TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[David Xanatos]

Zel1nk, in the absence of.. well, it appears pretty much everyone advocating my lynch, can you tell me exactly what it is that's apparently so "scummy" about me that I haven't addressed?

At this point I frankly feel like I'm hitting my head off a brick wall. Misquoting and ignoring context seems abound..

[Junpei]

Well I can just say it. I did, too. It was very easy.

There's a pretty strong case against you, too, but most people are ignoring it because you claimed tracker. What's your point?

Are you saying I haven't explained why I think Zinger is town? Or are you asking me to explain the other two?

I'm more interested in why people

aren't

reading them as town. DavidX votes I could maybe understand, but Silver hasn't really done much to warrant the votes IMO. I've played with the cj head of silver a few times, and he has a tendency to make really scummy posts, regardless of alignment. The silver head, on the other hand, reads pretty strongly as town.

Are you seriously playing the stupid card?

My case against me consists of Vifam's idiocy and a BW on him. Yes I claimed tracker (a role by the way that doesn't not make sense with my previous actions, unlike Zinger), and tracker is very confirmable as the days go on (unlike what Zinger claimed). Your explanation for why Zinger is town is basically this. "HE WOULDNT DO DAT AS SCUM OR THIRD PARTY I KNO AND HE WOULD DO THAT CUS HE'S DUMB AS FUCK AND TOWN". And that argument isn't convincing. Stop acting like you don't know why people are voting him, because if that's honest then it shows that you aren't really reading the thread. I can't think of many reasons why you would pretend to read the thread when you aren't.

[ZeL1nK]

@davidx

Well, I don't actually agree with the points raised against you, but you make a lot of comments that are just bad in general.

For example, off the top of my head, one of the things the bugs me about you is your insistence that MoI reveals the identities of the neighbours. I also recall there being a few inconsistencies in things you've said. And you post a lot more IIoA/defending yourself than actually scum hunting.

Like I could go into more detail if I went through your ISO and picked out everything that could be called "scummy" in some way, but that's a frivolous exercise because I think you're town.


@junpei,

If I hadn't seen a game of yours in which you've played like this as town, I'd assume you're scum, independent of Vifam's idiocy. Your push on Zinger looks really, really scummy and your lack of scum hunting in general while pushing Zinger makes it worse.

Every post you've made is Zinger this, Zinger that. What are you going to do if Zinger is town?

[Junpei]

@junpei,

If I hadn't seen a game of yours in which you've played like this as town, I'd assume you're scum, independent of Vifam's idiocy. Your push on Zinger looks really, really scummy and your lack of scum hunting in general while pushing Zinger makes it worse.

Every post you've made is Zinger this, Zinger that. What are you going to do if Zinger is town?

If Zinger is town then I'll apply what I've learned from this day while examining others to find a different scum. I don't always tunnel people, but Zinger is way too obvious and I can't let it pass.

I have been scumhunting, I take very nice notes. Also my push on Zinger has logic and reasoning making it not so scummy as you assume. Finally ever post I've made has not been about Zinger.

So basically your whole post regarding me is bs.

[ZeL1nK]

OK.

So let's assume you have actually been hunting scum.

What are your reads?

Who's scum after a Zinger town flip?

[David Xanatos]

Zel1nk > Actually, I asked for the identities once. I then asked for the information THEY gave HIM. That gives town at least something to work with if something doesn't add up...

And I actually have a notepad document of thoughts.. sec while I load it up.

[David Xanatos]

This is the latest one.

Just something I've been writing up as time passes.. slightly disjointed but they're my thoughts on each person. Seems to be tunnelling rather heavily on chkballin, and I'm not quite sure why..

Andrew > You've been rather inactive.. I don't see any solid reads from him, promised a post and hasn't yet delivered. Would like to see more.. have him tell us his current reads.

Chevre > Though you have been prodding around, and seem to be gathering information, I'd like to know what you're picking up. You seem fairly on-the-ball, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the playing field.

chkballin > Still waiting on the promised second post, but tunnelling on me a little. I'll respond to the post when it comes, but the posts from Ballin in particular draw my eye as being very Townie. Regardless of his current situation with me, I'm inclined to label him Town. Not sure how it'll play out, but it's a mixture of gut and Ballin.

Easjo > Appears to have buggered off.

Izak > Has gone dark since Wednesday, when he tried to handwave himself as making an "obvious joke" about Jesters while attacking Junpei. Scummy as hell, would probably have been tempered if he had been around since then.. very dodgy at the moment though. Doesn't help that I see a lot of words and little to no stances actually taken, beyond his stance on Zinger, and a minor note about Chevre not being Scummy. Really want to see his list of Scum reads...

Jason > SCUM! >.>

Junpei > Came into the game at a disadvantage, has since contributed massively to the Town efforts, claimed Tracker.. I'd put money on him being Town frankly. Eloquent and intelligent, which aids massively when he's explaining his thoughts. Also entertaining.

Killerjester > Makes some very good points.. especially on Izak, calls Leonshade on his fence-sitting and counter-intuitive behaviour. Leaning Town, but I confess I haven't really paid much attention to Killerjester so far, and I lack the time to do an in-depth analysis right now.

Leonshade > Another one I haven't been paying particular attention to lately, but I did have some notes from earlier that simply read "lots of words, little content". Another one I'll need to do a detailed analysis of.

MoI > Leant Town on him to begin with, but his persistent tunneling and misquoting of my posts, and attempting to twist the context of said posts has dragged me back to neutral on him. Loathe to go into further detail while I await further response, but he's V/LA, so that's on the back-burner for now.

Marco > Balanced viewpoint to the point of fence-sitting, but admits to a little OMGUSing.. was prodded I believe, would love to see his thoughts after he's caught up.

Meran > Very protective of Zinger, accepts Zel1nk's claim without any hesitation whatsoever.. appears quite dodgy in that respect, but appears to be gather a decent whack of information. His reads are a little hard to follow at times, but for the most part appears sound. Inclined to lean town for now.

Nero > Hard to understand at times, quite tunnelley on Silver, but did draw my attention to the fact Silver actually justified his Vifam vote as "because it was a viable lynch".. he gets a little Town credit for that, but I'm still mostly neutral.

Oversoul > Inactive with a wall.. considering replacing out, can't really say one way or the other, but I would like his reads before he goes, if he chooses to.

Pappums > Makes a decent Zinger case, admittedly backed by Meta.. I don't buy the "survival = scum" vibe he seems to give out though. Would quite like an expanded set of reads from him.

Peregrine > Not really much to go on.. makes a few good points, but overall hasn't really been around enough for me to get a read on.

Pine > Simply hasn't been here.. admits he's only here not to tarnish his record.. frankly I can't even give a vague comment, as he literally has not said one word about the actual state of the game..

Pinky > Has a rather annoying habit of using spoiler tags, but beyond that, gives me a Town vibe.

Rodion > Leaning Town, but for the most part haven't been following him much. What I have noted in my observations is that he's intelligent and mostly neutral, willing to give both sides a fair hearing, which can only really be a benefit. Wouldn't mind seeing his list of scum-reads personally.

Silver > Massive OMGUS vote on Nero, despite apparently not even having him in his top 5 Scum reads.. dodgy. Will be keeping an eye on.

ThAdmiral > Reading mostly Town, but in honesty don't like the way he picked up MoI's misquoted post and ran with it without bothering to check it in the slightest.. waiting on him to respond though, so not wanting to jump to conclusions.

ThreeisFrench > Not sure what to make of this.. is active lurking, short posts, little content, but not sure if that's a buildup to a wall or just trying to float under the radar..

Vezok > Admits to buddying to the "best" player in games, appears to have rather strange reasoning (Lurker A is town because he lurked before, Lurker B is scum because he didn't).. very, very short posts, and I honestly don't recall ever seen reads from him..

Vollkan > Reads as Town to me, but tunnels rather heavily on Zinger.. I can see the logic and reasoning behind it, but I get the impression he may be getting a little blinkered. This is another one who I'd love to see his current reads.

Zel1nk > I cannot get my head around the Vig claim so soon.. intelligent and has made some rather compelling points, but the Vig claim is sitting rather unevenly in the back of my mind.. would really like to know why he claimed so soon..

Zinger > Already voiced my opinions on him.. could call him everything under the sun but I'm going to take a cooling off period, spend some time looking at those I haven't analysed properly yet. I still have about 70-75% confidence in him being either hostile third party or Scum though..

[David Xanatos]

Andrew > You've been rather inactive.. I don't see any solid reads from him, promised a post and hasn't yet delivered. Would like to see more.. have him tell us his current reads. Seems to be tunnelling rather heavily on chkballin, and I'm not quite sure why..

Had an error moving it across. Evidently dragged that last sentence in Andrew's section to the opening statement there. >_<

[ZeL1nK]

hm.

I just realised I have town reads on everyone >= 29 posts at this point. I have some town reads among the players with less than 29, but everyone over 29 is a town read. Either I'm reading this game wrong or scum is lurking.

[Junpei]

ThreeIsFrench is definitely up there for the reasons I've stated before. And it's even worse now that he hasn't posted.

ZeL1nK is scummy because he is an anonymous Hydra who makes a lot of incoherent reads and seems to have a goal in mind when saying things. This goal seems to be more personal-driven than collective-driven.

Meran is now towny for posting more and proving some existence the past 20 pages or so. I like his contributions a lot and it is something to look forward to if he survives.

Vezok is scummy because she BW'd on both Vifam and Zinger without giving any concrete reasoning to add. This wouldn't be as bad if the rest of her posts weren't of little content.

Zinger is very scummy, for reasons stated.

Can't really read Pine, not enough there.

Oversoul I actually like. I thought I wouldn't based on his early play but his big post on reads makes sense, and I can understand his lack of content as he is in a bunch of other games. So far he seems honest while at the same time scumhunting.

Andrew94 is scummy because his posts are incoherent. I'm sorry but I don't understand you most of the time. Can anyone translate his posts for me?

Easjo is not even part of this game, practically getting replaced, null.

MagnaOfIllusion is town because he is giving a strong effort to scumhunt despite being V/LA on weekends. I haven't investigated him a lot though, I just looked at his posts as good scumhunting attempts and figured he was good for d1 town.

PeregrineV asks a lot of questions 1 on 1 without actually giving results of his 'scumhunting' and not being relevant through the whole day. I don't like it, so he is scummy.

Pappums Leather Jacket seems like scum to me too because he is always seeming like his posts are too calculated and almost forced in some instances. They're too prepared and scum like to do that to make sure they didn't mess up or hint anything.

chkballin is town for a lot of scumhunting and giving his reads, as well as being an open hydra.

crappy isn't relevant at all, null. But.. PvT slate is there with a few posts, and they are pretty much all during RQS, he does express dislike for the Vifam wagon though. Not sure what to make of it.

marco1610 is scummy for posts that seem to be anti-sheepBW while not providing much content (hello ZeL1nK)

David Xantos is town for dismantling arguments he is in and providing strong logic and reasoning. I also don't like how stringy cases are made against him.

vollkan is town due to his system of points that will be very easy to see if he's abusing. It's a clear tunnel into his brain and that is something scum wouldn't give for free like that, if he's scum it'll be easy to tell later in the game.

LeonShade is scummy for defending himself fervently while not really contributing to topics of conversation not involving himself. Even if we do say that his logic on his counter-arguments are clear.

ThAdmiral is town, once again I don't have a lot on him because I haven't been paying close attention to him. However I like how he says Zinger is at L-2 for us and that he is at the very least trying to spark scumhunting conversation.

Silverbullet999 is scummy for several inconsistencies which still haven't be sorted out and his tunneling without using anymore logic.

killerjester is town because he was very open with his thoughts and was willing to accept he was wrong. That combined with a display of ability to a decent degree makes me think he's genuine.

Nero Cain is town for his voting patterns while having some reasoning to back it up that I can accept.

Pinky and the Brain is town because he puts in an enormous amount of effort that is backed with logic that doesn't seem forced. His voting is really back and forth but as long as I can see why he did it and it makes sense I'm okay.

izakthegoomba is scum for his hardcore BWing on the Vifam and Zinger wagons. Although I like his other conversation overall.

Chevre I really haven't analyzed yet. I know this is my third person I haven't analyzed at all but It's day 1 and pretty early at that. Wasn't expecting to have to paraphrase everything this early.

Rodion seems like the towny who doesn't really know what he's doing, probably the current VI. I don't like a lot of his logic.


There you go, mostly paraphrased through my notes and some if it was stuff I wrote up just now without much use of my notes. Enjoy your 26 or so basic reads.


In a Zinger town flip I'd say that you're scum for defending him so hard. There is the scum that defends his partner in a way that seems like scum wouldn't possibly do it, and there's the scum that goes with the BW. You could very well be the former, trying to protect us against a lynch you know is town. Although I am not going to stand by that read a month from now unless time permits.

[Junpei]

Also, to reiterate the question:

Zinger, why did you lie and say that you use this site as your testing ground to do things that you wouldn't do on other sites, when other games prove that that is not the case? What was the purpose that that lie?

[Pinky and the Brain]

Not my fault that Hoppster likes spoiler tags:U.

I feel like this day is stagnating. Let's lynch Zinger and get it over with.

-diddin

[Pinky and the Brain]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zinger

I prefer izak, but he's V/LA, and eh.


Re-reading DavidX now, as a lot of the whole DavidX back-and-forths have gone over my head a bit.

~ Hoppster

[killerjester]

I'm due for a heavy re-read as well. My opinion still holds that we should lynch either Zinger or izak today. If my opinion changes strongly or I find something interesting, I'll be sure to bring it up. If anyone's truly waiting on my every whim and word, then I'll let you know you can expect something from me tomorrow.

[Hoppster]

Missed something from before, so I've spoilered it.

Spoiler: Meransiel

That's down to fucking difference in opinion (or possibly mis-remembering), not lying.

As a side point or a passing reference, maybe. But when you use forged meta to make someone look suspicious, it's not

fucking

difference in opinion. Nor misremembering. It's just that - using forged meta to make someone look suspicious.

Merans, can you post examples of you sitting out Day 1? Cause you diddin't do it in Super Hero Revolution OR SEMG, both of which are Larges I've played with you in.

Rodion: Yeah, Lyncher seems fairly rare on this site.

-diddin

1. Read post which is apparently forged meta.
2. Realise it's a side point/passing reference.
3. Read own post.
4. ???
5. PROFIT!!!

The point I was making wrt Zinger-Chevre was a possible scum-slip from Zinger (obviously I was trying to approach it subtly) - in hind-sight, pappums' interpretation of a town-slip is more logical.

How the hell is my izak vote 'lazy' when I made a case?

I understand the point you were trying to make. I didn't disprove it or anything, that's not the way relational tells work.
Your vote on izak IS lazy because:
1. izak gives enough material to make a case on anyway
2. izak does not defend himself properly

1. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. What.
   I made the case because I thought he was scummy - I'm sorry, are you expecting me to make cases on people I don't think are scummy?
2. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. What.
   I don't recall being able to see into the future to realise that he wouldn't defend himself properly.

Back on topic to MoI vs DavidX:

I'm not going to unvote Zinger yet because as a player, he's openly lied to town, and in doing so, assuming he is telling the truth (which I still have doubts on)has revealed a Town power role with little to no reason.

So the best solution you can come up with as punishment for early revealing a Town Powerrole (if he is Town) is to lynch that player?

That’s scumtastic reasoning David.

... I'm lost already.

• David
  - I don't care what you say later, what exactly are you saying
  here
  ? You think he's foolish town? You think he's scum lying to us?
• David
  - Is your reason provided
  here
  for keeping your vote on Zinger that he has lied or that he has revealed a PR with little reason?
• Magna
  - You seem to imply that there are better solutions for "punishment for early revealing a Town Powerrole", and that David's paticular solution is scummy. Am I interpreting this correctly?

And then regarding the timestamps and the alleged 'dodging'. I checked myself - what they're saying matches up.

David is right that MoI posted elsewhere, but MoI is right that it's not scummy in the faintest.


These posts are a pig to go through. I'll try again tomorrow evening.

Moving onto other stuff:


It looks like people (Chevre, DavidX, Junpei) are grossly overreacting from silver's list. Although perhaps it wasn't set out as clearly as it could be, it seems perfectly reasonable and natural to do what he did.

vollkan

: How long have you been using your points system now?

I ask this because whilst going through your ISO, I noticed at the point which you switch from voting Leonshade (on 64 points) to Zinger (who was at 50 points) - but you didn't award Zinger any points, so using your points system you would still be voting Leonshade...

It also worries me that since your post here, (ignoring the ambiguous Zinger case) you've only seen two scummy things (ie. things fit to award points for - both from DavidX). You awarded over 60 points in your catch up for the first 290 posts - yet we're approaching post 1000 and you've awarded a grand total of an extra 10 points in that time. That doesn't seem right...

~ Hoppster

[Rodion]

Rodion your post made me rage pretty hard, you just don't get it. I'll try to go slowly to compensate for your lack of understanding.

1) So why the fuck would he think that we'd let him live? "HEY GUYS I AM A ROLEBLOCKER I AM NOT ALIGNED AS TOWN. I WILL ROLEBLOCK WHOEVER THE FUCK I WANT AND THEY ARE ROLEBLOCKED FOREVERRRRR". To which we would respond, what? "Oh, well, that's safe, okay just do whatever you want man". Basic problem solving is hard I know. Besides, JK is not a role that is something we'd rather live than tracker or cop, so why would he try to raise the odds of those deaths by lower his death?

2) Meran and him were arguing over pointless points. I'm ignoring you on this point as there is no reason to persuade you.

3) Wait.. he can... he can block scum? Does.. does this mean that he can block town too!? Yep. And he has no reason to try to differentiate between the two, he is anti-town.

4) There was no reason to defend himself on a point that doesn't even incriminate him.

5) Don't say what I'm saying is bullshit when you obviously have no understanding of the claim, like seriously that's annoying.

6) There is no way in hell that you could argue that there are or aren't mafia jailkeepers in this setup. There's just no fucking way at this point in the game that you could convince anyone of either side because it is possible, but there's no way of knowing if it is probable.

7)>poor logic >false arguments. Sounds like something that you're doing, perhaps trying to form an identity that you're protecting Zinger?

1 - His original JK claim has the possibility of allowing him to live a lot. Why?
a) Town could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a scum player would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a town PR (lynch avoided).
b) Mafia could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a town PR would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a scumbuddy (NK avoided).

I said it twice and I'll say it a third time. I don't think his play was good if he really is a town JK, but you

CANNOT

say his strategy makes

ZERO SENSE.

3 - You're wrong. Period. That is the definition of a double-edged sword, not necessarily "pro", not necessarily "anti".

4 - Wrong again. He was being accused.

#753 - Junpei basically says he's anti-town because he is a roleblocker
#783 - Meransiel said his JK claim is opportunistically scummy

You think he is not entitled to a defense?

5 - I think I understood the claim better than you did.

6 - You are absolutely correct here. Obviously, that does not mean I'm wrong, since your "6" does not go against anything I said.

7 - Oh my god. You suck.

[Zinger2099]

Also, to reiterate the question:

Zinger, why did you lie and say that you use this site as your testing ground to do things that you wouldn't do on other sites, when other games prove that that is not the case? What was the purpose that that lie?

It is true that I use this site as a testing grounds to learn more about the game and become better at it.

That doesn't mean I would simply do random crap to throw games for no reason. What could I possibly learn from that?

No, I still try to win. But there's always exceptions to every rule (for example, never lie as town), and here on this site I try to find that exception (to better understand the rule). That doesn't mean I just plan to throw games with no regard for my win-con or my team. You misinterpret what I meant I think.

[Zinger2099]

I prefer izak, but he's V/LA, and eh.

Worst. Vote. Ever.

Seriously, voting someone for being V/LA? What the fuck.

[Zinger2099]

and tracker is very confirmable as the days go on (unlike what Zinger claimed).

That is not true. Jailkeeper can be easily confirmed (confirmable is not a word).

[Zinger2099]

@Junpei, I have noticed you have a tendency to over simplify and exaggerate people's posts to make them look bad. Scum points.

[David Xanatos]

Hoppster > Not sure what Hydra you're part of so I'll just address you by name instead of guessing.

1) Hostile third party, or Scum. And what I said wasn't "later", it was the same post, as I explained, I hit "post" instead of "preview".

2) Lying, and general attitude. I'm not going to touch the Meta that others claim to have with him.. that's their reasoning, I personally view the deception and subsequent flailing as very suspect.

Zinger > Uuh, Pinky didn't vote Izak. He very specifically avoided voting Izak because he's V/LA and therefore not here to defend himself, so he went for his other main suspect, you. Or at least that's how I'm picking it up.

[David Xanatos]

Also, not usually a prat like this, but you started it. Zinger, confirmable is a word. Adjective. Able to be confirmed.

[chkballin]

Super sorry, I'm at Ballin's house right now spending some time with her. We've been busy doing some RL things; fortunately, however, the promised post is coming within the next 24 hours. Guarantee it.

[andrew94]

@junpei: your reasoning for saying im scummy is : 'for being incoferant'. i triple explained the last point that you didnt get, and thats the only point that you didnt understand. how is that incoherant lol. sounds like your exaggerating badly
@junpei: part of your reasoning for chkballing being town is because he is an 'open hydra'. wut?
@junpei: for volkan, that reasoning is flawed. the last game i played with him he used the system and he was scum.

david and junpei looks suspicious posting walls one after the other.
@david: i have solid reads
@david: im not tunneling heavily on chkballing. i also have other suspects.

oversoul
leon
easjo
etc

[David Xanatos]

Zel1nk asked for my reads, I just copied/pasted from the notepad document I take notes in.

So what are these "solid reads"?

And can you explain your stance of each of those suspects?