second point)

- First of all, I could care less whether or not I offend anyone. I've called several people out this game already, a point which you seem to have conveniently forgotten. The second part of your argument is now moot.

- More importantly, the argument that "he's so town he's scum" is a ridiculous one. You can make that argument about anyone who hasn't committed any sort of scumtell. Speaking of fallacious arguments, that's one right there. The reason I am voting for you is, I'll repeat, YOU WERE TRYING TO LOOK PROTOWN DURING A PORTION OF THE GAME WHERE NOBODY EXPECTS YOU TO BE USEFUL. You were posting fluff (ie. things that look like they are game-related, but really say nothing) during a moment where a lot of randomness was happening.

- Oh, and your response to me. You have no case whatsoever, yet you insist that you do and cry that "OMG HEZ IS NOT RESPONDING TO MY POSTS HE MUST BE SCUM". Basically, I wouldn't be holding any of this against you except for the fact that you are voting for me. If you said "Hey Hez, you've done the exact same things, let me list them ALL out for you" and you weren't voting for me, I would think you were trying to prove a point. Yet since you are voting for me, you are instead trying to manipulate the evidence in order to form a case on me. You aren't trying to make a point anymore, you are trying to form a counterwagon. Why should I let your buddies hide while you do the talking? It's very obvious from the way your posts are constructed that you decided AHEAD of time that you wanted to attack someone that was attacking you, and since a) I provided less evidence in my votepost and (b) I had no one suspecting me, meaning that your vote would look more like actual scumhunting, you chose me.

- Finally, if you are town (OH MY GOD WHAT? ... yeah, I'm wrong sometimes. Bite me.), Read Open 302. Not the whole thing. Focus on Me and MagnaofIllusion. Note that our argument over-took the entire game in the later days, and eventually lead to a lynch on a townie and a near guaranteed scum victory. If you continue to attack me, please argue better, because I am quite vengeful and WILL get you lynched if I don't believe you are legitimate. At the moment, I don't think your arguments are (your providing evidence to fit your hypothesis, and not the other way around - I didn't think you were scum until I READ that post of yours. You've essentially made up a case on me and looked for evidence to fit your facts. This is a mafia tactic, not a town one. Vote stands.)




I want to hear from OTHERS on this. I don't really care for having a back and forth dialogue with scum. Especially if it allows Yank's buddies to hide among the carnage.

[HezLucky]

Can you elaborate/explain this please? Thanks.

Yes I can.

Most people in this game have had a little bit of fun and randomness to your answers, but

YankCane seems to think he'll get town cred

² by answering them completely seriously. There's no attempt to joke around by him,

meaning he likely sees it as a risk.

¹ Furthermore,

his sentence "Regarding the Miller claim" adds nothing substantial to this game,

³ while making it seem like he is doing some early analysis.


Early FOS's: Yank, ConfidAnon

Ok, I can only find 3 posts where you may possibly have "outlined my case" against me. (Oooh, and I get to strikethrough more filler.)

ISO # 5(Cropped): This is his main argument, basically wanting to lynch me (Not just a vote, as he just showed in ISO #16, he wants to

lynch

me.) for not being fun and random, assuming I'm being cautious.

Let's look first at the tinge of doubt/fallacies in this quote. In Superscript 1, we see him only saying it is "likely" that I see it as a risk, yet just two words before, says the word "meaning", implying that he already knows the answer. How can you only be slightly sure(implied by likely) while also telling us all the definition of my actions for me?(using the word meaning, again implying omniscent knowledge of me. AKA: Making something out of nothing.)

Really? semantics? You fail. Completely and utterly fail.

This is so much stretching its not even funny. You can ignore the last point in my above post.

Confirm Vote: YankCane

[Kid Know Nothing]

Notice the lack of redundant "scummy vote is scummy". Straightfoward.

So you are supposed to call somepony out on it WITHOUT a vote to be town and WITH a vote to be scummy?

Yes. When they don't vote for 'lolpressure'. In your opinion, are votes without explanations scummy? Do they have any purpose?

Yonzy was at one vote before I voted him, hardly under any pressure. Not even close to being threatened by a lynch. I was looking for a few reactions to the vote; one being someone calling me out on a possible OMGUS and so on. Asking why I voted Yonzy is not why I have a problem with Avas. It's just the way he went about it. A vote with "suspicious thing is suspicious" does very little to really further hunting. What was suspicious about it? Was the vote opportunistic? No. If I was looking for an easy wagon, CA would have been a better choice. He was already getting suspicion thrown at him. Why go after someone who had an FoS and people were largely ignoring? No benefit. Was the vote an OMGUS? No one bothered to ask.

I've also already noted the fact that Yonzy's post was incredibly scummy. In obvious ways. Incredibly obvious ways, painfully obvious ways. I refuse to buy into a VI or "Derpy Pony" title simply because it's insulting.

He is. I have seen his type enough to know that regardless of everything he is going to come off as Derpy Hooves and get lynched or vig shot in most games. You just can't put much trust in them, much like that one time we sent that one pony that couldn't tell directions to go help the birds migrate, learned that one the hard way. Anyways, he should be replaced since he hasnt even posted for almost five days.

This is a pointless tangent. Best if we just drop it now, doesn't further hunting. Just a difference in opinion. Just letting it be known I won't write someone off for being a "VI". Even a "VI" can be scum.

Explain how my vote attempted to create an easy target. If my argument is illogical, then the only easy target that's come of it should be me.

What?

Nevermind.

Here is why you are mafia though: You have done nothing but harp on null tells this game. Despite him simply needed to be replaced, your Yonzy case holds a whole lot more water than the Avas one that you are pushing because its based on what you think the proper reaction to your just vote post was. What if I think that him voting you was the correct thing to have done in that situation, and another pony thinks ignoring it was, and then you think simply commenting on it was and so on. My point is, everypony sees things like that differently, and that is your entire case, theory of YOURS. Yes what are tells are generally just applied theory, but its common concensus theory, this is not.

What this also does has allowed you to essentially ignore the rest of the game. I have no clue where you stand on the whole back and forth between HezLucky and YankCane. I have no clue what you think of HH and the fakeclaim (which was AMAZINGLY stupid, I would expect play like that from Mastin but not Lat). You have just used this whole "incorrect reaction" as a reason to ignore everything else that has occured in this game.

I haven't been ignoring it. Just because I don't comment on something does not mean I am ignoring it. This question also wasn't meant for you.

I've seen a similar fake-claim before. In fake, it was the first game I played with CA. Hoopla claimed PGO to a similar effect. It didn't phase me. Miller is a safer claim and there are some differences, but the principle remains roughly the same.

CA is town. You are most likely town. Yonzy needs to be replaced or post. Avas is borderline scum. Wicked is borderline town. HH is barely town, but that's based on my experience with the gambit. I'd like to see the other half of the hydra post more now that he/she is back.

[Horrifying Hero]

Actually, the Mastin half of us has been doing most of our posting, due to the Lat half of us being busy elsewhere--don't worry; that will change. Wall should be incoming.

[YankCane151]

Ok class, before I get into the contradictions (again!), let me basically review Hez's case here.

A: Trying to hard to be useful. (Or as he put it into ISO #3, Trying to look pro-town.) I'll mark these contradictions with ₁ Subscripts.

B: I'm omgus-ing him by attacking. Note that he doesn't try to acknowledge the truth in my points (just dismisses them in hopes they'll go away) and continues to attack me for the same thing. I'll mark these with ¹ Superscripts.

C: I am twisting his words/Making something out of nothing. I'll mark these with

Italics.

Yank wants some answers, so I will give answers.

He claims that I haven't given my case (I have given my primary reason already), as well as accuses me of not answering questions.

Easiest solution? ISO Yank in his entirity.

--------------------ONE-------------------

1. I like town better because it's like solving a mystery, as scum you generally already know the answer.
2. Questioning, observing reactions, etc.

Regarding the Miller claim, I agree that it's null. It saves a cop investigation but past that it means nothing and we should judge HH accordingly.

Still why I'm voting Yank.

Trying way too hard to be useful. (Hell, right now, he's trying to scrape together any case he can on me -- reaching would be an appropriate word here -- just to get me off his back. But I don't do that)

¹

Basically, filler and fluff in a time where you're allowed to fool around (RVS) is a scumtell. Later on in the game, one might just be lazy. But at that junction, nobody expects you to be doing anything, so the only motivation is trying to look town.


----------------------TWO----------------------

Look at Yank's behaviour over the course of the game.

He cannot actually respond to any of my points, and is freaking out about that, so he decides that the best defense is a good offense.

He is trying to shift the focus from himself to me, simply
because I'm attacking him, in hopes that I will go away.^{2 HUGE}

Furthermore, Yank makes it look like he is scumhunting -- but where has he actually committed to anyone?^{3 Lol votehopping}

Besdies me, BECAUSE I'M VOTING FOR HIM. Yank's behaviour is highly self-preservationist. Make yourself look good. Pretend you are scumhunting.

But don't actually commit to anyone being scum unless they attack you. This is not scumhunting.

Scumhunting means you have opinions on people OTHER than those who are voting for you.

---------------THREE-------------------

Okay, let's get to the posts he makes in response to me:

Hez, You were after Anon until he finally agreed with you on something. I believe you're letting him direct your vote. Is it possible bussing during RVS then teaming later? Sure, but I can't say that for certain yet. #118 is trying to look town but really says nothing "I did an Iso, see! So what they have 3 posts?" (There's no need to brag about doing an ISO, it just screams of looking for towncred), when you were/are voting me for such. #90 Contradicts #50 about unfair scumtells. You wrap up that quote on #50 with "But it's all cool, no worries" (did the same in #67). This gives me a vibe of not trying to offend anyone. Do you see the contradictions with your case on me and your own play? (Keep in mind I think your whole argument is based one 1-2 posts while I can name multiple where you're doing the same thing as me)

Unvote, Vote:Hezlucky

He's directing my vote? I had two suspects, I liked one's response and now I'm testing the other (that's you, by the way). I don't like your response at all.

#118 - Yes, I did an ISO. Yes, I found very little. Would you like me not to post? I was actually contemplating voting the mastin/lateralus hydra before the set of ISOs I did, and I stumbled upon a relevant point (one I was hoping I could have gotten a response to -- but I don't seem to have. lateralus: why do you replace in and out of so many games?)

But your number system is annoying, because now I actually have to look at my own ISO:

Okay, looked at it. Your points are pathetic. You've basically decided ahead of time that I'm scum, and tried to fit the evidence to match your case.

[He's done the exact same except with less posts] I don't know how familiar you are with the game of Mafia, but you can make a reasonable case on ANYONE that isn't obvtown in any game at any time. Games aren't won by cases. They are won by looking for intentions. _{I believe when you were writing the above post, you were specifically looking for evidence} [So wait, now I shouldn't look for evidence?] and things you could accuse me of doing rather than objectively evaluating my posts.

This makes you either vengeful town, or scum that needs to hang.

Seeing as I've already got a scumread on you, I know which one I'll be going with.⁴


BUT I do understand the gist of your argument: You claim that I am voting you for a few small points, that also apply to me. If you think my posts are filler, consider the following similarities between me and you:


HOW YANKCANE AND I ARE SIMILAR (aka. why yankcane thinks I'm voting for him because of things I have also done)

- we both ask questions to others to help us scumhunt and determine alignment
- YankCane thinks we both "are trying to appear pro-town and not offend anyone" [I don't think I'm doing so, because I'm not. I'm comparing the fallacy of your argument by the fact that you yourself are doing such.]

HOW YANKCANE AND I ARE DIFFERENT (aka. the truth about the second point)

- First of all, I could care less whether or not I offend anyone. I've called several people out this game already, a point which you seem to have conveniently forgotten. The second part of your argument is now moot.₂ [Easy enough cop-out here.]

-

More importantly, the argument that "he's so town he's scum" is a ridiculous one.

[Never said this] You can make that argument about anyone who hasn't committed any sort of scumtell.

Speaking of fallacious arguments, that's one right there.

The reason I am voting for you is, I'll repeat, YOU WERE TRYING TO LOOK PROTOWN DURING A PORTION OF THE GAME WHERE NOBODY EXPECTS YOU TO BE USEFUL.

You were posting fluff (ie. things that look like they are game-related, but really say nothing)

during a moment where a lot of randomness was happening.

-

Oh, and your response to me. You have no case whatsoever, yet you insist that you do and cry that "OMG HEZ IS NOT RESPONDING TO MY POSTS HE MUST BE SCUM".

⁶ [More like your case of me]

Basically, I wouldn't be holding any of this against you except for the fact that you are voting for me.

[LOL Who is OMGUS-ing now?]

If you said "Hey Hez, you've done the exact same things, let me list them ALL out for you" and you weren't voting for me, I would think you were trying to prove a point.

[Contradiction, obviously YOU are the one who only cares when someone is voting for them.]

Yet since you are voting for me, you are instead trying to manipulate the evidence in order to form a case on me.

[No.]

You aren't trying to make a point anymore, you are trying to form a counterwagon.

[Counter wagon to what? Your vote and CA's?] Why should I let your buddies hide while you do the talking?

It's very obvious from the way your posts are constructed that you decided AHEAD of time that you wanted to attack someone that was attacking you, and since a) I provided less evidence in my votepost and (b) I had no one suspecting me, meaning that your vote would look more like actual scumhunting, you chose me.

³ [A)there was enough evidence to begin questioning you and B) The points are valid whether there's 1 or 9 people questioning you.]

- Finally, if you are town (OH MY GOD WHAT? ... yeah, I'm wrong sometimes. Bite me.), Read Open 302. Not the whole thing. Focus on Me and MagnaofIllusion. Note that our argument over-took the entire game in the later days, and eventually lead to a lynch on a townie and a near guaranteed scum victory. If you continue to attack me, please argue better, because I am quite vengeful and WILL get you lynched if I don't believe you are legitimate. At the moment, I don't think your arguments are (your providing evidence to fit your hypothesis, and not the other way around - I didn't think you were scum until I READ that post of yours. You've essentially made up a case on me and looked for evidence to fit your facts. This is a mafia tactic, not a town one. Vote stands.)

[Whole paragraph=Empty Threat and an ATE]


I want to hear from OTHERS on this. I don't really care for having a back and forth dialogue with scum. Especially if it allows Yank's buddies to hide among the carnage.[Double this, but don't back out of an attack against you because you look more guilty.]

Each post you make sends you closer to the noose. If you want to build up a legitimate case to throw at me, I'll be all for defending it. But if you're going to accuse me of the same things you're doing (building cases out of nothing, accusing of looking pro-town, etc. Remember your whole reason is based off of 1 post while mine is building post by post), then you should just lynch yourself.

Your other post calls out me calling out semantics, and you call me out for the same thing (Especially regarding the first post, you hit me for using the phrase "Regarding the Miller claim.") Get your own case, stop trying to scumhunt yourself and put it on someone else.

[YankCane151]

Couple of HTML errors in there ^ Also forgot to mention that the [] brackets include my commentary.

[Rainbowdash]

So you are supposed to call somepony out on it WITHOUT a vote to be town and WITH a vote to be scummy?

Yes. When they don't vote for 'lolpressure'. In your opinion, are votes without explanations scummy? Do they have any purpose?

They have purpose if utilized corretly, but I really don't think this falls under that category since from what you are trying to argue. Your first vote wasn't scummy at all either, it wasnt a good time and place for it, but that wasnt something that caused any concern, it was the follow up of it.

Yonzy was at one vote before I voted him, hardly under any pressure. Not even close to being threatened by a lynch. I was looking for a few reactions to the vote; one being someone calling me out on a possible OMGUS and so on.

...

What are the town reactions? The scum reactions? Remember what I said about how everpony is different in their reactions and mindset? I sincerly doubt that this will manage to catch scum at a greater rate then scum exist in the game.

Asking why I voted Yonzy is not why I have a problem with Avas. It's just the way he went about it. A vote with "suspicious thing is suspicious" does very little to really further hunting. What was suspicious about it? Was the vote opportunistic? No.

Pot, kettle.

What is the difference between you voting Yonzy without any explaination about why he is scummy, and then Avas voting you without any explaination as to why you are scummy?

If I was looking for an easy wagon, CA would have been a better choice. He was already getting suspicion thrown at him. Why go after someone who had an FoS and people were largely ignoring? No benefit. Was the vote an OMGUS? No one bothered to ask.

*twitch*

Is this really one of those "I wouldnt have done this if I was scum" comments?

@Hez/Yank - Ok, stop arguing now. Everpony gets the points and can decide for ourselves. Weigh in on other things.

[Amor]

Votecount

Kid Know Nothing - 5 (Yonzy, avasthearties, bobsnox, el simo, Rainbowdash)

Horrifying Hero - 2 (Lobster Catapult, Wickedestjr)
YankCane151 - 2 (ConfidAnon, HezLucky)
HezLucky - 1 (YankCane151)
Wickedestjr - 1 (Horrifying Hero)
el simo - 1 (tarsonisocelot)
avasthearties - 1 (Kid Know Nothing)

Yonzy has requested a replacement. LobsterCatapult has been prodded.

Deadline is June 30 at midnight EST.

[Amor]

Vifam replaces Yonzy, effective immediately.

[Vifam]

Sup

[Vifam]

Who should I vote?